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35 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Not sure if we know the whole story, but it sure looks stinky.

Also a thread on PA

https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/04/navy-coronavirus-brett-crozier-fired/

 

 

 

The Navy Has an Absurd Explanation for Why It Fired Captain Brett Crozier

 
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BrettCrozier.jpg?w=990

Captain Brett Crozier, commanding officer of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, was fired Thursday.Abaca/ZUMA

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On Monday, Captain Brett Crozier of the USS Theodore Roosevelt dashed off a four-page letter to his superiors detailing the frightening conditions on his ship, where dozens of sailors had become ill with COVID-19. Because of the confined nature of the aircraft carrier, Crozier said in stark terms that his crew would be unable to safely quarantine infected sailors, a situation that increased the chances of the virus spreading to others. He said 90 percent of the sailors needed to disembark in Guam, where the ship was docked, or risk further infections. “The current plan in execution on TR will not achieve virus eradication on any timeline,” he wrote

Hours later, the San Francisco Chronicle published excerpts from Crozier’s letter. By Thursday, he had been relieved of his command. The Navy offered no detailed rebuttal of his letter. In describing his reasons for firing Crozier, acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly sounded at times more like he was giving him a promotion than relieving him of command. “Captain Crozier is an honorable man who, despite this uncharacteristic lapse of judgment, has dedicated himself throughout a lifetime of incredible service to our nation,” Modly told reporters on Thursday. “And he should be proud of that.”

 
 

So what did Crozier do wrong? Here’s how Modly explained it:

The letter was sent over non-secure, unclassified email even though the ship possesses some of the most sophisticated communications and equipment in the fleet. And it wasn’t just sent up the chain of command. It was sent and copied to a broad array of other people. It was sent outside of the chain of command. At the same time, the rest of the Navy was fully responding. Worse, the captain’s actions made the sailors, their families, and many in the public believe that his letter was the only reason help from our larger Navy family was forthcoming, which was hardly the case.

That explanation makes it seem like the Navy’s primary problem was not with Crozier’s choice of words, but his method of delivery. Instead of contacting his superiors discreetly, he wrote a memo that—intentionally or not—could have been leaked. Or he leaked it himself. The Navy wasn’t too clear on that, either. 

Earlier in the press conference, Modly took time to note specifically that the Chronicle is Crozier’s “hometown newspaper,” but when pressed later over whether he believed that Crozier leaked the letter, Modly demurred. “I don’t know. I don’t think I’ll ever know who leaked the information,” he said, adding that Crozier “sent it out pretty broadly. And in sending it out pretty broadly, he did not take care to ensure that it couldn’t be leaked.”

The Navy is in the midst of one of the more serious peacetime crises in its history, after already enduring turmoil in its top ranks. Modly, formerly the No. 2 civilian in the department, only took over in November after the Navy’s last civilian leader, Richard Spencer, was ousted for insubordination in a convoluted chain of events surrounding President Donald Trump’s intervention in the case of disgraced Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher. Crozier had racked up several major awards for outstanding service since graduating from the United States Naval Academy in 1992 and seemed to clearly hold the support of his crew. A video circulating online of him leaving the Roosevelt to cheers from his sailors is one piece of evidence for that. Even Modly acknowledged that Crozier was beloved. 

 

Given the tenuous time and Crozier’s obvious track record, shouldn’t there be a stronger argument for firing him beyond the fact that his letter reached too many people? 

 

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“I have no doubt in my mind that Captain Crozier did what he thought was in the best interests of the safety and well-being of his crew. Unfortunately, it did the opposite,” Modly said. “It unnecessarily raised alarms with the families of our sailors and marines with no plan to address those concerns. It raised concerns about the operational capabilities and operational security of that ship that could have emboldened our adversaries to seek advantage. And it undermined the chain of command who had been moving and adjusting as rapidly as possible to get him the help he needed.”

