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Direct lead acid to lithium replacement batteries


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There are a couple of threads about lithium batteries but thought I would start one about replacing a battery bank of lead acid AGM directly to Lithium.

I have 2 Mastervolt AGM 160's and a std Volvo 2D-40 alternator (115 amp)? 

Just use the boat for day sailing and long day races.

What are the advantages other than weight savings?

What are the simplest options out there? 

 

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Faster charging, negligible self-discharge, longer life and lower weight.

That said, you can forget any kind of "drop in" solution if you're using a stock alternator with internal automotive-style regulator as you suggest. Of course, you should have forgotten that approach with your AGM batteries, too, as it wouldn't charge them properly.

If you use  the boat for day sailing and long day races, your 320AH of AGM was way, way, way too large. You can likely get by on 50AH and I'd recommend a cheap gel solution that's replaced every 2-3 years rather than a lithium solution.

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I've been watching a few YouTube videos (the font of all knowledge nowadays) and there are a lot of people touting the drop in LiFePo battries. They are certainly pushing the drop in factor ro what seems to be an RV crowd.

This guys does a lot of vids, he has cut them open to dissect them. Surprisingly the cheap Chinese LiFePo's have pretty sketchy internal BMS's.

There's an American company he likes that seems reasonable but I can't at the monent find the link.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Moonduster said:

You can find Battle Born Batteries here.

I don't know anything about them. They may well be great. Still, their web site rubs me the wrong way. If I'm reading it right they've been in business for a couple of years and they're extending a 10 year warranty on batteries built from off the shelf bits that they don't control the QA on. Do they really base their 10-15 year expected battery life exclusively on extrapolating the nominal cycle life of individual cells? Are there not other failure points? Can we spread those cycles out indefinitely? At one cycle a year will they get 3000 years of battery life? Meh.

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9 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Dude, I just posted the link for the Drew, who is new to the internet. 

Hardly. Your cycnicism is misplaced.

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17 hours ago, weightless said:

I don't know anything about them. They may well be great. Still, their web site rubs me the wrong way. If I'm reading it right they've been in business for a couple of years and they're extending a 10 year warranty on batteries built from off the shelf bits that they don't control the QA on. Do they really base their 10-15 year expected battery life exclusively on extrapolating the nominal cycle life of individual cells? Are there not other failure points? Can we spread those cycles out indefinitely? At one cycle a year will they get 3000 years of battery life? Meh.

Their warrantee ends in 8 years (then 2 years prorated). And yeah, I'd bet money that at one cycle a year they will last 8 years. 

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I have Battle Born batteries on my boat. The founder is a Caltech PhD, and actually did a lot of scientific tests to figure out what really works, what really matters. Their costs are close to the minimum, their customer service is simply awesome, they understand what they are selling.

Originally, I had 4x6v Trojan T105s for a 12v system. That is a very typical arrangement. The big problem was that the batteries needed to be someplace easy to reach, as water needs to be topped up, and the top of the batteries need to be cleaned, as a frequent service task. Also, the weight meant the location had to be close to the center of the boat.

After massive frustration with diesel, which any rational person will admit are fundamentally flawed power plants for sailboats, I removed all that smelly, noisy, heavy, vibrating, limited range shit and went with electric propulsion, which is better by far in every way. Just the facts.

So I also changed to a 48v system, putting four 12v "drop in" batteries in series, for the propulsion, and 48v-12v buck converters for 12v.

Two key lessons: First, the charger **must** charge each battery individually. Charging across a series of separate batteries, each with their own BMS, simple DOES NOT WORK. Second, a dynamic battery balancer is needed. Several are coming on the market right now, as everyone has learned this lesson. $100.

The LiFePO4 batteries are much lighter, and rarely need to be accessed, so they can be located in out of the way locations, which free up that valuable space where the lead acid batteries were. That space is now much more useful for stowage. The batteries are now under the quarter berths where the fuel tank was. The batteries weigh less than the fuel in the (now removed and resold) tank.

Its so nice having an infinite range boat. Have not been to the fuel dock. Fuel docks closed for repair?  No problem.

