18 Years of Lies About Afghanistan

[jocal505 265]

Wow. Another, extended, Vietnam-type, violence-based, fiasco. Lord have mercy on us, after this wretched effort. WTF?

 

 

[Sol Rosenberg 10,155]

The internet has the receipts, bullshitters. 
 

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/568008-rnc-post-trump-peace-deal-taliban-pre-2021-items-offline-during-site-maintenance

 

[Ishmael 10,596]

 

[Bus Driver 6,894]

Holy shit.

 

[Lark 1,921]

2 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Holy shit.

 

Shame on us,   Our military is in such a hurry to escape they abandon those who fought at their side.    Better this then death from the Taliban.   Surely we have  enough planes.   We just lack the will.

[mischiefmark 3]

I struggle with the 20 year number.  In 1980, we hired a group of rebels in the mountains of Afghanistan to fight off the Russians.  There was a famous lawsuit in 1987 against a us military officer. 

All of this longer than 20 years ago...

Mujahideen in Afghanistan

After leaving college in 1979, bin Laden went to Pakistan, joined Abdullah Azzam and used money and machinery from his own construction company to help the Mujahideen resistance in the Soviet–Afghan War.^[97] He later told a journalist: "I felt outraged that an injustice had been committed against the people of Afghanistan."^[98] From 1979 to 1992, the United States (as part of CIA activities in Afghanistan, specifically Operation Cyclone), Saudi Arabia, and China provided between $6–12 billion worth of financial aid and weapons to tens of thousands of mujahideen through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).^[99] British journalist Jason Burke wrote that "He did not receive any direct funding or training from the US during the 1980s. Nor did his followers. The Afghan mujahideen, via Pakistan's ISI intelligence agency, received large amounts of both. Some bled to the Arabs fighting the Soviets but nothing significant."^[100] Bin Laden met and built relations with Hamid Gul, who was a three-star general in the Pakistani army and head of the ISI agency. Although the United States provided the money and weapons, the training of militant groups was entirely done by the Pakistani Armed Forces and the ISI.^[101] According to some CIA officers, beginning in early 1980, bin Laden acted as a liaison between the Saudi General Intelligence Presidency (GIP) and Afghan warlords, but no evidence of contact between the CIA and Bin Laden exists in the CIA archives. Steve Coll states that although bin Laden may not have been a formal, salaried GIP agent, "it seems clear that bin Laden did have a substantial relationship with Saudi intelligence."^[102] Bin Laden's first trainer was U.S. Special Forces commando Ali Mohamed.^[103]

[Battlecheese 165]

On 8/13/2021 at 2:14 PM, Olsonist said:

What I've read is that OBL was there but slipped our grasp.

Even better, he was there, imprisoned by the Taliban, awaiting any sort of evidence to support an extradition proceding. But that didn't quite fit in with the kangaroo court that america had in mind.

[Burning Man 1,718]

On 8/15/2021 at 2:03 PM, random. said:

TB is a strawman.  It would not have mattered a fuck in the scheme of things.

Oh really?  How so?

[Burning Man 1,718]

On 8/15/2021 at 2:39 PM, random. said:

What am I, your fucking Secretary?

in very recent times we have Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam.

Do you really need any more?

Yeah, that's only 3 out of the supposed five.  Who are the others?  

[Burning Man 1,718]

On 8/16/2021 at 4:02 AM, Sol Rosenberg said:

Oh well. We can find another country that is dreaming of having freedom and a modern army and Air Force. They may not know they are dreaming of it but they most definitely are. 

Cuba fits that bill perfectly.  Invade!  Invade!

 

[Burning Man 1,718]

21 hours ago, Lark said:

Shame on us,   Our military is in such a hurry to escape they abandon those who fought at their side.    Better this then death from the Taliban.   Surely we have  enough planes.   We just lack the will.

Are you fucking kidding me???  We have enough planes to do what???  Evacuate all of Afghanistan??  

Sorry, but we should have been out of there 10 years or more ago.  

 

[Burning Man 1,718]

13 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Even better, he was there, imprisoned by the Taliban, awaiting any sort of evidence to support an extradition proceding. But that didn't quite fit in with the kangaroo court that america had in mind.

that's a lie.  He was not imprisoned by the taliban.... Unless imprisoned is a pusstrailian word for "protected".  

[Sol Rosenberg 10,155]

21 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Cuba fits that bill perfectly.  Invade!  Invade!

 

I killed my last bottle of Ron Santiago de Cuba Anejo 11yrs a few weeks back. I’m fine with som shock and awe. 

[Lark 1,921]

44 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Are you fucking kidding me???  We have enough planes to do what???  Evacuate all of Afghanistan??  