Rather than raise unnecessary concerns among families, it seems that Crozier’s memo accurately reflected their fears. One mother of a sailor on board the Roosevelt who tested positive for COVID-19 told the Washington Post that the captain’s “letter touched on all the points that us, as family members, were feeling.” The parent of another sailor under Crozier’s command told the Post he “is a hero” who cares “tremendously for the well-being of my daughter and all her shipmates on board TR.”

Even if Navy officials were already responding to Crozier’s concerns in private, their urgency clearly did not match what he felt was necessary. On Tuesday, Modly outlined a possible reason for this in an interview with CNN. “We have been working actually the last seven days to move those sailors off the ship and get them into accommodations in Guam,” he said. “The problem is that Guam doesn’t have enough beds right now and we’re having to talk to the government there to see if we can get some hotel space, create tent-type facilities.” 

But in that same interview, he also said Navy leaders “don’t disagree” with Crozier’s assessment of the threat posed by COVID-19. By Thursday, when speaking with reporters to justify his decision to fire Crozier, Modly seemed to reverse that support. This time around, he said, Crozier’s letter “misrepresented the facts of what was going on on the ship.” When asked to cite a specific example, Modly said, “Well, you raise a particular level of alarm when you say 50 people on the crew are going to die. No one knows that to be true. It does not comport with the data we have.” 

 
 

Crozier’s advice to remove sailors quickly from the ship was ultimately heeded. On Wednesday, the Navy announced a plan to remove more than half of the sailors off the ship. In announcing that decision, Modly and Admiral Michael Gilday, the chief of naval operations, acknowledged a possible misunderstanding with Crozier. “The misunderstanding perhaps was the requirement of the speed to get people off the ship,” Gilday said. “In order to act on a requirement, we have to clearly understand the requirement.”

Crozier’s letter could not have made the timeline more apparent. “Decisive action is required,” he wrote. “Keeping over 4,000 young men and women on board the TR is an unnecessary risk and breaks faith with those Sailors entrusted to our care.”

The only thing decisive about the Navy’s response was the speed with which it fired Crozier. 

Guy Snodgrass, a former Pentagon official under Defense Secretary James Mattis who served with Crozier on the USS Ronald Reagan, said his firing “sets the Navy back significantly as a professional organization, losing trust with both the American public and Sailors.” High-profile Democrats have also latched on to Crozier’s ousting as an example of the Navy’s failure to properly address the accelerating coronavirus crisis among its ranks. In a statement to Reuters, Joe Biden said, “Donald Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary shot the messenger—a commanding officer who was faithful to both his national security mission and his duty to care for his sailors.” Tommy Vietor, an Obama administration national security official who co-hosts the popular liberal podcast Pod Save America, said on Twitter that it was “moving” to watch Crozier’s sailors wish him well, “but infuriating to know that he was fired for refusing to whitewash the disastrous coronavirus response.”

The Navy, in the meantime, expects there will somehow be no deleterious impact stemming from Crozier’s firing. “I trust that it won’t have a chilling effect,” Modly said. “I hope this will reinforce the fact: We have the proper way of handling this.” When time is running out in a crisis of unexpected magnitude, Captain Brett Crozier’s story raises the question of how proper that process really is.

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5 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

The letter was sent over non-secure, unclassified email even though the ship possesses some of the most sophisticated communications and equipment in the fleet. And it wasn’t just sent up the chain of command. It was sent and copied to a broad array of other people. It was sent outside of the chain of command. At the same time, the rest of the Navy was fully responding. Worse, the captain’s actions made the sailors, their families, and many in the public believe that his letter was the only reason help from our larger Navy family was forthcoming, which was hardly the case.

From the article.............this is not a minor sin...............unless he tried through the chain of command and was unsuccessful his actions were wrong. Basic rule in any organization........if you see something wrong, give your boss and his boss a chance to fix it or explain it first. Thats what I expected from my people. 

