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May 6, 2020 / By Talia Kaplan 

Dr. Ramin Oskoui, a cardiologist and CEO of Foxhall Cardiology, reacted on Tuesday to a study that found a new coronavirus mutation reportedly mirrors a change that occurred as the SARS virus began to weaken, saying, “it’s well-known that as viruses progress, they typically mutate to weaker forms.”

“The phenomenon is known as ‘Muller’s Ratchet,’” 

He added that this is “virology 101.”

“This is how they go away. They typically mutate, as well as herd immunity, to attenuate weaker strains that no longer make people so ill,” Oskoui continued.

Oskoui made the comments reacting to a study conducted by Arizona researchers, which was published in the online version of the Journal of Virology.

Lead study author Dr. Efrem Lim, a virologist and an assistant professor at Arizona State University’s Biodesign Institute, and his team use a new technology to read through all 30,000 chemical letters of the SARS-CoV-2 genome, or genetic code, The New York Post reported, adding that the technology helps researchers determine how the virus is spreading and mutating over time.

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Hi ya'll. Well this is a son of a bitch. I've weathered a lot of shit and discomfort in my life but this is a MF.....and I would classify my case as moderate. I can't imagine those who become critical

Well...............after two pretty shitty days....not as shitty as the first round mind you, but still pretty shitty.....with the exact same symptoms but less intense, today I feel better. Not 100% b

To help with any confusion from the update today. The Rules: 1. Basically, you can't leave the house for any reason, but if you have to, then you can. 2. Masks are useless, but maybe yo

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2 hours ago, BravoBravo said:

The cat is out of the bag !...talked to a HC professional today tied with the 2 large hospitals in my town....yes there is CV-19...and yes there are some deaths....BUT ...no more than seasonal flu's and there is monkey business in classification of death certificates...I'll stop there ,but could go on !

It kinda depends on how you (CDC etc) want to classify each death. A real life example...........friend of mine died recently (young and very healthy). He was hospitalized because he had a worsening case of COVID. After about 5 days he worsened so he was sedated and intubated. After some time he developed a very large blood clot in his leg. Because of that and frequently the algorithm for any patient sedated long term on a vent includes some method of anti coagulation prophylaxis......often and in this case heparin. After two weeks on the vent he had a couple tests showing no active COVID any longer. They were lightening his sedation hoping to wake him soon. Then he developed a bleed into his brain...most likely a side affect of the heparin..........was taken to emergency surgery and died. What was his cause of death? Well...........it was the spontaneous hemorrhage into the brain. It wasn't the COVID virus directly, it was not respiratory failure.......but......he wouldn't have been in the hospital if not for the COVID. He would not have been on a vent and therefore receiving anti coagulation therapy if not for the COVID. The cascade of bad events that eventually lead to his death were downstream of and because of the critical condition he was in because of the COVID.

Cause of death in the complex biological organism that is the human body is not so straight forward as it sounds.

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21 minutes ago, Point Break said:

It kinda depends on how you (CDC etc) want to classify each death. A real life example...........friend of mine died recently (young and very healthy). He was hospitalized because he had a worsening case of COVID. After about 5 days he worsened so he was sedated and intubated. After some time he developed a very large blood clot in his leg. Because of that and frequently the algorithm for any patient sedated long term on a vent includes some method of anti coagulation prophylaxis......often and in this case heparin. After two weeks on the vent he had a couple tests showing no active COVID any longer. They were lightening his sedation hoping to wake him soon. Then he developed a bleed into his brain...most likely a side affect of the heparin..........was taken to emergency surgery and died. What was his cause of death? Well...........it was the spontaneous hemorrhage into the brain. It wasn't the COVID virus directly, it was not respiratory failure.......but......he wouldn't have been in the hospital if not for the COVID. He would not have been on a vent and therefore receiving anti coagulation therapy if not for the COVID. The cascade of bad events that eventually lead to his death were downstream of and because of the critical condition he was in because of the COVID.

Cause of death in the complex biological organism that is the human body is not so straight forward as it sounds.

Yes...a great example !...which is why we have always relied on science and attending doc to scribe the COD....fuzzy science does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling....that and I really don't like to be lied to and played as the fool. I took the CV-19 very seriously as I have some medical background and grew up in the orient with a mom that was a RN. We could not drink the tap water and all drinking water was boiled..ALL...(10 years like that) ...later I was a Army medic in VN and saw all sort of tropical disease and have a great respect for how fast things can go down hill. I have always wondered about when the next global pandemic might strike...read the first post on this thread. I was prepared way in advance of the masses ,other than TP, which I never imagined would have become such a must have item. All that said....I think for the country as a whole the CV-19 has not come close to the worst  case scenario we came to envision Feb-Mar-April... the ONLY person I know to contract CV-19 is 71...lives in Tijuana, has heart disease . He took him self to the VA hospital in LaJolla and was treated there for a few days then released to self quarantine back home in TJ...his case was not that bad according to him and is back to normal activities 

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7 minutes ago, BravoBravo said:

the ONLY person I know to contract CV-19 is 71...

I gotta say......I know 5 community transmission cases and about 25 presumably from work (my old department) cases. 2 dead, 1 critical but hanging on. Everyone else did well.

