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57 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Here's CRUISING WORLD's updated 2019 list of 40 best cruising boats. I like it. Figured you CA guys neeeded something new to talk about.

https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/40-best-sailboats/

The Moore 24 is the 40th all-time best CRUISING boat ever? I want some of what they're smoking... no wait, I gotta drive home...

This list primarily reminds me what an old fogey I am, I have no knowledge whatever of the ten newest boats on the list. Very interesting range of types and configurations though.

FB- Doug

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49 minutes ago, chester said:

 

bitter sweet the inclusion of several ontario built boats...RIP canadian boat building.

+++++++11111111.

I love my C & C and respect and admire Canadian builds and designs...no wait...not the Grampian 26.   Ewwww.

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I had a Pearson Vanguard for many years.  I would not have put it on that list.  I now have a J/32 - a far, far better boat.

Running joke with my wife is that since the J/32 is a couple of inches shorter than the Vanguard, I've downsized.

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21 minutes ago, slap said:

I had a Pearson Vanguard for many years.  I would not have put it on that list.  I now have a J/32 - a far, far better boat.

Running joke with my wife is that since the J/32 is a couple of inches shorter than the Vanguard, I've downsized.

I talked to a Vanguard owner who disagreed with the notion it had rugged construction.  In his view, it was designed as a LIS raceboat.

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8 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

I talked to a Vanguard owner who disagreed with the notion it had rugged construction.  In his view, it was designed as a LIS raceboat.

Rugged and good sailing capabilites are not synonomous.  I had a CCA design and quickly realized I did not like sailing at a 25% heel all the time, nocking my head and wanted to go to windward once in awhile and so I jumped ship.

But if yer dollars are sparse and ya wanna get out there.  There ya go!

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3 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

I talked to a Vanguard owner who disagreed with the notion it had rugged construction.  In his view, it was designed as a LIS raceboat.

It had sloppy, heavy construction.    The hull was thick, but not particularly well done - the wetting out of the fiberglass was poorly done in spots that were reasonably easy to access during construction. The tabbing of the bulkheads was somewhat careless, and the port toerail had been installed by idiots causing endless leaking problems.   They had put the toerail too far outboard, moved it inboard, and fastened it down but did not fill in the old holes they had put in.  Since the toerail covered the old holes it wasn't visible from the deck.

LIS raceboat?   Light air performance was pretty bad.  It didn't help that the boat weighed a ton more than the design weight.

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It seems to be a list of 40 grounbreaking or notable boats, but not necessarily the best. The Moore is a great example of an early UDLB, the Catalina 30 represents the pinacle of volume production, and the Swan is indeed one of the best looking out there. I am not sure this buys them a spot on the list of best cruising boats. 

Horses for courses, but I wonder if Bob might even put an Esprit or Nordic 40 higher on the list than the V40.

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That Jeanneau 43 DS is too ugly to belong there - looks like an Imperial Storm Trooper.

The Alberg 30 was pretty and well built but stupidly narrow and cramped below. The one I sailed also had the worst weather helm I have ever experienced - got blisters on my hands from steering one trip across Georgia Strait in 20 knots.

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this list was fun, and got me clicking around Cruising World. Landed on Best Performance Cruiser (Bene 30.1). And I quote:

“It’s a cool boat, a nice little starter boat for a family getting into the sport. At $160,000"

Who plops down 160k just getting into the sport haha?

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

Steele:

Nope, I'm happy with the Valiant 40 in the top spot, for a number of reasons. Not sure where I'd be today without the Valiant 40. I might be on the road, playing bass for the ROLLING STONES.

Your Tayana 37 sure got a lot of dreams going....

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Hey Bob,

Nice to see so many of your designs on the top or near the top.  Of course they're a few on the list everybody will quibble with like the Sabre 36 (average) or the Gozzard 36 (huh) but a good overview of a lot of good boats.

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18 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Hey Bob,

Nice to see so many of your designs on the top or near the top.  Of course they're a few on the list everybody will quibble with like the Sabre 36 (average) or the Gozzard 36 (huh) but a good overview of a lot of good boats.

My 16 year old went to the Annapolis Boat Show with us last year, and with all the bling on hand, the boat he loved most was a big Gozzard.  It looked like a pirate ship, I was told. 

