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44 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

I think it's quite clear that a HUGE part of Lewis' success is the car, and Bottas playing a moving wall for him so that he comes under less pressure.  Russel was clearly the class of the field, if it weren't for the pit crew fuckups and the puncture.

Lewis just took a huge step down in the annals of history.  Frankly, I don't think they could have scripted a better way to demonstrate that it's the machine that makes him what he is.

I don't think it takes a hell of a lot away from LH, but it does from VB. Clearly they both have awesome cars that are weapons in the right hands. Lewis isn't the one that can't keep his running out front, VB is. Until somebody starts beating him on the regular, I reckon I'll still think of him as the champ.... After all, was Schumacher not blessed with superior equipment for his title runs? That's part of the game. 

That said, I would love to see GR in the other car next season. Was it 2016 when Nico won the title? That was some fun racing to watch. 

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Only max is allowed to do that at the RBR?

I really thought when he started taking on that beast that it was just the sort of thing to distract him from his primary occupation. It seems to have done no such thing, and perhaps the opposite. He

The Mercedes twitter admin is a riot At least they can laugh at themselves. Although I know GR isnt laughing. MS

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I don't see how Perez doesn't have a seat next year after this race.  If I was Alex Albon, I would start working on other options to pursue once Red Bull makes the right decision.  There is no reason why their second car shouldn't be up there with Verstappen.  Discuss.

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1 hour ago, mathystuff said:

Clearly teams will have thrown some bucks at a mathematician to tell them who the fastest driver is.

And Merc sticking with Hamilton implies it's him.

They were discussing this on the Sky pre-race show as there is now a company providing statistical data which normalizes for what car, what tire, tire condition, blah blah blah

The general public can apparently access it.

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Great job by GR and a colossal fuckup by the Merc pit wall.  

As to Lewis?  I'm not a Lewis fanboy but have grown to respect his innate ability to deliver the extra 0.01% when its needed.  I think he just wants it a tiny bit more than some others.    He has earned his place in history.  

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7 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Great job by GR and a colossal fuckup by the Merc pit wall.  

As to Lewis?  I'm not a Lewis fanboy but have grown to respect his innate ability to deliver the extra 0.01% when its needed.  I think he just wants it a tiny bit more than some others.    He has earned his place in history.  

I am with you. They still need someone to drive the thing and he does that better than any of of his previous team mates.

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25 minutes ago, mathystuff said:

That made me look.

Not quite how I would have done it and teams probably use way more data including feeder series, but it's a sensible approach.

I did a really dirty (genuinely back of an envelope) version of this out of my own interest earlier in the year.  Only directly comparing drivers who have had the same equipment and trying to extrapolate from there.  That’s part of my I’m genuinely excited about next season.  A big grid shuffle means more cross overs.

it goes a bit like this...

in their last season at Red bull together Ricciardo > Vettel 

this and last season 

leclarc > vettel

so the only data I have says Leclarc = Ricciardo 

but next year we can add:

sainz, stroll, Norris and by extrapolation Perez and hulkenburg.  And all of a sudden we have reasonably robust skill rankings on a third of the fleet.  If Perez ends up at Red bull it means we can revisit Max’s data which right now I have as = to Danny.  

 

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6 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I don't think it takes a hell of a lot away from LH, but it does from VB. Clearly they both have awesome cars that are weapons in the right hands. Lewis isn't the one that can't keep his running out front, VB is. Until somebody starts beating him on the regular, I reckon I'll still think of him as the champ.... After all, was Schumacher not blessed with superior equipment for his title runs? That's part of the game. 

That said, I would love to see GR in the other car next season. Was it 2016 when Nico won the title? That was some fun racing to watch. 

 

Much as I like Valter's modest, self effacing personalityi, it would make a lot of sense to give his car to George next year!!   Dunno how long they are obligated to Bottas, but there are usually cancellation clauses, I believe, should one side of other want a separation...

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13 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I am with you. They still need someone to drive the thing and he does that better than any of of his previous team mates.

