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Cutter Rig Going Wing N Wing


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Cutter Rig Going Wing N Wing

Crossing oceans many boats sail in higher winds w twin jibs winged out, w/o using the main. Sailing with a wind vane the S/A far forward for better tracking.

Are your spinnaker poles different lengths for use with different head stay J measurements?

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Single carbon pole ...adjustable to two different lengths ...

inner pole ...outer pole ...pin lock into position 

 

staysail always poled to windward 

Genoa on the rail to leeward 

125 is about max angle 

 

the longer the the pole the higher you can sail

double reef in main is common to control chafe and make life easier on the autopilot 

1CCB9FB3-6EF6-48B0-9861-D7C791CC23B3.png

44767FED-1B0E-4384-93BA-4DC16656D8D1.png

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Trust me, you're not in the GGR, although you may be planning on it. But if you're asking this question here, perhaps it's time to reconsider.

Same length. As long as possible such that they can be gybed without removing from the mast. Offshore jaws; bring spares. Don't scrimp on deck chocks. Consider a pair of poles with nesting diameters that allow either to be used as a splice for the other. Don't forget hacksaw blades and a pop rivet gun.

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Both Aluminum & non-adjustable.

Correct, I am an entrant in the 2022 GGR. Bought my boat. It is a cutter rig, so... when sailing a Symmetrical Spinnaker I need a long pole. The Staysail (cutter), to be poled out should be a pole set to that length. That's why I'm asking the question. Also, I need the 2 poles for my jury rig. See the problem. I do not believe there are any (stupid) questions. So, I'm asking to see if someone out there has come across the same problem.

 

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Swan 65 and this was a performance delivery, not a race: We had a big genoa poled out with the standard spin pole, and a free flying Yankee on the other side; 1st reef in the main, and no mizzen. Fairly stable, but gybing took about half an hour.  :lol: 

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A pole for headsails is about 1.3 +J 

the same ratio for a staysail 1.3 + j2

 

what are the rules for your regatta ?

 

your pole will also fly  a spinnaker ?

 

on small boat a long pole can be dangerous... it plugs into waves when you roll out 

you must get together with your sailmaker and devise a plan 

 

a good reference for poled out headsail aerodynamics is the book by the Australian designer Bethwaite

 

 

 

 

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Single-handed sailing on this size boat usually only carries the symmetrical to about 150-170 up to 20 kts. Higher winds is when you go wing n wing.

My boat is the Tashiba 36 20,350 displacement, 42% ballast ratio.

Edited by justanothersailor
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20 minutes ago, justanothersailor said:

Single-handed sailing on this size boat usually only carries the symmetrical to about 150-170 up to 20 kts. Higher winds is when you go wing n wing.

My boat is the Tashiba 36 20,350 displacement, 42% ballast ratio.

Is the foresail cut for downwind work or is it an all purpose 

 

poled out foresails like to be short on the leech  to get compression out of the system while keeping the leech in line 

 

high cut sail 

remember with a poled out sail the sheet angles are bad 

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1 hour ago, justanothersailor said:

I am in the Golden Globe Race

You poor sick bastard. I've also sailed my cutter rigged catamaran with genoa poled out to leeward and staysail just free flying wing on wing.

 

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Just thinking about this a bit. If you have a short staysail pole, maybe have longer spare section of pole tubing with splice already ready so that if you break the long pole, you can take the short pole, extend it to long pole length with an insert. 

Then with no short pole you sail wing and wing with outer jib/genoa + mainsail. Lots of people do that even if SA isn't quite as far forward. Reefing the main more than you normally would helps the steering in that situation.

Like this:

image.thumb.png.760a6331bf45381679c736d7aa990da9.png

And having the pole so one end is always constrained at the mast is a very good idea especially for the longer pole. You can have 2 cars on a mast track, each with a pole. Store the longer pole vertically and short one down to a deck fitting. Or fit 2 separate tracks but that seems like lots of weight up stowed up high.

The route of the last race seemed destined to produce roll overs in lots of these boats, so reducing VCG must be a priority.

