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Nato leaders laughing at Trump


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I will offer it is regrettable they did this, as well as it being caught on camera.  I would imagine a few of them might feel a little sheepish, today.

But, given the coarse language and behavior of President Trump, his reaction is pathetic.  He can dish it out, but he cannot take it.  

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3 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

I will offer it is regrettable they did this, as well as it being caught on camera.  I would imagine a few of them might feel a little sheepish, today.

But, given the coarse language and behavior of President Trump, his reaction is pathetic.  He can dish it out, but he cannot take it.  

Not regrettable at all.  It is proof Trump is the laughing stock of the world.  Fuck Trump.

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44 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Not regrettable at all.  It is proof Trump is the laughing stock of the world.  Fuck Trump.

in a way though they are laughing at the mercan 40 per cent and the way they have taken control of the system

they are laughing at America

and that would have made my dad very sad - he admired you blokes and your military

 

D

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14 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

in a way though they are laughing at the mercan 40 per cent and the way they have taken control of the system

they are laughing at America

and that would have made my dad very sad - he admired you blokes and your military

 

D

From that perspective, true, it’s regrettable.  But I’m stoked the mockery is finally out in the open.  

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:
4 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

I will offer it is regrettable they did this, as well as it being caught on camera.  I would imagine a few of them might feel a little sheepish, today.

But, given the coarse language and behavior of President Trump, his reaction is pathetic.  He can dish it out, but he cannot take it.  

Not regrettable at all.  It is proof Trump is the laughing stock of the world.  Fuck Trump.

I understand your perspective.  But, I disagree in that their behavior was down near his level.  Hard to decry boorish behavior, when you do it yourself.

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1 minute ago, Bus Driver said:

I understand your perspective.  But, I disagree in that their behavior was down near his level.  Hard to decry boorish behavior, when you do it yourself.

Is speaking openly and truthfully about someone’s idiotic behavior boorish or simply speaking the truth?

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1 minute ago, Swimsailor said:

Is speaking openly and truthfully about someone’s idiotic behavior boorish or simply speaking the truth?

Is it becoming of a leader to mock other leaders in public?  I would say "no".

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36 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Mad King Donald should be mocked by anyone at any time.

Friend of mine had a great line.  Not specifically about Trump but it sure fits:”You invite abuse.  It would be impolite not to give it to you.”

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Is it becoming of a leader to mock other leaders in public?  I would say "no".

Trump being the exception which proves the rule?

Trump is a disgrace. His regular persistent mocking and denigration of anyone who doesn’t support him is deliberately put on public record. Often in writing.

The NATO leaders were having a private off the record conversation amongst themselves, which was overheard/ recorded presumably without their knowledge or permission. And they were right, not lying like Trump.

No comparison.

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Not regrettable at all.  It is proof Trump is the laughing stock of the world.  Fuck Trump.

Just what I thought watching the video.  America has to realize the fallout from allowing such an incompetent to represent us on the global stage. 

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4 hours ago, Happy said:

Easy for them to laugh. They don't have to live in Trump's America.

You never heard the expression "no man is an island" I take it?

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2 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

I understand your perspective.  But, I disagree in that their behavior was down near his level.  Hard to decry boorish behavior, when you do it yourself.

The shitstain is having a serious negative effect on the entire world.

People are losing their jobs and homes because of him.

Families are being torn apart because of him.

People are dying because of him.

And you worry that someone might be impolite by speaking the truth about him?

He's taken it way beyond the fallback "Respect for the Office" stage.

He needs to be publicly called out for every single lie, stupidity, scurrilous statement - basically every word he speaks.

It should be non-stop - there's certainly no shortage of material.

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4 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Is it becoming of a leader to mock other leaders in public?  I would say "no".

Tell that to Trump.

 He gets as good as he serves.

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Donnie May have to call in some comedy/insult writers to come up with proper tweet responses.