I wonder how German the team are or if deep down they’re still a British team with a German sponsor.  
 

right now a truly German team would be weighing up:

Value for money between the drivers

marketing value (including having getting in test groups to see which driver people respond to better in their target markets).

talking to engineers.  I’ve said before we just don’t know with modern drivers how much input and assistance they provide to the engineers.  In the past it’s been one of the things that has separated the good from the great.  They have a whole new car to develop for 2022 who do they need giving them feedback during that process.

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Just now, billy backstay said:

 

Much as I like Valteri, it would make a lot of sense to give his car to George next year!!   Dunno how long they are obligated to Bottas, but there are usually cancellation clauses, I believe, should one side of other want a separation...

Mercedes could pay Bottas to drive for Williams and I don’t think he’d really get much say in it.  

That being said I don’t think they’ll bother.  He’s only on a one year contract and he’s going to come second next year anyway.  They’ll make a commitment to Russel for 2022 giving them the ability to build a car he actually fits in (remember next year’s tubs are unchanged from this year) and give Hamilton 2 years at 50GBP plus bonuses.

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17 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Mercedes could pay Bottas to drive for Williams and I don’t think he’d really get much say in it.  

That being said I don’t think they’ll bother.  He’s only on a one year contract and he’s going to come second next year anyway.  They’ll make a commitment to Russel for 2022 giving them the ability to build a car he actually fits in (remember next year’s tubs are unchanged from this year) and give Hamilton 2 years at 50GBP plus bonuses.

 

50GBP, as it 50,000 pounds?  Add a couple more zeros, I think.

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14 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Much as I like Valter's modest, self effacing personalityi, it would make a lot of sense to give his car to George next year!!   Dunno how long they are obligated to Bottas, but there are usually cancellation clauses, I believe, should one side of other want a separation...

....mild, self effacing, personality that just happens to still be coming in second in the drivers championship....

I still think Valtteri was closing in on George on their hard tire stints (well, I don't THINK, it WAS happening and VB's tires were 4 laps newer) and I think you would have seen a battle between those two at the end... sure, I would love to say that VB would have passed George but we will never know at this point... again, I realize that my favorite driver isn't for everyone but the pit wall screwed VB just as much as GR (maybe even more so because they never brought him back in for fresh tires)... did he get passed (again) at the start? yeah, it's been a struggle with him getting it to hook up at the beginning of races this year... it's been a struggle for leclerc to not missile into other drivers, so I'll take grip struggles over that...

again, ultimately I like GR, and I DO hope he gets a shot soon in the 'big boy' car... but I'm not sure it won't be Hamilton that steps away... taking a variation of Scarecrow's scenario but HAM only stays on for one more year in the unchanged cars....

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i know the UK express is a trash rag...  wonder how much truth there is though

 

Russell's impressive performance stepping in for Lewis Hamilton at the Sakhir Grand Prix has seen his stock rise ten-fold.  The 22-year-old should have secured his maiden F1 victory but for a horrific double-stacked pit stop followed by a late puncture.  There have been strong suggestions that Russell will end up in a Mercedes seat in the near future.  However, supporters think that could happen sooner rather than later. 

Last month Bottas' Instagram bio had a tag to Mercedes' F1 account - but that has since been deleted.   Meanwhile, Russell has also removed all mention of Williams from his bio, which now just reads: "Formula 1 Driver."  Motorsport fans think it is not just a coincidence that the pair have made the changes.  "It is weird, though," one person tweeted. "Something is in the air... "If there is smoke, there is probably fire!!!! I wouldn’t be sad seeing a swap between Bottas and Russell."

 

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9 hours ago, suider said:

I still think Valtteri was closing in on George on their hard tire stints (well, I don't THINK, it WAS happening and VB's tires were 4 laps newer) and I think you would have seen a battle between those two at the end... sure, I would love to say that VB would have passed George but we will never know at this point... again, I realize that my favorite driver isn't for everyone but the pit wall screwed VB just as much as GR (maybe even more so because they never brought him back in for fresh tires)... did he get passed (again) at the start? yeah, it's been a struggle with him getting it to hook up at the beginning of races this year... it's been a struggle for leclerc to not missile into other drivers, so I'll take grip struggles over that...