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I just looked at your boat design 

 

it it has its head stay on its bow sprit 

 The  J is 17.5 ft ! Is this correct ?

a  fast downwind pole  for that J might be  22 ft long 

that is a huge pole for a 36 footer , it will be very difficult to handle 

why did you choose this design ?

 

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24 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I just looked at your boat design 

 

it it has its head stay on its bow sprit 

 The  J is 17.5 ft ! Is this correct ?

a  fast downwind pole  for that J might be  22 ft long 

that is a huge pole for a 36 footer , it will be very difficult to handle 

why did you choose this design ?

 

Mount the pole on the deck or the rail then. Make it shorter. It need not go to the mast.

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26 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I just looked at your boat design 

 

it it has its head stay on its bow sprit 

 The  J is 17.5 ft ! Is this correct ?

a  fast downwind pole  for that J might be  22 ft long 

that is a huge pole for a 36 footer , it will be very difficult to handle 

why did you choose this design ?

 

One the pole cannot be longer than the J, yes, 17.5

No penalty pole.

This design is over 1,000 miles faster than all other allowed designs. 3.5 longer waterline over the course

 

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46 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Just thinking about this a bit. If you have a short staysail pole, maybe have longer spare section of pole tubing with splice already ready so that if you break the long pole, you can take the short pole, extend it to long pole length with an insert. 

Then with no short pole you sail wing and wing with outer jib/genoa + mainsail. Lots of people do that even if SA isn't quite as far forward. Reefing the main more than you normally would helps the steering in that situation.

Like this:

image.thumb.png.760a6331bf45381679c736d7aa990da9.png

And having the pole so one end is always constrained at the mast is a very good idea especially for the longer pole. You can have 2 cars on a mast track, each with a pole. Store the longer pole vertically and short one down to a deck fitting. Or fit 2 separate tracks but that seems like lots of weight up stowed up high.

The route of the last race seemed destined to produce roll overs in lots of these boats, so reducing VCG must be a priority.

One adjustable poles

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13 minutes ago, justanothersailor said:

No adjustable poles

A  J length pole will effectively pole out your staysail ....but it won’t do you any speed favors with the Genoa 

 

will you carry two mast pole tracks 

 

how will you jibe

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5 minutes ago, justanothersailor said:

The outer head stay is that j1 or j2

J is the Genoa 

 

ive always known the staysail as j 2

 

as for as two poles . Wing and wing 

 

is this legal ?

normally  a pole is only allowed on the windward side 

 

 

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Its not an adjustable pole in normal use. You keep it short. It's a pre-jury rigged pole IF a longer pole fails.

Or just paint a carbon pole with aluminium coloured paint and add some corrector weights inside made of a soluble material. After a few rain storms it magically gets lighter.

I suppose its not NASCAR so some might frown on the second suggestion.

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11 hours ago, slug zitski said:

J is the Genoa 

 

ive always known the staysail as j 2

 

as for as two poles . Wing and wing 

 

is this legal ?

normally  a pole is only allowed on the windward side 

 

 

This is not a rating rule race. Using both poles is legal

Your only using this config running dead-downwind

Edited by justanothersailor
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Dude, trust me, you'll be gybing.

And that staysail poled out isn't going to do any good at all. Just one more thing to chafe to death. Save it for when you're reaching in 40+.

Consider two jibs sewn together at the luff hoisted on your headstay for deep two-pole reaching.

And remember, those poles will be in compression when sailing with poled out jibs. Those rings at the mast and the mast itself will take a beating like nothing you can imagine. Most spinnaker pole hardware is designed to be in tension, which is what you get from a kite. You need to talk to a rigger who understands that difference.

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

 Most spinnaker pole hardware is designed to be in tension, which is what you get from a kite. You need to talk to a rigger who understands that difference.

NO spinnaker poles are not typically in tension. Draw some pictures. Reaching the compression loads are generally very high, running they are lower, but the pole is still poling out the tack (and pulling it DOWN), not pulling it IN.