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3 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I gotta say......I know 5 community transmission cases and about 25 presumably from work (my old department) cases. 2 dead, 1 critical but hanging on. Everyone else did well.

the number of cases tested showing positive but asymptomatic is very interesting to me...

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

No, he's absolutely right - 75,000 deaths in 2 1/2 months despite the shutdown is just like seasonal flu.

 

How do people get that stupid?

Is it just the way they were born or do they work at it?

 

The answer tot that is as plain as the nose on your face!!  Fox Fake News...

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6 minutes ago, floating dutchman said:

New study finds Covid 19 in seaman

 

7 minutes ago, floating dutchman said:

Really? So the kissing, touching and being in close proximity without a mask is not an issue?

The lockdown getting to you?

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20 minutes ago, floating dutchman said:

New study finds Covid 19 in seaman prompting fears of sexually transmitting the disease.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300007853/covid19-chinese-study-finds-coronavirus-in-patients-semen

Really? So the kissing, touching and being in close proximity without a mask is not an issue?

FFS.

Is that seamen or semen (or both)?

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1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Is that seamen or semen (or both)?

I think it's only male sailors who pose a risk.

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

The answer tot that is as plain as the nose on your face!!  Fox Fake News...

Granted, they take the blame for disseminating the lies & ignorance but it strikes me that there is a prerequisite level of stupid required to be taken in by Faux Newz.

And I have a very distinguished nose - nothing plain about it.

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16 hours ago, Point Break said:

I gotta say......I know 5 community transmission cases and about 25 presumably from work (my old department) cases. 2 dead, 1 critical but hanging on. Everyone else did well.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/with-devastating-speed-coronavirus-spread-through-a-long-beach-fire-station-but-these-firefighters-battled-back/ar-BB13JuTJ

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21 hours ago, BravoBravo said:

I really don't like to be lied to and played as the fool.

Heh, yeah.  Well, if you're going to keep banging the "It's no worse than the flu" drum, then you're going to have to live with COVID deaths being counted just like flu deaths. *You* might think it's "fuzzy science" or someone is up to hanky-panky, but it's the protocol for doing these things so that reasonable comparisons of the numbers can be made.

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3 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

Heh, yeah.  Well, if you're going to keep banging the "It's no worse than the flu" drum, then you're going to have to live with COVID deaths being counted just like flu deaths. *You* might think it's "fuzzy science" or someone is up to hanky-panky, but it's the protocol for doing these things so that reasonable comparisons of the numbers can be made.

I think you left out the fuzzy math....one of us did...if you did your post if a perfect example of manipulation... 

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5 hours ago, bplipschitz said:
On 5/7/2020 at 12:09 PM, BravoBravo said:

I really don't like to be lied to and played as the fool.

Heh, yeah.  Well, if you're going to keep banging the "It's no worse than the flu" drum, then you're going to have to live with COVID deaths being counted just like flu deaths.

Nobody's "playing".

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35 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Well, it's official. 

Just passed 4,000,000 cases, and 275,000 dead.  

USA has 1,300,000 cases, and 78,500 dead.

There's no freaking way the case number is that low from how aggressively they were talking this spread.  5 months and only getting .05% of the population, is unlikely.

 

Half way through the year, it's keeping pace with the flu at cleaning out the raisin ranch.  I'm curious how it'll affect the hunter/gatherer lifestyle we are headed for.

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9 minutes ago, Hatin' life said:

There's no freaking way the case number is that low from how aggressively they were talking this spread.  5 months and only getting .05% of the population, is unlikely.

 

Half way through the year, it's keeping pace with the flu at cleaning out the raisin ranch.  I'm curious how it'll affect the hunter/gatherer lifestyle we are headed for.

It will impact how many people have prime accounts if the apocalypse happens.  

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20 hours ago, BravoBravo said:

back in the day

 

IMG_0002.jpg

Must be because I had the flu for Christmas...

One of the iconic albums of its times.

 

I think men my age generally look ridiculous with long hair so I am letting my freak flag fly by growing a beard.

image.png.c01061720f5ffeb9a099fe57edc332e9.png

 

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2 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Must be because I had the flu for Christmas...

One of the iconic albums of its times.

 

I think men my age generally look ridiculous with long hair so I am letting my freak flag fly by growing a beard.

image.png.c01061720f5ffeb9a099fe57edc332e9.png

 

No beard I did that for the first and only time a few years ago...but I am going to "let my freak flag fly"...someone already told me...that will really make you look old"...

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"Ridiculous" is too kind. 

And all the 'Nam vets hats? I suspect those dudes (never seen a gal in one) are more dimwitted egoists egotists with 100 or less IQs. It's the only thing they can say point to and say, "please, will someone pay attention to me?"

 

 

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Living in the US, we fly back home, in France, every summer to visit our parents and the rest of the family.

Last week we pulled the plug; we cancelled our apartment rental in Saint-Malo for second half of July; we actually never bought the flight tickets... Our parents are in their 80's and did all the right things so far to stay away from the virus. The idea of going to the airport, getting in a plane, maybe have a change over in another airport, get in a rental car and then visit the parents is rather worrisome. I don't want to be the one who gives the virus to my parents.

As French citizens, we can technically enter France; but coming from the US, we are asked to stay in quarantine for 14 days... Which may solve the concerns for the parents... but eats up most of a 3 weeks vacation...