If strategies had panned out I think Bottas would have ended up right on George's tail.  I'm not sure have spent his batteries and tires getting to that point and possibly lacking that last 0.05% killer instinct if he'd have gotten past him.

The truth is we just don't know how much faster Hamilton really is.  There have been a lot of races this year where he has appeared to ease after gapping the field including Bottas.  I've also always thought there was a chance Hamilton would walk away before the new cars come out.  A major rule change like that is when there is the biggest chance of the pecking order changing and there is (an admittedly small) chance that in 2022 the Mercedes won't be the dominating platform.  

Everyone is talking Bottas, Russel and Hamilton.  But the other two guys who have been elbowed out before ever really getting a shot at the big table are Ocon and Vandoorne.  Both of whom have come through the same system as Russel.  Right now their best hope is that Bottas is dropped for Russel in 2021 so that a seat will become available for one of them if Hamilton ever retires.  Wait much longer than that and their will be a new young prodigy.

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25 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

If strategies had panned out I think Bottas would have ended up right on George's tail.  I'm not sure have spent his batteries and tires getting to that point and possibly lacking that last 0.05% killer instinct if he'd have gotten past him.

The truth is we just don't know how much faster Hamilton really is.  There have been a lot of races this year where he has appeared to ease after gapping the field including Bottas.  I've also always thought there was a chance Hamilton would walk away before the new cars come out.  A major rule change like that is when there is the biggest chance of the pecking order changing and there is (an admittedly small) chance that in 2022 the Mercedes won't be the dominating platform.  

Everyone is talking Bottas, Russel and Hamilton.  But the other two guys who have been elbowed out before ever really getting a shot at the big table are Ocon and Vandoorne.  Both of whom have come through the same system as Russel.  Right now their best hope is that Bottas is dropped for Russel in 2021 so that a seat will become available for one of them if Hamilton ever retires.  Wait much longer than that and their will be a new young prodigy.

I signed up for F1TV and was listening to some in car in replay and there is a bunch of tire management going on so its difficult to determine what changes in pace are about. They may have told GR to back off or a combo of that and VB wanting to go all in to bring a fight to GR. Better to save tires and go just fast enough to stay out of DRS range I guess. Yes a bummer we won't know.

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Don’t forget that GR had some unknown Pu issue and was in a different mode. Could be he was in some mild limp mode and down on power vs VB at that point. As you say, we don’t and won’t know the details of what happened. 
 

although, I understand NETFLIX was filming Merc for their “drive to Survive” series. We might hear more in about a year...

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I still think we’ll get a rematch this weekend.  Hamilton didn’t just test positive he was sick.  So he has to get over it and then test negative before he can even travel for the race.

someone will have to make a call at some stage if it’s looking marginal because you’re effecting 2 teams.  If your Mercedes do you bank on getting Hamilton back and send Russel back to Williams?  If so there is a chance Vandoorne might get a race anyway.

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3 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

I still think we’ll get a rematch this weekend.  Hamilton didn’t just test positive he was sick.  So he has to get over it and then test negative before he can even travel for the race.

someone will have to make a call at some stage if it’s looking marginal because you’re effecting 2 teams.  If your Mercedes do you bank on getting Hamilton back and send Russel back to Williams?  If so there is a chance Vandoorne might get a race anyway.

I hope we do get a rematch. The whole circus I am sure is just moving to the next venue this week. It sounded like Lewis tested positive when he arrived last week and was in a hotel in Bahrain riding it out, but the commentators may have been guessing. 

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17 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Don’t forget that GR had some unknown Pu issue and was in a different mode. Could be he was in some mild limp mode and down on power vs VB at that point. As you say, we don’t and won’t know the details of what happened. 
 

although, I understand NETFLIX was filming Merc for their “drive to Survive” series. We might hear more in about a year...

Russell had a gremlin twice but when it was obvious the second time around, he actually put a lot of time into Bottas, not losing time.  It must not have been that big of a deal. Was it Crofty who said he'd lost 5 seconds and he actually was up about the same.  Bad math.