Any sailboat that impresses an electronics addicted teen and gives them a romantic image of sailing, has to get some credit. 

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10 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Here's CRUISING WORLD's updated 2019 list of 40 best cruising boats. I like it. Figured you CA guys neeeded something new to talk about.

https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboats/40-best-sailboats/

Congrats on the #1 slot!  I’m curious if you knew you were designing a big winning design when you first designed the valient 40.  
I have designed things I was not extremely excited about only to find them to be very successful and vice versa 

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Interesting list, pulling so many different variations of what people want.  It would be interesting to know if the top ten has a " top two or five" for most people.  The HR42 has always been a irrational favorite of mine.  Going down the list it's no way to definitely.

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It's funny, with the exception of the Arpege, the French boats that made it to the list would not be considered "great boats" on this side of the Atlantic.

May be the good designs didn't cross the Atlantic commercially but IMHO, boats like the Gin Fizz, at least one of the early 70s plywood boats, the Cigale 14, at least one Ovni, the RM 1050, the Romanée, the Centurion or the Hood 38 would better deserve a spot in this list than the other French designs (apart from the Arpège) that made it.

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

It's funny, with the exception of the Arpege, the French boats that made it to the list would not be considered "great boats" on this side of the Atlantic.

May be the good designs didn't cross the Atlantic commercially but IMHO, boats like the Gin Fizz, at least one of the early 70s plywood boats, the Cigale 14, at least one Ovni, the RM 1050, the Romanée, the Centurion or the Hood 38 would better deserve a spot in this list than the other French designs (apart from the Arpège) that made it.

An American mag asked their readers. What did you expect? You'll see the European shutters that the manufacturers brought to shows.

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The Vanguard is on the list but not the Catalina 42? 

Time to sell the POA Catalina then- hell, I’ll keep the Vanguard then, it even sports a roller boom furler! Thanks Phil Rhodes for a great cruiser!

Nice work on topping the list Bob!

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Indeed...

I first ever crossed the channel on a Westerly Centaur!

suggesting the centaur was a bit tongue in cheek - although the little contessa and the solid old pearson  is there.  I took a look at the website and given the market it is aiming at I think that almost anything under 35 foot is not in the right price/level of luxury  bracket for the publication.

Some lovely boats there - but I look at the length of them and do an immediate calculation about the cost of keeping one in a marina....

I consider myself to be a cruising sailor - but these yachts are nearly all world girdlers - so I am the wrong sort of cruising sailor and not in the target demographic for Cruising World. 

their sort of sailing is an entirely different kettle of fish

D

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

suggesting the centaur was a bit tongue in cheek - although the little contessa and the solid old pearson  is there.  I took a look at the website and given the market it is aiming at I think that almost anything under 35 foot is not in the right price/level of luxury  bracket for the publication.

Some lovely boats there - but I look at the length of them and do an immediate calculation about the cost of keeping one in a marina....

I consider myself to be a cruising sailor - but these yachts are nearly all world girdlers - so I am the wrong sort of cruising sailor and not in the target demographic for Cruising World. 

their sort of sailing is an entirely different kettle of fish

D

 

 

 

The Centaur is quite slow, doesn't like helmsmen who pinch, doesn't like light airs but it is rather good at exploring tidal areas others can't approach so definitely a good cruising boat for some people. Twin keels that are good performers only appeared 20 years after the Centaur.

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Over 1000 sold - Charley got something right.

And considering they are mostly still floating 40 or 50 years later they can't be the life threateningly dangerous pieces of junk the Interweb would lead you to believe.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Over 1000 sold - Charley got something right.

And considering they are mostly still floating 40 or 50 years later they can't be the life threateningly dangerous pieces of junk the Interweb would lead you to believe.

I heard they just can't go fast enough to break anything.

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I am naive in the yacht area, but I have this suspicion that there are  a great many more modern craft that are a great deal better than many of the yachts on this list. Eg the J-boats, of which there are none here, and what about boats like the Pogo 12.5 or Boreals?  Perhaps the readership of Cruising World is demographically biased somehow? Perhaps the question they actually answered is, "What are the best sailboats from the era when serious professionals and successful small business owners could reasonably afford a 30-40 foot yacht?" 