AND, since we do not have US citizenship or a green card, as of today, we would not be allowed to come back to the US!!!

In 22 years of expatriation, first time we will not go back home to visit the family.

Maybe in the fall??? Unless I get fired and then I have 60 days to leave the US for good.

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15 hours ago, Laurent said:

Living in the US, we fly back home, in France, every summer to visit our parents and the rest of the family.

Last week we pulled the plug; we cancelled our apartment rental in Saint-Malo for second half of July; we actually never bought the flight tickets... Our parents are in their 80's and did all the right things so far to stay away from the virus. The idea of going to the airport, getting in a plane, maybe have a change over in another airport, get in a rental car and then visit the parents is rather worrisome. I don't want to be the one who gives the virus to my parents.

As French citizens, we can technically enter France; but coming from the US, we are asked to stay in quarantine for 14 days... Which may solve the concerns for the parents... but eats up most of a 3 weeks vacation...

AND, since we do not have US citizenship or a green card, as of today, we would not be allowed to come back to the US!!!

In 22 years of expatriation, first time we will not go back home to visit the family.

Maybe in the fall??? Unless I get fired and then I have 60 days to leave the US for good.

 

We have our son-in-laws Beach House on Sullivans Island in Charleson, SC for a week in November, but have not bought the tickets yet, not knowing when this will be over.

An alternative opinion to the MSM, although it was almost 8 weeks ago....

 

https://fsi.stanford.edu/news/coronavirus-deadly-they-say

 

March 25, 2020

Is the Coronavirus as Deadly as They Say?

gettyimages-coronaprotocols.jpg

gettyimages-coronaprotocols.jpg?itok=zI7
NEW YORK, NY - MARCH 24: Doctors test hospital staff with flu-like symptoms for coronavirus (COVID-19) in set-up tents to triage possible COVID-19 patients outside before they enter the main Emergency department area at St. Barnabas hospital in the Bronx on March 24, 2020 in New York City. New York City has about a third of the nation’s confirmed coronavirus cases, making it the center of the outbreak in the United States. (Photo by Misha Friedman/Getty Images)

 

Stanford Health Policy's Eran Bendavid and Jay Bhattacharya write in this Wall Street Journal editorial that current estimates about the COVID-19 fatality rate may be too high by orders of magnitude.

"If it’s true that the novel coronavirus would kill millions without shelter-in-place orders and quarantines, then the extraordinary measures being carried out in cities and states around the country are surely justified. But there’s little evidence to confirm that premise—and projections of the death toll could plausibly be orders of magnitude too high.

"Fear of Covid-19 is based on its high estimated case fatality rate — 2% to 4% of people with confirmed Covid-19 have died, according to the World Health Organization and others. So if 100 million Americans ultimately get the disease, 2 million to 4 million could die. We believe that estimate is deeply flawed. The true fatality rate is the portion of those infected who die, not the deaths from identified positive cases."

"The latter rate is misleading because of selection bias in testing. The degree of bias is uncertainbecause available data are limited. But it could make the difference between an epidemic that kills 20,000 and one that kills 2 million. If the number of actual infections is much larger than the number of cases—orders of magnitude larger—then the true fatality rate is much lower as well. That’s not only plausible but likely based on what we know so far."

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56 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

We have our son-in-laws Beach House on Sullivans Island in Charleson, SC for a week in November, but have not bought the tickets yet, not knowing when this will be over.

An alternative opinion to the MSM, although it was almost 8 weeks ago....

 

https://fsi.stanford.edu/news/coronavirus-deadly-they-say

 

March 25, 2020

Is the Coronavirus as Deadly as They Say?

gettyimages-coronaprotocols.jpg

gettyimages-coronaprotocols.jpg?itok=zI7
NEW YORK, NY - MARCH 24: Doctors test hospital staff with flu-like symptoms for coronavirus (COVID-19) in set-up tents to triage possible COVID-19 patients outside before they enter the main Emergency department area at St. Barnabas hospital in the Bronx on March 24, 2020 in New York City. New York City has about a third of the nation’s confirmed coronavirus cases, making it the center of the outbreak in the United States. (Photo by Misha Friedman/Getty Images)

 

Stanford Health Policy's Eran Bendavid and Jay Bhattacharya write in this Wall Street Journal editorial that current estimates about the COVID-19 fatality rate may be too high by orders of magnitude.

"If it’s true that the novel coronavirus would kill millions without shelter-in-place orders and quarantines, then the extraordinary measures being carried out in cities and states around the country are surely justified. But there’s little evidence to confirm that premise—and projections of the death toll could plausibly be orders of magnitude too high.

"Fear of Covid-19 is based on its high estimated case fatality rate — 2% to 4% of people with confirmed Covid-19 have died, according to the World Health Organization and others. So if 100 million Americans ultimately get the disease, 2 million to 4 million could die. We believe that estimate is deeply flawed. The true fatality rate is the portion of those infected who die, not the deaths from identified positive cases."

"The latter rate is misleading because of selection bias in testing. The degree of bias is uncertainbecause available data are limited. But it could make the difference between an epidemic that kills 20,000 and one that kills 2 million. If the number of actual infections is much larger than the number of cases—orders of magnitude larger—then the true fatality rate is much lower as well. That’s not only plausible but likely based on what we know so far."