Sorry, but we should have been out of there 10 years or more ago.  

 

To evacuate those that translated for our troops, liaison with our troops, etc.  The guys that got paid indirectly from the billions we paid Afghanistan (the part the leaders couldn't grab before it filtered down), got unarmored Ford Rangers, no body armor to work with our troops.   They may have been suckers, but they put it on the line for us.

How are they supposed to get a passport??   They were foolish not to get written documentation.   They didn't plan for the day we ran away and the Taliban prepares to cut off their heads.    If we ever want local aid and assistance in one of our wars, locals to help downed pilots or warn the patrol that the next village isn't to be trusted and the road isn't either, we need to help these people now.   Especially the women who dared follow our example and join society need our protection.   

BBC interviewed one very articulate guy at length Sunday, as he hid in a shop overnight.   The US wouldn't let him in the airport fence because he didn't have his papers.   One of his ex comrades from the American side was trying to get his congress critter to help.   He expected to die when the shop keeper stopped harboring him.   These stories hurt American credibility far more and are far more personal then the weddings that accidentally got blown up or the occasional British patrol that got wiped out.

We actually agree we should have left years ago.   But we stayed.  The blood of these men is our collective responsibility just as the twin towers were the responsibility of Afghanistan, for letting Bin Laden operate from their territory.   Just as we had a right to invade them in the first place (to get those that attacked us), those that helped us had the expectation we would act like Americans of old.    

 

[Lark 1,921]

33 minutes ago, random. said:

The American fascination for the summary execution of a suspected criminal is straight out of the wild west.

9/11 was done.   Seems he was 'spared' at TB.  How else can you explain one man evading the combined forces of the largest military machine on the planet?  Or were they just not up to the task of killing one man dressed in rags, hiding in caves?

But the politicians could not afford to put him on trial, too much embarrassing shit would come out.

Tora Bora was a political decision to hold the military back.  The generals were tasked with keeping the daily body count low, so CNN wouldn't have a story.   All other military objectives were secondary, including the reason they were there in the first place.   

[Burning Man 1,718]

33 minutes ago, random. said:

The American fascination for the summary execution of a suspected criminal is straight out of the wild west.

9/11 was done.   Seems he was 'spared' at TB.  How else can you explain one man evading the combined forces of the largest military machine on the planet?  Or were they just not up to the task of killing one man dressed in rags, hiding in caves?

But the politicians could not afford to put him on trial, too much embarrassing shit would come out.

Dude, just stfu about stuff you know zero about.  You make it out like TB was the size of a soccer pitch.  It was a vast wilderness and cave maze with rugged 14,000 foot peaks.  Those same mountains were the ones where Alexander, the British Empire and the Soviets all tired to hold and failed. 

Not to mention we had been on the ground all of a week or two and didn't have sufficient forces to seal off the escape routes.  We also made the mistake that we thought the pakis had our back and would block any escape into pakistan.  They likely not only didn't help us, but I'm betting they actively helped OBL escape.  

 

[Ventucky Red 1,102]

11 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

 They likely not only didn't help us, but I'm betting they actively helped OBL escape.  

 

And gave him a safe haven for how many years?

I am thinking OBL didn't make his regular "street rent" payment and some Paki dropped the dime. 

 

 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Lark said:

 

We actually agree we should have left years ago.   But we stayed.  The blood of these men is our collective responsibility just as the twin towers were the responsibility of Afghanistan, for letting Bin Laden operate from their territory.   Just as we had a right to invade them in the first place (to get those that attacked us), those that helped us had the expectation we would act like Americans of old.    

 

You missed the part where the taliban offered to give OBL to the US. Instead like a very bad western the US rode in and fucked everything.

[Lark 1,921]

Just now, Caecilian said:

You missed the part where the taliban offered to give OBL to the US. Instead like a very bad western the US rode in and fucked everything.

Taliban word to an unbeliever is as binding as Trump's word to anybody.   They did make an offer, after they refused.   They demanded conditions.    Try that with the police.    Your brother kills a cop and hides in hour house.  Refuse to turn him over.  Then offer to turn him over with conditions.    See what happens to your front door.    It was an act of war, planned and launched from Afghan soil.  They were in no position to negotiate, any more then the US would be if Senator Cruz attacked Cuba (and Cuba had a military).   IMO they could have tied OBL to a cross in the desert and let Bush know where to find him, if they didn't want America as an enemy.  Unfortunately they were smarter then Bush and defeated America.  

 

[Olsonist 3,541]

10 minutes ago, Lark said:

Taliban word to an unbeliever is as binding as Trump's word to anybody.

