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4 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Losing and not even playing fair ... tut tut

You won’t be doing the same in March, will you? :D 

 

 

At least Argentina have now busted their duck against the mighty All Blacks.

Italy?? It'll never happen this century...the closest they've got is the 0-0 Draw RWC2019 match cancelled because of Typhoon Hagibis. And they were lucky to get 0!!:Dimage.thumb.png.6a7a90de6eeceb251a536458cb9df4ea.png

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

Yes, quite light but I didn't see all the afternoon's sailing, can only comment on later in the day, when Britannia 2 was running a #1 jib and foiling around no problem. They look quite quick at times

Posted Images

23 minutes ago, Indio said:

ETNZ legal arguments in front of the Arbitration Panel have been amateurish at best

The competitors (including the Defender) are still being required to pay a $300K ACWS Auckland entry fee, right? What’s the perceived problem? 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The competitors (including the Defender) are still being required to pay a $300K ACWS Auckland entry fee, right? What’s the perceived problem? 

The cheap Pinot is cutting in earlier than usual..

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6 minutes ago, Indio said:

The cheap Pinot is cutting in earlier than usual..

Just thought you could summarize the problem you’re seeing.

The payment fees for the Dec 17-20 event is a curiousity, I posted a Q about that in the ACWS thread some days back and Nav posted a link that pertained. 

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On 11/16/2020 at 9:40 PM, mikenz2 said:

Not just chase an AC75, but "be" an AC75. They're the large chase boats to simulate AC75s and mock race against them (Luna Rossa do the same). So you're going to need all the help you can get to turn a big power boat on a dime like an AC75 does. 

Edit: Reminds me... LR uses the same motors on their large chase boat, I'll pay attention to the prop config they run next time I see them.

LR props:

 

1200145-03.jpeg

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I’m not at all convinced about getting imaging  of the rig off the water around the hull. 

More likely it has to do with minimizing the drag spike of tapping the surface. I would think that Defiant and Ineos 1 were designed under the assumption that you could always keep the hull on the air, but experience showed that you had to keep it as low as possible, and that meant hitting the water once and a while. So the skinny keel which gives a dit of life, but mostly is the minimum thing to touch the surface.

the other possibility is aerodynamic down force which enhances righting moment.  The pressure on the windward and leeward sides are different, and the keel may stop them from mixing.

The major advantage of sealing the sails to the deck has more to do with the aerodynamics of moving the center of pressure up and down the span.  This is what happens when they twist the mainsail.  With endplate ( thus no tip loss at the bottom end, the CE drops further faster.  The lower the CE the more power you can put through the rig without tipping over.  In conventional boats, this doesn’t seem to have such a profound effect, but at the apparent wind speeds these rigs see, it’# significant.

SHC

 

 

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

I disagree. The Longitudinal Moments are balanced by equalising Sail Driving Force vs (Boat Mass at the Stabilator (~20%) + Stabilator Lift/Down force).

 

They are, but as the wind increases, the righting moment cannot. So like any sailing vessel they then have to reduce the lateral force from sail (by easing main down traveller, flattening sails etc) or the boat will tip over. The lateral force does not actually increase after lift off, and thus neither does the vertical force the foil needs to support. 

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15 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey more grief for TNZ from the Herald.
 

America's Cup 2021: Team New Zealand could miss World Series regatta after missing deadline for entry fee payment of $435k 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12382982

CCDE9629-8D9E-4FFC-A262-69D9C0588BD7.thumb.jpeg.82f09ed7b19dd24384f0406a5d125f57.jpeg

Dang, what happens if they missed the deadline and (very unlikely) get DQ’d from AC36 for not participating in required ACWS events? The Prada Cup winner sails around for a few races starting March 6 uncontested? Lmao!

Dang there’s been a lot of money-related and relationship f’ups from ETNZ and ACE, wth? 

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19 minutes ago, weta27 said:

ETNZ says they paid it, LR says they didn't receive it.

A pattern is starting to emerge ...

How did LR not receive it in time? Yep, there’s problems for ETNZ in that direction too, yikes. 
 

There’s been a consistent management problem at both ACE and ETNZ, with finances. COVID-related? 

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4 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

I’m not at all convinced about getting imaging  of the rig off the water around the hull. 

More likely it has to do with minimizing the drag spike of tapping the surface. I would think that Defiant and Ineos 1 were designed under the assumption that you could always keep the hull on the air, but experience showed that you had to keep it as low as possible, and that meant hitting the water once and a while. So the skinny keel which gives a dit of life, but mostly is the minimum thing to touch the surface.

the other possibility is aerodynamic down force which enhances righting moment.  The pressure on the windward and leeward sides are different, and the keel may stop them from mixing.