Its so nice to have essentially zero concern about propulsion: never stalls, arbitrarily low thrust and extremely low noise makes marina maneuvering fundamentally superior and stress free.

 

 

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I can't ever decide whether your analysis are narcissistic, naive or just stupid.

  • Remote watering systems for flooded batteries are simple, inexpensive and have been available for decades
  • There is no "massive frustration" with diesel engines, there are perhaps a billion of them working perfectly well in every application you can possibly imagine all over the world
  • A DC propulsion system is not "better by far in every way", it is a compromise towards a goal, just like anything else, and for most, it is the wrong compromise. Those are the facts.
  • Diesel engines are not "fundamentally flawed" power plants for yachts
  • The problems (and solutions) for charging batteries connected in series have been well understood since the invention of chemical cells. If you're only "discovering" these lessons now, you haven't done your homework.
  • Your boat stalls every time you run the battery down to low-voltage cut out.
  • Your boat is "infinite range" just like any other sail boat - there's this thing called wind, you may have heard of it.
  • You auxiliary propulsion neither detracts nor enhances that "range".
  • There is nothing "fundamentally superior" about maneuvering with a dc propulsion system
  • There is nothing "stressful" about maneuvering in a marina
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On 12/21/2019 at 10:51 AM, carcrash said:

Two key lessons: First, the charger **must** charge each battery individually. Charging across a series of separate batteries, each with their own BMS, simple DOES NOT WORK. Second, a dynamic battery balancer is needed. Several are coming on the market right now, as everyone has learned this lesson. $100.

 

 

 

Very interested in electric propulsion and I just ended up with 4 24V Battle Born batteries.  

How do you charge individual batteries separately when their voltage is different than the bank voltage?  In your case you have 4 12V batteries and a 48V bank.  I'm missing the puzzle piece here.  A 12V charger or a 48V charger?  How is it wired?

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There are two different strategies, both are a pain in the ass:

  1. You can get yourself some massive contactors and build a mode switch. In one position, the batteries are connected in series and the chargers are disconnected. In the other position, the batteries are disconnected from one another and the chargers are connected. Figure on $300 per battery and a wiring nightmare.
  2. You can find a battery balancing product like this one. Figure on $100 per battery and a wiring nightmare.

The real solution to the problem you're trying to solve is to buy a battery that either:

  1. Is of the voltage you're trying to achieve and wire them in parallel instead of in series
  2. Has a BMS that's designed for series connected batteries and supports inter-BMS communication to achieve the balancing

 

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2 hours ago, Roleur said:

Very interested in electric propulsion and I just ended up with 4 24V Battle Born batteries.  

How do you charge individual batteries separately when their voltage is different than the bank voltage?  In your case you have 4 12V batteries and a 48V bank.  I'm missing the puzzle piece here.  A 12V charger or a 48V charger?  How is it wired?

why not ask the folks at BattleBorn?

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5 hours ago, Roleur said:

Very interested in electric propulsion and I just ended up with 4 24V Battle Born batteries.  

How do you charge individual batteries separately when their voltage is different than the bank voltage?  In your case you have 4 12V batteries and a 48V bank.  I'm missing the puzzle piece here.  A 12V charger or a 48V charger?  How is it wired?

Battleborn sold me a charger that charges 4 separate 12v batteries: a DualPro PS4. Each battery is individually connected to one of four pairs of charging leads from the charger. This charger does balance during charging, but that just ensures they batteries start at the same level.

The dynamic balancer is needed to ensure the bank does not collapse with the weakest battery in the bank. Let's say three batteries are good for 90AH each, but one is good for only 10AH. After using just 10x4 AH, the low battery BMS disconnects that battery, disabling the entire bank. Using a dynamic balancer during discharge, that weak battery is being kept above BMS disconnect voltage due to the transfer from the other batteries in the bank. The result is that nearly the entire 3x90+10 will be usable.