No, that goes too far. We negotiated many times with the Taleban, before 9/11 and definitely after the invasion. Bowe Bergdahl comes to mind. Kansi comes to mind.

If you want the operational definition of fuck up, you'll find it under W.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

[Marty6 447]

28 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Dude, just stfu about stuff you know zero about.  You make it out like TB was the size of a soccer pitch.  It was a vast wilderness and cave maze with rugged 14,000 foot peaks.  Those same mountains were the ones where Alexander, the British Empire and the Soviets all tired to hold and failed. 

 

 

LOL, still remember the stories about that huge bunker fortress in TB from the US officials and in the media up front and once the military finally got there it was some bare caves. What a hoax by Al Quida and the Taliban.

[Lark 1,921]

1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Are you fucking kidding me???  We have enough planes to do what???  Evacuate all of Afghanistan??  

Sorry, but we should have been out of there 10 years or more ago.  

 

Please tell me I missunderstood cnn.    I was driving home listening to Sirius, an ambassador (US to UN?) was talking about reports of human rights abuses and the strongly worded warning that had been issued.    She then talked about the us evacuation efforts for Afghanistan allies,    She said planes were flying around the clock and in two days 3000 people had been evacuated!!?     Does the Air Force still fly c47s?   

[Movable Ballast 247]

57 minutes ago, random. said:

The Bush's and Bin Ladens go way back.  He was allowed to escape.

 

[Battlecheese 165]

2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

that's a lie.  He was not imprisoned by the taliban.... Unless imprisoned is a pusstrailian word for "protected".  

You are projecting. Not all of us are habitual liars like yourself.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

Quote

Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over
9.30pm update:
* Taliban demand evidence of Bin Laden's guilt
* Second week of airstrikes starts
* Taliban urges US to halt bombing
Staff and agencies
Mon 15 Oct 2001
President George Bush rejected as "non-negotiable" an offer by the Taliban to discuss turning over Osama bin Laden if the United States ended the bombing in Afghanistan.

Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty". In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country".

 

[Battlecheese 165]

1 hour ago, Lark said:

Taliban word to an unbeliever is as binding as Trump's word to anybody.   They did make an offer, after they refused.   They demanded conditions.    Try that with the police.    Your brother kills a cop and hides in hour house.  Refuse to turn him over.  Then offer to turn him over with conditions.    See what happens to your front door.    It was an act of war, planned and launched from Afghan soil.  They were in no position to negotiate, any more then the US would be if Senator Cruz attacked Cuba (and Cuba had a military).   IMO they could have tied OBL to a cross in the desert and let Bush know where to find him, if they didn't want America as an enemy.  Unfortunately they were smarter then Bush and defeated America.  

 

[Lark 1,921]

9 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

We didn’t delay on December 8 while looking for proof Japan’s Emperor ordered the attack,    We just declared war (and lost the Philippines).    We weren’t extraditing a criminal for hacking your credit card.    We were responding to an act of war, aided and abetted by Afghanistan, organized on their soil.   

[Battlecheese 165]

5 minutes ago, Lark said:

We didn’t delay on December 8 while looking for proof Japan ordered the attack,    We just declared war (and lost the Philippines).    We weren’t extraditing a criminal for hacking your credit card.    We were responding to an act of war, aided and abetted by Afghanistan, organized on their soil.   

This is a big call, and is not supported by the fact that the Taliban promptly secured him and were happy to discuss legal processes. Their downfall was their aspirations to being a recognised government, which lead them to try and behave like one.

[Lark 1,921]

10 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

This is a big call, and is not supported by the fact that the Taliban promptly secured him and were happy to discuss legal processes. Their downfall was their aspirations to being a recognised government, which lead them to try and behave like one.

No, personal philosophy.   No first strike, but overwhelming violence of action in response.   Do not stop until the threat ceases.   We were attacked, both military and civilian targets were chosen.    They forced evacuation of our military headquarters with box cutters, but it was no laughing matter.    We did many / MOST things wrong, but we had a right to respond with aggression.   The Taliban was looking for CIA materials and methods.   The offer to turn him over to some other country if we stopped bombing was disingenuous.    

[Battlecheese 165]

32 minutes ago, Lark said:

No, personal philosophy.   No first strike, but overwhelming violence of action in response.   Do not stop until the threat ceases.   We were attacked, both military and civilian targets were chosen.    They forced evacuation of our military headquarters with box cutters, but it was no laughing matter.    We did many / MOST things wrong, but we had a right to respond with aggression.   The Taliban was looking for CIA materials and methods.   The offer to turn him over to some other country if we stopped bombing was disingenuous.    