The major advantage of sealing the sails to the deck has more to do with the aerodynamics of moving the center of pressure up and down the span.  This is what happens when they twist the mainsail.  With endplate ( thus no tip loss at the bottom end, the CE drops further faster.  The lower the CE the more power you can put through the rig without tipping over.  In conventional boats, this doesn’t seem to have such a profound effect, but at the apparent wind speeds these rigs see, it’# significant.

SHC

 

 

I agree.

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 "All teams must participate all preliminary events to qualify for the Prada Cup, the Challenger
Selection Series" 

I think ETNZ have found a loophole.
Why show your cards before the match? 

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12 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

 

 "All teams must participate all preliminary events to qualify for the Prada Cup, the Challenger
Selection Series" 

 

You are saying that the requirement to participate in all ACWS events does not also apply to the Defender? 

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8 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

I agree totally.  The UK design looks to be out to the edges of a design theory, but not one that seems to have continuity.  It looks like the assembly of a series of design optimizations of that are all put together without any real consideration of the synergies.  A lot of sharpe edges.

And just look at this picture.  They are sailing as low as they can with the minimal amount of foil in the water (you can see the tip and the foil attachment out of the water), but they are still quite high off the water.  And the hull is tilting windward (if they were flat it would be even farther fro the water), doesn't that tilt defeat some of the purpose of having a "flat" keel?  Isn't the keel now more of V shape in relationship to the water?  I know, it is just one picture and the boats are constantly moving.  And they wider keel allows them to ride slightly high and still get the same end platting effect as the v blade keels of AM and LR.  Just my guess as I ramble on....

image.png.819cd5d37592a338560adac540ae3c34.png

Here is a recent pics of AM Patriot at similar heights and angle.... never mind.

Obviously, I was wrong on my assumptions.

image.png.d7ca8a380007f3b301b3728986355071.png

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4 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

They are, but as the wind increases, the righting moment cannot. So like any sailing vessel they then have to reduce the lateral force from sail (by easing main down traveller, flattening sails etc) or the boat will tip over. The lateral force does not actually increase after lift off, and thus neither does the vertical force the foil needs to support. 

Sorry, but have to disagree again. In the transverse plane, the Moments (RM) pivot about the CoE of the foil. In relation to that, the stabilator also contributes to a force acting against the sideways force of the sails, ie, assisting the RM.

As speed increases, so does downforce provided by the stabilator as crew increase the rudder rake for longitudinal balance - which at the same time increases RM.

The tricky part is to get all the forces balanced at the same time!

image.png.55a5f90da6a14206ec01daa6b9d637ef.png

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8 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

(1) I'm still not quite convinced about the hull/water end plating, even if I am probably wrong. At the air-water interface, the air is hardly moving, and until I see some actual airflow diagrams, I will probably remain stubbornly skeptical.

5 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

I’m not at all convinced about getting imaging  of the rig off the water around the hull.

Looks like I'm not the only one that queries all the "end plating" stuff.

 

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41 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Seems to me that the first sentence applies to all competitors. The rest to only the Challengers? 
 

6EA00C18-C38E-4A51-8C87-02286FDED492.thumb.jpeg.2f3886a7baca72bb322ddaba3e4fff3f.jpeg

Nobody has competed in the ACWS to date. Best everyone pack-up and go home. Nobody is eligible to compete in the Christmas Cup.

 

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10 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Nobody has competed in the ACWS to date. Best everyone pack-up and go home. Nobody is eligible to compete in the Christmas Cup.

 

Attendance in ACWS events that get held is compulsory. That requires paying the entry fee on time. This late (forgotten?) payment, or legally missed-payment for being too late is a bit strange. Only ETNZ is not listed as having entered on time for this all-competitors compulsory ACWS event. 
 

Maybe their rules lawyer Russel knows more than what LR’s rules lawyer Alessandro has notified? 

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

The tricky part is to get all the forces balanced at the same time!

The boat has mass so you can get away with only balancing all the forces on average.  Better to have a way to adjust for the imbalances than to hit perfect balance for an instant.

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51 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Attendance in ACWS events that get held is compulsory. That requires paying the entry fee on time. This late (forgotten?) payment, or legally missed-payment for being too late is a bit strange. Only ETNZ is not listed as having entered on time for this all-competitors compulsory ACWS event. 
 

Maybe their rules lawyer Russel knows more than what LR’s rules lawyer Alessandro has notified? 

Another storm in a teacup...