Paging, Don Rickles, paging Don Rickles.  Mr. Rickles please pick up the oh so white phone

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While I understand what you are all saying, you can't come back later and bitch that the level of discourse among other leaders is beneath them.

You just get to accept they allowed themselves to go down toward his level.  They aren't as bad as he is, but they can't pretend to be far above him.

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37 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:
4 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Is it becoming of a leader to mock other leaders in public?  I would say "no".

Tell that to Trump.

 He gets as good as he serves.

I agree with BD

One of the greatest assets a leader has is the dignity of his position. Great leaders sometimes joke around and don't give this away, but making snarky schoolboy jokes behind another person's back is not how it's done.

- DSK

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LOL.

Leaders...?

ya, sure they are.

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8 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I did not hear mockery in that  clip. I heard frustrated people describing the boorish behavior of another. 

mockery looks like this 

4243E2C0-AC74-40CA-990E-1CD4802174EF.jpeg

Have you ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" ??

It's a very similar moral issue to torture. You don't get a pass because the other guy did it first.

 

Just now, Keith said:

LOL.

Leaders...?

ya, sure they are.

can't argue with that... unfortunately

They are the ones sitting in the big fancy chairs though

- DSK

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I'm no fan of Trudeau, but I think all he did here was tell the others it was amusing to see Trump's own handlers frustrated with Trump. I think Trump just dislikes Trudeau because they both claim to be six foot three. 

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Yes, it truly shows the complete lack of quality people to choose from, to elect.

 

image.png.88f166f78cba26cfd474d5b1b948ae73.png

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59 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

While I understand what you are all saying, you can't come back later and bitch that the level of discourse among other leaders is beneath them.

You just get to accept they allowed themselves to go down toward his level.  They aren't as bad as he is, but they can't pretend to be far above him.

What you say is true but——a gentleman’s agreement breaks down when you deal with thugs.

Or, don’t bring a knife to a gunfight

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9 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I'm no fan of Trudeau, but I think all he did here was tell the others it was amusing to see Trump's own handlers frustrated with Trump. I think Trump just dislikes Trudeau because they both claim to be six foot three. 

Joe can speak two languages fluently while Trump is almost inarticulate in one.

Joe is good looking while Trump is ridiculous looking.

Joe is married to his first wife while Trump is on his third trophy.

Joe has some respect from foreign leaders while Trump is laughed at by them.

Trump wants to fuck Ivanka but Ivanka wants to fuck Joe

Yeah, of course he dislikes him

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42 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I'm no fan of Trudeau, but I think all he did here was tell the others it was amusing to see Trump's own handlers frustrated with Trump. I think Trump just dislikes Trudeau because they both claim to be six foot three. 

Trump dislikes Trudeau because he's a hate-filled bag of childish spite and bile.

It certainly didn't help to listen Ivanka prattle all the way home about HOT! Trudeau is

- DSK

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It's kind of scary that there's recording devices that can capture that allowed in there.

Trump is a buffoon, and only an blind deaf idiot can respect him, but even leaders are human, and 

blowing off a little steam with peers is pretty normal I think.

It's a failure of security to allow this to be taken.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It was a phone wasn't it?

Gonna take them away from everyone in one of those meetings?

Who recorded it? Are they known?

One pool reporter is allowed in, everything they get is to be shared with all news outlets, and in this case i think they said it was NBC. ABC, one of the American channel's

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4 minutes ago, saxdog said:

They're not laughing at Trump. They are laughing at America. The US has reached absolute Camacho.

They're laughing at Trump - and the idiots and fools who support him.

They sympathize with the sane people in America who have to live through this nightmare.

That applies to all of us furriners, trust me.

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This marks a turning point.  The leaders of other NATO countries are no longer deferring to the President of the USA as the de facto leader of NATO.  America is becoming irrelevant - the other countries are beginning to go it alone (or more accurately, together- without the US as the leader).