When trimming the tape should be vertical up off the end of the pole, thinking this through there may be some cases where there is tension on the pole, but my experience with end to end gybes is that the pole typically has to be pushed out to get it on or off  the ring,

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Here's another technique for down wind work.  

Main out to leeward and genoa poled out to weather as per normal.  On your inner forestay hoist a heavy weather jib aka #4 and sheet it hard to leeward.  Suddenly the boat stops rolling your brains out and tracks straight.  Squalls? Just furl the genoa till its over.  OK gybing is a bit more involved.  Eddie Shougal of Oyster Yachts after-sales team put me on to this method.  One of the many benefits is the fact that you don't have to find stowage space for extra sails and kit.

Here's a picture of us way out in the Atlantic, you can just see the #4 peeping out.

wbW8Sbr--ZLnsU-PBHsetdPdqCwt7nvDa4aLqozf

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnMB said:

NO spinnaker poles are not typically in tension. Draw some pictures. Reaching the compression loads are generally very high, running they are lower, but the pole is still poling out the tack (and pulling it DOWN), not pulling it IN.

When trimming the tape should be vertical up off the end of the pole, thinking this through there may be some cases where there is tension on the pole, but my experience with end to end gybes is that the pole typically has to be pushed out to get it on or off  the ring,

Spin pole is in compression 

 

a poled out Genoa has very poor sheet angles ...almost parallel to the pole 

max compression 

pole inboard end and  pole mast tracks are the first to fail 

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4 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Dude, trust me, you'll be gybing.

And that staysail poled out isn't going to do any good at all. Just one more thing to chafe to death. Save it for when you're reaching in 40+.

Consider two jibs sewn together at the luff hoisted on your headstay for deep two-pole reaching.

And remember, those poles will be in compression when sailing with poled out jibs. Those rings at the mast and the mast itself will take a beating like nothing you can imagine. Most spinnaker pole hardware is designed to be in tension, which is what you get from a kite. You need to talk to a rigger who understands that difference.

I've been considering the single luff / twin sail but prefer not to change any of the headsails throughout the race. The 2018 GGR winner used fixed spinnaker rings on the mast and did not suffer any damages.

All my sail decisions will be reviewed with my sailmaker & rigger. I'm not just winging it here. I've secured a team of about 20 individuals all specialist in their respective fields. I'm a retired proffessional race crew. But not a solo or round the world, yet!

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NO spinnaker poles are not typically in tension.

So when you spike the guy at the end of the pole, the kite hits you in the face? I think not. The force on all three corners of a kite are away from the boat in the general direction of down wind. Now, if you grind the living piss out of the foreguy, you might compress the pole - but that's not a load from the kite.

thinking this through there may be some cases

Keep thinking, it's highly encouraged.

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

NO spinnaker poles are not typically in tension.

So when you spike the guy at the end of the pole, the kite hits you in the face? I think not. The force on all three corners of a kite are away from the boat in the general direction of down wind. Now, if you grind the living piss out of the foreguy, you might compress the pole - but that's not a load from the kite.

thinking this through there may be some cases

Keep thinking, it's highly encouraged.

The force of the kite is in the downwind direction, but the force on the pole is the resolved force of the sum of the sheet and the kite. The pole is typically used to move the tack position outboard, consider the line of action of the sheet, this cannot put a tensile force on the pole.

When you take the pole off the kite (or the mast) does the sheet generally move inboard or outboard?

When you are acting as a human guy are you generally pushing the sheet out, or pulling it in? (and if you are pulling in why?)

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Ugh. Rings are horrible. You can't adjust pole height. You can't raise the inboard end to get the outboard end aboard and easier to grab and stow. Forespar FC-125 are pretty robust cars.

Yes, spinnaker poles are often in compression. Ever do an end for end gybe and take it off the mast? What direction does it go? Usually towards the sternish direction.

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When you are acting as a human guy are you generally pushing the sheet out, or pulling it in? (and if you are pulling in why?)