 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Another ploy to try and throw ETNZ off their game lol. LR seems hell bent on getting the Kiwi's attention. At the end of the day, LR needs to worry about beating the other challengers before they can start thinking about ETNZ.

No. Warren Jones owned the Yanks off the water in '83.

LR (smartly) playing a long game 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Attendance in ACWS events that get held is compulsory. That requires paying the entry fee on time. This late (forgotten?) payment, or legally missed-payment for being too late is a bit strange. Only ETNZ is not listed as having entered on time for this all-competitors compulsory ACWS event. 
 

Maybe their rules lawyer Russel knows more than what LR’s rules lawyer Alessandro has notified? 

This issue went to arbitration recently with NYYC  asking for relief from paying the fee.  ETNZ supported them.

The COR argued otherwise.

The arbitration decision was that all teams needed to pay the COR within 7 days I.e. 13 November.

ETNZ was about 4 days late.

So it wasn't exactly an old rule.

ACAP36 13.pdf

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13 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Seems to me that the first sentence applies to all competitors. The rest to only the Challengers? 
 

6EA00C18-C38E-4A51-8C87-02286FDED492.thumb.jpeg.2f3886a7baca72bb322ddaba3e4fff3f.jpeg

Agreed, so therefore the punishment is down to the arbitration panel:

Quote

53:10 Where no penalty is specifically provided for a breach of any of the provisions of this
Protocol, the Conditions, the Deed of Gift or previous decisions of the Arbitration Panel, the
Panel shall determine and impose such penalty as it considers appropriate having regard to
the nature and manner of the particular

 

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On 11/17/2020 at 3:37 AM, Priscilla said:

Seagulls are very clever. They learn, remember and even pass on behaviours, such as stamping their feet in a group to imitate rainfall and trick earthworms to come to the surface.

Maybe they could trick TNZ into a early B2 reveal as all this waiting not good.

Maybe if we put a bunch of sheep outside the big barn doors, they'll all come running out and we'll get a peek inside.

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Auckland ACWS and the Christmas Race are two different things, held in the same period of time. There's no fee for the Christmas Race. If you are a Challenger and you don't pay the fee for the Auckland ACWS it's game over, you can't partecipate at the Prada Cup. But that's no problem for ETNZ of course. So if they didn't pay the fee in time, they won't partecipate at the Auckland ACWS, but they could still partecipate at the Christmas Race I think. Unless CoR states differently. They're in charge of all the ACWS (Portsmouth excluded) so maybe they can throw away ETNZ from the Christmas Cup too. 

 

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26 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

IMG_20201119_064527_577.jpg

1200258-01-01.jpeg

Wow... That's something! 

Bottom looks like a merge of pelican Patriot and wide keel of Brittania... 

Then it extends all the way aft like in Britannia and LR2. 

The topside deck treatment is quite 'organic' looking. 

I'm guessing they will call it Te Whale... 

Judging by the appearance of foil arm axis bulbs against hull side wall, they must be be quite narrow beam at the section? 

Screenshot_20201118-181424.thumb.jpg.a38943a3032d77e25ab3e208266ca84b.jpg

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4 minutes ago, NZK said:

Ooh this just got interesting. 

Gonna say it - in my book this is slinging against INEOS at the bottom of the 'looks' pile...

@mikenz2 solid efforts with the photos, appreciate the efforts you (and @weta27) go to to fuel this shit fight of a forum.

 

It's for sure better than UK B1 at least?

 

I thought NZ B1 was just gorgeous, this at least is definitely different.  Quite extreme in hull dimensions, and seems to have similarities with other boats most unique features. 

 

Most interesting to see how developed the keel is on this one.  Guessing Te Kahu was not at all representative of their design direction after all, at least as far as the bottom goes. 

 

Hoping it looks better from other angles

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2 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

Wow... That's something! 

Bottom looks like a merge of pelican Patriot and wide keel of Brittania... 

Then it extends all the way aft like in Britannia and LR2. 

The topside deck treatment is quite 'organic' looking. 

I'm guessing they will call it Te Whale... 

The bow looks better than the profile.

Given how you can see other teams boats all over this one.... Te Committee? 

I bet it'll be fast at least!

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Just now, enigmatically2 said:

I thought if boats are ugly they are slow? That's what the kiwi experts said when GB1 came out

1. It wasn't just some kiwi fans who thought GB1 was ugly.

2. It was slow.

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1 minute ago, RMac said:

It's for sure better than UK B1 at least?

This a low bar to set, but yes. 

This thing is, interesting. The similarities to each of the challenger boats is going to create some spirited discussion here...