By the way, since you asked about electric propulsion: you don't need anywhere NEAR as much power as your diesel or gas engine. I got a 10KW motor, and it is serious overkill. I achieve the same speed using 4.8KW as I did with the Yanmar 3GM30F flat out. Usually, I use about 800 watts to 1500 watts.

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4 hours ago, Moonduster said:

There are two different strategies, both are a pain in the ass:

  1. You can get yourself some massive contactors and build a mode switch. In one position, the batteries are connected in series and the chargers are disconnected. In the other position, the batteries are disconnected from one another and the chargers are connected. Figure on $300 per battery and a wiring nightmare.
  2. You can find a battery balancing product like this one. Figure on $100 per battery and a wiring nightmare.

The real solution to the problem you're trying to solve is to buy a battery that either:

  1. Is of the voltage you're trying to achieve and wire them in parallel instead of in series
  2. Has a BMS that's designed for series connected batteries and supports inter-BMS communication to achieve the balancing

 

No, its much easier than that, although I suppose one could do that.

I just have a 4x12v charger, which charges each battery individually. There are two small diameter wires that run from the charger to each individual battery. No switches whatsoever, the individual batteries remain in series still providing 48v to the vessel while charging. The specific charger I have is the Dual Pro PS4, but there are many others available. These chargers are very common for golf carts which of course are everywhere.

Hypothetically, I agree with your "real solution #1" however such batteries are not widely available at good prices yet. One can make them, but like most things, its harder than one thinks: the devil is in the details, and those details are not easy to discern, and a lot of experimentation will occur (damaged batteries etc) before the devil begins to be understood. I went with Battle Born because the founder is a PhD from Caltech, and did the science experiments to understand the technology: few do. It takes a lot of expertise and time and money.

I agree with your "real solution #2" and others do too. There are now BMS being created -- very new to the market -- that do communicate between peers. Until then, a good solution is a separate dynamic battery balancer, which seems to have the same effect as the BMS each communicating. Such balancers are cheap, about $100, and are new products just coming to market from several of the top marine electrical brands.

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2 hours ago, carcrash said:

Battleborn sold me a charger that charges 4 separate 12v batteries: a DualPro PS4. Each battery is individually connected to one of four pairs of charging leads from the charger. This charger does balance during charging, but that just ensures they batteries start at the same level.

The dynamic balancer is needed to ensure the bank does not collapse with the weakest battery in the bank. Let's say three batteries are good for 90AH each, but one is good for only 10AH. After using just 10x4 AH, the low battery BMS disconnects that battery, disabling the entire bank. Using a dynamic balancer during discharge, that weak battery is being kept above BMS disconnect voltage due to the transfer from the other batteries in the bank. The result is that nearly the entire 3x90+10 will be usable.

By the way, since you asked about electric propulsion: you don't need anywhere NEAR as much power as your diesel or gas engine. I got a 10KW motor, and it is serious overkill. I achieve the same speed using 4.8KW as I did with the Yanmar 3GM30F flat out. Usually, I use about 800 watts to 1500 watts.

What do you do when 4 batteries isn’t enough?  I figure 4 BB batteries (4.8kW) would get me about 1 hour of motoring slowly.  

What electric motor do you have? 

Discover makes a nice 48V battery that would seem like a good option for electric propulsion.  Not a big difference in price if you are comparing similar kW.

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I’m really curious if Shearwater gets an electric auxiliary.  Please keep up the thread. I’d love to have electric, but it doesn’t seem very practical today on a racer/cruiser.

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There is a J/121 with an Oceanvolt motor in TX.  This Fall they did the 150nm Harvest Moon Regatta (offshore TX Coast) and won overall.  It is something like 20+nm to get to the start line.

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I suspect I'll regret this (PUI and all) but why can't you just charge your series connected batteries individually from any old isolated power supply while in circuit? If your Battle Born or whatever drop in with BMS see's 12 volts on its terminals how does it know that its neg isn't earth ground? If you attach an adequate isolated power supply to its neg and pos will it not just go ahead and charge and balance as it would if it were not in a series string?

