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International 110 - new build kits - any interest?


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I realize that 110s are not dinghies but since this thread would get lost in Sailing Anarchy, I figured that I'd start here.  A guy in San Diego is going to build a new home built 110 and is tracing out the hull frames on vellum right now.  He also put new keel CAD drawings together and is going to have new keels poured in that area. Is there anybody here who may have interest in building a 110 from scratch?  We figure that it would look something like this:

  • New keel from San Diego foundry - or repurpose an old one that needs a home (we know of some)
  • CNC files for the frames - source your own wood and a shop to cut them (or the class might be able to find one shop who is willing to put frame kits together)
  • New Superspar spar kit
  • Possible sourced trailers from a builder, also in California

I know that there are a few 110ers on here like @BobBill maybe others.  

I'm in. I'm going to make this a project for myself and my two boys. I have a few projects ahead of it so I'm planning to do this project starting in the Winter 21/22 with hull assembly in the Spring of 2022.  I'm buying one of the new keels from San Diego.  Maybe two if my brother wants one as well.

Picture is of keel plug in San Diego

 

IMG_8747.JPG

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There was all sorts of variation in 110 keels.  Like different depths and so forth.  Probably because there were multiple patterns and lack of real one design control. In old yearbooks there is discussion of people cutting inches off their keels.

Before going to all the effort, it would be smart to figure out what a “good” 110 is shaped like relative to the nominal drawings.

I think there may be possibilities to build a really nice 110 if you did things differently than the original Lawley-Haggerty specification. For example the ribs are built up from spruce with plywood gussets.  These could be done more efficiently out of light plywood under the aft and forward deck. I would be tempted to build a half height sub deck that made the bottom half of the bow and stern into buoyancy tanks, but maintained the ability to run things under the decks without having to go to all sorts of tricky watertight joints.

The hardest parts to build are the radiused chines and gunwales. I think they had some pretty big shapers in the Lawley yard. You certainly aren’t going to find, much less use a 2” radius round over bit in a hand held router.  Shaping  these pieces by hand would be a right pain in the ass. CNC machines can make this bit much easier.

Occume plywood is way better than fir.

SHC

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31 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

There was all sorts of variation in 110 keels.  Like different depths and so forth.  Probably because there were multiple patterns and lack of real one design control. In old yearbooks there is discussion of people cutting inches off their keels.

Before going to all the effort, it would be smart to figure out what a “good” 110 is shaped like relative to the nominal drawings.

I think there may be possibilities to build a really nice 110 if you did things differently than the original Lawley-Haggerty specification. For example the ribs are built up from spruce with plywood gussets.  These could be done more efficiently out of light plywood under the aft and forward deck. I would be tempted to build a half height sub deck that made the bottom half of the bow and stern into buoyancy tanks, but maintained the ability to run things under the decks without having to go to all sorts of tricky watertight joints.

The hardest parts to build are the radiused chines and gunwales. I think they had some pretty big shapers in the Lawley yard. You certainly aren’t going to find, much less use a 2” radius round over bit in a hand held router.  Shaping  these pieces by hand would be a right pain in the ass. CNC machines can make this bit much easier.

Occume plywood is way better than fir.

SHC

Steve, 

I completely agree about the keel.  Jim Gretzky did that for the 210 and it made a world of difference though all new Gretzky 210s were just that much faster as a result. I would have loved to see the same thing and maybe I can circle back before it's too late and do the same thing.  Jim has already seen the thread about keels and essentially said the same as you, that picking one shape isn't necessarily the best thing for the class.  I'll go ask around about this.

That's an interesting approach on the sub decks.  I want to build one as practice for wooden boat building so that I can get into more complex projects, as you and I have discussed.  I figured my boys could help me build one and it would be good practice for all of us.  

Ross Weene has been asked about creating the CNC files for the frames.  I'll ask him about the chines because as you pointed out, I was wondering how to do that part and I hadn't come up with any solutions yet but it's early days.  I'm two years out from getting to this I believe with my pile of projects that need to be wrapped up first and it allows my boys to get a little older.

Definitely on the Occume. I was going to reach out to Boulter about some pieces scarfed to 24' so I didn't have joints to contend with in the sides or bottom.

Geoff

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Shipping 24’ sheet goods is not practical.

if you go all the way with the CNC, the scarf joints can be cut when everything else is.  

