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Dinghy build: Two-Paw 8 nesting


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Let the sailmaking begin!  After the next step in the build, fiberglass taping all the seams tonight and tomorrow, I’ll turn to the sailing aspects of it: mast step install, dagger board trunk, etc.

Meanwhile, I’m stepping out of the way while our resident sewer/sailmaker takes over.  My 16 year old kid is very skilled at sewing, and a dinghy sailor too —so I’ll take a back seat on this part and just take some pics!

Absoutel final deadline for this project —as in, on the water and sailing/rowing— is the first full moon in July.  I’ve challenged a few friends to a dinghy race in our local bay then.  In the spirit of Race to Alaska and just human adventure in general, we’ll make it a 30-hour extravaganza, no sail plan rules (install a temporary bowsprit and fly a spinnaker if you like, row if the wind dies, etc.)  A couple heats the first day, kids and adults, retire to the big boat for drinks and food, then a full moon cruise, quite possibly more drinking and music until late, sleep aboard, and final heats the next day (perhaps only hungover adults that day, as a regatta/class requirement).  Should be fun.  (A few friends, inspired by my dinghy-building push lately, are restoring old dinghies of their own.)

 

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The kid, sailing the new dinghy.  Just launched today. Tons left to do to really “finish” it (we ran out of time to get everything done perfectly, since we wanted to launch it today), and plenty

B and B Yacht Designs Two-Paw 8.  (Would’ve loved to build the 9 instead but can’t seem to find room on deck for it nested b/c of a small deck box I built that mounts aft of the mast to hold crab trap

Just finished building rudder last night.  Lots of hardware left to install (to get ready for our “regatta” this Saturday)...  Hope to have some close up “finished” (well, almost...) pics shortly

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The problem, of course, with fibreglassing after work is that it’s a vicious circle.  You start only intending to do a small portion, you run your cloth...and then your small-ish batch of epoxy starts running low...you lay some more cloth...epoxy starts running low, mix some more...repeat, repeat...you get the picture :-). Suddenly, hours later, closer to bed time, you’re still going, tired, very tired.  Many, many metres of glass cloth go into the seams of an 8 ft boat!  But the large bulk of my fibreglassing is now almost done!

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Oh - work "wet on wet" - that means have 2 cups; one with thickened epoxy putty and one with straight resin for wetting out the tape.

Apply putty, smooth the radius, and then apply the tape right away. You get a much smoother seam, and no sanding of the putty ever required.

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

Oh - work "wet on wet" - that means have 2 cups; one with thickened epoxy putty and one with straight resin for wetting out the tape.

Apply putty, smooth the radius, and then apply the tape right away. You get a much smoother seam, and no sanding of the putty ever required.

That’s great know - I realized afterwards that I was sloppy with my seam fillets - “wet on wet” definitely sounds like the way to go to avoid much sanding!   Honestly, I was in a bit of a hurry - filling seams is a labour-intensive process I didn’t really enjoy, amd I wanted to “get it done” over the weekend.  But hurrying, of course, is usually the sure way to not do something well.
 

Oh well - (re) learned that lesson the hard way...

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15 hours ago, Zonker said:

Oh - work "wet on wet" - that means have 2 cups; one with thickened epoxy putty and one with straight resin for wetting out the tape.

Apply putty, smooth the radius, and then apply the tape right away. You get a much smoother seam, and no sanding of the putty ever required.

So, with stitch and glue dinghies I usually put in the fillet with epoxy and wood powder, clean up the mess as I go, let it set, then remove the frames one at a time as I tape, filling the fillet gaps as I go.

I don’t sand the fillets, just wipe them with acetone. This way the hardened fillets hold the boat in shape with the help of a few spacer sticks across the gunwhales.

I immediately replace each frame, and at the end fit them wet on wet, and once they harden I flip the boat and tape the outside seams.

What is the advantage of wet on wet for the whole hull? I can’t figure out a way to do it with this technique...
 

 

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Ok - since I design these as a sideline and have built 4 of them.  Two ways of efficiently doing this after stitching the hull:

1. Put _little_  dabs of thickened epoxy in the seams. Not big bloody fillets. Just glue to hold the panels together and replace zip ties. Let cure. If your boat has internal frames as most do, use them to define the hull shape. Or use spacer sticks as Olaf suggests though you need to make sure boat is correct width and still square.

2. Cut zip ties/remove wires. If you have big gaps in panel joins, cover with duct tape on the outside.

3. Fillet and tape seam on inside. Use a ziplock bag with the corner cut off like a pastry bag to do ONE seam. Move quickly and dispense lots of epoxy putty. Use a tongue depressor to make a nice radiused fillet. Use a second tongue depressor with a cut off end to remove the excess putty that is outside the radiused fillet. Then apply tape to the still wet fillet, and wet out with a brush. Repeat. Do not mix 8 oz of epoxy at a time unless its a cold day and you are capable of moving very fast. Mix small batches instead. Use a digital postal scale covered with plastic wrap rather than stupid mini pumps but that's a personal preference.

4. Flip boat over. Remove tape if present. Round outside seams where required with a sander if you are a careful dude. If you are fast dude like me, use an angle grinder and a 36 grit disc with the guard removed. Be gentle with it.

5. Fill any gaps with putty, and apply tape. Mix small batches of epoxy again. 

Method 2 (after the first boat):

1. Use plastic zip ties with the ratcheting catch on the outside of the hull. 

2. Fillet and tape inside seams. You will have little bumps on the inside where the zip ties are under the tape seams. So what, it's a dinghy. It's a workboat. It's not a fucking piece of art unless Russell Brown builds it. I'm not him so I don't care about little bumps.