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6 hours ago, weightless said:

I suspect I'll regret this (PUI and all) but why can't you just charge your series connected batteries individually from any old isolated power supply while in circuit? If your Battle Born or whatever drop in with BMS see's 12 volts on its terminals how does it know that its neg isn't earth ground? If you attach an adequate isolated power supply to its neg and pos will it not just go ahead and charge and balance as it would if it were not in a series string?

A reasonable solution. Your electrical theory is sound. High parts count may impact cost and reliability. Likely requires heavy inductive components for isolation.

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There is a J/121 with an Oceanvolt motor in TX.  This Fall they did the 150nm Harvest Moon Regatta (offshore TX Coast) and won overall.  It is something like 20+nm to get to the start line.

And there is the big issue.   Most offshore races have a 4-8 hour minimum at near hull speed requirement for coastal races and some require even more.   To do near hull speed for 4-8 hours takes a lot of Amps.    It would take a huge and heavy bank to meet that requirement.   

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8 hours ago, solosailor said:

And there is the big issue.   Most offshore races have a 4-8 hour minimum at near hull speed requirement for coastal races and some require even more.   To do near hull speed for 4-8 hours takes a lot of Amps.    It would take a huge and heavy bank to meet that requirement.   

A Honda generator?

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Well the two most common small Honda generators output 1000 & 2000 watts peak.   That is in AC.   So to charge you will also need a heavy shoreside charger.   Then there is their low output.   1HP is .75kw.   How much to drive a 40ft boat near hull speed?  More than several kw/per hour times the number of hours of run time desired.   It's one huge pack.    Yes you can get very long run times at efficient slow boat speeds but most offshore race rules have a minimum speed requirement which will crew amps very fast.

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An isolated supply will work just fine. Four of them.

The motoring requirement applies to cat 0, 1, 2 & 3 events and is eight hours at a speed in knots equal to the square root of the water line in feet, so 6 knots for a 36' dwl.

There is no possible way to achieve that with a dc solution for even twice the weight of a diesel. 

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On 12/30/2019 at 5:32 AM, carcrash said:

Battleborn sold me a charger that charges 4 separate 12v batteries: a DualPro PS4. Each battery is individually connected to one of four pairs of charging leads from the charger. This charger does balance during charging, but that just ensures they batteries start at the same level.

The dynamic balancer is needed to ensure the bank does not collapse with the weakest battery in the bank. Let's say three batteries are good for 90AH each, but one is good for only 10AH. After using just 10x4 AH, the low battery BMS disconnects that battery, disabling the entire bank. Using a dynamic balancer during discharge, that weak battery is being kept above BMS disconnect voltage due to the transfer from the other batteries in the bank. The result is that nearly the entire 3x90+10 will be usable.

By the way, since you asked about electric propulsion: you don't need anywhere NEAR as much power as your diesel or gas engine. I got a 10KW motor, and it is serious overkill. I achieve the same speed using 4.8KW as I did with the Yanmar 3GM30F flat out. Usually, I use about 800 watts to 1500 watts.

comparing electric power to IC engines is hard as there appears to be no standard to measuring electric motors

they do look good as usually peak torque available at very low revs just like a diesel with a cpp

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800 to 1500 watt to propel what at what speed?    In calm conditions I can do 5.8k with a 3.5HP outboard on my 30' boat....   very easily driven.  With the 3hp Torqeedo 1003 I could do 4.5 - 4.7k.   With the Torpedo 2.0 (5hp equivalent) I could do 6 - 6.5k and that took 2000 watts.    

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I noticed above some absurd optimism "(diesel) is a fundamentally flawed power plant for sailboats" and severe doubt in regards to how great electric propulsion is, and a curious reference to a J/121. With hopeful optimism, I did a little looking around and with a broad blush at weights (e.g. +/- 25%), share it with all of you. 