Do as we say, not as we do. American exceptionalism writ large. This attitude is the reason so many people in so many countries hate us.

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

2 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Do as we say, not as we do. American exceptionalism writ large.

One more time, . . how did the Taliban come to dominate a previously pretty secular Afghanistan in the first place ?? 

(Pssssst, it was a consequence of Blowback) 

[Burning Man 1,718]

6 hours ago, random. said:

The Bush's and Bin Ladens go way back.  He was allowed to escape.

When Harken Energy took over the collapsed Arbusto Oil Company in 1986, it was underwritten for $25 million by the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, better known as BCCI. Coincidentally or not, BCCI also had many of the same rich Middle Eastern businessmen involved in its operations as Arbusto had.

In early 1991, the BCCI was shut down due to investigations revealing money laundering activities that were connected to the movement of weapons, as well as “funneling money to the Mujahideen” to aid in their conflict against the Soviet Union. (As we shall see later, this money was essentially being funneled to Osama bin Laden.) Another longtime Bush–bin Laden associate, the previously mentioned Khalid bin Mahfuiz, had a controlling interest in BCCI. In short, BCCI has been called “the most corrupt financial institution in history.”^[3]

Although there were no proven direct links between the Bush family and BCCI, there were definite indirect links to be investigated. There were also similar connections between another group the Bush and bin Laden families were involved with, which was directly involved with the BCCI, and it is the next entry on our list.

Did BCCI also supply the nanothermite charges that toppled the WTC too?

[Burning Man 1,718]

5 hours ago, Lark said:

7 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Are you fucking kidding me???  We have enough planes to do what???  Evacuate all of Afghanistan??  

Sorry, but we should have been out of there 10 years or more ago.  

 

Please tell me I missunderstood cnn.    I was driving home listening to Sirius, an ambassador (US to UN?) was talking about reports of human rights abuses and the strongly worded warning that had been issued.    She then talked about the us evacuation efforts for Afghanistan allies,    She said planes were flying around the clock and in two days 3000 people had been evacuated!!?     Does the Air Force still fly c47s?   

Well given that the population of Afghanistan is what...... 38 mil give or take - it would only take 25,000 days to get all of the afghanis to safety.  Sorry, but a lot of those people that flooded the airport looked like FAM's - they could have picked up an AK-47 and opposed the taliban too and saved their own country.  Sorry, zero fucks to give after 20 years.  

Now, the people who risked their lives to help the US.....? Absolutely any and all means should be expended to get them and their families out.  But that was not who was climbing onto C-17s as they taxied out.  

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

7 hours ago, Burning Man said:

we thought the pakis had our back and would block any escape into pakistan.  They likely not only didn't help us, but I'm betting they actively helped OBL escape.

Gee, ya think ?? 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/17/2046375/-There-would-be-no-Taliban-without-Pakistan-and-Saudi-Arabia-We-need-to-reconsider-the-word-allies

[Lark 1,921]

8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Well given that the population of Afghanistan is what...... 38 mil give or take - it would only take 25,000 days to get all of the afghanis to safety.  Sorry, but a lot of those people that flooded the airport looked like FAM's - they could have picked up an AK-47 and opposed the taliban too and saved their own country.  Sorry, zero fucks to give after 20 years.  

Now, the people who risked their lives to help the US.....? Absolutely any and all means should be expended to get them and their families out.  But that was not who was climbing onto C-17s as they taxied out.  

Based on the speed the Taliban took over, it’s obvious there are plenty of people that prefer them to us.   I’m not talking about everybody,   Those that helped us and immediate family are not being helped per BBC and NPR.   The review process is about like the process to legally immigrate from Mexico (200 year waiting list), modeled after Stalinist Russia, staffed by people promoted from the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles for zealotry.   Always ask for one more form, then deny.    The process is being called a multi year ordeal with need for documentation that often doesn’t exist.

What happens to the few we do allow?    My brother’s former employer got busted for hiring Somalia Refugees.     They were legally in the US, had been for years, but forbidden to work by their Visa.   Can you think of a better way to make sure people become criminal or extremist?    

 

 

The few 

[Sol Rosenberg 10,155]

[Blue Crab 2,452]

14 hours ago, Lark said:

Unfortunately they were smarter than Bush and defeated America.  

Nah. They didn't defeat America. They just ran our small bunch of soldiers out. We could have melted all the places we've ... ah ...skirmished in over the last 80 years in under a day under an hour. The 80 years have shown simply that limited boots on the ground brings very limited results. Consider all these folks who've lost limbs, and bros and sister in these limited wars.

And for what?

11 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Do as we say, not as we do. American exceptionalism writ large. This attitude is the reason so many people in so many countries hate us.