I find myself drawn back to the 110, which was a boat I sailed as a kid, or more correctly crewed for my brother.  Our boat was #560 and was not one of the fast ones, even in Marion, which was a generation behind Marblehead and Narragansett Bay.  I would like to see a vision completed, but don’t think I want to spend the necessary hours to build myself a boat.

SHC

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

Shipping 24’ sheet goods is not practical.

if you go all the way with the CNC, the scarf joints can be cut when everything else is.  

I find myself drawn back to the 110, which was a boat I sailed as a kid, or more correctly crewed for my brother.  Our boat was #560 and was not one of the fast ones, even in Marion, which was a generation behind Marblehead and Narragansett Bay.  I would like to see a vision completed, but don’t think I want to spend the necessary hours to build myself a boat.

SHC

Thanks Steve...good tips as usual from you.  

I'm working with Milly from Inverness, Ross you know, Bill in San Diego and others soon to develop this vision.  A modern approach (meaning CNC cut frames) kits available, everything sourced so that buyers don't have to think for themselves, they just have to assemble to the directions and go sailing.  This is the hope.  I want to build #759 without fasteners, as much as possible, just some keel bolts and fasteners for the hardware. 

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Steve, the frames in every 110 I’ve ever sailed have been white oak.  I agree with the plywood ring frames, and this is in fact the method employed by Guck on a few restorations.  Ross and I have worked up kit drawings over the years, and there’s definitely a lot of food for thought as far as improving things.   Keel depths only became an issue when folks started to retrofit Peck keels to their wood boats, which gave them deeper keels.  These were deemed illegal, and a bunch of people subsequently quit the class because they had made their boats illegal.  Thankfully the class finally moved on from that fiasco.  The original patterns for the keel  are no doubt primitive and require a lot of bog and sweat to fair into a proper foil, so it would definitely be worth it to fabricate a good pattern.  The real question is whether or not there are actually folks around that will take this on besides WCB.  

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6 hours ago, eliboat said:

Steve, the frames in every 110 I’ve ever sailed have been white oak.  I agree with the plywood ring frames, and this is in fact the method employed by Guck on a few restorations.  Ross and I have worked up kit drawings over the years, and there’s definitely a lot of food for thought as far as improving things.   Keel depths only became an issue when folks started to retrofit Peck keels to their wood boats, which gave them deeper keels.  These were deemed illegal, and a bunch of people subsequently quit the class because they had made their boats illegal.  Thankfully the class finally moved on from that fiasco.  The original patterns for the keel  are no doubt primitive and require a lot of bog and sweat to fair into a proper foil, so it would definitely be worth it to fabricate a good pattern.  The real question is whether or not there are actually folks around that will take this on besides WCB.  

That is the million dollar question, if there are other crazies out there.  There's that guy, Bill, in San Diego who is building woodie #756.  I'll commit to one in 2022 after clearing the schedule of other boat projects.  Who else though...  I think a new keel that we're working on could help.  Not to mention sourcing everything for a builder so they didn't have to worry about rehabbing an old keel...etc.

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5 hours ago, eliboat said:

Also, my dream has always been to plank the topsides with cedar or spruce and bright finish a boat.  That would be a sexy boat.  

Oh I like this idea...

 

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Would it be permitted to recess the bottom in the way of the keel flange such that the bottom of the flange was flush with the bottom.  My guess is that this would be about 3/4” deep.  

This would eliminate “putty” to fair the flange into the bottom. And by the way, there is no definition of how much area around the keel can be part of that fairing.

It wouldn’t be hard to do if you started out intending to do it.

SHC

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

Would it be permitted to recess the bottom in the way of the keel flange such that the bottom of the flange was flush with the bottom.  My guess is that this would be about 3/4” deep.  

This would eliminate “putty” to fair the flange into the bottom. And by the way, there is no definition of how much area around the keel can be part of that fairing.

It wouldn’t be hard to do if you started out intending to do it.

SHC

Eli is probably better versed in this than me but there's a measurement from the bottom the hull to the bottom of the keel and/or chine to bottom of keel and that could be effected by burying the keel in the bottom. However, I don't think that it would cause too much angst otherwise because the flange has been allowed to be faired way out so it affectively disappears.

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There is a generous tolerance ( 1 1/2”) between maximum and minimum distance from bottom of keel to chines and centerline. So as long as your fin was the right length, you should be able to pull it off.

Otherwise it would be tempting to design the fairing into the hull shape....

SHC

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1 minute ago, Steve Clark said:

There is a generous tolerance ( 1 1/2”) between maximum and minimum distance from bottom of keel to chines and centerline. So as long as your fin was the right length, you should be able to pull it off.