- There is public information available on the J/121 mentioned above, powered by electric propulsion here. https://oceanvolt.com/testimonials/electric-jboats-j121/
- The electric engine is 65/143 kg/(lbs), the standard diesel engine & gearbox is the 3YM30ACE+SD20 3GM30 is 157/(346) kg/(lbs) https://www.offshoreservices.fr/en/yanmar/
- The 8 dedicated propulsion batteries total 153/(337) kg/(lbs) https://lithiumwerks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Module-Range-042919.pdf
- The equivalent diesel fuel is about  14/(30) kg/(lbs) https://www.topspeed.com/cars/warp-coils-seem-closer-to-reality-than-a-battery-with-energy-density-of-gasoline-ar185365.html
* the diesel solution appears to weighs less, e.g. electric = (65 + 153) kg vs diesel = ( 157 + 14) kg; I certainly would think a J/121 owner is not going to take on a weight penalty, so perhaps after accounting for the supporting components of each system and adding the weight of the fluids in the diesel engine, they come out close? 

How cool is that?  Very!  But wait. Maybe (electric) propulsion is a fundamentally flawed power plant based on where you sail?  
* Whatever the range of the J/121 is, with just 4.35 gallons of fuel it isn't much. Great for local racing, but my average away race on a J/109 has me leaving the dock with at least double that, especially with light summer winds on Long Island Sound. To double the electric range of this J/121, is just out of the question, the weight and volume are huge. Comparatively, for a diesel, all that is needed is another 16.4 liters / 4.35 gallons of fuel, easily carried in a small container. 
* I am curious what the best method is for charging and balancing those 8 batteries, and how much that charger weighs? How does that weight not become a terrible penalty to the J/121?  What does a race boat owner need to do, to make that workable? Perhaps a very slow charge? Maybe the charger is kept off-boat when not in use? Maybe batteries are primarily recharged by the wind while underway, using the electric engine as a generator?
 

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you don't need anywhere NEAR as much power as your diesel or gas engine

The absurdity of this statement should be obvious - you need EXACTLY the same power to go exactly the same speed in exactly the same conditions. The propeller cares not whether the energy put into the shaft is from a diesel engine or an electric motor.

comparing electric power to IC engines is hard as there appears to be no standard to measuring electric motors

This statement suffers from the same faulty logic, the comparisons are simple it's the data that's nearly impossible to attain. The reason is that it's frightfully difficult to know how much power a diesel engine is producing as it only generates as much power as is required to turn the shaft at a given RPM. Just because you have a 30HP diesel in your boat, it is not generating 30HP if only 10 is required to turn the shaft at the present RPM. The required output power from a diesel operating in the mid-RPM range is frightfully small when the boat has a reasonably sized prop because of the exponential characteristic of the prop loading.

What should be evident is that if you replace that 30HP diesel with an electric motor and that motor draws 50A at 48V to move the boat at, say, 5 knots, then the electric motor is consuming 2400W of power and with an efficiency of, say, 80%, it's producing about, 2.5hp, and provided you're using the same gearbox and propeller, that's exactly the same power the diesel was producing to achieve the same 5 knots, regardless of whether that was a 10hp or 30hp diesel.

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14 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

you don't need anywhere NEAR as much power as your diesel or gas engine

The absurdity of this statement should be obvious - you need EXACTLY the same power to go exactly the same speed in exactly the same conditions. The propeller cares not whether the energy put into the shaft is from a diesel engine or an electric motor.

comparing electric power to IC engines is hard as there appears to be no standard to measuring electric motors

This statement suffers from the same faulty logic, the comparisons are simple it's the data that's nearly impossible to attain. The reason is that it's frightfully difficult to know how much power a diesel engine is producing as it only generates as much power as is required to turn the shaft at a given RPM. Just because you have a 30HP diesel in your boat, it is not generating 30HP if only 10 is required to turn the shaft at the present RPM. The required output power from a diesel operating in the mid-RPM range is frightfully small when the boat has a reasonably sized prop because of the exponential characteristic of the prop loading.

What should be evident is that if you replace that 30HP diesel with an electric motor and that motor draws 50A at 48V to move the boat at, say, 5 knots, then the electric motor is consuming 2400W of power and with an efficiency of, say, 80%, it's producing about, 2.5hp, and provided you're using the same gearbox and propeller, that's exactly the same power the diesel was producing to achieve the same 5 knots, regardless of whether that was a 10hp or 30hp diesel.