3. Flip boat over. Cut off protruding cable ties. Sand any protruding bits with an angle grinder. This is why you used cable ties because copper wire is more of a bitch to sand the nubs down. Round outside seams as above.

4. Fill gaps in seams with putty, tape seams.

If you let your fillets harden, then wiping with acetone isn't really doing anything but cleaning them. Unless you apply tape within 24 hours you don't get a good chemical bond of tape to fillet. I don't remove the frames because I just tape up to them and stop.

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Thanks for that, I will try leaving the the frames in place for the next one and going wet on wet, it’s much easier.

Actually, I prefer building the pre S&G way with stringers, it’s how I started years ago, but all the boats I am interested in now are S&G designs.

The acetone thing was just to remove any residues that impair adhesion, I appreciate a wet bond is much stronger.

Another thing I have learnt is to mix in  wood flour, old sanding dust, to bulk out the fillet, I still use some silica as well.
 

 

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Another variation of the wet/wet method is to wet out pre cut lengths of the tape on a long plastic covered surface with a squeegee  then roll up the tape and roll it back out on the freshly filleted seam. It can be easier than trying to apply epoxy to  a tight inside seam and it helps to keep the tape in place. Usually no additional epoxy is needed once the tape is smoothed out.

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8 hours ago, cyclone said:

Another variation of the wet/wet method is to wet out pre cut lengths of the tape on a long plastic covered surface with a squeegee  then roll up the tape and roll it back out on the freshly filleted seam. It can be easier than trying to apply epoxy to  a tight inside seam and it helps to keep the tape in place. Usually no additional epoxy is needed once the tape is smoothed out.

That’s a Ph.D. in Wet-Wet.  I’ve just barely started my M.Sc. :-) 

Well, the good news is that the thickener/filler I used is easy to sand (when I bought it the guy at the fibreglass shop specifically asked me if it would be in an area that would be sanded...not knowing 100%, I said yes, and bought that type (fortunately).  It hasn’t required all that much sanding so far to fix the slight mess I made.

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All good then.

Wetting the tape out on plastic and then rolling it up (or carrying short lengths with 1 or 2 folds) is very epoxy efficient. But do brush the bare wood with a primer coat of epoxy shortly before applying the wet out tape - to ensure the tape is not starved of epoxy by the wood sucking it out.

This also works well if you have a helper child applying the fillets while you wet out the tape. Much easier on your adult back if you are standing upright at work table wetting out tape and more limber child is bent over applying the fillet material.

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Looking toward the finishing details, I’ve just bought a pair of these from Duckworks so I can stow the oars in two pieces each in custom wood holders I’ll build into each hull side.  I’ve found storing oars on board a bit of a pain:  this will solve it.

https://www.duckworks.com/product-p/lo_oar.htm

I hope to build the daggerboard trunk and fibreglass mast tube this weekend.  Rudder next week.

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The ceremonial Cutting of the First Wire Tie!  :-)  My kid cut off the first one last night.  (The green wire in the foreground, which had  lots of anyway, was required to pull the bow transom panels tight to the hull sides in those areas - a fair bit of tension there, we found.)

Great project to do with a teenager, especially if you build it (i.e., do the assembly part) relatively fast instead of stretching the project out over many months.  The kid helper gets to see the results quickly (and probably learn more that way).

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18 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

And now, for a small, terrible and nostalgic musical interlude :-) 

 

WTF? The Brits already have their Chavs - now they need to emulate 'Murican Dipshit Rednecks? Yecch.

This is yet another stain on the musical world. Nuke it from orbit.

 

BW, really enjoy the dinghy build postings. Just spare us from this crap, please ;-)

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2 hours ago, rattus32 said:

WTF? The Brits already have their Chavs - now they need to emulate 'Murican Dipshit Rednecks? Yecch.

This is yet another stain on the musical world. Nuke it from orbit.

 

BW, really enjoy the dinghy build postings. Just spare us from this crap, please ;-)

Well, there’s this instead.  You’ll be tapping your toes and dancing along in no time. :-). 1996 or so, was it?  I remember being in a club in Washington, DC around that time and [gasp] dancing to this.  Probably because the girl I was out with that night with was into it :-) :-)


But back to our program - I just escaped the incredibly toxic-smelling Covid 19-killing fumes of S1 epoxy sealer/primer.  Having recently purchased another kit of WEST System epoxy and gotten sticker shock (especially realizing how much more I’ll need), I realized it might be a good idea to prime all of the surfaces that are to be WEST coated - to minimize how much gets sucked into the porous wood surfaces (and therefore use less of it).  The Two-Paw plans call for three coats of epoxy on wood surfaces (apart from fibreglassed areas).  I had some of the 2-part S1 epoxy sealer kicking around for a while from a previous project, not needed anymore, so I decided to use it up on this - I coated the entire boat and every single part.  Unlike normal epoxy, this stuff has very heavy fumes, so I’m dancing the Macarena right now :-) :-). Awful stuff (the fumes, and maybe the Macarena too) but I think it’ll help me use less WEST epoxy (for coating wood surfaces).  