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On 12/20/2019 at 3:15 PM, Steam Flyer said:

The Moore 24 is the 40th all-time best CRUISING boat ever? I want some of what they're smoking... no wait, I gotta drive home...

This list primarily reminds me what an old fogey I am, I have no knowledge whatever of the ten newest boats on the list. Very interesting range of types and configurations though.

FB- Doug

If it wasn’t for old fogies here I wouldn’t have heard of over half on that list. :P

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33 minutes ago, Foiling Optimist said:

I am naive in the yacht area, but I have this suspicion that there are  a great many more modern craft that are a great deal better than many of the yachts on this list. Eg the J-boats, of which there are none here, and what about boats like the Pogo 12.5 or Boreals?  Perhaps the readership of Cruising World is demographically biased somehow? Perhaps the question they actually answered is, "What are the best sailboats from the era when serious professionals and successful small business owners could reasonably afford a 30-40 foot yacht?" 

No kidding. They don't cruise in J-Boats (huge generalization, sure) or Pogo 12.5's, for starters. Older, less (or zero) racing aspirations, middle of the road for the most part. Just like most of the boats.

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Congratulations Bob.....but I’m also happy to see two Carl Alberg designs made the list....I just wish it had been the boat he designed which I own and am very fond of. We like to joke that Carl Alberg only ever designed one boat....some were shorter....and some were longer. 

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The intro makes it pretty clear, "We polled our Readers and ....". That's the pool who made the list.  It's interesting taking a macro view of all the boats and the common denominator seems to be percieved comfort and safety over other factors, also large production run models for the most part. Not alot of boats out in the margins.  They are mostly the Goldilocks size.

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14 hours ago, Foiling Optimist said:

I am naive in the yacht area, but I have this suspicion that there are  a great many more modern craft that are a great deal better than many of the yachts on this list. Eg the J-boats, of which there are none here, and what about boats like the Pogo 12.5 or Boreals?  Perhaps the readership of Cruising World is demographically biased somehow? Perhaps the question they actually answered is, "What are the best sailboats from the era when serious professionals and successful small business owners could reasonably afford a 30-40 foot yacht?" 

I suspect the process was gamed somehow to select boats from various eras in order to give the accompanying magazine article some color.

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2 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

The intro makes it pretty clear, "We polled our Readers and ....". That's the pool who made the list.  It's interesting taking a macro view of all the boats and the common denominator seems to be percieved comfort and safety over other factors, also large production run models for the most part. Not alot of boats out in the margins.  They are mostly the Goldilocks size.

You can fit three bears into a Triton?

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On 12/21/2019 at 12:01 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

A really nice Landfall 38 from that list will set you back $40K or so and an Alberg 30 should be less than half that, maybe 1/4. It is not all high dollar boats.

I went through the list and yachtworlded most of them just for fun. Prices vary widely of course, based on model age and condition. There are a number of Bermuda 40s out there that aren't outrageous given the boat, for example.

There happens to be a 1990 Morris 36 in my town which I admire every Saturday morning on my bike ride, but the owner wants $149k. :rolleyes:  At $50k it might be an interesting boat...

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

 

:lol: No figure 8 tracks in Blighty?

That one that 3 wheeled with the left front 2' in the air was impressive.

What a shame that Clarkson had to be such a jerkoff Prima Donna - that show was great.

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C&C 38 landfill is nice enough, unless you get the real cruiser setup with the cabin top traveller. Gentleman dont sail to windward was part of this design. The 43 was amazingly better in so many ways , but they only built a dozen or less. 

Canadian boatbuilders also gave the world the Tanzer 22/26 and the 6 window Bayliner. 

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9 minutes ago, crankcall said:

C&C 38 landfill is nice enough, unless you get the real cruiser setup with the cabin top traveller. Gentleman dont sail to windward was part of this design. The 43 was amazingly better in so many ways , but they only built a dozen or less. 

Canadian boatbuilders also gave the world the Tanzer 22/26 and the 6 window Bayliner. 

And this spectacular creation.

Sea%20Bee%202.JPG

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14 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

How do you figure we are to blame for the Binliners?

They came from Washington state.

And made in Tennesee, and Mexico, some connection to Grampian designers??  My appologies to the rest of Canada if we actually had no hand in them. Grampian was all ours, I drive by the old plant twice a week

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

And this spectacular creation.