Yes, and well stated!
 

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5 hours ago, b393capt said:

I noticed above some absurd optimism "(diesel) is a fundamentally flawed power plant for sailboats" and severe doubt in regards to how great electric propulsion is, and a curious reference to a J/121. With hopeful optimism, I did a little looking around and with a broad blush at weights (e.g. +/- 25%), share it with all of you. 

- There is public information available on the J/121 mentioned above, powered by electric propulsion here. https://oceanvolt.com/testimonials/electric-jboats-j121/
- The electric engine is 65/143 kg/(lbs), the standard diesel engine & gearbox is the 3YM30ACE+SD20 3GM30 is 157/(346) kg/(lbs) https://www.offshoreservices.fr/en/yanmar/
- The 8 dedicated propulsion batteries total 153/(337) kg/(lbs) https://lithiumwerks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Module-Range-042919.pdf
- The equivalent diesel fuel is about  14/(30) kg/(lbs) https://www.topspeed.com/cars/warp-coils-seem-closer-to-reality-than-a-battery-with-energy-density-of-gasoline-ar185365.html
* the diesel solution appears to weighs less, e.g. electric = (65 + 153) kg vs diesel = ( 157 + 14) kg; I certainly would think a J/121 owner is not going to take on a weight penalty, so perhaps after accounting for the supporting components of each system and adding the weight of the fluids in the diesel engine, they come out close? 

How cool is that?  Very!  But wait. Maybe (electric) propulsion is a fundamentally flawed power plant based on where you sail?  
* Whatever the range of the J/121 is, with just 4.35 gallons of fuel it isn't much. Great for local racing, but my average away race on a J/109 has me leaving the dock with at least double that, especially with light summer winds on Long Island Sound. To double the electric range of this J/121, is just out of the question, the weight and volume are huge. Comparatively, for a diesel, all that is needed is another 16.4 liters / 4.35 gallons of fuel, easily carried in a small container. 
* I am curious what the best method is for charging and balancing those 8 batteries, and how much that charger weighs? How does that weight not become a terrible penalty to the J/121?  What does a race boat owner need to do, to make that workable? Perhaps a very slow charge? Maybe the charger is kept off-boat when not in use? Maybe batteries are primarily recharged by the wind while underway, using the electric engine as a generator?
 

I have the 12V version of those Valence batteries (U27-12XP) on my boat. Each one has a label capacity of 144Ah and I've got three of them in a 1S3P configuration to give a house bank of 432Ah at 12V. In the absence of active cooling, Valence recommends charging at up to C/2, which corresponds to 216A on my boat.

The U27-24XP is identical to my batteries except that half the cells are wired in series internally so the voltage doubles to 24V and the capacity is halved to 72Ah. Because the J/121 is using a 48V motor, presumably its 8 batteries are in a 2S4P configuration with a bank capacity of 288Ah. That would correspond to a max recommended charging rate of about 144A. 

Valence uses a split BMS topology, with high current FETs and some balancing electronics built into the battery module case plus an external brain box that connects to the batteries via a CANbus connection. The batteries also connect together via CANbus. Unlike most "internal BMS" batteries, the FETs on the Valence XP modules can handle the full rated 1C output of the battery continuously and will tolerate 2C for up to 30 seconds. The external BMS manages both intermodule balancing and, via CAN control of the electronics built in to the battery modules, intramodule balancing. Voltage, current, temperature, charge/discharge rate, and other parameters are available from the BMS on the CANbus using their (sadly) proprietary software. The BMS can control a CAN-enabled charger or, if you use a conventional charger, it puts out a 0-5VDC analog voltage encoding SOC, warning signals, and other analog/TTL signals you can use to throttle charging sources. The BMS can also control up to four charging and/or discharging contactors, depending on how the BMS is configured.