The flaw in this article is that the danger is not in the death rate.......although it’s not minuscule it is enough to kill over 100 doctors treating patients and who knows how many allied health care workers......the real danger lies in 1) it’s very high transmiibility - it’s pretty contagious and 2) this one is the kicker - the fact that persons are shedding the virus up to weeks before they even know they have the virus, and if theirs is a mild or asymptomatic course they may be shedding/spreading without even knowing they have it over the entire course of their illness. Another problem focusing on just the death rate is it ignores the impact to the person and their families of being so profoundly sick for so very long and possibly permanently disabled for some. Sure......after a month in the hospital.......some of those persons intubated......you live. Deaths alone does not begin to describe the impact/severity of having the virus.

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12 minutes ago, Point Break said:

The flaw in this article is that the danger is not in the death rate.......although it’s not minuscule it is enough to kill over 100 doctors treating patients and who knows how many allied health care workers......the real danger lies in 1) it’s very high transmiibility - it’s pretty contagious and 2) this one is the kicker - the fact that persons are shedding the virus up to weeks before they even know they have the virus, and if theirs is a mild or asymptomatic course they may be shedding/spreading without even knowing they have it over the entire course of their illness. Another problem focusing on just the death rate is it ignores the impact to the person and their families of being so profoundly sick for so very long and possibly permanently disabled for some. Sure......after a month in the hospital.......some of those persons intubated......you live. Deaths alone does not begin to describe the impact/severity of having the virus.

 

I agree with you 100%, but this is a supposedly "credible" argument for allowing states to open for business, which I don't agree with!  I would rather be bankrupt, than dead..

 

Also, according to this chart I found posted at work, the cloth filters that I was wearing and many others are 0% effective on preventing viruses.... We paid 70 bucks for 2 cloth masks with a bunch of active carbon filters and they are also 0% effective, according to this..

 

image.thumb.png.aa30e8341705c7793a09ccc7c29e1c99.png

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2 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I agree with you 100%, but this is a supposedly "credible" argument for allowing states to open for business, which I don't agree with!  I would rather be bankrupt, than dead..

I agree. Although the die is cast (no pun intended). Here in Cali lots of people never practiced the simple social distancing and now that some restrictions have been relaxed very many have simply stopped any precautions. They all cite various “freedoms” infringed upon, various outlying promises that it’s not a problem, or any number of conspiracy theories that the big bad government has manufactured the response to “control” us for some mysterious purpose. In my neighborhood yesterday, any number of social gatherings of friends partying like nothing happened, fewer masks in stores, protests to “open the beaches and bars” to free America. Yep they die is cast.....we’ll know in a few weeks to a month if they were right. I’m guessing they were not.

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Funny thing is I’m actually in favor of reasonable relaxations of the shutdown and allowing most businesses to reopen in a modified manner for some time to get people back to some economic stability.......but around here anyway........that’s apparently not how it will happen....at least for enough people that the impact will likely be felt by us all. A sad commentary on the selfish nature of our current culture.

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3 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I agree. Although the die is cast (no pun intended). Here in Cali lots of people never practiced the simple social distancing and now that some restrictions have been relaxed very many have simply stopped any precautions. They all cite various “freedoms” infringed upon, various outlying promises that it’s not a problem, or any number of conspiracy theories that the big bad government has manufactured the response to “control” us for some mysterious purpose. In my neighborhood yesterday, any number of social gatherings of friends partying like nothing happened, fewer masks in stores, protests to “open the beaches and bars” to free America. Yep they die is cast.....we’ll know in a few weeks to a month if they were right. I’m guessing they were not.

 

I had 3 contractors over yesterday for quotes on replacement windows, a roof and a generator.  Roofing and window guys wore masks and Anderson Renewal guy also wore gloves.  Generator guy, had no mask did not maintain 6 feet apart, and shook hands with our Trumpublican mate/tenant Rich, when he introduced himself.  When I asked the Generator guy about masks and social distancing, he said he didn't believe this was serious, but way overblown, and he cited several Doctors of his acquaintances, and the Stanford study I posted above.  I suspect the generator guy is a Fox New devotee!!  LOL!

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7 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Funny thing is I’m actually in favor of reasonable relaxations of the shutdown and allowing most businesses to reopen in a modified manner for some time to get people back to some economic stability.......but around here anyway........that’s apparently not how it will happen....at least for enough people that the impact will likely be felt by us all. A sad commentary on the selfish nature of our current culture.

 

Again, we agree.  Missus BB has been out of work 6 weeks for a broken wrist.  Can't do prep cook chopping and stuff with one hand.  She is 70 and going crazy,  dying to get back to work.  I am one month shy of 65, and dying to stop working 50+ hours a week!! LOL!

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I agree with you 100%, but this is a supposedly "credible" argument for allowing states to open for business, which I don't agree with!  I would rather be bankrupt, than dead..

 

Also, according to this chart I found posted at work, the cloth filters that I was wearing and many others are 0% effective on preventing viruses.... We paid 70 bucks for 2 cloth masks with a bunch of active carbon filters and they are also 0% effective, according to this..

 

image.thumb.png.aa30e8341705c7793a09ccc7c29e1c99.png

Most masks won't stop dust, never mind something quasi alive trying to hijack your cell reproduction.