Otherwise it would be tempting to design the fairing into the hull shape....

SHC

I'm taking notes! 

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3 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

There is a generous tolerance ( 1 1/2”) between maximum and minimum distance from bottom of keel to chines and centerline. So as long as your fin was the right length, you should be able to pull it off.

Otherwise it would be tempting to design the fairing into the hull shape....

SHC

I can see the notch in the frames to allow the recess for the keel. I'm assuming you'd notch it even further for the recessed plywood box. Then fit small filler pieces of plywood around the sides of that recess, epoxied into place.  Correct?

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 Shipping box doubles as building jig with laser printed stations and build cradle inside. To save costs shipping box is possibly Okoume, accepting possible cosmetic blemishing. Box becomes frames and bits, maybe even hull panels.

 A carefully tooled chine (and keel rebate socket/tray) mold from plug or donor could yield a segmented, flanged glass chine, maybe as many as 4 pieces. Bonded to rebated frames. 4-6 17 oz biax tapes to build chines.

  Once fully cured, laminate uninterrupted uni carbon or s glass stem to stern on inside of glass bits. The time saved carving wood chines might offset carbon cost although s glass would expand and contract at a more friendly rate. Laminate bottom chines first, let it cure, roll jig over, laminate deck chines.

 Hull panel rivet to chine flange. Cleco dry fit,  rivet/epoxy bond.

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14 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

There is a generous tolerance ( 1 1/2”) between maximum and minimum distance from bottom of keel to chines and centerline. So as long as your fin was the right length, you should be able to pull it off.

Otherwise it would be tempting to design the fairing into the hull shape....

SHC

This is in fact how the Westease boys are built with the keel stump faired into the hull.  

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1 hour ago, eliboat said:

This is in fact how the Westease boys are built with the keel stump faired into the hull.  

Very nice! I've added it to my wish list for my wood 110 along with your cedar/spruce idea. ;) 

 

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7 hours ago, PeterRoss said:

 Shipping box doubles as building jig with laser printed stations and build cradle inside. To save costs shipping box is possibly Okoume, accepting possible cosmetic blemishing. Box becomes frames and bits, maybe even hull panels.

 A carefully tooled chine (and keel rebate socket/tray) mold from plug or donor could yield a segmented, flanged glass chine, maybe as many as 4 pieces. Bonded to rebated frames. 4-6 17 oz biax tapes to build chines.

  Once fully cured, laminate uninterrupted uni carbon or s glass stem to stern on inside of glass bits. The time saved carving wood chines might offset carbon cost although s glass would expand and contract at a more friendly rate. Laminate bottom chines first, let it cure, roll jig over, laminate deck chines.

 Hull panel rivet to chine flange. Cleco dry fit,  rivet/epoxy bond.

You've got some interesting ideas in here.  Especially the delivery crate being repurposed as parts of the boat.  I could see side panels being traced for bulkhead walls for example.

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 I think the shipping goal is a 2 shipping pallet size which means multiple hull panel scarfs. Since CNC is in your plans, you could score all the bits and pieces, maybe half way through plywood? Really easy jigsaw work from there followed by easy edge cleanup.

 Heavily suggest Chesapeake Light Craft style puzzle joints.

 A stiff skeletal frame won't care how many joints the hull panels have once bonded and skinned in cloth.

 

 Couple chine mold thoughts. PVC tubing can be used to create chines.

 Sailboard spars could be used for the plug or maybe actually get used as chines. I don't remember if chines are constant radius, might eliminate tapered spars for chine use.

 I could imagine a spar or constant radius tube bonded just shy of the tangent of hull panels creating a skin reduction for unis. Hull panels  with rebates at chines for unis bonded to frames and bitter end stems. Use a piece of scrap the rebated hull panel thickness to gauge tube tangent height. Laminate several unis of choice to create uninterrupted chines fore and aft. Tape inside between frames with 17 oz biax tape. Bulk is ok, they wont come close to oak weight. If they do stiffness and longevity will be through the roof in comparison (100% tossing thoughts without facts or experience.)

 

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1 hour ago, PeterRoss said:

 I think the shipping goal is a 2 shipping pallet size which means multiple hull panel scarfs. Since CNC is in your plans, you could score all the bits and pieces, maybe half way through plywood? Really easy jigsaw work from there followed by easy edge cleanup.

 Heavily suggest Chesapeake Light Craft style puzzle joints.