NATO was established to extend USA influence.  Other Presidents knew that it costs money to gain such influence.  Trump is such a fool that he only looks at the dollars and begrudges the cost of the influence.  So, he demands everyone else "pay their share" - but that's not the deal.  America gained influence through paying the lion's share.  Drop that aspect and the influence evaporates.  That's what we are seeing here.  The world order truly is changing.

When America is just another member with no more influence than, say Turkey, Trump will stamp his feet and walk out of NATO as well.  He wants to sit at the head of the table, but doesn't want to pay anything for the privilege (and certainly hasn't earned it as a right).  He just thinks he's entitled, because after all, he was chosen by God.

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This is maybe even more scary . . . 

loss of faculties (from Kos) 

Q:  Sir — Mr. President, Prime Minister Johnson, I believe, is organizing some sort of discussion later today about the Syria conflict.  Are you going to take part in that and meet with him?  And if not, why?

TRUMP:  Are you talking about Ambassador Johnson?

Q:  Boris Johnson.  Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister.

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Trump is way out of his depth with democratic world leaders. They are educated, sophisticated, smart, successful people, with no background of pathological lying or criminal behaviour. None of them appear to be in Putin's pocket.

Donnie is much more at home with dictators. They're bullies, crooks, deeply racist, proudly anti-intellectual egomaniacs...….his kind of people.

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14 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I’m of mixed minds on this. On the one hand you are completely correct  that it’s regrettable it’s come to this.   OTOH, given trumps behavior on the world stage and particularly to our NATO allies - it’s excusable they would do this in what they thought was a private moment. 
 

the sad part is NATO needed a little tough love from the US and telling them to pull their own weight was the correct move. But like everything shitstain does, he does what is a good instinct but executed it in THE worst possible way and usually achieves exactly the opposite of what is desired. 

I think your post needs a soundtrack.

 

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I’m of mixed minds on this. On the one hand you are completely correct  that it’s regrettable it’s come to this.   OTOH, given trumps behavior on the world stage and particularly to our NATO allies - it’s excusable they would do this in what they thought was a private moment. 

Given who they are, and why they were gathered, I am not sure it would be reasonable for them to think anything they said or did would be private.  Like it or not, they are public figures, gathered for an international summit, and there are people there whose job it is to report what occurs - good or bad.

They just provided grist for the mill.

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Nah, there needs to be more of this.  It's insane that the US media ties itself in knots trying to pretend like Trump is some kind of serious person deserving of respect.  He is a fool who has made a mockery of a whole country and its politics and institutions, and he should be mocked, openly.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

They're laughing at Trump - and the idiots and fools who support him.

They sympathize with the sane people in America who have to live through this nightmare.

That applies to all of us furriners, trust me.

 

This! Unfortunately Trumps supporters are so self abosorbed, and with blinders on, they are mostly clueless of anything beyond their local, state, or US borders....

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17 minutes ago, BrickTopHarry said:

Nah, there needs to be more of this.  It's insane that the US media ties itself in knots trying to pretend like Trump is some kind of serious person deserving of respect.  He is a fool who has made a mockery of a whole country and its politics and institutions, and he should be mocked, openly.

 

Total agreement, here!!

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I did not hear mockery in that  clip. I heard frustrated people describing the boorish behavior of another. 

mockery looks like this 

4243E2C0-AC74-40CA-990E-1CD4802174EF.jpeg

Don’t forget the subject of the “mockery” was Trump keeping Trudeau waiting whilst he did a 40 minute long press interview about himself. And part of the “mockery” was Trudeau’s simple observation that Trump’s own staff were aghast at Trump’s behaviour.

If Trump/USA want respect, show respect and start by not keeping the leader of one of your closest allies and neighbour waiting for 40 minutes.

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14 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Don’t forget the subject of the “mockery” was Trump keeping Trudeau waiting whilst he did a 40 minute long press interview about himself. And part of the “mockery” was Trudeau’s simple observation that Trump’s own staff were aghast at Trump’s behaviour.

