Jump to content

Need to add electrical to boat at best quality to price


Recommended Posts

Merit 22. PNW, so not always a ton of sun. I pull the boat out of the water from about October to April.

Currently there's no electronics of any kind. I want to do some overnighting and need to have at least navigation and anchor lights.

No battery yet, going to install a simple electrical panel and LED interior, cockpit, and navigation lights. There are some navigation light fixtures, but I'm not sure if all of them work. I need to redo the wiring. I also want a simple fishfinder or similar that gives me depth, temp, and gps speed would be nice.

Draw will be:

2 interior LED bulbs once in a great while.

4 cockpit LED bulbs once in while

LED Navigation lights.

Fishfinder.

It's easy for me to get lost reading electrical specs. I've been searching the forum and trying to figure it all out.

I need:

Recommendation for the best quality vs price on a battery, what type?

Should I just get a deep cycle battery from walmart and put it in a battery box? Is there a better option for what I'm doing? I'm not going to pulling a lot of juice.

Solar, quality vs price? 

Can I just swap out the bulbs in the fixtures to LEDs? 

In another thread I searched, this setup was recommended:

On 10/2/2019 at 9:01 AM, Diarmuid said:

 

Given the low cost of PV and charge controllers, my personal choice would be a slightly larger panel (that could usefully charge as well as maintain -- call it 30W, prefer mono or polycrystalline) and either a crude shunt controller or (better) an inexpensive 3-stage controller which will both bulk charge and absorb charge & float your batteries. Controller max voltage should be adjustable or have configured settings for battery type.  Here's a Renogy 10A (in case you want to add panels later) 4 stage PWM controller with readout, suitable for sealed batts, at $15 delivered. A lot more functional than a dashboard trickle panel, and you aren't relying on the shittiness of the PV to protect your delicate AGMs.

I can deal with that, under $60 for solar. Does that work for what I want?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Piginwater said:

Merit 22. PNW, so not always a ton of sun. I pull the boat out of the water from about October to April.

Currently there's no electronics of any kind. I want to do some overnighting and need to have at least navigation and anchor lights.

No battery yet, going to install a simple electrical panel and LED interior, cockpit, and navigation lights. There are some navigation light fixtures, but I'm not sure if all of them work. I need to redo the wiring. I also want a simple fishfinder or similar that gives me depth, temp, and gps speed would be nice.

Draw will be:

2 interior LED bulbs once in a great while.

4 cockpit LED bulbs once in while

LED Navigation lights.

Fishfinder.

It's easy for me to get lost reading electrical specs. I've been searching the forum and trying to figure it all out.

I need:

Recommendation for the best quality vs price on a battery, what type?

Should I just get a deep cycle battery from walmart and put it in a battery box? Is there a better option for what I'm doing? I'm not going to pulling a lot of juice.

Solar, quality vs price? 

Can I just swap out the bulbs in the fixtures to LEDs? 

In another thread I searched, this setup was recommended:

I can deal with that, under $60 for solar. Does that work for what I want?

If money's tight, go with the LED retrofits of your existing interior fixtures. However, I'm not a fan of doing that on the nav lights. You can get away with it for a while but nav lights live a hard life outdoors and lights made for incandescent bulbs aren't well sealed to accommodate bulb changes and heat dissipation. If you go the LED retrofit route with them, count on replacing them in a few years. 

Your fishfinder will probably be your biggest draw so if you haven't bought one yet, keep an eye on the specs of the models you're considering to see which ones are the most power-efficient.

I'm a big believer that you can't have too much solar and saving money here is a false economy. Whatever you put into your solar system will be partly paid back by what you save on the battery side. A while back SA-er Roleur mentioned that he had some excess inventory of the excellent SunPower flexible 50W and 100W panels. You might want to check with him. I also agree with Diarmuid's recommendation to get a solar charge controller. It'll prevent you from overcharging your battery. 