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8 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Breaking news...

“rich entitled Russian kid posts inappropriate videos online.”

I guess Haas haven’t started media training the new recruits yet.

Didn't he get banned for a while a few years ago after a post-race fight? And he only came fifth this year? Money counts more than talent and personality it seems!

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

How did I miss this?  Vettel going to Aston Martin?  Video from 3 months ago...

 

Possibly the rock you've been under doesn't have wifi. 

If you were really jaded, you'd argue its Stroll SR trying to find a way to make JR look good by giving him a big name passed his prime to hopefully beat.

Truth is they're trying to buy credibility for the "new team" and he was probably quite cheap.

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36 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Possibly the rock you've been under doesn't have wifi. 

If you were really jaded, you'd argue its Stroll SR trying to find a way to make JR look good by giving him a big name passed his prime to hopefully beat.

Truth is they're trying to buy credibility for the "new team" and he was probably quite cheap.

total waste, he probably is cheap, like kimi, they love the job, made their big nut and now its a lifestyle/job, pretty good one though! cut in pay to 5MM USD a year and I bet they still do it, I would if I could

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Perez starting at the back of the Grid will make the race for 3rd in the championship interesting but it’s likely to come down to maclaren or racing point.  Renault mathematically possible but unlikely.

that being said it’s not unusual for engines to go bang in practice and the race in the last race of the year which may move a few more cars to the back of the grid.  Possibly more likely this year where the racing has been closer and the teams have had to preset engine power on Saturday morning, so have been relying on sensible driving to preserve engines.

Ricciado could theoretically get up to 4th overall but he’ll need to come third to do it (and have Perez finish outside the points).  If that happens there is a super small chance Renault could get third.  Pretty unlikely.

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21 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Possibly the rock you've been under doesn't have wifi. 

If you were really jaded, you'd argue its Stroll SR trying to find a way to make JR look good by giving him a big name passed his prime to hopefully beat.

Truth is they're trying to buy credibility for the "new team" and he was probably quite cheap.

 

Far from living under a rock here.  Just a metric shit ton of moving parts I'm responsible for, before paying attention to F1 daily news....

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On 12/10/2020 at 5:34 PM, SCARECROW said:

I wanted to see vandoone in the merc.  That way we’d really be getting a feel for how much is the car and how much is the driver.

 

22 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Possibly the rock you've been under doesn't have wifi. 

If you were really jaded, you'd argue its Stroll SR trying to find a way to make JR look good by giving him a big name passed his prime to hopefully beat.

Truth is they're trying to buy credibility for the "new team" and he was probably quite cheap.

 

On 12/10/2020 at 5:34 PM, SCARECROW said:

I wanted to see vandoone in the merc.  That way we’d really be getting a feel for how much is the car and how much is the driver.

Vandoorne couldn’t beat Alonso ionce I over a season n the same car and he wouldn’t have beat VB this weekend.

Vandoorne hasn’t spent the last six years helping the team develop race cars  that are comparatively ‘easy’ to drive compared to their rivals. LH has comprehensively beaten his teammates and no matter what you think he deserves his championships.
Historically the best drivers end up in the best cars and it’s not by accident, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and LH.
He will sign a new contract with Mercedes on terms that will probably piss you off...

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1 hour ago, ro! said:

He will sign a new contract with Mercedes on terms that will probably piss you off...

Won't piss me off.  Despite my natural Australian "Tall poppy syndrome" I believe Hamilton deserves all the praise he gets.  Pretty sure I offered him 50M pounds a year a few comments up (and I don't even have that sort of money).  He has cruised to victory more than once this year after majorly gapping Bottas.  The question id more about Bottas.  The only cross reference we have for him is Massa on the decline back in 2015 at Williams and the following year Massa could only just hold off Stroll.  

That all being said, its great to see Hamilton practicing what he preaches and giving a young black driver like Sabastian Loeb a shot by giving him the wheel of his Extreme-E car.

