J/111 sail configs in ORR?

[Blur 108]

We’re evaluating some US races and are trying to understand yet another rating rule (after IRC, ORCi, SRS (Sweden), NOR Rating (Norway) and DH (Denmark).

We like to optimize for max speed/fun and maximizing our already strong light air performance. But also be rated "fairly" and don't cross any magic boundaries 
We have the possibility to do some configuration based on our inventory and what’s considered smart or overly penalized. 

 

a) 130 m2 A2 (one-design) vs 155 m2 A2 ”whomper”? 

Are ”oversized” downwind sails penalized, or a smart move in light wind areas?

 

b) jib 0? 51% half-width tacked w furler 1 m in front of forestay.  42 m2 vs 34 m2 for standard J1.

Depending on rule, can be measured either as a big headsail (without too much penalty) or a small code.

Works well in ORCi but big no-no in IRC.

 

c) Code half-width sweet spot?

I’ve seen the ”tweener”-articles, but are there any reasoning on a sweet spot between 50-75% on Large Roach Headsails (LRHs)?

We currently race with a 70 m2 55% code under local rules and replace it with a used 80 m2 76% for IRC racing (an awful sail).

 

d) number of headsails

Any ”threshold” or max number to be aware of? 

Today we run J1, J2, J3.5 (heavy weather jib) and staysail.

 

e) number of downwind sails

Any ”threshold” or max number to be aware of? 

Today we run 3 nylon avsys + code = 4

[Crash 620]

ORR headquartered in Rhode Island...as I believe you use North Sails, I might reach out to their J/111 guy in Rhode Island to see what their recommendations are, or their J/111 guys in each area you are thinking of racing in to see how the local area conditions impact ORR...of course, knowing you, you've already done this 

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/od/j111

[hrothgar 97]

Which races are you considering?

We are having some of the same questions here about what is legal in the Chicago Mac--which usually has a one-design configuration with amendments, v. what would be legal under ORR for the Port Huron Mac which typically doesn't have a one-design section.

Headed to the Chicago Boat Show on Saturday...will pick the brains of the Chicago North guys there.

More to come.

Hrothgar

[Blur 108]

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, hrothgar said:

Which races are you considering?

Newport-Bermuda (and the 1-2 race), Chicago-Mac, SF Big Boat Series & Transpac are on the list. No firm plan. 

Blur is not in OD mode (jibs to big, main to small & some minor details), and our primary focus is distance races  & ticking off the big ones.

Naturally, inventory/rating can/will change depending on race, but I'm trying to understand the big picture here - especially on what's not on the table,

[ryley 458]

On 1/5/2020 at 8:48 AM, Blur said:

We’re evaluating some US races and are trying to understand yet another rating rule (after IRC, ORCi, SRS (Sweden), NOR Rating (Norway) and DH (Denmark).

We like to optimize for max speed/fun and maximizing our already strong light air performance. But also be rated "fairly" and don't cross any magic boundaries 
We have the possibility to do some configuration based on our inventory and what’s considered smart or overly penalized. 

 

a) 130 m2 A2 (one-design) vs 155 m2 A2 ”whomper”? 

Are ”oversized” downwind sails penalized, or a smart move in light wind areas?

 

b) jib 0? 51% half-width tacked w furler 1 m in front of forestay.  42 m2 vs 34 m2 for standard J1.

Depending on rule, can be measured either as a big headsail (without too much penalty) or a small code.

Works well in ORCi but big no-no in IRC.

 

c) Code half-width sweet spot?

I’ve seen the ”tweener”-articles, but are there any reasoning on a sweet spot between 50-75% on Large Roach Headsails (LRHs)?

We currently race with a 70 m2 55% code under local rules and replace it with a used 80 m2 76% for IRC racing (an awful sail).

 

d) number of headsails

Any ”threshold” or max number to be aware of? 

Today we run J1, J2, J3.5 (heavy weather jib) and staysail.

 

e) number of downwind sails

Any ”threshold” or max number to be aware of? 

Today we run 3 nylon avsys + code = 4

Blur,

If you can wait until after Jan 15, I can get you some answers to some of your questions, but at the very least here's a little bit of info:

Sail Limitations:

Here are the defs of large/small headsail and LRH:

• Large headsails <50% half width to foot ratio are those having an LPG greater than 1.1*J with
a spinnaker half-width equal to or less than 50% of the foot measurement. Sails in this category must
be tacked on the centerline of the boat.

• Large Roach headsails (LRH)>50% LRH MGM/LRH LPG (“Tweener”) are sails having an LPG
greater than 1.1*JLRH (JLRH=Tack point of LRH) (ILRH =highest attachment point of LRH to the
mast, LLRH=the Luff of the LRH) with an LRH MGM greater than 50% of the LRH LPG, but with a
spinnaker half width less than 75% of the foot measurement. Sails in this category must be tacked on
the centerline of the boat and measured as both a spinnaker and a headsail. Sails in this category
must be flown outside any other sails that are set.

