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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

Yes, quite light but I didn't see all the afternoon's sailing, can only comment on later in the day, when Britannia 2 was running a #1 jib and foiling around no problem. They look quite quick at times

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

Posted Images

12 hours ago, Apterix said:

It looks like a beast and is remarkably well dialled in for the first day on the water.  Not feeling quite so glum about initial impressions now.  

That first run looks bloody quick at a glance. 

Has anyone done a speed calc on her? 

12 hours ago, Apterix said:

It looks like a beast and is remarkably well dialled in for the first day on the water.  Not feeling quite so glum about initial impressions now. 

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16 minutes ago, D_Dog said:

That first run looks bloody quick at a glance. 

Has anyone done a speed calc on her? 

The video released last night had several drone shots, some of which were keeping up. Looking at the drone on launch night and speed capability, there are very few commercial drones that can reach 50 knots. I'm picking they held back yesterday which is fair enough for day one!

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Looking closer at the First sail video from airflownNZ:

Here are some speed calculations:

image.png.23785f50022fdee776f9da76dab8ca66.png

It is nice to see them up and foiling the first day, a lot of kinks to work out.

at about 1:40 and on you can see some flutter in the jib.  I took capture a slowed down version:

 

Add you can see the wrinkles on the other side after they turned:

195727114_ScreenShot2020-11-20at4_32_07PM.png.ff1133aa68686a5dd16b1ad893477dd9.png

Also, on every turn it looks like a fire drill with two crew members crossing before the turn and a third crossing back after the turn.  All in front of the mast.

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

There are helmsman controls on both side of the boat because they have three people crossing on every turn.  It may not be a wheel.

I'm picking joystick steering control.

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10 minutes ago, Indio said:

I'm picking joystick steering control.

Seems to me out of all the things the Cup traditionalists would find to be distasteful about these boats, having a joystick for steering would piss them off the most lol.

Edit:

It could actually be a regular rc transmitter like an frsky Taranis or something similar. They could have pitch and roll on one stick and rudder on the other and one person could control foil angles and steering with one device. If you hooked sail trim up to throttle then one person could control it all.

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11 minutes ago, JustinL42 said:

Seems to me out of all the things the Cup traditionalists would find to be distasteful about these boats, having a joystick for steering would piss them off the most lol.

Yet joystick control will deliver the immediate response from the rudder which I imagine is an absolute necessity in the instant-response environment of these monsters. They could also have toggle switching on top of the joystick to activate other inter-dependent functions - like foil flap control.

It also, coincidentally, will be the most time-consuming and inconvenient for the competitors to try to retrofit to replace their wheels:)

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that Burling would enjoy even more freedom if he had a remote-control wireless Joystick controller he carries with him when he moves from port to s/board. Now wouldn't that be something...:P

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

I called it early that wheels wouldn’t feature, so let’s see, was right with the deck height thing so fingers crossed lol 

Quote

12 minutes ago, Indio said:

Yet joystick control will deliver the immediate response from the rudder which I imagine is an absolute necessity in the instant-response environment of these monsters. They could also have toggle switching on top of the joystick to activate other inter-dependent functions - like foil flap control.

It also, coincidentally, will be the most time-consuming and inconvenient for the competitors to try to retrofit to replace their wheels:)

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that Burling would enjoy even more freedom if he had a remote-control wireless Joystick controller he carries with him when he moves from port to s/board. Now wouldn't that be something

 

Regret shooting down your pindaric flight - but have a look at 16.8

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9 minutes ago, Indio said:

Yet joystick control will deliver the immediate response from the rudder which I imagine is an absolute necessity in the instant-response environment of these monsters. They could also have toggle switching on top of the joystick to activate other inter-dependent functions - like foil flap control.

It also, coincidentally, will be the most time-consuming and inconvenient for the competitors to try to retrofit to replace their wheels:)

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that Burling would enjoy even more freedom if he had a remote-control wireless Joystick controller he carries with him when he moves from port to s/board. Now wouldn't that be something...:P

You could do it all with this.

PXL_20201024_053216800.jpg

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17 minutes ago, weta27 said:

You can't see obvious ridges like in the jib, and no pockets.

DSC_1714.JPG

batten1.jpg

Pockets could be between the skins and offset vertically, glued on to eliminate stitching for a smoother finish

The leech ribbons are in pairs, a photo of this area might give more detail

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

It doesn't even have to be that bulky :) - although it will need to be if he was lounging in an armchair at the bar ashore..

They make smaller ones but there is something to be said for having a nice grip. That just happens to be mine.