If Trump/USA want respect, show respect and start by not keeping the leader of one of your closest allies and neighbour waiting for 40 minutes.

spot on

 

D

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12 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

While I understand what you are all saying, you can't come back later and bitch that the level of discourse among other leaders is beneath them.

You just get to accept they allowed themselves to go down toward his level.  They aren't as bad as he is, but they can't pretend to be far above him.

It's not like they went on public TV and trashed him.  They were having a private conversation some nosy snoop recorded to sell to the highest bidder.  

Everything they said about him has been said before and, most often, much worse.  It's the price we have to pay for electing such a poor leader.

I hope this is a wake up call to those who still blindly support this man who is destroying our democracy.  

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1 minute ago, Jules said:

I hope this is a wake up call to those who still blindly support this man who is destroying our democracy.  

Sadly, I doubt it will have any effect.  Well, other than getting them to dig in their heels and more forcefully defend their Dear Leader against meanies.

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11 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Sadly, I doubt it will have any effect.  Well, other than getting them to dig in their heels and more forcefully defend their Dear Leader against meanies.

Yes.  Our country is on the precipice, thanks to the fact-resistant Americans.

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When Trump entered the White House, he effectively ended several trade deals (NAFTA/TPP/Paris climate accords, UNESCO, etc) and immediately cut some new deals with other individual countries.

Who with specifically?  Mexico, Canada, South Korea, Japan, India (pending).

What began under Obama - a reduction in engagement with Europe and a swing to the east - has accelerated under Trump.  How did we 'contain' Russia?  By allying and trading closely with Germany, Japan, and Turkey.  How are we going to 'contain' China?  By allying and trading closely with Japan, India, and Korea.  That's the US focus.

Trump badmouths NATO because it doesn't matter as much to him.  And they badmouth him back because he deserves it.  "Don't embarrass your wife" is something Donald never really learned.  But the hard truth is Diego Garcia means 100x more than Incirlik.  The Germans recognized this and started taking steps a decade ago.  The rest of Europe is in a bit of denial but it was interesting that they got around to adding 'China' as a threat.   NATO isn't dead - but it's not the 'at all costs' alliance it once was.

Europe probably needs to focus more on strengthening the EDA and less on NATO.   That means exercising some old imperialistic demons but that's on what they probably should be focusing.

 

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43 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

When Trump entered the White House, he effectively ended several trade deals (NAFTA/TPP/Paris climate accords, UNESCO, etc) and immediately cut some new deals with other individual countries.

NAFTA 1.0 remains in force until NAFTA 2.0 is ratified.  

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

No, I'm serious.  I keep hearing this over and over again and I really want to know what cliff you think we're about to fall off of.  

Perhaps "falling off a cliff" is just a different metaphor than what will occur when we "burn this bitch down".

Both suggest a substantial change from the current state. 

Neither are entirely predictable WRT whether things will actually be better when the dust settles/smoke clears. 

And, both could be rather violent and destructive.

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Sadly, I doubt it will have any effect.  Well, other than getting them to dig in their heels and more forcefully defend their Dear Leader against meanies.

If it will have no effect, and I somewhat agree with you, then what is the issue? The elk are going to defend their boy Shitstain regardless. There's nothing we can do or not do that will matter in the least in that regard. Lastly, I is an American and this piece of shit ain't my king.

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6 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:
11 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

No, I'm serious.  I keep hearing this over and over again and I really want to know what cliff you think we're about to fall off of.  

Perhaps "falling off a cliff" is just a different metaphor than what will occur when we "burn this bitch down".

Both suggest a substantial change from the current state. 

Neither are entirely predictable WRT whether things will actually be better when the dust settles/smoke clears. 

And, both could be rather violent and destructive.