I don't know what filters are actually effective against a virus, but most I've seen people wearing are useless as they don't effectively seal.  I haven't seen anyone wearing anything that actually seals the eyes either.

Are ears a potential place of entry?

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2 hours ago, Point Break said:

 A sad commentary on the selfish nature of our current culture.

There would be an interesting study - the number of people who can distinguish between selfishness and freedom.

Viewed from outside, it looks like about a 40/60 split in the USA right now.

It's getting worse here too - crowds of morons heading to the closed parks in my neighbourhood this weekend.

Seems all it takes to make large numbers of people dangerously stupid is air temps over 70.

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3 minutes ago, Hatin' life said:

Most masks won't stop dust, never mind something quasi alive trying to hijack your cell reproduction.

I don't know what filters are actually effective against a virus, but most I've seen people wearing are useless as they don't effectively seal.  I haven't seen anyone wearing anything that actually seals the eyes either.

Are ears a potential place of entry?

 

I don't think so.  Eyes, mouth and nose only...

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5 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

I don't think so.  Eyes, mouth and nose only...

Mucous membranes - so how about pussy? :D

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8 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I don't think so.  Eyes, mouth and nose only...

That's kinda what I thought, but have nothing to base it on.

 

The N95 thing is bullshit if it doesn't seal.  Most of those style masks don't unless they are the cartridge type and gasketed well.  Even then, they still have to be properly adjusted to seal correctly as your face moves.

Edit- I would be weary of off brand anything with the N95 rating as well if you're concerned

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Mucous membranes - so how about pussy? :D

I'm married, so I only see those online.  I should be alright in that regard...

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I agree with you 100%, but this is a supposedly "credible" argument for allowing states to open for business, which I don't agree with!  I would rather be bankrupt, than dead..

 

Also, according to this chart I found posted at work, the cloth filters that I was wearing and many others are 0% effective on preventing viruses.... We paid 70 bucks for 2 cloth masks with a bunch of active carbon filters and they are also 0% effective, according to this..

 

image.thumb.png.aa30e8341705c7793a09ccc7c29e1c99.png

Billy,

You have not been listening to the professionals.  Wearing a mask does nothing for you.  It's only there to prevent you from spraying a cough or sneeze to others close to you.  A simple physical barrier.  It's become a social signal far beyond its actual effectiveness. If you wear a mask, then you are socially responsible.  If not, you are a dangerous heretic. .  As always, the truth is a lot more nuanced.   Intent was wear a mask when you could not maintain "social distancing" of 6'.  It's become a situation where folks have grabbed on to "you have to wear a mask if you leave the house."  Sends a message but someone alone in a park on on a running path or on a beach without a mask is not risking anyone as long as they maintain social distancing.  Requiring masks in a retail or business environment is probably 80% "feel good" and 20% actually providing real protection.  Even with a mask, I strive for at least 6 feet.  

 

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50 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Billy,

You have not been listening to the professionals.  Wearing a mask does nothing for you.  It's only there to prevent you from spraying a cough or sneeze to others close to you.  A simple physical barrier.  It's become a social signal far beyond its actual effectiveness. If you wear a mask, then you are socially responsible.  If not, you are a dangerous heretic. .  As always, the truth is a lot more nuanced.   Intent was wear a mask when you could not maintain "social distancing" of 6'.  It's become a situation where folks have grabbed on to "you have to wear a mask if you leave the house."  Sends a message but someone alone in a park on on a running path or on a beach without a mask is not risking anyone as long as they maintain social distancing.  Requiring masks in a retail or business environment is probably 80% "feel good" and 20% actually providing real protection.  Even with a mask, I strive for at least 6 feet.  

 

This. Any number of well structured studies (although none peer reviewed or big numbers) suggest this. A couple studies on droplet dispersion - initiated before COVID - and one small study in China suggest masks are marginally effective at preventing transmission by you to others but no real evidence it offers you any real protection against transmission by others. All studies seem to conclude that it’s better than nothing - maybe - but not by much and the conclusions are only intuitive.

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42 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Billy,

You have not been listening to the professionals.  Wearing a mask does nothing for you.  It's only there to prevent you from spraying a cough or sneeze to others close to you.  A simple physical barrier.  It's become a social signal far beyond its actual effectiveness. If you wear a mask, then you are socially responsible.  If not, you are a dangerous heretic. .  As always, the truth is a lot more nuanced.   Intent was wear a mask when you could not maintain "social distancing" of 6'.  It's become a situation where folks have grabbed on to "you have to wear a mask if you leave the house."  Sends a message but someone alone in a park on on a running path or on a beach without a mask is not risking anyone as long as they maintain social distancing.  Requiring masks in a retail or business environment is probably 80% "feel good" and 20% actually providing real protection.  Even with a mask, I strive for at least 6 feet.  

 

I believe the CDC recommends wearing and mask, AND being 6 feet apart.  And the chart I posted says that the N95 and surgical mask prevent over 95% of viruses from infecting oneself, but no sure where that chart came from, so could be misinformation... I try to stay 6 feet apartr when wearing a mask...