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1 minute ago, Point Break said:

From the article.............this is not a minor sin...............unless he tried through the chain of command and was unsuccessful his actions were wrong. Basic rule in any organization........if you see something wrong, give your boss and his boss a chance to fix it or explain it first. Thats what I expected from my people. 

 

Somewhere I heard or read that is exactly the case.  But, I don't recall what and where I got that, so could have been opinion rather than fact.

Somewhere

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8 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Somewhere I heard or read that is exactly the case.  But, I don't recall what and where I got that, so could have been opinion rather than fact.

Somewhere

It would be unusual for a guy who has risen to that level of command and success - I mean people who command a CVN are not a dime a dozen - to not know that and not have done that. Your memory/impression may be correct.

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If you think that letter was his first step, you would be completely incorrect.  He worked through the chain of command for several days.  It was common knowledge in and out of the Navy that TR had diverted to Guam with more than 100 positive COVID cases aboard.  As the CO stated in the letter, if there was a wartime requirement, he would have sucked it up and "fought sick."  If Acting Secretary Modly was just finding about it, it may be because he was out of touch and thinking about the new "War on Drugs" he elped teh President roll out Wed evening.  A tough situation and he knew he was offering up his career when he sent the letter.  Commanding Officers have to make hard decisions.  Chopper faced a momentous challenge and chose the health and lives of the crew over his career. Wives, husbands, kids and mothers and fathers will see their loved ones again due to his decision.   He did the right thing for the troops and SECNAV was simply wrong.    

A "relief for cause"or firing is generally referred to as a "Change of Command without the Band."  Even with a band, turning over command of the crew that you have trained, supported and poured your heart and soul into is poignant.  If you want any affirmation that he did the right thing, watch the crew send him ashore after he was relieved.  No shame here and the crew sends a very powerful message to the political appointee who fired him.  https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-captain-crozier-navy-ship-1495974

 

 

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He may have thought this was his only option, but he also knew full well it would cost him his command.  Right or wrong he went outside of the chain of command and that can not be ignored.  He doesnt get to choose when to follow the CoC and when not.

And as to the video, over 5% of the crew have tested positive for the virus and they have a couple hundred people in a hanger next to each other.  Color me skeptical.

MS

 

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36 minutes ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

He may have thought this was his only option, but he also knew full well it would cost him his command.  Right or wrong he went outside of the chain of command and that can not be ignored.  He doesnt get to choose when to follow the CoC and when not.

And as to the video, over 5% of the crew have tested positive for the virus and they have a couple hundred people in a hanger next to each other.  Color me skeptical.

MS

 

You are obviously wrong about that.

Captain made the choice, while aware it could cost him his position. 

CAPTAIN CROZIER FOR PRESIDENT!

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The obvious solution for the Navy is to recall him to Washington, promote him to Admiral, and put him in charge of Navy corona virus response.

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Reinforces my general impression that the USN hierarchy is more interest in protecting their own reputations even when the system dysfunctions.  Find someone to blame and pretend the system works.  Saw a clip where the crew gave him a rousing farewell.  

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17 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The obvious solution for the Navy is to recall him to Washington, promote him to Admiral, and put him in charge of Navy corona virus response.

 

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!!!  :)

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3 hours ago, Point Break said:

Not sure if we know the whole story, but it sure looks stinky.

A fine example of Military Honour by the top brass.

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2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

If you think that letter was his first step, you would be completely incorrect.  He worked through the chain of command for several days.  It was common knowledge in and out of the Navy that TR had diverted to Guam with more than 100 positive COVID cases aboard.  As the CO stated in the letter, if there was a wartime requirement, he would have sucked it up and "fought sick."  If Acting Secretary Modly was just finding about it, it may be because he was out of touch and thinking about the new "War on Drugs" he elped teh President roll out Wed evening.  A tough situation and he knew he was offering up his career when he sent the letter.  Commanding Officers have to make hard decisions.  Chopper faced a momentous challenge and chose the health and lives of the crew over his career. Wives, husbands, kids and mothers and fathers will see their loved ones again due to his decision.   He did the right thing for the troops and SECNAV was simply wrong.    