 

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I thought if boats are ugly they are slow? That's what the kiwi experts said when GB1 came out

GB1 was in the running for ugliest boat of all time, and while we don't know particulars it sure seemed unfast as far as sailing went

We only have 2 shots of this, but it's safe to say in profile it is by no means pretty, and especially so in comparison to the NZ B1.  

UK B1 had some excuse to be both ugliest boat of all time, and slow, as it was a first try with a condensed timeline.  I have more faith in NZ to get an ugly boat fast than just about anyone else. 

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1200380-02.thumb.jpeg.8069e006695e7a8b7106809cab1e8e5d.jpeg.ff9b29ebff41a1dba0136cac72d32ffd.jpeg

It's almost as if the skeg has a lip when zooming again. Very complicated shapes round the foil arms. The ski/skeg goes all the way back, further than LR, rudder is mounted on it I think.  Clear convergence with INEOS Britannia 2 regarding skeg approach. Very surprised about the slab sides, but they know much better than me. 

 

edit: I did this in under 6 minutes. Remember that accuracy that incurs. Someone will do better.

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2 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Allowing for covid-19, looks like the grinders are social distancing in holes inside the hull. I don't know where you drive this thing from, yet!

 

1200460-01.jpeg

1200455-01.jpeg

Ah, so the crew are wrapped up, explaining the high topsides. A wheel in each pod perhaps? Looks like they’re a step ahead on windage again, or perhaps a recycled AC50 to cut costs?

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3 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Allowing for covid-19, looks like the grinders are social distancing in holes inside the hull. I don't know where you drive this thing from, yet!

 

1200460-01.jpeg

1200455-01.jpeg

That is quite the tunnel!  This thing almost looks like a catamaran but with the hulls connected by some full keeled cruising yacht

 

I think they saw a lot to like about Ineos's aero of all boats 

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3 minutes ago, RMac said:

I think they saw a lot to like about Ineos's aero of all boat

Agreed, at first glance they came nearest to the solution that Ineos did. 
 

Complicated livery but it looks really f’ing sweet! 

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12 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Ah, so the crew are wrapped up, explaining the high topsides. A wheel in each pod perhaps? Looks like they’re a step ahead on windage again, or perhaps a recycled AC50 to cut costs?

Geez that is actually a smart solution! 

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Just now, kiwi39 said:

Like the low windage offered by cyclors over grinders AC35 .... the other benefits of cyclors notwithstanding, this was seen as a major performance gain. 

Good aero but they are in an excellent position for visibility being able to see what is going on and wind on the water. Seems a small thing but at the right moment could mean winning or losing at that critical moment 

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53 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

IMG_20201119_064527_577.jpg

1200258-01-01.jpeg

Fucking hell, talk about throw the ball and see how far you can catch it. It'll either be magnificent or a DOG, and they have to sail B1. My guess is magnificent.

 

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ah well  once I stopped laughing..maybe the kiwi ball when it got thrown ended up somewhere near the Ineos one..

 

do like the integrated cockpit arrangement, that's going to be a seriously low boom/end plate,

given the massive changes from B1 can we assume its safe that its going to take ages to learn to sail a totally different concept, or that B1 was really wrong given the amount of changes to B2. I am of course joking but fuck its funny seeing where they ended given how derided the concepts of other boats were, yet features have have now appeared here , guess that's convergence  of design. 

 

its gonna be a shit fight that for sure!

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9 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I'm struggling to think of 3 things kiwis have slagged off more over the last 6 months

You seem quite obsessed with the collective 'kiwis'... and with lumping them altogether with whatever negative connation you are espousing at the time...

Do you do this with other nations/ethnic/racial groups too?

I trust you aren't boycotting Sainsbury's atm...

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10 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

At least we got the bow shape the right way up :D

just a thought on the deck height, it could well be the same as it always was/is but the crew pods could just be higher? INEOS B1 the top of the crew sides were very high, could it be that they have raised that section rather than lowering the deck. sail end plate section?

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15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Could it have a floor-sweeping ‘boom’? 

There's something funky going on with the mast/boom/boomless attachment. But I'm off to an appointment so you'll going to have to wait for photos :-) And I see she's back in the shed again.

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24 minutes ago, RMac said:

That is quite the tunnel!  This thing almost looks like a catamaran but with the hulls connected by some full keeled cruising yacht

 

I think they saw a lot to like about Ineos's aero of all boats 

Team NZ have big cojones and big ideas... 

Time will tell if it's going to work, but going by recent history it probably will.. 

They would have deviated so much from boat 1 if they didn't find big gains with this rather brave interpretation... 

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