There are also greats who never get the wheel of the right car and as a result don't make your list and are quickly forgotten about.  Verstappin has 4 years left on his Red Bull contract.  Plenty of time there for a few more to rise to the top and beat him out for a seat at whichever team becomes dominant after the launch of the 2022 cars.  He might actually never win a championship but there is little doubt if he'd come up in the Merc system instead of the Red Bull one he'd probably be in Bottas's seat right now. 

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Won't piss me off.  Despite my natural Australian "Tall poppy syndrome" I believe Hamilton deserves all the praise he gets.  Pretty sure I offered him 50M pounds a year a few comments up (and I don't even have that sort of money).  He has cruised to victory more than once this year after majorly gapping Bottas.  The question id more about Bottas.  The only cross reference we have for him is Massa on the decline back in 2015 at Williams and the following year Massa could only just hold off Stroll.  

That all being said, its great to see Hamilton practicing what he preaches and giving a young black driver like Sabastian Loeb a shot by giving him the wheel of his Extreme-E car.

There are also greats who never get the wheel of the right car and as a result don't make your list and are quickly forgotten about.  Verstappin has 4 years left on his Red Bull contract.  Plenty of time there for a few more to rise to the top and beat him out for a seat at whichever team becomes dominant after the launch of the 2022 cars.  He might actually never win a championship but there is little doubt if he'd come up in the Merc system instead of the Red Bull one he'd probably be in Bottas's seat right now. 


pretty sure you offered him 50pounds +bonuses..

you seem to think that comparing drivers in the same team 5yrs ago who are on differing career paths and trajectories is ‘data‘...it isn’t..and yet you think that Vandoorne who had an abysmal F1 career would have given you a good indication on whether its the driver or the car...he wouldn’t have..

If I was starting an e/extreme team Loeb would be at the top of my list of candidates if Carlos’s dad wasn’t available,,,but don’t let that stop you from beating LH with the racist bat..
As for Verstappen..he had to take the RB deal because that was the best available, after getting over his rookie years he’s ended up driving a very ‘difficult’ car to drive which even his great talent sometimes can’t handle, and has destroyed 2 maybe 3 of his teammates.
Had he been in a Mercedes we probably would have seen two great seasons..

but then I don’t remember Max being on the top of Niki’s list when they were looking for drivers...

 

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Cla Driver   Chassis Engine Time Gap km/h
1 Netherlands Max Verstappen Red Bull Racing-Honda RB16 Red Bull Honda 1'35.246     
2 Finland Valtteri Bottas Mercedes F1 W11 EQ Power+ Mercedes Mercedes 1'35.271  0.025   
3 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton Mercedes F1 W11 EQ Power+ Mercedes Mercedes 1'35.332  0.086   
4 United Kingdom Lando Norris McLaren-Renault MCL35 McLaren Renault 1'35.497  0.251   
5 Thailand Alex Albon Red Bull Racing-Honda RB16 Red Bull Honda 1'35.571  0.325   
6 Spain Carlos Sainz Jr. McLaren-Renault MCL35 McLaren Renault 1'35.815  0.569   
7 Russian Federation Daniil Kvyat AlphaTauri-Honda AT01 AlphaTauri Honda 1'35.963  0.717   
8 Canada Lance Stroll Racing Point-BWT Mercedes RP20 Racing Point Mercedes 1'36.046  0.800   
9 France Pierre Gasly AlphaTauri-Honda AT01 AlphaTauri Honda 1'36.242  0.996   
10 France Esteban Ocon Renault R.S.20 Renault Renault 1'36.359  1.113   
11 Australia Daniel Ricciardo Renault R.S.20 Renault Renault 1'36.406  1.160   
12 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari SF1000 Ferrari Ferrari 1'36.065  0.819   
13 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari SF1000 Ferrari Ferrari 1'36.631  1.385   
14 Italy Antonio Giovinazzi Alfa Romeo Racing-Ferrari C39 Alfa Romeo Ferrari 1'38.248  3.002   
15 Finland Kimi Raikkonen Alfa Romeo Racing-Ferrari C39 Alfa Romeo Ferrari 1'37.555  2.309   
16 United Kingdom George Russell Williams-Mercedes FW43 Williams Mercedes 1'38.045  2.799   
17 Brazil Pietro Fittipaldi Haas-Ferrari VF-20 Haas Ferrari 1'38.173  2.927   
18 Canada Nicholas Latifi Williams-Mercedes FW43 Williams Mercedes 1'38.443  3.197   
19 Denmark Kevin Magnussen Haas-Ferrari VF-20 Haas Ferrari 1'37.863  2.617   
20 Mexico Sergio Perez Racing Point-BWT Mercedes RP20 Racing Point Mercedes