A "relief for cause"or firing is generally referred to as a "Change of Command without the Band."  Even with a band, turning over command of the crew that you have trained, supported and poured your heart and soul into is poignant.  If you want any affirmation that he did the right thing, watch the crew send him ashore after he was relieved.  No shame here and the crew sends a very powerful message to the political appointee who fired him.  https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-captain-crozier-navy-ship-1495974

 

 

Yep, totally concur.  

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I interpret Crozier’s action to be a refusal to carry out an improper order. His letter went heavily into the science and epidemiology of fighting a shipboard epidemic. It creates a very public record and ammo for others’ discussion and usage.

Not only does it have immediate fleet readiness implications, Croziers letter will reverberate around the entire military. This incident puts all commanders, the Pentagon & civilian leaders on notice that they cannot expect to implement half-assed science and expected full-throated support. Far from it.

We have the example of a highly intelligent, ambitious and successful Navy Captain tossing his premier command away in order to save his sailors. Coming on the heels of SevNAV  Spencer tossing away his career in order to stand up for the UCMJ?

It ain’t mutiny, but IMO command level NAVY is sending strong signals that they are fed up with civilian bullshit.

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I believe that Captain Crozier, like Michael Atkinson, Inspector General, who has also been fired, are honorable people who have not "fallen on their sword".

They have been competent public servants who have done their best possible jobs.

They found they had a choice between giving up their personal, and professional values, or taking a step that they both knew would end their careers.

Was probably easy.

There is no one in their right mind who would want to be riding on the train, as we all are, through this tunnel with this administration. The light at the end of the tunnel is definitely not daylight.

We will all have to find a way to pick up the pieces, and move ahead. Hopefully with people like Crozier, and Atkinson involved. 

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I know I will get a lot of grief,  but to me he fucked up smooth..

If he wanted to carbon copy the house/senate intell committees, the POTUS , or Sec of Navy/defense that is fine.

Plenty of places  to loge his protest to before letting our enemies know.

Lord knows there are enough anti-military congress critters in his home state who could have made inquiries in record time.

but you just do not broadcast your ship is not operational to all our enemies. Especially with his task force so close to China..  Pentagon has been keeping an extra vigilant eye on China for several years.

This action is as stupid as some media pinheads at the coronavirus briefings constantly asking for the operational impact at various military bases. You do not want our enemies to know where we have gaps.

 

At his rank, he should have known better.  Hence them coming down like a pallet of bricks on him.

This is not your college sociology dept.  It is the military and it has its own rules that members are are expected to abide by or face the consequences.

He will be gone soon enough as his career is now toast.  Likely will work for some MIC manufacturer or run for congress and that is good for him.

 

I am tired of these numb nuts who think they know better and start crying and causing trouble the minute they do not get their way like an 11 year old.  Same as Col Vindman going to WaPo as he thought he knew better foreign policy than the POTUS and his staff.  Do the job you signed up for or resign.  No door C...

If he wigs out over the flu outbreak, would he take his ship into Harm's way, or email the SF Chronicle "They want me to attack Hong Kong next Tuesday and people could be killed"

I took the same oath and understood I could lose my life in an action I may not agree with.

 

Sorry, but while I applaud his convection, his actions were incorrect for a senior naval officer.

 

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Wait until the first boomers and attack boats return from patrol and offload full body bags. I'll wager the career losses will track much higher up the COC when that happens.

This is just the opening salvo of a coming war.

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4 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

At his rank, he should have known better.  Hence them coming down like a pallet of bricks on him.

Are you so fucking clueless that you actually think a carrier captain didn't "know better"?

Are you so fucking clueless that you actually think a carrier captain hadn't exhausted all other options first?

 

Wait... don't answer those questions.

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6 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

I know I will get a lot of grief,  but to me he fucked up smooth..