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4 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I believe the CDC recommends wearing and mask, AND being 6 feet apart.  And the chart I posted says that the N95 and surgical mask prevent over 95% of viruses from infecting oneself, but no sure where that chart came from, so could be misinformation... I try to stay 6 feet apartr when wearing a mask...

Remember N95s are destined to be single use, and only effective when really properly fitted. Just look at the pictures of medical folks geared up to care for COVID patients and you’ll get the idea.

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CDC says the seasonal flu produced 24,000 to 62,000 deaths between 10/1/19 and 4/4/20.  I don't understand why there is such a broad range??

CDC say 47,000 deaths to date from Covid-19. Since we are far from done with this, I expect Covid is NOT the same or lesseer danger than the seasonal flu, as many claim.  OTOH, the Contractor who gave a us a quote for a generator yesterday, said that several Doctors he knows, says they are overcounting deaths attributed to Covid-19.  Death caused by respiratory failure is attributed to Covid, as well as patients who tested positive for Covid, but died from something else..

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

 

I believe the CDC recommends wearing and mask, AND being 6 feet apart.  And the chart I posted says that the N95 and surgical mask prevent over 95% of viruses from infecting oneself, but no sure where that chart came from, so could be misinformation... I try to stay 6 feet apartr when wearing a mask...

From the CDC Web Page:

Quote

CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies), especially in areas of significant community-based transmission.

CDC also advises the use of simple cloth face coverings to slow the spread of the virus and help people who may have the virus and do not know it from transmitting it to others.  Cloth face coverings fashioned from household items or made at home from common materials at low cost can be used as an additional, voluntary public health measure.

This is a simple graphic on how even simple masks help when in close proximity.  The do generally protect others, any you to some extent from aerosolized particles that may spread the virus.  They are certainly not fine enough to block the virus cells at something like 0.5 microns.  They do somewhat significantly reduce the likelihood that someone with COVID19 won't pass along the virus just by being in close proximity to others.  

 

 

masks.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Point Break said:

All studies seem to conclude that it’s better than nothing - maybe - but not by much and the conclusions are only intuitive.

Wearing simple masks has been associated with a reduction in infection rates for the flu similar to the reductions associated with hand washing. Reductions in R stack. Both hand washing and mask wearing are things people can do that are associated with statistically significant reductions in R in respiratory diseases.

 

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Remember N95s are destined to be single use, and only effective when really properly fitted. Just look at the pictures of medical folks geared up to care for COVID patients and you’ll get the idea.

Personally, I don't trust all those experts with their years of education and experience. Bunch of elitist lefties.

It's just like the seasonal flu so I think we should follow the advice of the really smart people like Wardodo, The Mutt and their elk.

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Personally, I don't trust all those experts with their years of education and experience. Bunch of elitist lefties.

It's just like the seasonal flu so I think we should follow the advice of the really smart people like Wardodo, The Mutt and their elk.

They're right twice a day. On a good day.

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14 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I agree with you 100%, but this is a supposedly "credible" argument for allowing states to open for business, which I don't agree with!  I would rather be bankrupt, than dead..

 

Also, according to this chart I found posted at work, the cloth filters that I was wearing and many others are 0% effective on preventing viruses.... We paid 70 bucks for 2 cloth masks with a bunch of active carbon filters and they are also 0% effective, according to this..

 

image.thumb.png.aa30e8341705c7793a09ccc7c29e1c99.png

Dreamstime image... ok, stock photo.  Nothing really wrong, albeit a dubious source for med stuff.

What I got a chuckle over was the author of the image.  Sirichoke

I wanted to choke Siri also when I had that infernal thing plugged in.   Hated it.

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New Zealand has announced the on Thursday we lift many of the restrictions, allowing shops to reopen with restrictions on customer numbers, café's to open with extra distance between seating and schools to reopen in 7 days etc.

Good news, I hope this is the right thing to do, It seems logical because we seem to have this Virus about beat.

Foreign travel will have to wait until the rest of the world gets their shit together, so Tourism  is about fucked for a bit.  I know I'm planning to take the opportunity to see things in my own country without the big crowds for a change, so that could be nice.

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B.C. is going to start easing restrictions next week - parks opening, limited numbers gatherings etc.

Dr. Bonnie has kept our toll to 130 deaths so far - 25/million.

That compares to the current 244/million in the States.

Amazing what can be done when you listen to a lefty, elitist epidemiologist instead of a morally and fiscally bankrupt grifter and his moronic entourage.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

B.C. is going to start easing restrictions next week - parks opening, limited numbers gatherings etc.

Dr. Bonnie has kept our toll to 130 deaths so far - 25/million.

That compares to the current 244/million in the States.

Amazing what can be done when you listen to a lefty, elitist epidemiologist instead of a morally and fiscally bankrupt grifter and his moronic entourage.

Don't overlook the fact that few want to go there. 

You may be math-challenged.

Recall days ago it was reported that about some low % had bachelor's degrees, and you said 40% were Rs.

Doesn't follow. 

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Sorry Doc - I have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't want to go looking but someone said 29% of Mich had bachelor degrees. I thought your response was that 40% of them were Rs. My math suggested that none of them had to be Rs.  No BD.

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Just listened to Dolt 45 bloviating about what a terrific job his team is doing, and how the economy is going to come back like gangbusters in the 3rd and 4th quarters.  What a lying, bullshitting, horses arse.....