So - update:  yesterday I prepped the boat for fibreglass by clipping off all the zap straps and wire.  I used a jig saw and coarse rasp to smooth all the joints.  Zonker recommended a grinder with a 36 grit sanding wheel but I only have metal grinding and cutting disks, no sanding disks and, besides, I hate the noise and crazy grit/dust of grinders (except for when doing metal work), so I used my rasp.  I also enjoy working with hand tools sometimes, like a plane for carving a kayak paddle, and wanted something a bit more “delicate”, with more feel, than a grinder so that I wouldn’t grind the seams too far!  Wasn’t that hard by hand especially since I “prepped” joints ahead of time by trimming with a jig saw with the base set at an angle when/where needed.   I then epoxy sealed the entire outside of the boat after fibreglass taping all the seams.  The plans call for one layer only; I put two on the chine-transom seams, and keel seam, reasoning that they might see a bit more abrasion.  (I’ll install rub strips or whatever they’re called on the bottom/keel too.  A few extra strips of glass tape won’t add any appreciable weight to the boat, of course. I am not fibreglassing the bottom —as Graham recommends not doing, since he feels it’s not necessary, and it also adds undesirable weight to the boat.)

I also dry-fitted and trimmed (to the “as-built” boat) the two stern quarter seats, and the bow deck preliminary to installing them in the next day or so.  
 

But, before that, much more excitingly, since it’s for making the boat sail, I’ll glue on the mast step and make the belowdecks support tube for the mast.  

Many thanks to Alan at B&B for this video!  

 

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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Having recently purchased another kit of WEST System epoxy and gotten sticker shock (especially realizing how much more I’ll need), I realized it might be a good idea to prime all of the surfaces that are to be WEST coated - to minimize how much gets sucked into the porous wood surfaces (and therefore use less of it).  The Two-Paw plans call for three coats of epoxy on wood surfaces (apart from fibreglassed areas).  I had some of the 2-part S1 epoxy sealer kicking around for a while from a previous project, not needed anymore, so I decided to use it up on this - I coated the entire boat and every single part.  Unlike normal epoxy, this stuff has very heavy fumes, so I’m dancing the Macarena right now :-) :-). Awful stuff (the fumes, and maybe the Macarena too) but I think it’ll help me use less WEST epoxy (for coating wood surfaces).

https://www.systemthree.com/products/s-1-clear-penetrating-epoxy-sealer

I'm no expert but is mixing products/brands (SystemThree sealer and West epoxy) really a good idea?  I noticed a few posts back that your fillets are white, which I've never seen before on West epoxy projects.  I've always thought that West is a complete system of fillers and epoxies that are made for each other.

https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-system/product-selection-guide/

 

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

https://www.systemthree.com/products/s-1-clear-penetrating-epoxy-sealer

I'm no expert but is mixing products/brands (SystemThree sealer and West epoxy) really a good idea?  I noticed a few posts back that your fillets are white, which I've never seen before on West epoxy projects.  I've always thought that West is a complete system of fillers and epoxies that are made for each other.

https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-system/product-selection-guide/

 

No idea, but very good point.  I’m generally fairly “lackadaisical”, or at least not overly fastidious and concerned (probably just naive), about such chemical compatibility/adhesion matters (except when it comes to Interlux 2-part paints, where I follow the specified procedures/products) - I’ve used this System 3 S1 epoxy sealer before on another project and then used another WEST epoxy (G Flex) over top of it with no ill effects.  

Fingers crossed the WEST system epoxy (206 slow hardener) I’m using now for the rest of this project will adhere ok...........would be very bad if there’s an issue...

The filler material (glass bubbles) I’m using is from the same fibreglass shop I bought the WEST 206 kit from - they recommended using it because it’s apparently easier to sand compared to another filler material they sell...so I assume it’s all good (appears to be fine).

I should probably do a light sand before I apply the actual epoxy over the S1 primed surfaces.

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Applying WEST over another epoxy should be fine providing the prior application has cured, you’ve removed any amine blush and you have a clean and sanded surface to adhere to. Looks like a great project and  kudos for including the kids.

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1 hour ago, cyclone said:

Applying WEST over another epoxy should be fine providing the prior application has cured, you’ve removed any amine blush and you have a clean and sanded surface to adhere to. Looks like a great project and  kudos for including the kids.

Thanks for the info.  As I think of it, I did already (well over a month ago, when I started cutting out the pieces)  apply some sealer to a few pieces of plywood, which I later West epoxied over.  So far, I’ve had no (haven’t noticed any) issues with adhesion.  However - I should be much more thorough/methodical going forward re: adhesion.

Good reminder- thanks!

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4 hours ago, cyclone said:

Applying WEST over another epoxy should be fine providing the prior application has cured, you’ve removed any amine blush and you have a clean and sanded surface to adhere to. Looks like a great project and  kudos for including the kids.

that's the procedure regardless of mixing brands, no?

the only stitch and glue boat i ever built was in the 9's when amine blush was a upfront topic.  I seem to remember the high end epoxies like S3 and west marketing their products as no blush or low blush;  I don't see it mentioned prominently now.

isn't the bigger issue reducing the depth of the chemical bond if you use a sealer coat and let it cue before doing the fillets, tape and cloth?  

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16 minutes ago, chester said:

that's the procedure regardless of mixing brands, no?

With West you can typically get a chemical bond for a while even after it's hardened - a couple days or so, depending on hardener and temperature. After it's fully cured you'll need to give it a scrub with water to remove the blush, then scuff it up with some 80 grit. If in doubt - better assume it's cured and prep for the mechanical bond.