I'm totally ok with that. Nobody loves the top dog. They have to smell our butts. Pragmatism 101.

[Lark 1,921]

1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

Nah. They didn't defeat America. They just ran our small bunch of soldiers out. We could have melted all the places we've ... ah ...skirmished in over the last 80 years in under a day under an hour. The 80 years have shown simply that limited boots on the ground brings very limited results. Consider all these folks who've lost limbs, and bros and sister in these limited wars.

And for what?

I'm totally ok with that. Nobody loves the top dog. They have to smell our butts. Pragmatism 101.

Isn’t that like saying ‘we didn’t lose to Afghan High School.   We just put Tom Brady and the receivers on reserve for salary reasons and told the linebackers to avoid blocks to minimize concussions.’?

[Lark 1,921]

@Burning Man   Can you explain this?     The news just reported the Air Force is accelerating its tempo to a plane each hour?    Why is the world’s biggest Air Force limited to a couple dozen planes?  Do the rest need maintenance?    This seems a shadow force in logistics compared to the Berlin air lift.  

 

[Raz'r 5,189]

1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

Nah. They didn't defeat America. They just ran our small bunch of soldiers out. We could have melted all the places we've ... ah ...skirmished in over the last 80 years in under a day under an hour. The 80 years have shown simply that limited boots on the ground brings very limited results. Consider all these folks who've lost limbs, and bros and sister in these limited wars.

And for what?

I'm totally ok with that. Nobody loves the top dog. They have to smell our butts. Pragmatism 101.

They completely defeated the political will of the US, which of course they were ordained to do, just like every other state that has tried to occupy that place.

[mathystuff 454]

1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

I'm totally ok with that. Nobody loves the top dog. They have to smell our butts. Pragmatism 101.

Yeah, that's it.

It isn't the invasions of other countries for made up reasons, the overthrowing of legitimate governments, the killings by drone strikes, the torture or any other actual reason.

Everyone is just jelly of how great the US is.

[Olsonist 3,541]

Honestly, I think our foreign aid to Afghanistan should just be free digital subscriptions to Reason. Then Tom will move there.

[Bus Driver 6,894]

Sorry, Mr. President.  You either make a plan or delay the process until you have a plan.

Biden officials complain that the Trump administration lacked a plan on withdrawing from Afghanistan and accuse them of leaving behind a 'bare' cupboard: report

[Raz'r 5,189]

5 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Sorry, Mr. President.  You either make a plan or delay the process until you have a plan.

Biden officials complain that the Trump administration lacked a plan on withdrawing from Afghanistan and accuse them of leaving behind a 'bare' cupboard: report

yep, this is on the Biden admin. 2 seemingly missing items: Plan for evacuating collaborators quickly and a plan for airport security. That 2nd one seems particularly galling a miss for the vaunted military. How could they NOT keep people away from the planes?

[Olsonist 3,541]

8 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

... or delay the process until you have a plan.

Which part of Get The Fuck Out do you not understand?

Is it that part where we got our toys + embassy out? Is it that we got our troops out? Is it that part where we've taken in 10s of thousands of Afghans and will take in 10s of thousands more?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/afghanistan-usa.html

Seriously, which part of Get The Fuck Out are you missing?

[Bus Driver 6,894]

8 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Which part of Get The Fuck Out do you not understand?

Is it that part where we got our toys + embassy out? Is it that we got our troops out? Is it that part where we've taken in 10s of thousands of Afghans and will take in 10s of thousands more?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/afghanistan-usa.html

Seriously, which part of Get The Fuck Out are you missing?

Are you of the opinion the Biden Administration had a well-thought plan for this exit and executed it as intended?

[Olsonist 3,541]

10 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Are you of the opinion the Biden Administration had a well-thought plan for this exit and executed it as intended?

Yes, I am of this opinion. It starts with Get and it ends with Out. As with anything military, the middle part includes some fucking up because they don't exactly recruit Nobel Laureates.

[Bus Driver 6,894]

10 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Yes, I am of this opinion. It starts with Get and it ends with Out. As with anything military, the middle part includes some fucking up because they don't exactly recruit Nobel Laureates.

If that was his plan, he doesn't get to blame The Former Guy. 

He owns it, lock, stock, and barrel.

[Steam Flyer 8,413]

8 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

10 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Are you of the opinion the Biden Administration had a well-thought plan for this exit and executed it as intended?

Yes, I am of this opinion. It starts with Get and it ends with Out. As with anything military, the middle part includes some fucking up. They don't recruit Nobel Laureates.

 

No but they have a huge building full of guys with advanced degrees in how to not fuck up various military operations.