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7 hours ago, Point Break said:

Was the crab always a doctor? Did I miss something?

I thick he finialley fineshed the correspondense course at Clarksdalle College of Thesbis & Terpsichore.  I haventte hearded of anny receptione  planns yette.                               :)

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14 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

I thick he finialley fineshed the correspondense course at Clarksdalle College of Thesbis & Terpsichore.  I haventte hearded of anny receptione  planns yette.                               :)

I think something is in the works.  

He sent me a PM about to see if I could arrange a 50 gallon drum of Polish vodka for him.

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13 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:
28 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

I thick he finialley fineshed the correspondense course at Clarksdalle College of Thesbis & Terpsichore.  I haventte hearded of anny receptione  planns yette.                               :)

I think something is in the works.  

He sent me a PM about to see if I could arrange a 50 gallon drum of Polish vodka for him.

Thisse coude be goode!                                              :)

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@Point Break

This began when I posted my disappointment when finding a) Dr Jill Biden is not an MD, and b) per Twitter and L.A. Times, she insists on being called "Dr Biden." She has a PhD in Education. My thoughts and so forth are at the beginning of the Pres. Biden thread. 

When most think of the title Doctor, we think MD. But there are a whole bunch of honorifics --- even Doctors of Theology fer chrissakes. Ask yourself, what's the body of knowledge leading to a doctorate in God studies? There's a lot of gobble, gobble but no drumstick.

Same in my view for social science -- plenty of social -- no science. Lawyers are Doctors of Jurisprudence. Education? The very worst! There is no body of knowledge at all. One gets a doctorate in Education by coming up with an idea and "defending" it to a group of other Doctors of Education. See the turd in the punchbowl? Jill's dissertation:  "Student Retention at the Community College: Meeting Students' Needs." In my view, getting that degree isn't half as hard as a semester of biochemistry. 

Here on the board, we have 3 MDs that I know of, at least 6 lawyers (doctors all), and who knows how many other kinds? I'm not an MD. When someone would inquire "Dr. Crab?", they were talking to my ex-wife. 

The point: I think Jill's insistence on being called Doctor Biden is pompous and a little shady. 

edit: I put the Dr on my handle when making fun of others. I will change it back when permitted. SA has no rules? BS

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12 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

In my observations, Ed.D. or other education doctorate earners are the most insistent on being called "Doctor." Maybe it is the intraschool culture, dunno.  

Mine too. That said, anyone who insists on being called "doctor" outside of a professional setting and sometimes within that setting raises a red flag for me.

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2 hours ago, Dr. Blue Crab said:

@Point Break

This began when I posted my disappointment when finding a) Dr Jill Biden is not an MD, and b) per Twitter and L.A. Times, she insists on being called "Dr Biden." She has a PhD in Education. My thoughts and so forth are at the beginning of the Pres. Biden thread. 

When most think of the title Doctor, we think MD. But there are a whole bunch of honorifics --- even Doctors of Theology fer chrissakes. Ask yourself, what's the body of knowledge leading to a doctorate in God studies? There's a lot of gobble, gobble but no drumstick.

Same in my view for social science -- plenty of social -- no science. Lawyers are Doctors of Jurisprudence. Education? The very worst! There is no body of knowledge at all. One gets a doctorate in Education by coming up with an idea and "defending" it to a group of other Doctors of Education. See the turd in the punchbowl? Jill's dissertation:  "Student Retention at the Community College: Meeting Students' Needs." In my view, getting that degree isn't half as hard as a semester of biochemistry. 

Here on the board, we have 3 MDs that I know of, at least 6 lawyers (doctors all), and who knows how many other kinds? I'm not an MD. When someone would inquire "Dr. Crab?", they were talking to my ex-wife. 

The point: I think Jill's insistence on being called Doctor Biden is pompous and a little shady. 

edit: I put the Dr on my handle when making fun of others. I will change it back when permitted. SA has no rules? BS

My father had a PhD in microbiology. He was entitled to use Doctor which he did on professional correspondence and the like.

Anyone who knows how much work a PhD entails would not spout the ignorant shit you just did.

A perfect illustration of the ignorant contempt of education that is so widespread in the States and which gave you Trump.

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

My father had a PhD in microbiology. He was entitled to use Doctor which he did on professional correspondence and the like.

Anyone who knows how much work a PhD entails would not spout the ignorant shit you just did.

A perfect illustration of the ignorant contempt of education that is so widespread in the States and which gave you Trump.

The Canadian outrage continues because: ................(wait for it) ..........................Canada

But looking past the kneejerk, how about using the examples I used? I used social science*, education, and theology as examples of silliness in being called doctor. Indeed, I opined it was less work to get an Ed.D. than a semester of biochemistry.  I suggested the insistence on using the honorific was pompous and shady. Bet your dad didn't insist on it  ... and using that in work-related professional correspondence is perfectly appropriate. Kinda what it's for, ask me.

Jon, do you have it in you to make a reasoned response to the facts at hand? Apparently not. You are not alone. So many smart guys here just have zero reading comprehension and then want to argue ad nauseam, deflect, make up shit, add elements not in evidence. The fact that some of you guys were successful at something doesn't make the cut discussing somethin' else. As evadent.