Given that this is a stitch and glue dinghy and not some highly stressed, critical, carbon bonding operation I would git'er done and call it good. Personally I would have stuck with West system for everything, if only to avoid the nasty fumes of the sealer, but I totally understand the draw of trying to use what you have on hand. That's why I've spent the last few weeks trying to get a decent roller finish with some 2 part poly automotive paint that I inherited with a boat rather than just buying the damn marine paint which would have worked right the first time :ph34r:

Speaking of amine blush, make sure you let it all cure for a week or so, then give it a good scrub with water and a scotchbrite pad, before you try and paint it.

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1 hour ago, andykane said:

With West you can typically get a chemical bond for a while even after it's hardened - a couple days or so, depending on hardener and temperature. After it's fully cured you'll need to give it a scrub with water to remove the blush, then scuff it up with some 80 grit. If in doubt - better assume it's cured and prep for the mechanical bond.

Given that this is a stitch and glue dinghy and not some highly stressed, critical, carbon bonding operation I would git'er done and call it good. Personally I would have stuck with West system for everything, if only to avoid the nasty fumes of the sealer, but I totally understand the draw of trying to use what you have on hand. That's why I've spent the last few weeks trying to get a decent roller finish with some 2 part poly automotive paint that I inherited with a boat rather than just buying the damn marine paint which would have worked right the first time :ph34r:

Speaking of amine blush, make sure you let it all cure for a week or so, then give it a good scrub with water and a scotchbrite pad, before you try and paint it.

Thanks - really appreciate the advice and ideas.

BTW, the fibreglass shop I bought the WEST epoxy from recently, and the S1 sealer from a year or more ago, said to simply sand the sealer-sealed plywood a bit before putting on the WEST epoxy.  No chemical compatibility issues of concern.

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2 hours ago, chester said:

isn't the bigger issue reducing the depth of the chemical bond if you use a sealer coat and let it cure before doing the fillets, tape and cloth?

That's my gut feeling too, that the first coat of epoxy applied to raw wood is the most important for both structural and sealing reasons.  After that, it's bonding epoxy to epoxy and there is no more saturation of the wood involved.  I understand not wanting the wood to soak up too much epoxy but have this vague memory about "WEST" being short for "Wood End grain Saturation Technique", though I could be wrong about that?  In any case, the combination of structural bonding along with encapsulation of the wood to protect it from water are the key features in my mind.  I've never considered epoxy to be just another "superglue" adhesive.

The Gougeon Brothers On Boat Construction book (free download)
https://www.westsystem.com/the-gougeon-brothers-on-boat-construction/

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West is actually one of the worst offenders for amine blush. WEST was I think Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique - but if you slice a piece of wood that has been liberally coated with the stuff, you'll find it only penetrates about 1mm or so. So they stopped referring to it as saturation.

Yes, it's fine for mixing epoxies if first one has cured. Just wipe blush and sand lightly.

If an epoxy has strong fumes it's because they've cut it with cheap solvents to make it runnier - and to save them money. Solvents are way cheaper than epoxy ingredients. Good epoxies have almost no smell (except the amine hardeners if you stick your nose up real close) and are 100% solids.

I've always suggested s&g dinghies get TWO coats of epoxy not three because that does seem to do a perfectly good job of coating all the wood. THink of of it more as coating it with a plastic coating. Then the paint protects the epoxy from UV.

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All epoxies produce amine blush, even the ones that advertise "no blush" hardeners. West 207 hardener is called low-blush, but I've never seen or felt blush from it. 207 has roughly the same physical properties as 205 or 206 hardeners, so good for gluing, coating, glassing, etc. It also can be painted or varnished as soon as it can be sanded without "beading", usually 2 days, but less with a post cure. It's more expensive than 205 or 206 (and 3:1 instead of 5:1), but it's the best handling all-around epoxy I've used and has gotten better over the years. West publishes data that is honest to a fault, others maybe not. One of them publishes physical properties that are very far off. Not saying who. 

Low blush epoxies can be recoated the next morning without prep, but it's not a good idea to bond to glossy hard epoxy without sanding first.  

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I don't remember exactly which Ampreg epoxies we were using on the AC boats, but the numbers sound familiar. It worked and it had a slightly higher HDT than West, but it wasn't as friendly and had lots of amine blush. I think Pro-Set is the go-to for those guys now. What's Ampreg 21 & 22 intended for?

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They are pretty similar - wet and bagged layups though 22 is said to be "optimized for large structures" i.e. big open molds. I mostly used 21 because the initial low viscosity with and the extra slow hardener is great in the tropics. Super long pot life. 500g @ 20 deg C was 5-1/2 HOURS. Of course when the temps were > 30 degrees it was lots less but was still very workable.

Never saw significant blush though I was only working with it on small projects. Got it when I was in S.Africa from AMT (really good composite shop)

The parts were dyed blue and yellow and when mixed properly turned a nice lime green. Was easy to tell if the mix was undermixed.

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6 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Sometimes, as you know, you have to give blood - the project demands it!

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I hate fibreglass.

My boat got its blood sacrifice as well, FWIW. And some really nice burns from those stainless welds that looked like they'd cooled, but actually hadn't.

FKT

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18 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Sometimes, as you know, you have to give blood - the project demands it!

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Are you using a cover sheet? Next best thing to vacuum bagging and it keeps the shards to a minimum... I haven't had any in years.

FB- Doug

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Are you using a cover sheet? Next best thing to vacuum bagging and it keeps the shards to a minimum... I haven't had any in years.