Might want to make sure the controller is larger than any deck opening that leads into the bilge. It would suck to crash and lose the race because the controller fell below deck lol.

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19 minutes ago, weta27 said:

boom1.jpg

Note top rudder bearing area

The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

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5 minutes ago, JustinL42 said:

They make smaller ones but there is something to be said for having a nice grip. That just happens to be mine.

Might want to make sure the controller is larger than any deck opening that leads into the bilge. It would suck to crash and lose the race because the controller fell below deck lol.

True!! But Burling's offsiders Tuke and Gashby can each carry a spare one that activates automatically when the first one goes swimming:)

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20 minutes ago, gungabow said:

Note top rudder bearing area

 The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

 Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

 The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

That's tricky!

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34 minutes ago, gungabow said:

Note top rudder bearing area

The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

Well spotted! :)  Another point @weta27 could focus on, this would keep @MaxHugen (and me :) ) happy

 

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5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So, I think we can all agree, it was NOT a "Patch" 

I never said it was a patch. I said it looked like one. In fact I was asking what people thought it was. And its certainly not a fucking reflection is it. 

"reflectiongate" is hereby concluded.

 

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6 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

I never said it was a patch. I said it looked like one. In fact I was asking what people thought it was. And its certainly not a fucking reflection is it. 

"reflectiongate" is hereby concluded.

 

Its nothing. Nothing at all, thats what everyone's been trying to say.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Its nothing. Nothing at all, thats what everyone's been trying to say.

Oh FFS there is. It's a minute deformation of some kind due to the traveller that shows up because of the insane gloss polish. Perhaps extra strengthening inside the hull, perhaps it is a fucking patch after all that was part of the plan to begin with in order to install part of the traveller. Perhaps that's where they put the training wheels on.

But there is certainly something there, not a damn reflection. And even a reflection isn't "nothing at all" now is it. Fucking brilliant.

 

 

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Just now, zillafreak said:

Oh FFS there is. It's a minute deformation of some kind due to the traveller that shows up because of the insane gloss polish. Perhaps extra strengthening inside the hull, perhaps it is a fucking patch after all that was part of the plan to begin with in order to install part of the traveller. Perhaps that's where they put the training wheels on.

But there is certainly something there, not a damn reflection. And even a reflection isn't "nothing at all" now is it. Fucking brilliant.

 

 

A trick of light and image. Something that shows up only from a certain angle of light, and not from another... like a shadow. 

S4DGU34LQ6ULUR347AL323MYZU.jpg

Nothing here...

Screen-Shot-2020-11-20-at-8.24.56-PM-sca

Nothing here...

tnz-ac75-te-rehutai-first-sail-b.jpg?fit

Nothing here...

america_s-cup-racer-te-rehutai-launches-

Nothing here...

AC75_ANZ_ETNZ_Launch_Skeg_Stern2_1911202

And nothing here

There's nothing.

Nothing.

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10 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

A trick of light and image. Something that shows up only from a certain angle of light, and not from another... like a shadow. 

S4DGU34LQ6ULUR347AL323MYZU.jpg

Nothing here...

Screen-Shot-2020-11-20-at-8.24.56-PM-sca

Nothing here...

tnz-ac75-te-rehutai-first-sail-b.jpg?fit

Nothing here...

america_s-cup-racer-te-rehutai-launches-

Nothing here...

AC75_ANZ_ETNZ_Launch_Skeg_Stern2_1911202

And nothing here

There's nothing.

Nothing.

I think you'll find that the red swirls actually move faster than the black ones.

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

I'm picking joystick steering control.

I've done a fair bit of driving boats on sticks and it isn't pretty. It doesn't have feel for rate of change, and extremes of position like a wheel does. I fly a racing drone with a stick, and it's all about rate of change, but you can do a barrel roll or loop with a drone, but not a drone.

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6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure looks like PB crossing shortly after tacks in the Airflow vid, but: Has anyone spotted yet that there are for a fact wheels on both sides? 

I think we’re seeing Pete and Glenn crossing to windward then Blair crossing back.

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8 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I think we’re seeing Pete and Glenn crossing to windward then Blair crossing back.

Thanks, missed that so far. 
 

similar, at https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/11/america-s-cup-team-new-zealand-opt-for-two-helmsman-with-new-boat.html

Kiwi sailing legend Brad Butterworth predicts Team New Zealand will opt for two helmsmen, when they defend the America's Cup in March 2021.

Team New Zealand's second boat is radically different from their first and came as a bit of a shock to onlookers, but Butterworth thinks the biggest shock is yet to come.