Once you've figured out your power budget for a worst-case outing (no sun, fishing all day, all lights burning), then you can figure out what battery you need. If you think you can get away with a group 24 or 27 lead acid battery, I would suggest that you get a battery box that can accommodate at least a Group 31 size. That way, if your power needs go up and you need to go up a size or to a Firefly AGM (which doesn't come in smaller sizes), you'll be ready.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So away from the dock on Friday night, out on Saturday morning, and return Sunday?

Step 1. decide how many hours each item will be on for the duration that you are relying on battery power. Multiply amp draw of each item x hours to give you amp.hours. Add up all the amp.hours.

Step 2. Pick a lead acid deep cycle battery that has 2x the amp.hours you calculated in step 1. This is because you should not discharge a lead acid battery more than 50% for long life.

Step 3. Get a small solar panel if budget allows. 30-50 W? Allows you to charge a phone, run small stereo etc if your power needs grow.

Dedicated LED nav lights are a good idea.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, IStream said:

If money's tight, go with the LED retrofits of your existing interior fixtures. However, I'm not a fan of doing that on the nav lights. You can get away with it for a while but nav lights live a hard life outdoors and lights made for incandescent bulbs aren't well sealed to accommodate bulb changes and heat dissipation. If you go the LED retrofit route with them, count on replacing them in a few years. 

Your fishfinder will probably be your biggest draw so if you haven't bought one yet, keep an eye on the specs of the models you're considering to see which ones are the most power-efficient.

I'm a big believer that you can't have too much solar and saving money here is a false economy. Whatever you put into your solar system will be partly paid back by what you save on the battery side. A while back SA-er Roleur mentioned that he had some excess inventory of the excellent SunPower flexible 50W and 100W panels. You might want to check with him. I also agree with Diarmuid's recommendation to get a solar charge controller. It'll prevent you from overcharging your battery. 

Once you've figured out your power budget for a worst-case outing (no sun, fishing all day, all lights burning), then you can figure out what battery you need. If you think you can get away with a group 24 or 27 lead acid battery, I would suggest that you get a battery box that can accommodate at least a Group 31 size. That way, if your power needs go up and you need to go up a size or to a Firefly AGM (which doesn't come in smaller sizes), you'll be ready.

Thanks for the info on the LEDs in nav lights. I didn't know that.

For my fishfinder I'm thinking of the Garmin Striker 4. $100ish, draws .23 amps.

https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Striker-Transducer-Fishfinder-Traditional/dp/B017NI17HQ

I PMed Roleur, thanks for the info.

7 hours ago, Zonker said:

So away from the dock on Friday night, out on Saturday morning, and return Sunday?

Step 1. decide how many hours each item will be on for the duration that you are relying on battery power. Multiply amp draw of each item x hours to give you amp.hours. Add up all the amp.hours.

Step 2. Pick a lead acid deep cycle battery that has 2x the amp.hours you calculated in step 1. This is because you should not discharge a lead acid battery more than 50% for long life.

Step 3. Get a small solar panel if budget allows. 30-50 W? Allows you to charge a phone, run small stereo etc if your power needs grow.

Dedicated LED nav lights are a good idea.

After figuring out all my draw, I'm at 23 amps every 24 hours. 

I think a 100AH group 27 should be fine. If I'm understanding that right, it would give me 72 days (Edit. Hours. Hours. Not days. That's quite the battery if it's 72 days.) of use with no charger at all, and still have 25%. I'm thinking that between a solar charger and my outboard, I should be good to go.

 

Edited by Piginwater
Typo
Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you thinking standard lead-acid battery (e.g. not sealed)?

How are you going to recharge your battery after each trip?

What voltage and current does your outboard provide, is it regulated? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes a small battery charger would be good to get. I'm not sure how much US insurance companies care about these things but I've always used 6-10 Amp cheap auto chargers plugged into an extension cord. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, b393capt said:

Are you thinking standard lead-acid battery (e.g. not sealed)?

How are you going to recharge your battery after each trip?

What voltage and current does your outboard provide, is it regulated? 

I'm thinking this. Although I haven't done any research on it yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Weize-Battery-System-Camping-Trolling/dp/B07SW353M8

I had thought my Tohatsu alternator was regulated, but after your comment I looked, and apparently it's not. It only puts out 5 amps anyway, and in order to do that I'd have to be running at full throttle, which I never do. I'm normally running it at about 3000 RPM.