FB- Doug

I used a cover sheet and couldn't see anything through it.

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14 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Those shards are called "meathooks" for a reason. 

No, no, no.  Bad explanation by me.  The blood was drawn in a much more prosaic way —by a knife, not by any fibreglass shards, etc. (It hadn’t occurred to me that the pic would suggest meathooks were to blame.)

It was like this.  Fibreglass tape has a serged/hemmed edge, as you know.  Whatever it’s called, that edge is slightly thicker than the rest of the cloth.  After it’s been wetted out and dried, the edge is fairly “bulky” - a pain to sand down, since it’s fairly thick.  I had discovered earlier that my glassing was pretty sub par (another post on that later: that “wound” is still a bit too fresh :-) ), so I used my knife to open up several (er, many) bubbles that had dried under the glass, unbeknownst to me after wetting everything out and squeegeeing.  While using that knife, whose blade rounds up toward the tip, it occurred to me that I might be able to use the knife to shave off that raised bulky edge off the hardened glass tape.  It took a bit of experimenting with the angle of the blade and motion of the stroke, but it actually worked very well (a bit to my surprise), like a spokeshave or plane, trimming off that raised edge pretty smoothly.  Then, naturally, working away quickly and smoothly, my finger got in the way... :-)  Neptune, or whichever of his delegates who oversees boatbuilding, had been watching...

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

No, no, no.  Bad explanation by me.  The blood was drawn in a much more prosaic way —by a knife, not by any fibreglass shards, etc. (It hadn’t occurred to me that the pic would suggest meathooks were to blame.)

It was like this.  Fibreglass tape has a serged/hemmed edge, as you know.  Whatever it’s called, that edge is slightly thicker than the rest of the cloth.  After it’s been wetted out and dried, the edge is fairly “bulky” - a pain to sand down, since it’s fairly thick.  I had discovered earlier that my glassing was pretty sub par (another post on that later: that “wound” is still a bit too fresh :-) ), so I used my knife to open up several (er, many) bubbles that had dried under the glass, unbeknownst to me after wetting everything out and squeegeeing.  While using that knife, whose blade rounds up toward the tip, it occurred to me that I might be able to use the knife to shave off that raised bulky edge off the hardened glass tape.  It took a bit of experimenting with the angle of the blade and motion of the stroke, but it actually worked very well (a bit to my surprise), like a spokeshave or plane, trimming off that raised edge pretty smoothly.  Then, naturally, working away quickly and smoothly, my finger got in the way... :-)  Neptune, or whichever of his delegates who oversees boatbuilding, had been watching...

Sharp block plane.

The trick with epoxy is to avoid sanding wherever possible and use sharp tools, so a good steel cabinet scraper does a much better job than a sander.

block planes on raised edges and bubbles.

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What I mean by a cover sheet is what some people have called "the wax paper trick." Except I don't use wax paper, I use plastic sheet that Lowe's sells as cheap painter's drop cloth.

Cut a piece slightly bigger than the lay-up area. Do the lay-up, wt out the cloth, an added frill I do is mix some low density filler and smooth over the cloth surface and especially the selvedge edge of the FG cloth tape. Then lay the cover sheet on. It's like vacuum bagging without the vacuum.

One really nice thing is, if keep it clean, you can now take your gloves off and work on the surface with your fingers. It's both more satisfying, like mud pies, and you can also work it much more accurately (precision mud pies!). You can see the bubbles and work them all out, and the cover sheet keeps the lay-up from sucking air back into itself. I often use blue tape along one edge when I've got it down tight, and work toward the other edge. You can squeeze out excess resin for a really tight lay-up, no bubble, no unbonded strands waiting to stab you.

The best thing is when it's cured and you peel it, that bumpy potentially peel-y edge is bonded super-tight and so smooth it's almost imperceptible. And the surface is smooth so you do MUCH less sanding. The next improvement, if you're going to be bonding more pieces to the surface, is peel ply. Then you don't have to sand at all.

FB- Doug

 

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4 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Sharp block plane.

The trick with epoxy is to avoid sanding wherever possible and use sharp tools, so a good steel cabinet scraper does a much better job than a sander.

block planes on raised edges and bubbles.

Agree with this. Cut green epoxy, it's easy. Sanding has it's place but it is a last resort and IMO to be avoided on green epoxy. Once you use a cabinet scraper you won't be without one, guaranteed. I used a 14" farrier's rasp I had laying around to provide perfectly flat and straight lines on the stems of one project.

Farrier rasp;

Samick-THK-Majestar-Rasp-copy.png?154414

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9 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Sharp block plane.

The trick with epoxy is to avoid sanding wherever possible and use sharp tools, so a good steel cabinet scraper does a much better job than a sander.

block planes on raised edges and bubbles.

A set of decent cabinet scrapers of differing weights and profiles and a little practice sharpening them is one of the best all around time and money investments for epoxy or wood work. It's a pleasure when you get the hook right and see the shavings curl off the surface. 

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What you are calling a cover sheet is better done with Peel-ply. I tend to use cheap ripstop nylon in bright colours that the fabric stores have on sale for $1-2/yard instead of proper peel ply. 

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17 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

It's a pleasure when you get the hook right and see the shavings curl off the surface.