Not to get to pedantic about words, but I disagree.  "Precipice" to me implies falling into the Crevice and never seeing the light of day after you splat yourself at the bottom.  BTBD, to me is a cleansing fire.  Burning out all the dead wood, removing the fuel, a controlled burn, or whatever metaphor you want to use.  In addition it implies the Phoenix will rise from the ashes. 

Of course a controlled burn can get out of control.  But that's the risk you take to save the larger forest.   

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9 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

This is how you think you might vote for Trump - you just make shit up. Trump is diplomatically pushing away s Korea and Japan, not using them to contain China.

Psst.... @cmilliken - me thinks you have a stalker.  Which makes me happy because he used to chase me around PA and just argue anything I said no matter what it was.

Hey Fucklet, I head cmillikan said the sky was blue.  What do you think about that?  Are you going to let him get away with that obvious lie??  Are you not going to tell him what color he actually thinks the sky is and then argue against that??  C'mon man, you're slipping.  Where's that rage we love you so much for???

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17 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Not to get to pedantic about words, but I disagree.  "Precipice" to me implies falling into the Crevice and never seeing the light of day after you splat yourself at the bottom.  BTBD, to me is a cleansing fire.  Burning out all the dead wood, removing the fuel, a controlled burn, or whatever metaphor you want to use.  In addition it implies the Phoenix will rise from the ashes. 

Of course a controlled burn can get out of control.  But that's the risk you take to save the larger forest.   

Burning the bitch down can result in complete and total destruction.  You have a lot of faith in the ability to control the burn. 

Tell me, are you confident President Trump is being controlled/contained?  Do you think the Senate GOP is interested in controlling/containing the fire?

 

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

Frankly as boorish as Trump can be I'm more interested in getting our freeloading NATO partners to pony up so we don't have to.

Do some homework for a change - Germany alone spends as much on the military as does Russia (depending somewhat on currency fluctuations) 

the demand for ever higher levels of already ridiculous military spending is almost totally the product of MIC propaganda. 

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2 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Do some homework for a change - Germany alone spends as much on the military as does Russia (depending somewhat on currency fluctuations) 

the demand for ever higher levels of already ridiculous military spending is almost totally the product of MIC propaganda. 

I believe in honoring ones commitments. YMMD

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8 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Burning the bitch down can result in complete and total destruction.  You have a lot of faith in the ability to control the burn. 

Tell me, are you confident President Trump is being controlled/contained?  Do you think the Senate GOP is interested in controlling/containing the fire?

 

I think the senate and Bitch Mac see him as a useful tool/pawn.  I'm sure they go to work everyday holding their noses.  And I have said this before and I'll say it again.... trumpo is too stupid, too self-centered and too interested in making a quick buck than he is in grabbing real power.  That means his ability to do lasting damage the US is limited.  Because to do the things that would actually have us at the "precipice" takes work, skill, cunning, charisma, dedication and patience.  None of which he possesses.  Yes, the reputation of the US will suffer for a while.  But I don't see any real lasting irreparable damage.  

But.... what I AM most worried about is what comes next.  We've already opened Pandora's box to a populist leader who strokes the needs of the downtrodden.  Who's to say that the next one doesn't possess all the attributes I listed above and becomes the next Hitler?  That is what I am most scared of and why its better to BTBD now, because if we get this scenario - you're gonna wish ya'll had listened to Jeff way back when.  You're going to think my prescribed burn sounded like a great fucking idea.

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26 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Not to get to pedantic about words, but I disagree.  "Precipice" to me implies falling into the Crevice and never seeing the light of day after you splat yourself at the bottom.  BTBD, to me is a cleansing fire.  Burning out all the dead wood, removing the fuel, a controlled burn, or whatever metaphor you want to use.  In addition it implies the Phoenix will rise from the ashes. 

Of course a controlled burn can get out of control.  But that's the risk you take to save the larger forest.   