When the determination was made to pull out, thousands of supposedly skilled and knowledgable people got to work... figuring out how much fuel needed to be on hand at various stations along the way. How many airplanes per day can be flown in/out of Bagram and/or Kabul. And they did this, all day, every day, as their JOB.

Then they figure out contingencies, if "this" then what do we do, if "that" we go to option C, etc etc.

For example, when it was just pulling out of Bagram, things went quite smoothly... so smoothly it was easy to have the illusion that it was going to be easy.

Now it's apparent that whatever plan(s) was made was utterly fucked.

 

1 minute ago, Bus Driver said:

If that was his plan, he doesn't get to blame The Former Guy. 

He owns it, lock, stock, and barrel.

Agreed. I'm really surprised that Biden, who is really the ultimate Big Machine guy, presided over such a colossal and avoidable failure of the Big Machine. Some asses need to be kicked for this. Seriously.

- DSK

[Olsonist 3,541]

13 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

If that was his plan, he doesn't get to blame The Former Guy. 

He owns it, lock, stock, and barrel.

Awesome. Biden owns it. We will include that under Get The Fuck Out which is something Shitstain didn't do. You seem to be complaining about something several decimal places away from the point which is Out, Get The Fuck.

[Bus Driver 6,894]

3 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Awesome. Biden owns it. We will include that under Get The Fuck Out which is something Shitstain didn't do. You seem to be complaining about something several decimal places away from the point.

Did someone piss in your Wheaties?

I posted a link to a story where the current President is blaming the previous President.  In my opinion, that is incredibly weak and only serves to let people know he didn't spend the last 7 months demanding the Pentagon put together a plan that he now claims wasn't there (the "bare cupboard" comment).

It happened on his watch.  He owns it.

 

For the record - I think we should have been gone, long ago.

[3to1 733]

the refugees could come to the 'merican west but the fkg place is on fire and there's not much water.

[Olsonist 3,541]

27 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Did someone piss in your Wheaties?

Twenty years of suckage and wasting $2T will irrigate quite a few bowls of Wheaties. It was a long war, a dumb war, an expensive war, an inhumane war. We shot up wedding parties in the name of freedom. There's plenty to get outraged about but Getting The Fuck Out is not one of them.

Thank you, President Biden, for Getting Us The Fuck Out.

[Steam Flyer 8,413]

19 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

the refugees could come to the 'merican west but the fkg place is on fire and there's not much water.

Not much different from the land that they left behind, except in Afghanistan there weren't that many trees to burn in the first place

- DSK

[Olsonist 3,541]

6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Not much different from the land that they left behind, except in Afghanistan there weren't that many trees to burn in the first place

- DSK

I was impressed by the Governor of Utah who wrote to Biden asking for Afghan refugees.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-governor-pens-letter-to-pres-biden-offering-help-with-afghani-refugees

[Lark 1,921]

Just now, Olsonist said:

I was impressed by the Governor of Utah who wrote to Biden asking for Afghan refugees.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-governor-pens-letter-to-pres-biden-offering-help-with-afghani-refugees

Several states could use the influx of eager trainable entry level labor right now.    They speak English and can survive without AC.   Lets bring a hundred to my town and make sure they have work permits.    

[3to1 733]

12 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Not much different from the land that they left behind, except in Afghanistan there weren't that many trees to burn in the first place

- DSK

oh, I know that, I was just pointing out an even bigger 'destabilization' playing out.

[bridhb 918]

1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

yep, this is on the Biden admin. 2 seemingly missing items: Plan for evacuating collaborators quickly and a plan for airport security. That 2nd one seems particularly galling a miss for the vaunted military. How could they NOT keep people away from the planes?

I get the impression that Biden's admin believed the story they were getting that there were weeks, not hours, to prepare and execute the pull out from Kabul.  No politician or political party would want the "news" coverage that is continuously on right now.

If they were getting conflicting information, they obviously chose the wrong group to go with.

[Raz'r 5,189]

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

No but they have a huge building full of guys with advanced degrees in how to not fuck up various military operations.

When the determination was made to pull out, thousands of supposedly skilled and knowledgable people got to work... figuring out how much fuel needed to be on hand at various stations along the way. How many airplanes per day can be flown in/out of Bagram and/or Kabul. And they did this, all day, every day, as their JOB.

Then they figure out contingencies, if "this" then what do we do, if "that" we go to option C, etc etc.

For example, when it was just pulling out of Bagram, things went quite smoothly... so smoothly it was easy to have the illusion that it was going to be easy.

Now it's apparent that whatever plan(s) was made was utterly fucked.