As to keeping it on a 110V trickle charger, shouldn't the solar charger be able to keep up with charging since I won't be using it in the winter months?

I am in the Portland area, but I don't go sailing more than once or twice a week, and we do get fairly clear days during the late spring, summer, and early fall months.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Piginwater said:

 

I'm thinking this. Although I haven't done any research on it yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Weize-Battery-System-Camping-Trolling/dp/B07SW353M8

I had thought my Tohatsu alternator was regulated, but after your comment I looked, and apparently it's not. It only puts out 5 amps anyway, and in order to do that I'd have to be running at full throttle, which I never do. I'm normally running it at about 3000 RPM.

As to keeping it on a 110V trickle charger, shouldn't the solar charger be able to keep up with charging since I won't be using it in the winter months?

I am in the Portland area, but I don't go sailing more than once or twice a week, and we do get fairly clear days during the late spring, summer, and early fall months.

Piginwater

If you are running a smaller (< 9.9 HP) Tohatsu, the generator/alternator is not regulated, and it's pretty weak sauce for charging the battery. It can help a bit, but it's really a trickle charger. Since 2007, I have been using a 2007 vintage Tohatsu 6 HP, along with 50w of solar on my boat. Group 27 (75ah) LA deep cycle.  Last spring I finally tank tested the alternator using a clamp ammeter and a voltmeter, and using a TinyTach to display the rpms. Here's what I saw:

Battery showed 12.85 volts before the test.
Startup and idle at 2,000 RPM = 13.1 to 13.7 volts, and .3-.4 amps.
3,000 RPMS = 14.0 volts and .8 amps.
3,200 RPMs = .83 amps.
Higher RPMs produced voltage readings > 15 volts, but almost 0 amps. 

As another data point, motoring in the North Channel last summer with a fully charged battery, I saw .46 amps at 2,600 rpms. 

In sum, I have not seen it produce more than .9 amps.  I still keep it hooked up, just in case. But solar provides my electrons.

Snubs

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, snubber said:

Piginwater

If you are running a smaller (< 9.9 HP) Tohatsu, the generator/alternator is not regulated, and it's pretty weak sauce for charging the battery. It can help a bit, but it's really a trickle charger. Since 2007, I have been using a 2007 vintage Tohatsu 6 HP, along with 50w of solar on my boat. Group 27 (75ah) LA deep cycle.  Last spring I finally tank tested the alternator using a clamp ammeter and a voltmeter, and using a TinyTach to display the rpms. Here's what I saw:

Battery showed 12.85 volts before the test.
Startup and idle at 2,000 RPM = 13.1 to 13.7 volts, and .3-.4 amps.
3,000 RPMS = 14.0 volts and .8 amps.
3,200 RPMs = .83 amps.
Higher RPMs produced voltage readings > 15 volts, but almost 0 amps. 

As another data point, motoring in the North Channel last summer with a fully charged battery, I saw .46 amps at 2,600 rpms. 

In sum, I have not seen it produce more than .9 amps.  I still keep it hooked up, just in case. But solar provides my electrons.

Snubs

 

Thanks a lot for that hard data Snubs. I'd read some rumors about it not putting out much juice, but never seen any actual tested figures.

 I don't think I'll even bother wiring up the alternator if it doesn't even put out an amp. I'll just rely on solar.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When we were looking for batteries (in our case, 4 golf cart batteries) the best price by far we found was at Sam's Club. For four batteries it even made sense to buy a membership. Their core charge (what you pay if you are not handing in an old battery) was also the lowest, $5 rather than $15 or $20 which are common amounts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Even 2 x GC would be overkill for what he needs. And then you need 2 battery boxes, extra cables etc.

Yes if you are getting a solar panel then no need for a 110v charger - unless you return to the dock with a flat battery and want to take it out again in 2 days, but you get 2 days of rain or heavy clouds. Not that would happen in Portland. If you get a 50 watt panel you'll get about 18 a.hours on a sunny day but just a few a.hrs if really cloudy.