I would argue that the "Burn it down" mentality has cut this country deep.  The Idea was great , On paper, but in reality, the Bitch is still here and the outcome that was expected was sadly missed by a mile.  

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3 minutes ago, shaggy said:

I would argue that the "Burn it down" mentality has cut this country deep.  The Idea was great , On paper, but in reality, the Bitch is still here and the outcome that was expected was sadly missed by a mile.  

Oh, the burning hasn't even begun....

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Double post alert - -   I'm gonna post this here too. I think it is relevant. 

a point is that we can despise Trump while at the same time questioning NATO's mission. 

the US promised not to expand NATO eastward in the early 1990's 

a promise quickly broken by the militarists 

eastern europe should be a demilitarized zone - maybe it still can be 

I remember back early in the Clinton years when I heard former NATO commander John Galvin 

calling for such a solution and declaring that Russia could "become our permanent friends". 

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7 minutes ago, shaggy said:

I would argue that the "Burn it down" mentality has cut this country deep.  The Idea was great , On paper, but in reality, the Bitch is still here and the outcome that was expected was sadly missed by a mile.  

Burn it down is just dressed up nihilism. The elk want their entertainment and watching it burn is entertaining.

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I agree with much of this.  But two things about the whole snubbing Europe thing bothers me:

  1. While I absolutely agree that NATO has diminished in importance, its value hasn't gone away entirely.  Russia is still an adversary and Puty would LOVE him some weakened NATO so he can continue his fuckery along the border of East/West.  As I said, NATO needed some tough love and told to get their shit together and pull their weight - but it could have been done in a far more constructive way than alienating our closest allies.   
  2. "Containing" Jhyna is not all about Asia.  If you haven't noticed, they have gone heavily into Africa and the ME as well.  Europe could be a good ally in rolling some of that back.  IN addition, I think the EU would have jumped at the chance to get in on some of the pressure that the US is applying to China.  They've been hurt by their unfair trade practices as much as the US has.  Having a united US/EU front confronting china likely would have gotten results quicker.  As it is, I think Xi will just wait out the orangeman and deal with whoever is next.  

There was a 3rd point but I can't remember what it is after this last GnT.  :D

 

The fundamental question - Would you die to protect Lithuania?  If the tanks rolled in, would the US deploy bombers and tanks to stop them?  Or would we just ** ANGRY FIST ** here's some sanctions.  Simply put, the Russians gut checked on Crimea.  They were NEVER going to give it back without a fight.  NEVER.  There are certain geographic locations where, if held, GREATLY reduce the Russian frontier.  They know that.  We know that.  The demographic chart shows a hard reality - the Russian army is about to lose a good portion of their pool of able bodied soldiers.  They need to reduce the frontier they have to defend.  I believe they're going to do it - either by force or by treaty.  So... are you willing to die to protect Lithuania?  I believe they are.  And if you're not, then you better make that clear to the people who think you might.

I think Europe is smart and they need to look after their own affairs and rely far less on the US.

 

russia-population-pyramid-2016.gif.37cf2eeabf2fcc5401b07020b1eff526.gif

 

Relative to China and Africa, that's why I mentioned Diego Garcia.  We are not giving it up without blood.  Ever.  China relies on Shipping and Export for 1/2 of its GDP which is 10x cheaper by sea than overland. 

 

diego_garcia-700x420.jpg.794eefcd075e65760effe2a493c4dc43.jpg

 

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18 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think the senate and Bitch Mac see him as a useful tool/pawn.  I'm sure they go to work everyday holding their noses.  And I have said this before and I'll say it again.... trumpo is too stupid, too self-centered and too interested in making a quick buck than he is in grabbing real power.  That means his ability to do lasting damage the US is limited.  Because to do the things that would actually have us at the "precipice" takes work, skill, cunning, charisma, dedication and patience.  None of which he possesses.  Yes, the reputation of the US will suffer for a while.  But I don't see any real lasting irreparable damage.  