"The new boat looks like they might have two helmsmen, where they'll have dedicated helmsmen on side to side, which is something Luna Rossa are doing at the moment," he says. 

 

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39 minutes ago, barfy said:

I've done a fair bit of driving boats on sticks and it isn't pretty. It doesn't have feel for rate of change, and extremes of position like a wheel does. I fly a racing drone with a stick, and it's all about rate of change, but you can do a barrel roll or loop with a drone, but not a drone.

You'd find it hard to drive that flying saucer with a wheel!

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

A trick of light and image. Something that shows up only from a certain angle of light, and not from another... like a shadow. 

 

Nothing here...

 

Nothing here...

 

Nothing here...

 

Nothing here...

 

And nothing here

There's nothing.

Nothing.

Agreed, you cannot see it on every angle. But on some you can. Thats the part you need to explain. All of the below taken at different time points throughout the video.

And weta27, much respect. Perhaps when not taking awesome pics and videos you can keep an eye out for the mystery spot ;)  Looks like lighting and angle is the key for this ghost.

 

2026136838_ScreenShot2020-11-20at7_14_28PM.png.bd62c2c6d823eff58055411844df08ef.png985875417_ScreenShot2020-11-20at7_06_52PM.png.d87fea581273d0bac39557e6704895b4.png1024159784_ScreenShot2020-11-20at7_08_37PM.png.4e3f6f12ff942736879f6819cc7673c4.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-20 at 7.14.16 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-20 at 7.11.08 PM.png

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18 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Thanks, missed that so far. 
 

similar, at https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/11/america-s-cup-team-new-zealand-opt-for-two-helmsman-with-new-boat.html

Kiwi sailing legend Brad Butterworth predicts Team New Zealand will opt for two helmsmen, when they defend the America's Cup in March 2021.

Team New Zealand's second boat is radically different from their first and came as a bit of a shock to onlookers, but Butterworth thinks the biggest shock is yet to come.

"The new boat looks like they might have two helmsmen, where they'll have dedicated helmsmen on side to side, which is something Luna Rossa are doing at the moment," he says. 

 

BB is a bullshit artist. Just hot air out of his arse. ETNZ will do what they do. BB doesn’t have a clue what to expect.

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1 minute ago, zillafreak said:

Agreed, you cannot see it on every angle. But on some you can. Thats the part you need to explain. All of the below taken at different time points throughout the video.

And weta27, much respect. Perhaps when not taking awesome pics and videos you can keep an eye out for the mystery spot ;)  Looks like lighting and angle is the key for this ghost.

 

2026136838_ScreenShot2020-11-20at7_14_28PM.png.bd62c2c6d823eff58055411844df08ef.png985875417_ScreenShot2020-11-20at7_06_52PM.png.d87fea581273d0bac39557e6704895b4.png1024159784_ScreenShot2020-11-20at7_08_37PM.png.4e3f6f12ff942736879f6819cc7673c4.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-20 at 7.14.16 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-11-20 at 7.11.08 PM.png

We can get a detailed photo of the surface of the moon, but this is our best technology from a few hundred meters away on earth?

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1 minute ago, Afrayedknot said:

We can get a detailed photo of the surface of the moon, but this is our best technology from a few hundred meters away on earth?

Yes but the moon is not trying to trick other moons into thinking its not a moon at all..

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On 11/19/2020 at 10:51 AM, Stingray~ said:

 

OK kids. How about a little fun! Why dont you tell daddy what you see at the back of the boat on the hull by the traveller at these exact times. Blow it up full screen!

1:35 to 1:41

1:48 to 1:52

2:00

3:50 to 3:53

4:47 to 4:50

Is Daddy seeing things? Too much tequila? (or vodka or bourbon or wine, depending) Are there ghosts on the boat? A Russian projector beaming fake news in the video? "absolutely nothing"? Just asking

Curious minds want to know :)

 

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2 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

OK kids. How about a little fun! Why dont you tell daddy what you see at the back of the boat on the hull by the traveller at these exact times. Blow it up full screen!

1:35 to 1:41

1:48 to 1:52

2:00

3:50 to 3:53

4:47 to 4:50

Is Daddy seeing things? Too much tequila? (or vodka or bourbon or wine, depending) Are there ghosts on the boat? A Russian projector beaming fake news in the video? "absolutely nothing"? Just asking

Curious minds want to know :)

 

I've got it worked out.  It a hologram of the America's Cup and the closest the Challengers will get to holding it!

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2 minutes ago, Mudz said:

Think they just need to sack their wrap techies. It’s just a poor vinyl job. 