If he wanted to carbon copy the house/senate intell committees, the POTUS , or Sec of Navy/defense that is fine.

Plenty of places  to loge his protest to before letting our enemies know.

Lord knows there are enough anti-military congress critters in his home state who could have made inquiries in record time.

but you just do not broadcast your ship is not operational to all our enemies. Especially with his task force so close to China..  Pentagon has been keeping an extra vigilant eye on China for several years.

 

 

i'm sorry but aircraft carries are merely floating targets..   the next battle will be with pilot-less drones and  cruise missiles..

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Are you so fucking clueless that you actually think a carrier captain didn't "know better"?

Are you so fucking clueless that you actually think a carrier captain hadn't exhausted all other options first?

 

Wait... don't answer those questions.

a captain's duty is to his crew and his ship first and foremost..   he got canned for embarrassing the people at DOD   and at this time we have no idea who leaked what, for all we know he was setup

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8 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

a captain's duty is to his crew and his ship first and foremost..  

That's funny, there's nothing about that in the oath that all Navy officers swear.

“I do solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. To bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation – or purpose of evasion. And that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to embark. So help me God.”

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25 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

That's funny, there's nothing about that in the oath that all Navy officers swear.

“I do solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. To bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation – or purpose of evasion. And that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to embark. So help me God.”

To me, what I highlighted seems to cover when we did. I don't see any statement to the effect that I will always do what I am told even if it might kill some of people for little to no purpose. Maybe the military needs to get into the 21st century?

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4 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

To me, what I highlighted seems to cover when we did. I don't see any statement to the effect that I will always do what I am told even if it might kill some of people for little to no purpose. Maybe the military needs to get into the 21st century?

Yours is not to ask why, yours is to do or die.

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1 hour ago, chum said:

Its an old quote from some Brit. Its drummed into the heads of enlisted Marines in bootcamp by Drill Instructors. At least it used to be, I think they're singing Kumbahyah now.

Alfred Lord Tennyson Quotes   Charge of the Light Brigade

Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die.

 

like i said, generals from far away barking away such orders..    watch black adder season 5  

 

 

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the Captian of a ship has a duty to his crew as well 

All persons on board including public authorities, crew, and passengers are under the captain's authority and are his or her ultimate responsibility, particularly during navigation. In the case of injury or death of a crew member or passenger, the master is responsible to address any medical issues affecting the passengers and crew by providing medical care as possible, cooperating with shore-side medical personnel, and, if necessary, evacuating those who need more assistance than can be provided on board the ship

 

i can understand his conflict, and he’s required by his oath to take his crew and ship and put them in harms way.  While at the same time protecting them.  

 what he did is akin to what corporate whistleblowers do, and they are afforded protection under the law.  However, the military has its own laws and rules.  

He did what he thought was right.   Looks like he had good career, Annapolis, Naval aviator ( helo and f/a 18) , xo on the Ronald regal,  squadron commander of f/a18’s, commander of an LCC, and his final command the teddy.   Which he left with his head held high, and support of the sailors under his command.  There are worse ways to end a career.

 

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Knew some of you would lose it. Bet most of you never served.

This is the flu. Yes it can spread, but you have 100 cases out of 5,000 young sailors who should not have respiratory or diabetes to worry about.  Some may get that flu.  Just like every year. The Navy knows how to deal with such things.  Better than the poor SOBs in Iraq where the Iranians have already blown them up with missiles in the prior weeks.  No stories to the press.  They stand their watch. 

Or your grand dads taking hills in Guadalcanal or IMO Jima. Wave after wave of soldiers cut down.   Then they call your number and you move out and do your job.

 

Heck, I bet most of you never even had to put your entire career on the line knowing you may lose the house you spent 15 years saving for, lose all your savings, with a good chance of losing your family too.  Still monkey dust compared to following orders when in harms way.

 

His job is operational readiness and an aircraft carrier is as operational as it gets.

As I said, he could have protested to a variety of people in the chain of command, but NOT THE PRESS.