 

Agreed. I'm really surprised that Biden, who is really the ultimate Big Machine guy, presided over such a colossal and avoidable failure of the Big Machine. Some asses need to be kicked for this. Seriously.

- DSK

My only surprise was losing control of the airfield. Some general needs to find his career in the service, over, so now he can go make the big bucks peddling shit to the guys who do things right.

[Olsonist 3,541]

https://www.vox.com/2021/8/18/22629135/biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-reasons

I have the (probably minority) view that the military slow walked and fucked this up on purpose because they knew there would be a day of reckoning (and because they don't like Biden). That's why the only part of Get The Fuck Out that I really care about is the Get and the Out. Much is made of the airport and nothing at all is made of the fucktastrophe of preceding 20 years. This is not a reckoning. This is a distraction.

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

Spoke with a Marine Corps vet yesterday who spent hard duty in the Sunni Triangle . . 

Like most of the young 'uns who signed up, he was idealistic and wanted to help the US and far away lands. 

Our national security overlords totally broke faith with him, and all his comrades.  

 

[Ishmael 10,596]

 

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

This is similar to my own analysis . .    

Jimmy Carter deserves some opprobrium as well . . 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/18/2046703/-The-USA-Created-the-Cancer-that-Consumed-Afghanistan-in-1979

And as a bonus, if you click you can see that I got a time out at Kos !!

[Lark 1,921]

Hear air traffic controller's stunned reaction to C-17 flight load as it leaves Afghanistan (msn.com)

So the one shining moment was five people that disobeyed orders.   

Edit.   At one time we would have had a massive airlift, a plane train to demonstrate American ability.   It would have been a giant slap in the face of the Taliban as their own people chose to live with the infidel in America.   The brain drain would have crippled the Taliban and helped America grow.   We screwed up so badly (Not just President Biden, but all the Republicans that refused to allow refugees to come to America, even when their own party created them.)  

H

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 941]

we were done with the mission in Afganistan 3 weeks after we arrived and should have left and never have gone into Iraq

biggest waste of human life and our tax dollars in my lifetime by far

at least Joe had the balls to stop the waste, it was NEVER going to end nicely

 

[Blue Crab 2,452]

11 hours ago, mathystuff said:

13 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I'm totally ok with that. Nobody loves the top dog. They have to smell our butts. Pragmatism 101.

Yeah, that's it.

It isn't the invasions of other countries for made up reasons, the overthrowing of legitimate governments, the killings by drone strikes, the torture or any other actual reason.

Everyone is just jelly of how great the US is.

They have to smell our butts. Pragmatism 101.

Did I stutter?

[Pertinacious Tom 1,925]

15 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

This is similar to my own analysis . .    

Jimmy Carter deserves some opprobrium as well . . 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/18/2046703/-The-USA-Created-the-Cancer-that-Consumed-Afghanistan-in-1979

And as a bonus, if you click you can see that I got a time out at Kos !!

They did you a favor.

Why do you use debunked media sources instead of ones with a clean fact check record?

Overall, we rate the Daily Kos strongly Left Biased based on story selection that almost exclusively favors the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to non-vetted content and a few failed fact check and misleading claims.

[Blue Crab 2,452]

1 hour ago, chum said:

That is pretty damning. What say you AJ? Your source is shit.

And his basement blog "sources" are worse. 

[Steam Flyer 8,413]

1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

2 hours ago, chum said:

That is pretty damning. What say you AJ? Your source is shit.

And his basement blog "sources" are worse. 

There are a lot of people who rave about "bloggers in pajamas" being the source of truth.... there probably are a few.

One of the promises of the internet is that real people would get to tell what is really happening. And some of this is happening, but it gets drowned out by legions of Queen Dilddo wanna-bees making shit up.

Turns out, the profession of journalism is actually a thing, who knew?

- DSK

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

5 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

They did you a favor.

Why do you use debunked media sources instead of ones with a clean fact check record?

Overall, we rate the Daily Kos strongly Left Biased based on story selection that almost exclusively favors the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to non-vetted content and a few failed fact check and misleading claims.

You do not give a source for that evaluation of a source. 

Irony is not dead after all. 

[Bus Driver 6,894]

1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

You do not give a source for that evaluation of a source. 

Irony is not dead after all. 

If you'd been paying attention, there is really one site that keeps getting used for this.

The language they use is instantly recognizable.

Media Bias/Fact Check

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

28 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

If you'd been paying attention, there is really one site that keeps getting used for this.

We're supposed to guess where the unsourced source originates ?? 

Nope. 

And I have been increasingly skeptical of MBFC - rating FAUX as equally truthful as CNN and MSNBC is ridiculous. 