Sea%20Bee%202.JPG

I still remember the first time I saw one of those in Mosquito Creek.

I also still remember thinking WTF? how could anyone with any pride or sense of decency create a beast like that?

One of the ugliest boats ever produced. Even worse, Grampian's construction quality was such that those monstrosities will be blighting the ocean for many more decades.

The original 34 was no beauty queen either but at least it was a blandly decent looking boat.

Maybe it had a good personality.

image.png.3970da35cd1e1d21600acd03ca0b2109.png

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

And this spectacular creation.

Sea%20Bee%202.JPG

I'm a supporter of Canadian designers and builders, C&C in particular. BUT they did produce the MEGA. Really quite an ugly boat. It was designed to be a 30' one design trailer able race boat. Meeting the 8' max beam to trailer produced an high narrow boat with a futurist swoop around window. Looked way worse in the flesh than the photo lets on.

f4c5fd7e67d1598ec162e71b3522133b.jpg

piccc30100c.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

I'm a supporter of Canadian designers and builders, C&C in particular. BUT they did produce the MEGA. Really quite an ugly boat. It was designed to be a 30' one design trailer able race boat. Meeting the 8' max beam to trailer produced an high narrow boat with a futurist swoop around window. Looked way worse in the flesh than the photo lets on.

f4c5fd7e67d1598ec162e71b3522133b.jpg

piccc30100c.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

A bit of flash camouflage would work wonders.

IMG_9395.jpg

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The mega deserves its own thread , a good idea, poorly implemented, by a company that had arguably produced some of the most elegant looking boats, and a couple that changed race boat design and history. 

Then comes the mega, fits in a shipping container (they should have welded the doors shut) , races to its rating, just odd styling and C&C insists dealers take them in on inventory when NO dealer wanted it. Slippery slope......

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On 12/22/2019 at 3:58 AM, nebe said:

I would have said the Morgan 44.  

I understand the OI getting ranked for the charter trade but any number of Morgans were outstanding cruiser-racers: the 24, Paper Tiger 28, 30, 34, 35, that are far easier on the eyes and were innovative from the perspective of early fiberglass boat builders.  RIP Tampa Bay boat builders.

I have a bit of personal favor towards the Morgan 24, having grown up crewing on one for my father.

- Stumbling

 

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13 hours ago, KC375 said:

I'm a supporter of Canadian designers and builders, C&C in particular. BUT they did produce the MEGA. Really quite an ugly boat. It was designed to be a 30' one design trailer able race boat. Meeting the 8' max beam to trailer produced an high narrow boat with a futurist swoop around window. Looked way worse in the flesh than the photo lets on.

f4c5fd7e67d1598ec162e71b3522133b.jpg

piccc30100c.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

Never sailed nor even seen one but looks like a rather nice weekender to me.

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13 hours ago, KC375 said:

I'm a supporter of Canadian designers and builders, C&C in particular. BUT they did produce the MEGA. Really quite an ugly boat. It was designed to be a 30' one design trailer able race boat. Meeting the 8' max beam to trailer produced an high narrow boat with a futurist swoop around window. Looked way worse in the flesh than the photo lets on.

f4c5fd7e67d1598ec162e71b3522133b.jpg

piccc30100c.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

The typical modern sailboat has lowered our expectations on how a sailboat should look so it doesn't look as ugly now as it did when it came out.

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36 minutes ago, slap said:

The typical modern sailboat has lowered our expectations on how a sailboat should look so it doesn't look as ugly now as it did when it came out.

I think that's true. I remember when it first came out how it offended my eyes but now it just seems unfortunate.

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Wasn't the Mega project done in conjunction with North Sails?

Frankly I've never understood all the trash talk - sure it was unusual looking but it would seem to perform - PHRF in the 130's IIRC when a typical 30' was in the 180's

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6 hours ago, slap said:

The typical modern sailboat has lowered our expectations on how a sailboat should look so it doesn't look as ugly now as it did when it came out.

I admire stepping out of their comfort zone and trying something different.   Shouldnt get spanked for that...

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Wasn't the Mega project done in conjunction with North Sails?