He could have quietly gone to Guam and told everyone affected  to get off and take the heat.

Who else should be able to call the press fi they feel things are not right?  The XO?  The lead doctor?  Some E2 slinging hash in the mess hall?  Slippery slope folks..

 

This smells like a John Kerry moment, but I will give him a pass due to his achievements and we shall see in 2 years.

If he quietly retires with his pension, then he is a heck of an officer who made an honest mistake in how he approached the problem.

If he runs for office, he is a low life like John Kerry gaming the system to make himself look good for an upcoming political career.

TIme will tell...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Foreverslow said:

Knew some of you would lose it. Bet most of you never served.

This is the flu. Yes it can spread, but you have 100 cases out of 5,000 young sailors who should not have respiratory or diabetes to worry about.  Some may get that flu.  Just like every year. The Navy knows how to deal with such things.  Better than the poor SOBs in Iraq where the Iranians have already blown them up with missiles in the prior weeks.  No stories to the press.  They stand their watch. 

Or your grand dads taking hills in Guadalcanal or IMO Jima. Wave after wave of soldiers cut down.   Then they call your number and you move out and do your job.

 

Heck, I bet most of you never even had to put your entire career on the line knowing you may lose the house you spent 15 years saving for, lose all your savings, with a good chance of losing your family too.  Still monkey dust compared to following orders when in harms way.

 

His job is operational readiness and an aircraft carrier is as operational as it gets.

As I said, he could have protested to a variety of people in the chain of command, but NOT THE PRESS.

He could have quietly gone to Guam and told everyone affected  to get off and take the heat.

Who else should be able to call the press fi they feel things are not right?  The XO?  The lead doctor?  Some E2 slinging hash in the mess hall?  Slippery slope folks..

 

This smells like a John Kerry moment, but I will give him a pass due to his achievements and we shall see in 2 years.

If he quietly retires with his pension, then he is a heck of an officer who made an honest mistake in how he approached the problem.

If he runs for office, he is a low life like John Kerry gaming the system to make himself look good for an upcoming political career.

TIme will tell...

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/04/trump-wants-him-fired-inside-ouster-capt-brett-crozier/

“I think the firing was a really bad decision, because it undermines the authority of the military commanders who are trying to take care of their troops, and significantly negatively impacts the willingness of commanders to speak truth to power,” said retired Adm. Mike Mullen, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview Saturday.

[...]

One retired four-star officer said he was worried about “undue command influence” by Modly. The acting secretary had the authority to sack Crozier but in doing so undermined the uniformed officers who normally oversee such personnel decisions. “This is much bigger than the CO of the Theodore Roosevelt,” he said. “We’ve been working for years to make our commanding officers feel free to speak out about problems.” That openness might now be quashed.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

That's funny, there's nothing about that in the oath that all Navy officers swear.

“I do solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. To bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation – or purpose of evasion. And that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to embark. So help me God.”

"A Captain" not a Naval officer.

All ships captains first duty is to their ship & crew - that's why they have God-like power.

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1 hour ago, Foreverslow said:

Knew some of you would lose it. Bet most of you never served.

This is the flu. Yes it can spread, but you have 100 cases out of 5,000 young sailors who should not have respiratory or diabetes to worry about.  Some may get that flu.  Just like every year. The Navy knows how to deal with such things.  Better than the poor SOBs in Iraq where the Iranians have already blown them up with missiles in the prior weeks.  No stories to the press.  They stand their watch. 

Or your grand dads taking hills in Guadalcanal or IMO Jima. Wave after wave of soldiers cut down.   Then they call your number and you move out and do your job.

 

Heck, I bet most of you never even had to put your entire career on the line knowing you may lose the house you spent 15 years saving for, lose all your savings, with a good chance of losing your family too.  Still monkey dust compared to following orders when in harms way.

 

His job is operational readiness and an aircraft carrier is as operational as it gets.