It's also much quieter and less dusty than sanding and you can achieve a better surface. Fiberglass and epoxy dull scrapers quickly and I find burnishing a good hook tedious. It's heresy but for epoxy I now just refresh the scraper edge by with a vertical sander. Briefly bumping the edge against the belt gives me a single burr that cuts well and will last until my fingers need a rest.

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15 hours ago, Zonker said:

What you are calling a cover sheet is better done with Peel-ply. I tend to use cheap ripstop nylon in bright colours that the fabric stores have on sale for $1-2/yard instead of proper peel ply. 

Peel ply will still have an open resin surface but it's the bee's knees for getting a really tight lay-up.

A cover sheet is cheaper and quicker and after ~40ish years I am finally doing some laminating/expoxy repair jobs and not coming home with resin in my hair. Much easier to keep the work area neat!

FB- Doug

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10 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Peel ply will still have an open resin surface but it's the bee's knees for getting a really tight lay-up.

A cover sheet is cheaper and quicker and after ~40ish years I am finally doing some laminating/expoxy repair jobs and not coming home with resin in my hair. Much easier to keep the work area neat!

FB- Doug

Not that it's helpful for dinghies but I would much, MUCH rather use a welder & grinder than go anywhere near fibreglass & epoxy. I hate that toxic, sticky shit.

FKT

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Not that it's helpful for dinghies but I would much, MUCH rather use a welder & grinder than go anywhere near fibreglass & epoxy. I hate that toxic, sticky shit.

FKT

We're even, I hate things that spit and burn. I have no epoxy scars, but several brands.

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

We're even, I hate things that spit and burn. I have no epoxy scars, but several brands.

Burns, yeah, been there. But I know at least 3 people with massive problems WRT epoxy sensitivity. OK they were careless in its use, still can't come anywhere near the stuff. At least burns (generally) heal up OK. I have one from welding new fittings in my foredeck to remind me.

I'm using epoxy paint on the boat ATM but wearing a lot of protective gear to keep the paint off of my skin.

I keep fantasisiing about a very lightweight aluminium nesting dinghy.

FKT

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Coming together - slowly.  Framing the support pieces for the foredeck and “king post” that supports the mast tube (yet to be fabricated), and two aft flotation tanks (that will also allow a stern seat to be mounted).  Looks easy, and it mostly is, but quite time-consuming and fiddly to get to fit right.  

These will be done and fully epoxy coated (insides of each air/flotation compartment, now and stern), and daggerboard trunk made, by end of weekend.  

Meanwhile, while coats of epoxy are drying this weekend, I’ll finally begin shaping the foils, and perhaps planning oar fabrication (unless I get lazy and just buy some oars, a distinct possibility!)  Love the sexy take-apart carbon fibre oar connectors that just showed up from Duckworks!

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Just learned that R2AK team Narwal racer and boat owner built a Two Paw 9 nesting dinghy a while back.  It was used for the return to Seattle.  It had good reviews from the crew.  (Bill the owner could not participate in the return).  You might get a glimpse of it in a few days on the NW Multihull website as the June Zoom meeting was recorded and will eventually be posted there with the minutes.  There were a couple pics of the Two Paw being used.  The presentation was about the return via the west side of Vancouver Island with pictures of popular cruising stops.

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46 minutes ago, eric1207 said:

Just learned that R2AK team Narwal racer and boat owner built a Two Paw 9 nesting dinghy a while back.  It was used for the return to Seattle.  There were a couple pics of the Two Paw being used.  The presentation was about the return via the west side of Vancouver Island with pictures of popular cruising stops.

So that means they fitted out the Two-Paw for World Sailing Cat 1 or Cat 2 requirements?  Not sure which would apply :-) :-)  That would be a wild ride down the west coast of Vancouver Island...do-able if you beach the boat nightly (maybe sleep underneath it turtled...oops, the nesting bulkhead would be in the way... :-) :-) )

(Thanks- will have a look.)

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Jud, its not up yet.  It may be a few days.  You know; volunteer labour and all.  And you will likely have to scan thru the ~1.5 hour presentation to find the pics of the 2 paw, probably around the early to mid point.  I found it an interesting presentation though. 

No no no.  I'm not sure those are smiley faces or what, but I didn't see any purple font so I want to make sure you got my drift; the 2 paw 9 was not the main ship, it was just the dinghy for the Farrier 32 trimaran.

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11 minutes ago, eric1207 said:

Jud, its not up yet.  It may be a few days.  You know; volunteer labour and all.  And you will likely have to scan thru the ~1.5 hour presentation to find the pics of the 2 paw, probably around the early to mid point.  I found it an interesting presentation though. 

No no no.  I'm not sure those are smiley faces or what, but I didn't see any purple font so I want to make sure you got my drift; the 2 paw 9 was not the main ship, it was just the dinghy for the Farrier 32 trimaran.

Those were grins  [old school, pre-instant emoji icons, and sideways], big time :-) :-)

______(\______

[sailboat heeled over]

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Framing in for the two stern quarter flotation tanks, and for the foredeck and king post, and a rough start on the fibreglass mast tube.  Forward starboard quarter knee (ties starboard hull side to bow transom) in. Three left to install.
 

I’ve found this stage to be hard. The framing is fiddly to get to fit properly and important to get right.  The boat looks like a boat at this stage, i.e., after you open up the hull panels and glass them you get that “ah, it’s almost there!” feeling —but there is a while lot left to do, and you’re impatient to “get it done”.  I figure I’m about a week or so ‘behind’ where I thought (realistically or not) I’d be.  Oh well - takes time.  But a deadline is bracing, it’s good.
 