The problem is all the people behind and beside Trump. Just because he's totally incompetent doesn't mean that Stephen Miller isn't making great gains in turning the USA into The Fourth Reich.

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6 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

 

The fundamental question - Would you die to protect Lithuania?  If the tanks rolled in, would we deploy bombers and tanks to stop them?  Simply put, the Russians gut checked on Crimea.  They were NEVER going to give it back without a fight.  NEVER.  There are certain geographic locations where, if held, GREATLY reduce the Russian frontier.  They know that.  We know that.  The demographic chart shows a hard reality - the Russian army is about to lose a good portion of their pool of able bodied soldiers.  They need to reduce the frontier they have to defend.  I believe they're going to do it - either by force or by treaty.  So... are you willing to die to protect Lithuania?  I believe they are.  And if you're not, then you better make that clear to the people who think you might.

I think Europe is smart, they'll look after their own affairs and rely on the US less.

 

russia-population-pyramid-2016.gif.37cf2eeabf2fcc5401b07020b1eff526.gif

 

Relative to China and Africa, that's why I mentioned Diego Garcia.  We are not giving it up without blood.  Ever.  China relies on Shipping and Export for 1/2 of its GDP which is 10x cheaper than overland. 

 

diego_garcia-700x420.jpg.794eefcd075e65760effe2a493c4dc43.jpg

 

Also notice that there is diminished population in the 20-24 age range which as well as representing the present foot soldier, also represents the officers and technological people.  There may not be enough technical people to make Russia run as a modern society.

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45 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Psst.... @cmilliken - me thinks you have a stalker.  Which makes me happy because he used to chase me around PA and just argue anything I said no matter what it was.

Hey Fucklet, I head cmillikan said the sky was blue.  What do you think about that?  Are you going to let him get away with that obvious lie??  Are you not going to tell him what color he actually thinks the sky is and then argue against that??  C'mon man, you're slipping.  Where's that rage we love you so much for???

:)

I post because I want a good contrarian argument and I enjoy the occasional clever banter.  You're wrong cause you're a stupid fuckhead! isn't exactly contrarian or clever but it is an opinion.  Without strawmen and ad hominims , we wouldn't have passed General Anarchy!

 

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50 minutes ago, Dog said:

I believe in honoring ones commitments. YMMD

And, yet, you continue to defend the President who never met a commitment he could keep.

From professional (business deals and contracts) to personal (marriage vows), the guy is a commitment-phobe.

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21 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

:)

I post because I want a good contrarian argument and I enjoy the occasional clever banter.  You're wrong cause you're a stupid fuckhead! isn't exactly contrarian or clever but it is an opinion.  Without strawmen and ad hominims , we wouldn't have passed General Anarchy!

 

No, you don't and no we didn't!

What the fuck, do you think this is Political Nicey-Nice or some shit like that?

- DSK

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I’m of mixed minds on this. On the one hand you are completely correct  that it’s regrettable it’s come to this.   OTOH, given trumps behavior on the world stage and particularly to our NATO allies - it’s excusable they would do this in what they thought was a private moment. 
 

the sad part is NATO needed a little tough love from the US and telling them to pull their own weight was the correct move. But like everything shitstain does, he does what is a good instinct but executed it in THE worst possible way and usually achieves exactly the opposite of what is desired. 

Pulling their own weight. What a farce you've bought into. 

Either the US wants to be the superpower or it doesn't. Either we want to enforce wide peace by our presence or we dont. Seems like we don't. Time to let Nato fall apart.  Time for USexit from global affairs. Let Russia have Europe and China have Asia. Might as well let that old book come to reality, since we're living in it already. 

The next generation of americans that are fighting in Europe can thank the deplorables.

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28 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Either the US wants to be the superpower or it doesn't. Either we want to enforce wide peace by our presence or we dont. Seems like we don't. Time to let Nato fall apart.  Time for USexit from global affairs. Let Russia have Europe and China have Asia. Might as well let that old book come to reality, since we're living in it already. 