 

Norris on fire. Can't wait to see what he and Ricciardo can do with Merc power. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MYC6YLkfJw

^YT quali highlights. 

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9 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Max looks weird. Niki was sensitive to asthetics.

watched part of second practice today, Perez is really on it. Very fast driving. His in car was awesome.

Niki had his ear burnt off and didn’t want plastic surgery! He didn’t give a fuck about aesthetics...

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

What happened to Perez?  New engine penalty?

Just enough to give maclaren some hope.  But they need to get both orange cars in front of the pink ones and one of them to be 6th or better to end up in third.

after all the hopes and dreams it looks like Renault will be finishing in 5th again and Ricciardo won’t be laying in bed second guessing himself too much.

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4 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

it was a joke

 

4 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

it was a joke

Oops..sense of humor bypass kicked in..

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7 minutes ago, ro! said:

 

Oops..sense of humor bypass kicked in..

I based it on the fact that toto told a story of driving with Nikki which I saw on drive to survive. Toto always drove them around and Nikki would get in the passenger seat and make sure all dash air vents were centered in both directions. First thing he would do apparently. They apparently traveled together most of the time when Nikki was with the team.

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2 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I based it on the fact that toto told a story of driving with Nikki which I saw on drive to survive. Toto always drove them around and Nikki would get in the passenger seat and make sure all dash air vents were centered in both directions. First thing he would do apparently. They apparently traveled together most of the time when Nikki was with the team.

I think there is value in having a little bit of OCD in that environment.  However, if it switches to full CDO then you’re fucked and you’d never get out of the pits.

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4 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

I think there is value in having a little bit of OCD in that environment.  However, if it switches to full CDO then you’re fucked and you’d never get out of the pits.

Luckily they have time schedules and eventually have to run the cars so they are obsessive but focused on delivering the car at specific times in specific set up modes and the drivers then get on with it and wring every bit of performance out of it.

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51 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

After quali today I just cannot understand why Perez and kvyat do not have drives next year. 

I don't think anyone (including Albon) doubts that Perez has a job at Red Bull next year.  With regard to Kvyat, if you think of Alphatauri as part of Red Bull's feeder program then Kvyat has had plenty of time to show he's got the right stuff and its time to move on to the next candidate.  From that point of view I think Gasley is lucky to have a drive next year.  Obviously their youth academy isn't as strong as Ferrari's right now.   

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Well it's been a good year for F1, c-19, we race as one,  good luck, bad luck...all in all hard work done and much appreciated. I must say the last race was disappointing, poor Sergio.....might have made a difference. It will be very interesting to see next years line up and new car names. Good fun

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6 hours ago, b green said:

Well it's been a good year for F1, c-19, we race as one,  good luck, bad luck...all in all hard work done and much appreciated. I must say the last race was disappointing, poor Sergio.....might have made a difference. It will be very interesting to see next years line up and new car names. Good fun

Yep that season went out with a whimper.  I know I was hoping for a race that would drive the stats guys nuts with every pass.  Ie Ricciado and Ocon hovering around 3/4, then the Maclarens with Perez making his way through the fleet.  Unfortunately, its a med/high down force track so the Renaults were always on the back foot and back fell out of the pink panther for the 2nd time in 3 weeks.

Side note, unlike everyone else, I think Ricciardo and Norris and in for a world of hurt next year.  The Mercedes engines have been no more reliable than anyone else this year and they're jamming them into a platform that wasn't designed about it.