I have exactly one month to get the boat finished for our “first full moon of July regatta/midnight cruise extravaganza”.  No problem!  I’ve been at it daily for a few weeks after work, so just have to keep up the pace a bit longer...

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Rudder and daggerboard shaped and partially epoxy coated.  (No pics now.)

Quarter knees installed.  Bow and two aft flotation tanks, and centreboard trunk, and fiberglass mast support tube roughed in - all almost ready for installation. I put in two 9 hr days over the weekend...I’m finding it extraordinary how much time it takes to do all this, and I’m pretty competent with tools and basically have what I need.  But, so it is.  A day or so later than I was hoping, but I should have all these big parts installed very soon.  The plan is to cut boat in half this weekend and start sanding and prepping for paint.  Fingers crossed...but I think doable.

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 The plan is to cut boat in half this weekend...

Don't give up, you're almost there! :ph34r:

 

I've built a bunch of small boats and get reminded every time that "the hull is the easy part". All those little bits and pieces always take me way longer than expected - looks like you're making great progress.

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Anyone have any suggestions for a hard-wearing/durable, one-part, affordable paint for my dinghy inside? (For outside, I plan to use Interlux Brightsides  b/c i have a free can, it’s durable, and matches boat.)

Was thinking this stuff below. Never used this kind of paint (elastomeric), but it seems like it would be very durable (being very flexible; and the technical specs on the product look impressive); it’s one-part paint; and certainly cheaper than marine paint.  Key criteria is that it seems like it would be very durable.  Any thoughts?

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/behr-elastomeric-masonry-stucco-brick-paint-deep-base-3-43-l/1000751772

EB49D021-8801-43F1-9489-400A39CCD939.png

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If you don't want to use marine paint for reasons of cost or availability, I would suggest a urethane floor paint.  Those are formulated similarly to one-part topsides paint.

The elastomeric paints are fine for things that flex but don't have the abrasion resistance you would want.

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39 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

If you don't want to use marine paint for reasons of cost or availability, I would suggest a urethane floor paint.  Those are formulated similarly to one-part topsides paint.

The elastomeric paints are fine for things that flex but don't have the abrasion resistance you would want.

Yep. I've been using Acrylic (urethane fortified) enamels on my boats for years. It last longer than oil, is cheap and easier for me(for reasons you mention). But I've given up trying to explain that to people. 
 

I use a Valspar Porch and Floor for the interior of the dinghy. It holds up better than oil and doesn't flake. It's easy to rough up and put another coat on each spring. 

853146206_MJpaintingEVE(1of1).thumb.jpg.f2663ebddca65fa733d87014def5e3c5.jpg

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

This (these bolts and wing nuts) can only mean one thing.  The drama, involving a sharp saw and cutting a boat in half (for the  first and hopefully last time in my life :-) ) is about to begin.  Stay tuned for the livestream...time wake up the teenager (1:00 pm in the summer is sleeping in time for teenagers?) to get a hand flipping over the boat.  

The saw and its myriad little raspy, biting teeth, has been sharpened...

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Surprisingly difficult to get the saw through.  Did I accidentally epoxy the bulkheads together?! :-)

I think I may have hot glued in a few too many 1” square cardboard spacers?  Something seems to keep binding on the saw.  Oh well, time for lunch and a beer.  It’s been over an hour so far of trying to hand saw!

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On 2/12/2020 at 10:41 PM, Russell Brown said:

I'm not super impressed with that connective hardware method. I'd rather see you use studs and wingnuts, or use bolts with knobs bonded on to the heads that thread into threaded washers (or bonded nuts) in the fwd half.

McMaster-Carr have some really nice wingbolts in 316 stainless.  They also have some really nice nuts in 316 stainless that have a large integral washer (1"+, several choices) pre-drilled with many holes so it will adhere readily when bedded in epoxy.

I think we're all a fan of Russell's connector hardware, you know, the ones in the safe defended by the Nordic shield maidens.  OTOH there's some nice hardware at McMaster-Carr for like $10 a set that is 80% as good.

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Well, that only took like 5+ hours!  On and off - with lunch in between.  Still, surprisingly difficult, with saw blade continually pinching, going off track from the very narrow gap in between the bulkheads, into a bulkhead -  nothing that a little epoxy and glass can’t fix, still a bit a annoying.  
 

A shot through the wedged open crack between the bulkheads to take lunching pressure off the saw blade.
 

Nests perfectly.  Solid 24k oarlocks because nothing is too good for the little yacht! :-)

Liteally just started raining —it’s been threatening to all day— as soon as we got the boat cut in half and back in the shed.  All in all, a lot harder and took a blot more time than anticipated, but she’s “done”! :-)

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1 hour ago, 2airishuman said:

McMaster-Carr have some really nice wingbolts in 316 stainless.  They also have some really nice nuts in 316 stainless that have a large integral washer (1"+, several choices) pre-drilled with many holes so it will adhere readily when bedded in epoxy.

I think we're all a fan of Russell's connector hardware, you know, the ones in the safe defended by the Nordic shield maidens.  OTOH there's some nice hardware at McMaster-Carr for like $10 a set that is 80% as good.

80% as good? I wanna see that. Post links.

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22 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

80% as good? I wanna see that. Post links.