Very occasionally, I have used MBFC; I won't let it happen again. 

This is what Wiki has to say . . 

The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst".^[2] The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific."^[3]

[Blue Crab 2,452]

This is a big issue. Trumpets don't trust CNN. Smarter folks see Fox for what it is. 

Where do we go from here?

[Bus Driver 6,894]

1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

We're supposed to guess where the unsourced source originates ?? 

Nope. 

And I have been increasingly skeptical of MBFC - rating FAUX as equally truthful as CNN and MSNBC is ridiculous. 

Very occasionally, I have used MBFC; I won't let it happen again. 

This is what Wiki has to say . . 

The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst".^[2] The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific."^[3]

Wiki?  Really?

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

9 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Wiki?  Really?

That wiki source has cites . .   How about you ?? 

[Blue Crab 2,452]

6 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

That wiki source has cites . .   How about you ?? 

I like Wiki too. Sure, someone could post some crap but the crap wouldn't be up there long without correction. As always, ya might want to think about it before doing anything rash. 

[BeSafe 1,541]

17 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Where do we go from here?

Honestly?

Read lots of different sources and compare data. If there's a fact they all agree on, it's probably true - not absolute - but probably.  Truth is always covered in layers of perception.  That takes a while to clean off and there's really not many options to speed the process.

But truth is really overrated in terms of populations.  Evolution has selected us for belief, not truth.  Not all snakes are poisonous but your ancestors were more likely to have babies if they acted as if all snakes are poisonous.  That's the human condition.  Pick your faith - Maddow, Carlson, or Jesus - whatever works for you in the community in which you live.  Code switch when necessary.

Support your friends and family, help others when possible, and be safe.

[Blue Crab 2,452]

11 minutes ago, BeSafe said:

Honestly?

Honestly no. I wasn't talking about you and I.

Again, 

17 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

This is a big issue. Trumpets don't trust CNN. Smarter folks see Fox for what it is. 

Where do we go from here?

Or, how do we get Retards to start thinking? 

[BeSafe 1,541]

23 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Or, how do we get Retards to start thinking? 

I don't think you can.

In the human population, there's about 10% of people that are left handed.  In Zebra herds, there are a similar percentage that rotate against the natural spin of the herd.  Why?  As best as we can tell, to be 'distracting', a certain number of zebra have to go against the grain or else the overall protective benefits of stripes go away.  They aren't distracting if all the creatures move in the same direction.

Fun fact, the 'wrong way' zebras die at about the same rate as the 'right way' zebras even though there's 10x more right way zebras.  Thus evolution.  Follow the herd, do well.  But some number of the herd MUST go the wrong way or the overall herd suffers.  Sucks to be left handed.  We appreciate your sacrifice - not really, we blame you for being stupid, or being born left handed, or choosing not to be right handed, or whatever - but 'thank you for your sacrifice' nonetheless.  Its right-tighty, you lefty-loosely nub.

The majority - "the Retards" - don't benefit from the truth.  They benefit from belief.  That's what we're programmed to do by default and why history rhymes so often.

I think its part of the human condition.  I use to believe that people would come around with better knowledge but as the meme goes, the Internet made the sum of human knowledge available to almost anyone and we mostly seem to use it to watch cat videos and porn.  That's what it means to be average.

[Bus Driver 6,894]

8 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

That wiki source has cites . .   How about you ?? 

A student turns in a research paper in which all the works cited are from Wiki.  How do you respond?

[Blue Crab 2,452]

 

53 minutes ago, BeSafe said:

Its righty-tighty, you lefty-loosely nub.

I've always enjoyed being that guy that knows weed-eater head threads are the other way around. Life is little things.

[Bus Driver 6,894]

32 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

 

I've always enjoyed being that guy that knows weed-eater head threads are the other way around. Life is little things.

Same with room fans.

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

A student turns in a research paper in which all the works cited are from Wiki.  How do you respond?

I used to require that students turn in the notes they were taking for their papers before the papers were due. 

So for the example above, their notes from Columbia Journalism Review had to show more than just that MB/FC is amateurish. 

It was a lot of work, but that's why they paid me the big bucks. 

Furthermore, just because WIKI carries a source does not mean the source should not be read. WIKI is massive. How many good sources on just about anything are NOT in WIKI ??  (Note to self. Send them a few bucks) WIKI is an excellent place to look for sources. 

I hope that helps. 

I've been retired for a good while now. Kinda miss it in some ways. 

[AJ Oliver 1,925]

Very good background article by the intrepid historian Michael Parenti (from 2008) 

My perspective is similar . .  

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2008/12/02/afghanistan-another-untold-story