You're pulling it in and your arm is in tensions. The guy is the most heavily loaded piece of running rigging on the boat and like the pole it's in enormous tension. The only thing compressing the pole is the foreguy.

If you cut the guy, the tack of the kite (clew at the pole) will move forward. The whole damned affair is pulling the boat forward. The load on the pole is forward, not aft.

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8 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

When you are acting as a human guy are you generally pushing the sheet out, or pulling it in? (and if you are pulling in why?)

You're pulling it in and your arm is in tensions. The guy is the most heavily loaded piece of running rigging on the boat and like the pole it's in enormous tension. The only thing compressing the pole is the foreguy.

If you cut the guy, the tack of the kite (clew at the pole) will move forward. The whole damned affair is pulling the boat forward. The load on the pole is forward, not aft.

Why would you pull it in? What advantage does this give you?

In the picture below, is the pole in compression or tension?

pole force.PNG

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1 minute ago, Moonduster said:

You're resisting it's forward motion and dragging the boat along with you. Your arm is in tension. Your muscles are tensed in the same fashion as when carrying a heavy weight - to keep the load off your joints.

 I have never done that as a human guy, My ONLY purpose has been to help stop the kite collapsing, by keeping the sheet outboard. The guy did all the work of pulling the boat forward.

My arm was in compression throughout, I certainly never attempted to apply any force parallel to the guy.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Ugh. Rings are horrible. You can't adjust pole height. You can't raise the inboard end to get the outboard end aboard and easier to grab and stow. Forespar FC-125 are pretty robust cars.

Yes, spinnaker poles are often in compression. Ever do an end for end gybe and take it off the mast? What direction does it go? Usually towards the sternish direction.

Usually.....but only after the mast person gets their face out of the way of the end fitting. 

And curses out the driver, trimmer and bowman in that order.

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

When you are acting as a human guy are you generally pushing the sheet out, or pulling it in? (and if you are pulling in why?)

You're pulling it in and your arm is in tensions. The guy is the most heavily loaded piece of running rigging on the boat and like the pole it's in enormous tension. The only thing compressing the pole is the foreguy.

If you cut the guy, the tack of the kite (clew at the pole) will move forward. The whole damned affair is pulling the boat forward. The load on the pole is forward, not aft.

This is so...just not right.  

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31 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

This is so...just not right.  

(It's just engineers being engineers. They can't help it.)

Yeah, of course the kite is pulling the boat forward. It doesn't mean that the pole ain't in compression a good part of the time given it acts as a spreader transferring force from the tack/guy trying to come inboard.  Pop the pole and what happens? the tack slides to the boat. The guy handles all the tension load.

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

When you are acting as a human guy are you generally pushing the sheet out, or pulling it in? (and if you are pulling in why?)

You're pulling it in and your arm is in tensions. The guy is the most heavily loaded piece of running rigging on the boat and like the pole it's in enormous tension. The only thing compressing the pole is the foreguy.

If you cut the guy, the tack of the kite (clew at the pole) will move forward. The whole damned affair is pulling the boat forward. The load on the pole is forward, not aft.

As somebody who has spent quite a bit of time on the foredecks of smallish boats which do end to end gybes, I can tell you that if you undo the pole and it goes suddenly outward (pole in tension that is more than nominal), it probably means that the helmsman is about to lose it and that the boat will bear away whatever he does with the rudder. That's not going to be pretty.... what was leeward will instantly become windward and that's where you want to go to avoid a bath! Don't ask...

Pole is in compression 99 times out of 100, if it is in tension let the people at the rear stabilise the boat before you touch the pole! If you are a clever bowman to initiate the gybe and undo the pole you wait for the masthead to point toward windward as compression will be minimal, as the boat rolls back you accompany the kite to Leeward, the other end of the pole will naturally comes toward you and you can clip it in the ring with just a small outward push. It is then time to shout "kite gybed" less than 5 seconds after you initiated it and pat yourself on the back for a swift gybe with a full kite.