The next generation of americans that are fighting in Europe can thank the deplorables. 

I think that's exactly it.  We're done being a superpower.  Enough.  That was fun but we WON.  Time to go home.

To the second point, fighting who?

The Germans again?   We going to join the French to kill us some Krauts?  The Red Menace with their collapsing demographics trying to seize industrial productivity?

To me, Europe's only external threat is  Africa.  That's where the problem is going to come from - millions upon millions of immigrants seeking a better life.

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5 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I think that's exactly it.  We're done being a superpower.  Enough.  That was fun but we WON.  Time to go home.

To the second point, fighting who?

The Germans again?   We going to join the French to kill us some Krauts?  The Red Menace with their collapsing demographics trying to seize industrial productivity?

To me, Europe's only external threat is  Africa.  That's where the problem is going to come from - millions upon millions of immigrants seeking a better life.

The fallacy is that if we come home, that the troubles which will flare up all over the place won't follow us. Did Rome survive when the Romans said "enough of this empire shit, bring the troops back"?

 

I propose that we NEED to stay engaged in order to keep the fires burning low.  If you think the cost of this engagement is what's driving our military budget, you're dreaming. That cost is due to the "must win 2 massive land wars against equal opponents" and a fetish for high-tech.  Oh, and retiree medical costs. can't forget that the medical system fucks over gov't military retiree costs like it fucks over everyone else.

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28 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

The fallacy is that if we come home, that the troubles which will flare up all over the place won't follow us. Did Rome survive when the Romans said "enough of this empire shit, bring the troops back"?

I propose that we NEED to stay engaged in order to keep the fires burning low.  If you think the cost of this engagement is what's driving our military budget, you're dreaming. That cost is due to the "must win 2 massive land wars against equal opponents" and a fetish for high-tech.  Oh, and retiree medical costs. can't forget that the medical system fucks over gov't military retiree costs like it fucks over everyone else.

Most of our military budget is people, not machines :)  Totally aware.  Withdrawing isn't going to save money in particular.

But you have to have a mission.  What are you going to do?  Russia has been a fine opponent but I don't see us being willing to actually get in a shooting war with them and the know it.  Yes, the trouble will flare up.  No disagreement.  Which is why I think Europe needs to be much more proactive.

I don't think the US wants to get involved tapping down European internal problems when we have China to prop up as the great boogie man to justify the Military industrial complex.

 

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18 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Most of our military budget is people, not machines :)  Totally aware.  Withdrawing isn't going to save money in particular.

But you have to have a mission.  What are you going to do?  Russia has been a fine opponent but I don't see us being willing to actually get in a shooting war with them and the know it.  Yes, the trouble will flare up.  No disagreement.  Which is why I think Europe needs to be much more proactive.

I don't think the US wants to get involved tapping down European internal problems when we have China to prop up as the great boogie man to justify the Military industrial complex.

It's little things like having ships patrol the right shipping lanes, having small garrisons in flashpoints, keeping a presence in Germany, Korea and Japan as forward bases....

 

The big bases might be expensive, but the little ones, and a blue water navy are the cost to keep that shit "over there"

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

It's little things like having ships patrol the right shipping lanes, having small garrisons in flashpoints, keeping a presence in Germany, Korea and Japan as forward bases....

The big bases might be expensive, but the little ones, and a blue water navy are the cost to keep that shit "over there"

FWIW, I'm actually somewhat ambivalent to all this re-posturing.  I understand it - or at least I think I do.  But I think the odds of us actual sinking a Chinese heavy freighter is about as likely as engaging the Russians in a shooting war in Ukraine - i.e., virtually zero.

What I'd actually like to see is a US leader - from either party - stand up and lay out some clear national objectives instead of this drip-drip-drip policy by tweet.

Good luck!  I"m off on vacation :)  Be safe everyone!

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