Frankly I've never understood all the trash talk - sure it was unusual looking but it would seem to perform - PHRF in the 130's IIRC when a typical 30' was in the 180's

Not too surprised by the performance as the hull shape looks better than the IOR influenced boats of the time. It has a shallow hull with flattish bottom, it could nearly have been designed in the 1990's.

mega_30_one-design_drawing.jpg

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21 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

I understand the OI getting ranked for the charter trade but any number of Morgans were outstanding cruiser-racers: the 24, Paper Tiger 28, 30, 34, 35, that are far easier on the eyes and were innovative from the perspective of early fiberglass boat builders.  RIP Tampa Bay boat builders.

I have a bit of personal favor towards the Morgan 24, having grown up crewing on one for my father.

- Stumbling

 

I own a Morgan designed Columbia 31 which is a close sibling to a paper tiger.  It’s a great boat. 
 

I think this list that cruising world put together Is based upon the number of boats built and the exposure people have had on them. There’s some amazingly nice boats built in small numbers, so less people would vote for them. 

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Wasn't the Mega project done in conjunction with North Sails?

Frankly I've never understood all the trash talk - sure it was unusual looking but it would seem to perform - PHRF in the 130's IIRC when a typical 30' was in the 180's

If I remember correctly, the issue was that it was very hard to sail to her rating and that it could be a bit soft in areas, like in the keel sump.

- Stumbling

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2 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:
23 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Wasn't the Mega project done in conjunction with North Sails?

Frankly I've never understood all the trash talk - sure it was unusual looking but it would seem to perform - PHRF in the 130's IIRC when a typical 30' was in the 180's

If I remember correctly, the issue was that it was very hard to sail to her rating and that it could be a bit soft in areas, like in the keel sump.

I think the rating included running in moderate air. Disclaimer- I've never sailed one but have raced against them, and they seem to struggle a bit upwind... tender, pointing issues (which may be a wide range of issues that are totally not the boat's fault), and I don't think I ever saw a fair trial of how they might do in light wind. But given a long run in 6~12ish and they -can- sail to their rating without fancy sails or rockstar skills.

You know, I should look for one. I need a 2-couples daysailer that's fun, drunken boys weekender, PHRF shitter, that will 1- handle our shallow water including my home slip and 2- I can justify on the grounds that it doesn't cost as much as the guitar I -would- have bought instead...

Apologies to Bob for going off-topic on this conversation... hey we should talk about FOOD, that's important for a good cruiser!!

Merry Christmas to all!!

FB- Doug

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

Merry Christmas To all CA'ers:

Violet piper.jpg

Thanks. You too, Bob. Love to see some of your new work, if you care to share in 2020. Best regards.

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On 12/23/2019 at 1:27 PM, SloopJonB said:

Wasn't the Mega project done in conjunction with North Sails?

Frankly I've never understood all the trash talk - sure it was unusual looking but it would seem to perform - PHRF in the 130's IIRC when a typical 30' was in the 180's

At the time C&C was known for this:

c-c-39.jpg

The Mega 30 was kind of like Ferrari coming out with a pickup truck or something. The C&C owners and dealers of the time where like "WTF is THAT thing" :o

Given hindsight from the 21st century, the idea was actually sound and perhaps ahead of its time. A little de-fuglification would have also really helped. At least a couple Mega 30s were converted into power boats.

RETIRED-FROM-SAILING-GET-A-LITTLE-DINGY.

 

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I was on the first one that came here. Bayshore floating boat show.

I got the point of it and actually kinda liked it - the simplicity was so at odds with the leaky teakies that were the standard of "seaworthiness" at the time.

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On 12/25/2019 at 7:11 AM, Bob Perry said:

I'll see what I can do Sailbye. Maybe I can bring the 85' ketch out to play. It's pretty much presentable now.

 

Rob 11-20-19.jpg

Wow. She's very impressive. Is she to be constructed in carbon fibre? Can we see her sail plan too?

Love you work, Bob.

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Sauilbye:

The Client is an American ex composites engineer. We will design the structure together. I suspect there will be some carbon fiber. The rig will be carbon.

Here is a preliminary sail plan that works with the layout I posted. I am working with Jody Culbert III on the 3D model now. It's a challenge.

Rob SP Deck 11-13-19.jpg

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