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5 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Yep that season went out with a whimper.  I know I was hoping for a race that would drive the stats guys nuts with every pass.  Ie Ricciado and Ocon hovering around 3/4, then the Maclarens with Perez making his way through the fleet.  Unfortunately, its a med/high down force track so the Renaults were always on the back foot and back fell out of the pink panther for the 2nd time in 3 weeks.

Side note, unlike everyone else, I think Ricciardo and Norris and in for a world of hurt next year.  The Mercedes engines have been no more reliable than anyone else this year and they're jamming them into a platform that wasn't designed about it.

Side note...‘You do realize that they have had a Mercedes motor at MTC since they signed the deal, and greater minds the yours or mine have been working on integrating it into their chassis for next year?

I’ll bet McLaren beat not only Alpine next year but AMf1 and Team Willy, although I suspect Williams will have a Renault engine by then...

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1 hour ago, ro! said:

Side note...‘You do realize that they have had a Mercedes motor at MTC since they signed the deal, and greater minds the yours or mine have been working on integrating it into their chassis for next year?

 

Of course they have.  But when they designed the 2020 chassis they didn’t know they were going to be using it again next year.  I’m sure they’ll make it work but it doesn’t seem to take much to knock an F1 car and engine out of kilter.  Given F1 engine deals are basically fully maintained leases with the factory doing all the maintenance and work on them.  How come we have seen so many more engine and gearbox problems on the racing point than on the Mercedes?  Is it just because the Mercedes cars and drivers are better so they’re about to run at 95% instead of flat out all the time.  Or as Toto said about Red Bull (before Honda said they were pulling out).  Unless you design and build the car and engine as a package it will never be as good.

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21 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Of course they have.  But when they designed the 2020 chassis they didn’t know they were going to be using it again next year.  I’m sure they’ll make it work but it doesn’t seem to take much to knock an F1 car and engine out of kilter.  Given F1 engine deals are basically fully maintained leases with the factory doing all the maintenance and work on them.  How come we have seen so many more engine and gearbox problems on the racing point than on the Mercedes?  Is it just because the Mercedes cars and drivers are better so they’re about to run at 95% instead of flat out all the time.  Or as Toto said about Red Bull (before Honda said they were pulling out).  Unless you design and build the car and engine as a package it will never be as good.

 Used to think that and it may still be true but red bull and mclaren are hot on Mercedes' heels and Ferrari and Renault are not so much and they are factory teams. If the engine guys share all the cad, fea, and thermo data there's no reason others can't design the lump into their chassis and aero. Big if in that statement and I really no little about the engine deals.

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2 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Ferrari should stay home because they can't race. They need race strategists on the pit wall and have needed them for the last few  years. It's embarrassing. 

No worse than Renault's on average.  They've had some shockers over the last few years.

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1 minute ago, Rain Man said:

Thanks. Crap, that’s a long time with nothing but verbal action. 

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Hmmm. Saudi Arabia is on the schedule.  Lewis has stated publicly that the human rights records of the countries that F1 visits needs to be looked at.  SA is one of the worst.  Lewis isn't F1 but one wonders whether there will be some back room discussions about this.

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Hmmm. Saudi Arabia is on the schedule.  Lewis has stated publicly that the human rights records of the countries that F1 visits needs to be looked at.  SA is one of the worst.  Lewis isn't F1 but one wonders whether there will be some back room discussions about this.

thats ok they have a stickers everywhere saying "we race as one".  That is their get out of jail free card (in Liberty's eyes) to chase the money and follow the cash.

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1 minute ago, SCARECROW said:

thats ok they have a stickers everywhere saying "we race as one".  That is their get out of jail free card (in Liberty's eyes) to chase the money and follow the cash.

Did anyone other than me notice that during the post-race coverage yesterday the roving cameras carefully picked out and focused on the few and far between female team members from Mercedes, Red Bull etc. as they were watching the podium ceremony?  I wasn't sure what to think about that.  Was it "hey, we're trying" or was it just one particularly pervy camera operator?

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Did anyone other than me notice that during the post-race coverage yesterday the roving cameras carefully picked out and focused on the few and far between female team members from Mercedes, Red Bull etc. as they were watching the podium ceremony?  I wasn't sure what to think about that.  Was it "hey, we're trying" or was it just one particularly pervy camera operator?