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10 hours ago, justanothersailor said:

This is not a rating rule race. Using both poles is legal

Your only using this config running dead-downwind

If you can use a pole to leeward will you also use a strut, prod , to leeward ?

...,move  the sheeting position outboard  , open up the slot , for Genoa  reaching ?

631AE1A3-68C5-4786-9514-3DB5AD655A3B.jpeg

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4 hours ago, JohnMB said:

Why would you pull it in? What advantage does this give you?

In the picture below, is the pole in compression or tension?

pole force.PNG

Compression. Regardless of the expert engineering opinions I have to agree with the experience as foredeck for thousands end4end gybes that the pole is always in compression. Even when all goes right in the cockpit and the pole is all the way back. Plus when the pole is in tension the loads are very light.

And then there are the chicken stays, and the like, used to keep the pole from breaking the mast....evidence of accommodating extreme compression.

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Is it too late to trade the quiver of poles and the boat for a setup that makes much better VMG at angles other than roll-your-guts-out DDW? 2022 is a ways out, just sayin. Okay, nevermind the interruption, sorry, carry on.

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26 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Compression. Regardless of the expert engineering opinions 

The expert engineering opinion is that the pole in in compression. I have only seen one poster suggesting otherwise, and no evidence that their opinion is based on engineering. Or is anything more that a misunderstanding of the loads.

 

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9 hours ago, JohnMB said:

Why would you pull it in? What advantage does this give you?

In the picture below, is the pole in compression or tension?

pole force.PNG

You’re missing the force vector of the kite pulling to the left, the pole acting as a spreader and in compression.

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29 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

You’re missing the force vector of the kite pulling to the left, the pole acting as a spreader and in compression.

The spinnaker is fabric. So the force vector is the tangent at the tack as drawn. No side* force can be made with fabric. Of course spinnakers sway side to side some so that vector does too but rarely enough to make a difference in pole compression.

* Normal to local plane of fabric.

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11 hours ago, Moonduster said:

When you are acting as a human guy are you generally pushing the sheet out, or pulling it in? (and if you are pulling in why?)

You're pulling it in and your arm is in tensions. The guy is the most heavily loaded piece of running rigging on the boat and like the pole it's in enormous tension. The only thing compressing the pole is the foreguy.

If you cut the guy, the tack of the kite (clew at the pole) will move forward. The whole damned affair is pulling the boat forward. The load on the pole is forward, not aft.

If there is only tension, why not use a line to do the job? Rope takes tension very well, but sucks at handling compression.

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10 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Is it too late to trade the quiver of poles and the boat for a setup that makes much better VMG at angles other than roll-your-guts-out DDW? 2022 is a ways out, just sayin. Okay, nevermind the interruption, sorry, carry on.

This is a heavy displacement design. The twin pole option is only used in winds over 20 kts. I'm solo and will switch from my symmetrical to the poles when the wind increases that I can not control or drop the symmetrical safely. Best VMG is made at 180 degrees.

Edited by justanothersailor
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On 2/19/2020 at 7:22 AM, Moonduster said:

Dude, trust me, you'll be gybing.

And that staysail poled out isn't going to do any good at all. Just one more thing to chafe to death. Save it for when you're reaching in 40+.

Consider two jibs sewn together at the luff hoisted on your headstay for deep two-pole reaching.

And remember, those poles will be in compression when sailing with poled out jibs. Those rings at the mast and the mast itself will take a beating like nothing you can imagine. Most spinnaker pole hardware is designed to be in tension, which is what you get from a kite. You need to talk to a rigger who understands that difference.

Spinnaker poles are in compression 

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7 hours ago, Raz'r said:

You’re missing the force vector of the kite pulling to the left, the pole acting as a spreader and in compression.

I was trying to draw it as simply as possible  and in a way that Moonduster could not dismiss as a biased drawing. It is immediately obvious from the drawing that the pole is in compression.

I believe with a well trimmed kite the force vector of the kite should be normal to the pole, (luff tape vertical off the pole, and the bottom tape tangent to the pole.) 

 

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