Do get a solar regulator for the panel to avoid overcharging.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I second the solar panel recommendation. A 50w flexible panel is very easy to deal with, just throw it flat in the cockpit when you leave the boat. If you're out sailing for a few days or more in a row, bungee it on the cabin top on the sunny side. In my previous boat a 50w panel w/ an old, fairly worn out group 24 (ie car sized) battery had no problem keeping up with running the GPS + knotmeter + depth sounder 10 hours/day, plus cabin lights (LED), and cell phone charging. On summer cruises it would handle this indefinitely - weeks at a time. In the winter the boat saw less extended use, so the panel still had plenty of time to keep everything topped up. Way easier than messing around with a charger.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Good advice upthread

Evaluate the wiring you have, any fuse/breaker/switch panels, do not replace it unless it is shot, particularly any wiring that has been installed between panels e.g. nav light circuits.  They are a lot of work to rerun and why do it.

The self-contained nav lights (with their own batteries) have become very good.  For the sort of occasional use you describe, and with no salvageable electrical system on board, this may be your most practical and economical choice.  You can hoist an anchor light on a halyard.  For a fishfinder you can use the Vexilar SP300 which has its own battery and has a bluetooth connection to your smartphone.  I have one and use it.

I have just spent most of two days and around $250 replacing battery wiring and fuse blocks on my 26' boat and this is with leaving most of the existing wiring intact, and using the cheap LED conversions for the dome lights.  I am leaving my nav lights incandescent for now, problem for another year.  Reusing batteries, no solar.  The point being these are remarkably expensive and time consuming projects, even for me, and I have all the tools and have done it before.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/22/2020 at 5:24 AM, Piginwater said:

 

I'm thinking this. Although I haven't done any research on it yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Weize-Battery-System-Camping-Trolling/dp/B07SW353M8

I had thought my Tohatsu alternator was regulated, but after your comment I looked, and apparently it's not. It only puts out 5 amps anyway, and in order to do that I'd have to be running at full throttle, which I never do. I'm normally running it at about 3000 RPM.

As to keeping it on a 110V trickle charger, shouldn't the solar charger be able to keep up with charging since I won't be using it in the winter months?

I am in the Portland area, but I don't go sailing more than once or twice a week, and we do get fairly clear days during the late spring, summer, and early fall months.

This thread is relevant to my interests, as I last year totally rebuilt the electrical system on my 26 footer, with new cables and breakers and a bus bars in a water tight box with an external water tight switch panel and voltmeter.

With regards to rebuilding it yourself, I found it a great help to read a book about 12v marine electrics and then consulting more knowledgeable people about my questions about electrics, components and electrical diagrams etc., for quality control.

I would advise to replace all cables with tinned marine copper cables.

 

On 3/22/2020 at 7:29 PM, snubber said:

Piginwater

If you are running a smaller (< 9.9 HP) Tohatsu, the generator/alternator is not regulated, and it's pretty weak sauce for charging the battery. It can help a bit, but it's really a trickle charger. Since 2007, I have been using a 2007 vintage Tohatsu 6 HP, along with 50w of solar on my boat. Group 27 (75ah) LA deep cycle.  Last spring I finally tank tested the alternator using a clamp ammeter and a voltmeter, and using a TinyTach to display the rpms. Here's what I saw:

Battery showed 12.85 volts before the test.
Startup and idle at 2,000 RPM = 13.1 to 13.7 volts, and .3-.4 amps.
3,000 RPMS = 14.0 volts and .8 amps.
3,200 RPMs = .83 amps.
Higher RPMs produced voltage readings > 15 volts, but almost 0 amps. 

As another data point, motoring in the North Channel last summer with a fully charged battery, I saw .46 amps at 2,600 rpms. 

In sum, I have not seen it produce more than .9 amps.  I still keep it hooked up, just in case. But solar provides my electrons.

Snubs

 

Do you guys have an external tachometer, for measuring RPM's?

My outboard is a Mercury 5hp is a long shaft "sailpower" with a propeller developing more thrust. It also has a built in 4 amp in generator, which I haven't connected yet. Are you guys saying, that it is practically worthless?