• Small headsails, including inner forestaysail’s, are those having an LPG less than or equal to 1.1*J.
Sails in this category must be tacked on the centerline of the boat.

• *Where the largest headsail for which a boat is rated is a Small Headsail, the total number of
headsails allowed shall be the Small Headsail maximum plus two plus a one Large Roach Headsail.

As far as how the rule treats different combinations, I think it's a fair bet to say that ORR will treat sails similarly to ORC, although the VPPs have diverged in technical details signifcantly. I'll be presenting your questions next week to the ORA tech committee and they may have some more information for you.

[Blur 108]

 

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, ryley said:

If you can wait until after Jan 15, I can get you some answers to some of your questions, but at the very least here's a little bit of info...

No hurry. We'll spend 2020 in the Med (Rolex Giraglia Cup + Copa del Rey), but it's great to have a long term plan for both the team and the sailmaker. 

Looks like a 55% half-width to foot ratio Code 0 will fit the LHR definition rather nicely. From my understanding, ORR tries to rate any LHR as "fairly" as possible, which makes the choice easier. The J/111 build lot's of apparent speed in light air so the 75% IRC code isn't working very well. 55% have worked very well, and we're fine with the smaller area.

The J0 with 51% is not an LHR (LPG = 1.03*JLRH) but could be a large headsail. But I guess that would increase J to the new tacking point and would affect the rating in a disproportional way. In the ORC VPP,  it doesn't affect upwind speed which is kind of a loophole.

The number of sails seems fine.

Thanks for the useful info!

[jackolantern 470]

I know some JBoats have had success in the past by cutting down kites and shortening the sprit length (via a stopper in the pole out line) in the Bermuda Race which is traditionally upwind or a reach. 

I would wait until after this year's Bermuda to go ahead with the J0/LRH discussion. People have been developing sails for it and there will be some new ideas out there, as well as some new tweaks to the formula to accurately rate these LRHs.  I can tell you that it's certainly a fruitful area for development, but that what works depends on the boat and the rating impact. If you've got a J0 design you like (which I know you do) then I think it makes sense to stick with that.

More kites means a higher rating, but there's a note discussion somewhere of what the baseline is. I think it's 3. 

There are some other ORR tricks that I'm not going to post here, suffice to say that like all rules you can benefit from putting in time and money on your optimization.

[ryley 458]

5 hours ago, jackolantern said:

More kites means a higher rating, but there's a note discussion somewhere of what the baseline is. I think it's 3. 

Under ORR and ORR-ez, the number of kites allowed is 5. Since the rating is essentially based on the largest of each sail, the number of them shouldn't matter much. Otherwise I agree with everything you said.

[Blur 108]

We're in the process of ordering some new sails, and I wanted to revisit this discussion.

One issue is staysail, which in ORC and IRC can be as big as any headsail.

But ORR seems to be more restrictive as 

"it shall not be tacked in such a position that, if the sail were trimmed flat 
along a parallel to the centerline of the boat, its clew would fall abaft the LP line”

I e "Staysail LPG Max” depends on the tacking point?

The tacking point normally ends up 920 mm aft of the forestay. 

Is this a correct interpretation?

[Snowden 326]

It's saying that the clew of the staysail can't be aft of the clew of the largest jib/genoa. Stops you creating, say,  a 135% genoa with a 100% at the headstay plus a 75% tacked at 60%, for example.

[George Dewey 52]

On 1/6/2020 at 9:46 AM, Blur said:

Newport-Bermuda (and the 1-2 race)

 

I would love to meet you guys when you come to Newport, the beer's on me!

[Blur 108]

1 hour ago, George Dewey said:

I would love to meet you guys when you come to Newport, the beer's on me!

Looking forward to it.

Also got in contact with the US Offshore Chief Measurer, so we're all set on ORR.
And naturally, the definitions were different in IRC, ORC and ORR 

[jdenn1882 3]

You'll need to split the trip into two years.  Eastern stuff (Bermuda+ Great Lakes) if you're quick on deliveries and then Western stuff (Big Boat Series + Transpac) since they run the TP and Bermuda race in opposite years.  If you're touring the Great Lakes, you should include the Bayview-Mack as well.  Splash in Lake Huron and run the byc-mack, sail down to chicago for the chi-mack the following weekend, then the ugotta regatta in harbor springs is the third weekend.  Pull it in Harbor at Irish boat shop and ship it to where ever you need it for the next race.  Maybe Key west, BVI and Antigua for the winter and then out to California for the next year?