Good news: American Idol or maybe Dancing With the Stars is on tonight! And Wheel of Fortune! Yeah yeah, know you swear to only watch it becuz Jeopardy follows it. We are not fooled. 

*Probably many exceptions like a Psychologist who treats patients. Sounds right calling her doctor. 

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3 hours ago, Dr. Blue Crab said:

When most think of the title Doctor, we think MD. But there are a whole bunch of honorifics --- even Doctors of Theology fer chrissakes. Ask yourself, what's the body of knowledge leading to a doctorate in God studies?

Several of my good friends have Ph. Ds in Theology.  They are some of the smartest folks I know (along with a Mathematics Professor, an MD or two and wily farmer friend).

Most prefer to be addressed by their first names.

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6 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

Several of my good friends have Ph. Ds in Theology.  They are some of the smartest folks I know (along with a Mathematics Professor, an MD or two and wily farmer friend).

Most prefer to be addressed by their first names.

And yer point?

Mine is that the doctor title should be earned in a discipline that has discipline and rigor. The MD comes after 4 years in the classroom taking really hard courses.

THE KEY IS THE REALLY HARD COURSES.

You may well feel that concerns with whether Christ should be in Christmas, or are some countries more polite than others are serious concerns, the mastery of which is worthy of a doctorate.  I don't. 

We could make up much more appropriate titles for these other, dare I say, lesser concerns.

If you had a broader worldview you'd know I didn't make this shit up out of whole cloth.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

 

A perfect illustration of the ignorant contempt of education that is so widespread in the States and which gave you Trump.

Oh just stop the generalizations. You’re better than that.

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Just now, Dr. Blue Crab said:

You may well feel that concerns with whether Christ should be in Christmas,

Folks involved in Theology don't usually concern themselves with such issues.  The folks I know with Ph.D.s in Theology also had to take *really hard* courses, as do folks who get advanced degrees in Philosophy (something else I'm sure you think is either useless or easy).  I'm not saying you make shit up out of whole cloth, but as a Chemist, married to a Philosophy professor, I would suggest you get to know some folks in these fields, and find out exactly what they know, how they think, and if you could have easily attained the same mastery.

Could I have been an MD?  Sure -- but it's not a vocation that really appeals to me.  Could I have gotten an advanced degree in Philosophy or Theology?  Nope -- my brain isn't wired that way, and I find the problems they wrestle with and suss out really make my head hurt. So yes, there is hard work involved in those areas.

Are those things useful?  Yes, and we're seeing the practical application of these things play out in the current crisis, as some really sticky ethical issues raise their ugly heads.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Blue Crab said:

The Canadian outrage continues because: ................(wait for it) ..........................Canada

But looking past the kneejerk, how about using the examples I used? I used social science*, education, and theology as examples of silliness in being called doctor. Indeed, I opined it was less work to get an Ed.D. than a semester of biochemistry.  I suggested the insistence on using the honorific was pompous and shady. Bet your dad didn't insist on it  ... and using that in work-related professional correspondence is perfectly appropriate. Kinda what it's for, ask me.

Jon, do you have it in you to make a reasoned response to the facts at hand? Apparently not. You are not alone. So many smart guys here just have zero reading comprehension and then want to argue ad nauseam, deflect, make up shit, add elements not in evidence. The fact that some of you guys were successful at something doesn't make the cut discussing somethin' else. As evadent.

Good news: American Idol or maybe Dancing With the Stars is on tonight! And Wheel of Fortune! Yeah yeah, know you swear to only watch it becuz Jeopardy follows it. We are not fooled. 

*Probably many exceptions like a Psychologist who treats patients. Sounds right calling her doctor. 

It may be a bit pompous, but it is hardly shady. My wife has a PhD in engineering physics  but does not ever use the honorific. It is just a personal choice. I agree with Sloopy that a substantial portion of the US does have anti-intellectual views. May have something to do with the fact that in many states the football or basketball head coach in a state university earns much more than the governor or a publicly employed doctor of whatever stripe. Values matter as we see with the current mess in the US.

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Interestingly, (I'm channeling my inner Cliff Clavin here) the word doctor is derived from a latin word, which means "to teach." It came into use in medieval university's to denote someone's qualification as an academic. It was also used applied to the Apostles and early church fathers.  So, it has an academic and theological etymology.  Most of the English speaking world referred to MDs as "mister" until not that long ago. Thought about being pompous aside, who has the historical privilege to use the honorific?  By the way, I have a masters ("mister") in theology.  Biblical Hebrew was hard.  

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Dr. Blue Crab said:

 

THE KEY IS THE REALLY HARD COURSES.

 

Perhaps you could define 'really hard courses' (UPPER CASE or lower case). The fact that you think that medicine or physics  is hard does not make them so. As someone else suggested have a look at the doctoral level work in fields like theology or philosophy. One of my ex-students got her PhD in English from Cambridge and has just had a book published  on books, film, etc during WWII in England. In spite of my three university degrees (none in English) I find her stuff really hard to understand. In contrast, much of what is done in medicine or physics is pretty straightforward to me - I guess because my mind works well in that direction.

I am somewhat bothered when anyone with a doctorate of any sort calls themselves Dr. in social settings. It does seem a bit pretentious, but it is not an important enough issue for me to get my knickers in a knot over.

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