I also installed a new 7A 230V (EU) Victron charger, because I go cruising for a couple of weeks in it. Being in port, it's nice to be able charge the battery fully. Currently,

I only have a small 60 ah battery, which I think is shot. So thank you for bringing the term "battery groups" to my attention, it will help me find the biggest possible capacity battery for my current, which I think is group 24, battery box. LiFePo4 is out, being too expensive. Not needing the high output of start batteries, what gives the best bang for the buck, in terms of useable amp hours per buck?

 

On 3/23/2020 at 1:38 AM, andykane said:

I second the solar panel recommendation. A 50w flexible panel is very easy to deal with, just throw it flat in the cockpit when you leave the boat. If you're out sailing for a few days or more in a row, bungee it on the cabin top on the sunny side. In my previous boat a 50w panel w/ an old, fairly worn out group 24 (ie car sized) battery had no problem keeping up with running the GPS + knotmeter + depth sounder 10 hours/day, plus cabin lights (LED), and cell phone charging. On summer cruises it would handle this indefinitely - weeks at a time. In the winter the boat saw less extended use, so the panel still had plenty of time to keep everything topped up. Way easier than messing around with a charger.

Good to hear. Earlier this week I ordered a MPPT and this https://www.sunbeamsystem.com/en/new-tough-with-double-uv-protection/ 36W panel, which I will hook up. I expect it will keep my batteries charged when I'm not onboard as I'm on the northern hemisphere with my boat berthed with the stern south. You didn't have a car cooler or similar onboard?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

Do you guys have an external tachometer, for measuring RPM's?

My outboard is a Mercury 5hp is a long shaft "sailpower" with a propeller developing more thrust. It also has a built in 4 amp in generator, which I haven't connected yet. Are you guys saying, that it is practically worthless?

 

Misbehavin'

I have a TinyTach (www.tinytach.com) on my Tohatsu outboard. LCD display shows engine hours when the engine is off, and RPMs when it is running. It is a sealed unit and the battery is not serviceable, but mine has lasted for 12 years of freezing winters and Texas hot, and the battery is still good. I am frankly impressed it has lasted this long. Sometimes the starter cord/handle snaps out of my hand and probably whacks the tach, but it shows no ill effect. I have the old "non-marine" version, but it's mounted outside the engine case and gets rain. Never a problem. There is now a marine version. 

Your Mercury sounds like the re-badge of my Tohatsu. If so, the "not-alernator/not-generator" is not 4 amps. Less than one amp. Still helpful. A clamp ammeter will tell the tale. 

Snubs

Tiny_tach_resize.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, I have a 27' H-Boat with 2 LED cabin lights and incandescent running light. I had a 9 Ah battery, but swapped it for a Jackery 240 Ah lithium ion power station ($200+). So far so good. It's easy to disconnect and take home to charge. I feel like I'm in a Hollywood penthouse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bull City said:

FWIW, I have a 27' H-Boat with 2 LED cabin lights and incandescent running light. I had a 9 Ah battery, but swapped it for a Jackery 240 Ah lithium ion power station ($200+). So far so good. It's easy to disconnect and take home to charge. I feel like I'm in a Hollywood penthouse.

Piqued my interest so I checked out your Jackery 240.....it’s not 240 amp hours, it’s 240 watt hours. Had it been amp hours I would own one before you could say Cock Robin.....

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Orion Jim said:

Piqued my interest so I checked out your Jackery 240.....it’s not 240 amp hours, it’s 240 watt hours. Had it been amp hours I would own one before you could say Cock Robin.....

Jim, you're right. I often get my electrical terms mixed up. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, snubber said:

Misbehavin'

I have a TinyTach (www.tinytach.com) on my Tohatsu outboard. LCD display shows engine hours when the engine is off, and RPMs when it is running. It is a sealed unit and the battery is not serviceable, but mine has lasted for 12 years of freezing winters and Texas hot, and the battery is still good. I am frankly impressed it has lasted this long. Sometimes the starter cord/handle snaps out of my hand and probably whacks the tach, but it shows no ill effect. I have the old "non-marine" version, but it's mounted outside the engine case and gets rain. Never a problem. There is now a marine version. 