 A stiff skeletal frame won't care how many joints the hull panels have once bonded and skinned in cloth.

 

 Couple chine mold thoughts. PVC tubing can be used to create chines.

 Sailboard spars could be used for the plug or maybe actually get used as chines. I don't remember if chines are constant radius, might eliminate tapered spars for chine use.

 I could imagine a spar or constant radius tube bonded just shy of the tangent of hull panels creating a skin reduction for unis. Hull panels  with rebates at chines for unis bonded to frames and bitter end stems. Use a piece of scrap the rebated hull panel thickness to gauge tube tangent height. Laminate several unis of choice to create uninterrupted chines fore and aft. Tape inside between frames with 17 oz biax tape. Bulk is ok, they wont come close to oak weight. If they do stiffness and longevity will be through the roof in comparison (100% tossing thoughts without facts or experience.)

 

Eli and his friend Ross, both avid 110ers, had a solution for the chines they thought.  It would be ideal to keep this particular kit all wood and maybe the secret would be to supply the chines pre cut for the quarter round and notches for the plywood as well as a scarf pre-cut so that they can be shipped at half length instead of full length for the boat.  I'm hoping that it's a fun project to build these kits for future customers and that there are takers.  Ross and others are looking over the new keel shape that's happening in San Diego.

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Eli has the IC I built on a jig that had PVC pipes for the chines and deck edges.  It was a bigger PITA than I expected in the event.

It may be that you have to build the chines first, using a piece of pipe and a set of forms to bend it to the correct curve.  Forget trying to build something square and bend into shape. That does not work. I have tried several times and several ways.

We had no luck selling the Machete  kits. But I have been able to sell the DXF files and a license to build one boat.  There are enough 3 axis cutters out there to make shipping plywood around unnecessary.

SHC

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For the chines,  would a strip-plank method work, similar to what is used for cedar canoes?    Some intermediate frames to control the radius could be added in between the frames needed for the bottom and top side stations.

 

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1 hour ago, kprice said:

For the chines,  would a strip-plank method work, similar to what is used for cedar canoes?    Some intermediate frames to control the radius could be added in between the frames needed for the bottom and top side stations.

 

I think that the biggest issue is that the chines are structural. It's not a matter of turning the radius of the chines and sheer, it's a matter of actually forming them and tying all of the frames together. The frames have been various woods, cut into four sides of "square" but instead of a round corner to each frame, they angled to allow for the chine. In the picture attached, you can see the chine in each corner and the frame has a little gusset in each corner to bond the frames.

Screen Shot 2020-04-05 at 12.45.55 PM.png

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WCB, Interesting thread with good info and suggestions. Maybe the real question is: Do you want to spend a great deal of time, effort and money building/rebuilding or do you just want to go sailing with your boys? Do THEY want to work on an old boat/build a new one or just go sailing? I'd rather go sailing. Just sayin'

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5 hours ago, xonk1 said:

WCB, Interesting thread with good info and suggestions. Maybe the real question is: Do you want to spend a great deal of time, effort and money building/rebuilding or do you just want to go sailing with your boys? Do THEY want to work on an old boat/build a new one or just go sailing? I'd rather go sailing. Just sayin'

I manage with others a fleet of over sixty sailboats with Park City Sailing.  Sailing during any build time will not be a problem.  I also own various sailboats in working condition.  

Do I want to have a fun projects to spend time with my boys that they can look at as they grow and remember spending time with their dad.  Damn right.

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15 hours ago, xonk1 said:

WCB, Interesting thread with good info and suggestions. Maybe the real question is: Do you want to spend a great deal of time, effort and money building/rebuilding or do you just want to go sailing with your boys? Do THEY want to work on an old boat/build a new one or just go sailing? I'd rather go sailing. Just sayin'

I built all kinds of Stuff with my grandfather and messed about in boats with him and some of my other relatives in northern Ontario.  All that time in the shop covered in wood shavings was, apart from sailing and racing, what I looked forward to the most.  Learning to make things is incredibly empowering.  

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1 hour ago, Firefly-DC said:

were you able to get a cost estimate for a new cast keel

 

They're working on it right now.  The foundry got pulled in another direction because of the pandemic so pouring the keel has been tabled until later this Summer but I think that's a good thing.  It allows us to to go back and refine the keel shape.  Ross Weene, Jim Gretzky, Eli and others are likely to be involved with reviewing the keel to make sure that it's fast, legal, and easy to fair. 

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