 

I noticed that too, but didn't give it much thought before you mentioned it.  I figured they were just doing the same as all other TV people, showing attractive females, whenever the chance arises.....

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9 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Thanks. Crap, that’s a long time with nothing but verbal action. 

When I started following F1 in the 70's, we had to wait for Road and Track to come out with the results a month later.  The stories were written by Rob Walker, Johnny Black and Red's heir.  With a superior car, Mario won the WC.

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I wonder if Ferrari's 2021 engine will be competitive.  They claim it looks good on the bench.  The fall of Ferrari certainly made the other teams look good.

If you take Ferrari powered cars out of the 2019 results you get: (ferrari had 504 points)

1. Mercedes --> 739 points (35 pt/race)
2. Red Bull --> 504 points (24 pt/race)
3. Mclaren --> 145 points (7 pt/race)
4. Renault -->  91 points (4 pt/race)
5. Toro Rossa (alphatauri)--> 85 points (4 pt /race)
6. Racing point --> 73 (3 pt/race)
7. Williams --> 1

This year

1. Mercedes --> 573 points (33pt/race)
2. Red Bull --> 319 points (19pt/race)
3. Mclaren --> 202 points (11.9 pt/race)
4. Racing point --> 195 points (11.5pt/race)
5. Renault -->  181 points (10.6 pt/race)
6. Alphatauri (Toro Rossa) --> 107 points (6 pt/race)
7. Williams --> 0

I'm too lazy and don't care enough to go through and redistribute points race by race to see what results would look like without them.  But based on the above, the only team to have made significant improvements is Racing Point.  Mclaren and Alphatauri have what at first glance look like better results but really they have just maintained the status quo each picking up scraps left for them by the missing Red cars.  Renault have closed the gap to Mclaren a bit, but part of that will be from the way the points get better as you get closer to the front.  With slow Ferraris, Ricciado would have been on the podium in Italy last year.

That being said it is not a good sign for Redbull that despite being basically assured on paper 3rd and 4th in every race this year instead of 5 and 6th they have actually gone backwards in points while.

 

 


 

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Well, I'm at least glad we got in a season after all. Congrats @SCARECROW on the fantasy win... I really needed Bottas to do SOMETHING in the second to last week when he was my mega driver, but it wasn't to be....

I'm a little concerned that next year is going to turn into a holding pattern year (drivers changing rides notwithstanding) as we all really wait for the new cars. Although maybe with a few additional tweaks (or whatever they are officially calling them) maybe Max can make more of a charge- and I wouldn't write off Vettel quite yet in the pink car, either... they were pretty competitive this season and he will certainly be looking to 'revamp' the end of his career....

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55 minutes ago, Trovão said:

when can we expect red bull racing to announce perez as max's team mate?

At the interviews after the last race  Christian Horner intimated it won't be long before a decision is announced one way or another.  Given the short break before the next season starts it can't be long.  I think Albon knows he is out the door based on the post-race interview he gave, but maybe I'm misjudging his comments.

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1 minute ago, Rain Man said:

At the interviews after the last race  Christian Horner intimated it won't be long before a decision is announced one way or another.  Given the short break before before the next season starts it can't be long.  I think Albon knows he is out the door based on the post-race interview he gave, but maybe I'm misjudging his comments.

heard a rumour albon would stay as test driver and/or replacement driver...

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yep back up / test / replacement driver is Albon's short term future at least until they see how Tsunoda pans out.

I've just been reading up on Tsunoda (trying to dig a bit deeper beyond the Alphatauri press) of this year's recruits he may well be the most promising. In their first year in F2 (2019) Ilott, Schumacher and Mazepin came 11, 12 and 16th respectively.

In his first year Tsunoda came 3rd!

When talking about Schumacher during the last event, pretty much the best thing the commentators could say was that "he is a hard worker".  There is a chance that if he looks good in comparison to his team mate next year it is because his team mate is Mazepin and it is going to be hard for the fan to get a real feel for his potential.

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