Bolts, OK these are 18-8 not 316.  Nonetheless..

https://www.mcmaster.com/92625A128

https://www.mcmaster.com/92625A124

Nuts:

https://www.mcmaster.com/98007A412 - in 316, two sizes of bonding washer available

https://www.mcmaster.com/98697A800 - in 18-8, but available in 1/2 UNC if the larger size is necessary

Now, are they captive? Only the nut.  Do they seal so they can be used below the waterline? No, but you can use a gasket or o-ring or something on the facing surfaces if you need that.  And they hold the pieces together securely without using a wrench, which is what the whole thing is about.

Whether that solves 80% of the problem is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

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I hadn't seen the nuts with the bonding washers before. Thanks. Have spent countless hours on Mcmaster looking for a cheaper solution. Ours is too complicated and expensive. No argument there.

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5 hours ago, 2airishuman said:

Bolts, OK these are 18-8 not 316.  Nonetheless..

https://www.mcmaster.com/92625A128

https://www.mcmaster.com/92625A124

Nuts:

https://www.mcmaster.com/98007A412 - in 316, two sizes of bonding washer available

https://www.mcmaster.com/98697A800 - in 18-8, but available in 1/2 UNC if the larger size is necessary

Now, are they captive? Only the nut.  Do they seal so they can be used below the waterline? No, but you can use a gasket or o-ring or something on the facing surfaces if you need that.  And they hold the pieces together securely without using a wrench, which is what the whole thing is about.

Whether that solves 80% of the problem is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Those nuts are really neat. I've always made mine by welding a nut to a piece of flat stainless. Or for a blind threaded hole, an acorn nut.

Which is how my chameleon dinghy clamps together - the male threaded part is 316 allthread epoxied into hardwood timber gripping handles machined & fluted for grip. They work quite well but a bit of a PITA to make.

FKT

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Nice build. 

 

I just put a pair of those oarlocks with the nylon insert, on my dinghy. The locks wear quickly (for us) and get sloppy in a few years.

 

I get a new pair and move the tightest of the old locks, to the forward rowing station (which is used only about 1/4 of the time). 

 

I compared the new locks to old and see the casting is larger, to make room for the nylon of course, but's thicker as well.

 

I wonder if nylon replacements are available? 

 

Anyway, I noticed the inserts can back out with the horn/ring pin so I epoxied mine in. The locks will be near useless if you lose an insert. 

 

So far, I like them after a row.  Tight fit, silent, no friction. One is too tight still and takes a bit to remove the oar (it will wear in I guess). 

 

They turn verdigris almost overnight in the salt air. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

I just put a pair of those oarlocks with the nylon insert, on my dinghy. The locks wear quickly (for us) and get sloppy in a few years.

I wondered about this and would be interested to hear how long the nylon inserts last.

1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

I wonder if nylon replacements are available? 

I've seen them for sale and a google search turns up several (oar lock insert, oar lock bushing).  There is probably more than one size.

We used to grease the aluminum ones on the fishing boats and duck boats of my misspent youth.

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Our Old Town square stern canoe has been used for 25 years to row out to our moorings. It has plastic, probably nylon, oarlocks that have never been replaced. My Row-Wing sliding-seat rower had plastic bushed oar locks, probably Concept 2.  I have no complaints about plastic oar locks. 

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On June 20, 2020 at 9:37 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Well, that only took like 5+ hours!  On and off - with lunch in between.  Still, surprisingly difficult, with saw blade continually pinching, going off track from the very narrow gap in between the bulkheads, into a bulkhead -  nothing that a little epoxy and glass can’t fix, still a bit a annoying.  
 

A shot through the wedged open crack between the bulkheads to take lunching pressure off the saw blade.
 

Nests perfectly.  Solid 24k oarlocks because nothing is too good for the little yacht! :-)

Liteally just started raining —it’s been threatening to all day— as soon as we got the boat cut in half and back in the shed.  All in all, a lot harder and took a blot more time than anticipated, but she’s “done”! :-)

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I thought that if you were a really good magician the trick was to make it look like you sawed your assistant in half, boats not so much.

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4 hours ago, cyclone said:

Our Old Town square stern canoe has been used for 25 years to row out to our moorings. It has plastic, probably nylon, oarlocks that have never been replaced. My Row-Wing sliding-seat rower had plastic bushed oar locks, probably Concept 2.  I have no complaints about plastic oar locks. 

Type of plastic probably makes a difference, I expect Delrin or acetal is a bit more wear resistant than nylon. But yes, I have 700+ miles on my boat with Concept II oarlocks and they are just fine. 

Inspired by this thread. I have a good spot on the cabin top for a nesting dinghy....

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10 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I wonder why the Gaco oarlocks and sockets aren't used by everyone with a rowing dinghy? I think they are great and much lighter than anything else.

Because they are plastick and offend people's traditionalist bronze-age sensibilities.

 

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I offended sensibilities over at WBF when I told of painting brass oarlocks with bronze paint

I was wanting to get the boat on the water after I finished working on it and Duckworks was out of bronze. The Rust-Oleum hammered bronze paint has texture and varied colors. I sprayed it over copper colored paint to give it the right look and it holds up better than I thought it would. They match the oarlock sockets quite well.

I even peed on the oarlocks to give them a patina but that just turned them dark.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/22/2020 at 10:13 AM, Russell Brown said:

I wonder why the Gaco oarlocks and sockets aren't used by everyone with a rowing dinghy? I think they are great and much lighter than anything else.

Quieter, too.

The squawking of oar locks as you're rowing has  a kind of charm, but when it goes on and on and on and on, the charm fades.

FB- Doug

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