In fact, who’s to say there is any structure behind it? Could be just vinyl blowing in the wind?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStcYVxifUAUjVRPhJNmgp

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

I've done a fair bit of driving boats on sticks and it isn't pretty. It doesn't have feel for rate of change, and extremes of position like a wheel does. I fly a racing drone with a stick, and it's all about rate of change, but you can do a barrel roll or loop with a drone, but not a drone.

We are used to FC's with rc rate and super rates though. If you just used rc rate it gets pretty linear (Obviously I don't think they use betaflight but whatever their flight control software I'm sure it's equally if not more configurable). I agree though it would suck if your thumb slipped off the sticks. Might have to pinch lol! Glad to see another fpv pilot into sailing also.

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Just now, zillafreak said:

Weta watch the video sequences and tell me what you think. You were probably there

The video you quoted is shorter than any of the time stamps you listed so that's gonna be hard to do. The whole video was 1:36 long.

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5 hours ago, gungabow said:

Note top rudder bearing area

The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

Oh, but don't draw too many conclusions because folk will say it's just the wind moving the rudder shaft to and fro.

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

BB is a bullshit artist. Just hot air out of his arse. ETNZ will do what they do. BB doesn’t have a clue what to expect.

Don't contradict spewbot in his newfound love of butterballs..he's found someone to get behind in his "fun" pursuit of denigrating the team that smashed his oracle.

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1 hour ago, JustinL42 said:

We are used to FC's with rc rate and super rates though. If you just used rc rate it gets pretty linear (Obviously I don't think they use betaflight but whatever their flight control software I'm sure it's equally if not more configurable). I agree though it would suck if your thumb slipped off the sticks. Might have to pinch lol! Glad to see another fpv pilot into sailing also.

I think the big difference is quick feedback of where you are with a wheel. You give the wheel a quick 90 degree..you tweak back and forth to get the rate of turn you want. Then you spin your hands  back to neutral. With the stick there isn't the same feedback. 

Or maybe there is? Let go of the stick and rate of turn snaps back to neutral. Many more possibilities for applying curves to responses.

Hmmm

Edit: of course you would have to learn to pinch:)

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17 minutes ago, barfy said:

I think the big difference is quick feedback of where you are with a wheel. You give the wheel a quick 90 degree..you tweak back and forth to get the rate of turn you want. Then you spin your hands  back to neutral. With the stick there isn't the same feedback. 

Or maybe there is? Let go of the stick and rate of turn snaps back to neutral. Many more possibilities for applying curves to responses.

Hmmm

Edit: of course you would have to learn to pinch:)

I have an old Marblehead Rc boat that I got in New Zealand when I was 13. Uses an old futaba with two sticks. I keep wanting to put a camera on it and sail it fpv. I think I'd have to have a head tracker so I could look at sail trim and look around a bit. I agree though it definitely wouldn't have the tactile feel of a wheel but then again I don't know what the wheel of one of these things would feel like anyway. It's a bit far from the cruising boat I grew up steering!

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6 hours ago, gungabow said:

Note top rudder bearing area

The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

What a load of bullshit. The other boats can and do change their rudder angles. This is about as basic as it gets. Nobody would be as stupid to build a serious foiler of any kind without being able to adjust that rudder angle, unless it was banned in whatever class rules apply (which it was for the AC72's). This has been known for at least 10 years. You might as well not bother building a boat if you don't have it, because it is such a major component. Although it was some time ago, one of the Ineos pictures even showed the labelling of the rudder rake control.

As for the ETNZ solution, the slots on the rudder gantry aren't as aero as the way the other teams have done it, but it looks like the bearings would be easier to service.

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Thanks, missed that so far. 
 

similar, at https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/11/america-s-cup-team-new-zealand-opt-for-two-helmsman-with-new-boat.html

Kiwi sailing legend Brad Butterworth predicts Team New Zealand will opt for two helmsmen, when they defend the America's Cup in March 2021.

Team New Zealand's second boat is radically different from their first and came as a bit of a shock to onlookers, but Butterworth thinks the biggest shock is yet to come.

"The new boat looks like they might have two helmsmen, where they'll have dedicated helmsmen on side to side, which is something Luna Rossa are doing at the moment," he says. 

 

It’s pretty clear when you watch the video from the first day, two people go one way then one goes the other after every tack and gybe.

Brad is stuck in this is what we’re doing so it must be right mode.

does everyone remember when Artemis were going to have all their crew on a central pod on the AC72 because it would take to long to run from one side to the other....

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