I used Valence components in an FDA-cleared clinical diagnostic instrument I designed and I worked with them closely throughout the process. Their specifications are generally very conservative and their quality is high. Out of several hundred batteries, I think we only ever had one that didn't work properly out of the box. We beat the hell out of them with cycles of 65% discharge in 60 minutes followed by C/2 recharging several times a day. When we weren't sloshing electrons back and forth as fast as possible, we were holding them at 100% SOC for weeks at a time with no apparent ill effects on rated cycle life. Their stuff is first-rate and can be found in the DaVinci surgical robot and other clinical gear as well as large stationary and mobile installations.

I'd take their stuff over Battleborn in a heartbeat.

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Istream, do you know where to get the Valence external BMS?  I see it on the Lithiumwerks website, but no place of sale.  I also have 2 of the U27-12XP batteries.  One has been on our boat for 1.5 years, but no external BMS.  Pretty sure its life is being shortened as a result.

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2 hours ago, Roleur said:

Istream, do you know where to get the Valence external BMS?  I see it on the Lithiumwerks website, but no place of sale.  I also have 2 of the U27-12XP batteries.  One has been on our boat for 1.5 years, but no external BMS.  Pretty sure its life is being shortened as a result.

I'd contact Peter Guggenheim, Technical Sales Manager - North America. His number is 512-415-0756. He can hook you up and put you in touch with their tech support folks to program it for your configuration or supply you with the tools to do it yourself.

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+1 more for Battle Born drop—ins. 500 Ah for two solid years and getting ready to add 3 additional 100 Ah units to the system.  Can’t do that with lead...  
 

I still think reliable electric propulsion for any significant duration of time is a thing of the future, but thanks to those of you vetting out the systems.  I’ll stick with my Perk 108 for the time being.  I do however believe that lead-acid as boat power storage medium is well on its way toward the Endangered Species List  

Pretty sure the OP was asking about direct replacement for FLA and not where to source used medical shit to assemble a homemade system. 
 

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5 minutes ago, thereefgeek said:

+1 more for Battle Born drop—ins. 500 Ah for two solid years and getting ready to add 3 additional 100 Ah units to the system.  Can’t do that with lead...  
 

I still think reliable electric propulsion for any significant duration of time is a thing of the future, but thanks to those of you vetting out the systems.  I’ll stick with my Perk 108 for the time being.  I do however believe that lead-acid as boat power storage medium is well on its way toward the Endangered Species List  

Pretty sure the OP was asking about direct replacement for FLA and not where to source used medical shit to assemble a homemade system. 
 

I'm pretty sure of that too but the thread drifted to the J/121 and questions about its Valence batteries. Sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities.

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21 hours ago, IStream said:

I'm pretty sure of that too but the thread drifted to the J/121 and questions about its Valence batteries. Sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities.

Back to drop-in replacements of FLA house/starter batteries.

Would you agree the following has been addressed?  By which drop in battery companies?
     Self Fire Risk, chemistry - the chemistry is not the same as cell phone batteries, extending tendrils / dont create shorts that lead to fires 
     Self Fire Risk, misuse - products include internal shut off relays to prevent over voltage, over load, over discharge, charging when over discharged
     Restarting batteries that have cut-off, but have capacity available, is user friendly (or) automatic (e.g. reduced load)

Have any vendors not overcome the need for the following pre-requisites before using a drop-in replacement?
    No need for fuse upgrades (std fuses are not sufficient) -  fuses and shut-off included in drop-in replacement
    No need for battery monitors (e.g. SG100, Link20, etc.) although they are still a good idea.
    No need for smart regulator to monitor temp of battery (BMS has this covered)

Have any vendors overcome the need for the following pre-requisites before using a drop-in replacement?
     Two batteries (and) Isolate engine starter & engine battery, from house loads and house battery 
     Battery compartment needs to accept odd dimensioned batteries
     Upgraded alternator (to withstand the continuous demand during charging, not found with FLA)
     Smart Regulator on the alternator (e.g. Balmar MC-614) with alternator temp monitoring option installed (MC-TS-A)
     Shore Charger handles wider range of voltages than std FLA

How can the above list of points be improved?  

What are the issues replacing FLA, other than cost, that vendors could do to make you switch? 
 

Edited by b393capt
accidently submitted while still writing.
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