Your Mercury sounds like the re-badge of my Tohatsu. If so, the "not-alernator/not-generator" is not 4 amps. Less than one amp. Still helpful. A clamp ammeter will tell the tale. 

Snubs

Tiny_tach_resize.jpg

Thanks, I've never heard of that and need it in my life now. I believe it's exactly the same engine, bar the stickers. It looks exactly the same too. All in all, it's not a bad engine, though I hate outboards.

Mine seems to have a hard time starting, after having been out for a longer sail tilted in the highest position (of course with the handle downwards, per the manual). Are you experiencing the same thing?

 

Bull, if you had the techology for a 240 ah Li-ion battery for 200 USD, you would be a rich man!
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

Thanks, I've never heard of that and need it in my life now. I believe it's exactly the same engine, bar the stickers. It looks exactly the same too. All in all, it's not a bad engine, though I hate outboards.

Mine seems to have a hard time starting, after having been out for a longer sail tilted in the highest position (of course with the handle downwards, per the manual). Are you experiencing the same thing?

 

Bull, if you had the techology for a 240 ah Li-ion battery for 200 USD, you would be a rich man!

Misbehavin'

Yes, my Tohatsu is always cold blooded starting. Never starts on the first pull, hot or cold, tilted or not. It favors a little (or a lot) of choke, sometimes even when it's a bit warm and I wouldn't normally use the choke. I'll pull the cord a few times, then give it a little choke (or sometimes open the throttle a bit). But I have never flooded the carb or fouled a plug, so it's just the rotator-cuff workout and waiting for it to start. It has always been like that since new. The carb is prone to clogging with tiny crud, even if you have a fuel filter. Overall it's been an alright engine; 12 years later (about 302 hours), it doesn't leak or use oil and it sips gas. 

Snubs

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, snubber said:

Misbehavin'

Yes, my Tohatsu is always cold blooded starting. Never starts on the first pull, hot or cold, tilted or not. It favors a little (or a lot) of choke, sometimes even when it's a bit warm and I wouldn't normally use the choke. I'll pull the cord a few times, then give it a little choke (or sometimes open the throttle a bit). But I have never flooded the carb or fouled a plug, so it's just the rotator-cuff workout and waiting for it to start. It has always been like that since new. The carb is prone to clogging with tiny crud, even if you have a fuel filter. Overall it's been an alright engine; 12 years later (about 302 hours), it doesn't leak or use oil and it sips gas. 

Snubs

Thanks for confirming my experience, Snubs. That choker is like a womans clitoris, it's a lottery from time to time, finding the correct way to get it started. I find mine impossible to start (+10 pulls or wait for 5 minutes), when it has been tilted in the upper (almost totally horizontal) position, are yours the same way too when tilting it this high?

Though I must say I'm very satisfied when I have got it started, as it runs very smoothy og quietly when it is warm, compared to my old Tohatsu 2-stroke.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

Thanks for confirming my experience, Snubs. That choker is like a womans clitoris, it's a lottery from time to time, finding the correct way to get it started. I find mine impossible to start (+10 pulls or wait for 5 minutes), when it has been tilted in the upper (almost totally horizontal) position, are yours the same way too when tilting it this high?

Though I must say I'm very satisfied when I have got it started, as it runs very smoothy og quietly when it is warm, compared to my old Tohatsu 2-stroke.

Tilting doesn't matter for mine. It needs the special, clitorial touch whether it's been down completely, up part-way, or totally up. Perhaps fuel is siphoning out of the fuel bowl when it's fully tilted? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, snubber said:

Tilting doesn't matter for mine. It needs the special, clitorial touch whether it's been down completely, up part-way, or totally up. Perhaps fuel is siphoning out of the fuel bowl when it's fully tilted? 

I think you're right, how annoying.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2020 at 11:39 AM, Misbehavin' said:

Bull, if you had the techology for a 240 ah Li-ion battery for 200 USD, you would be a rich man!

I don't, and I'm not.:(

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...