As I said, he could have protested to a variety of people in the chain of command, but NOT THE PRESS.

He could have quietly gone to Guam and told everyone affected  to get off and take the heat.

Who else should be able to call the press fi they feel things are not right?  The XO?  The lead doctor?  Some E2 slinging hash in the mess hall?  Slippery slope folks..

 

This smells like a John Kerry moment, but I will give him a pass due to his achievements and we shall see in 2 years.

If he quietly retires with his pension, then he is a heck of an officer who made an honest mistake in how he approached the problem.

If he runs for office, he is a low life like John Kerry gaming the system to make himself look good for an upcoming political career.

TIme will tell...

 

 

Looks like we have a new candidate for the ignore button.

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58 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Looks like we have a new candidate for the ignore button.

well he is foreverslow...   have to be kind to the mentally challenged..     like i mentioned, it's a raw deal, there's too many firings because someone thinks it affects "their" image..

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Well I can't comment with any authority on why/how he got fired.  So I will toss this video into the mix for the hapless captain.  Hope something besides the talk show circuit for him.

I bet he could buy a FT from Scot, he will have free time now.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

that's what all the generals say,   from 100 miles behind the  front lines...

All that comment does is reveal your complete ignorance of how the military works.  What do you think those generals did before they were generals?  They started out as 2nd lieutenant platoon leaders, and if there was a war, they were leading their platoon in combat. 

While it might be the stuff legends are made of and maybe it looks good in the movies, it isn't good to have generals on the front line because it gives them a very limited view of the battlefield, and also, they can't lead if they are dead.  2nd lieutenants are a dime a dozen, there aren't a lot of generals.

You continue to reveal your disdain and ignorance of all things military.  You might think you are being clever and smart, I think you are just being an ass. 

I respect the people here that have actual military experience and have generally expressed views contrary to mine.  I have no respect for you and your opinions, on this subject or most most others here.  Just my opinion, of course.

It's too bad you and the other armchair warriors here can't keep your mouths shut, but carry on.  Everybody can express their opinions, no matter how misguided or ludicrous they are.  It's occasionally entertaining.

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11 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

well he is foreverslow...   have to be kind to the mentally challenged..     like i mentioned, it's a raw deal, there's too many firings because someone thinks it affects "their" image..

 

Do what you want boys want.

But anyone who gets their military insights from the NY Times and SF Chronicle does not have a fucking clue how the military works..

Fine papers if you want to read about global warming, organic filters for your koi pond or the latest hip hair bun. 

Those papers are bringing it up to hurt the POTUS as they all have long track records the last 3 years.

For Christ's sake, at least read the Navy TImes which is trying to cover this story fairly.

 

Around the world a bunch of kids getting paid  minimum wages to protect your sorry asses day and night to allow you to write such tripe.

You pull a carrier group unplanned, you have just left a gap in Pacific where we have our highest tensions, and you have endangered all the other carriers groups in the area along with the soldiers and airmen on the North Korean DMZ, Japan etc. You, the NYT, and SF Chronicle have no idea what mission that carrier group may be performing in secret or providing logistics for.

As I said, if he had concerns, he had other avenues to express them.

Instead he decided to contact the press and that is not in the chain of command.  It allows propaganda for our enemies and can even embolden them (think of Elvis in Pyongyang ).

Latest count is 155 infected out of 5000 on the Roosevelt and no deaths.  that is 3%.

 

You folks can set me to ignore.  Obviously my comments around afoul of you parroting MSM propaganda and you have no clue how the military works.

Keep calling names via your keyboard and feeling superior due to the sacrifices members of the military like myself have been making for decades.     Us adults who have been there know the real score.

 

Bottom Line:  I have yet to hear a valid explanation why he wrote to the SF Chronicle instead of exercising other levels of the chain of command. 

Being in fear is not valid in that job.

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Foreverslow said:

Bottom Line:  I have yet to hear

And that sums it up in a nutshell, you know just as much as anybody else outside of the USN. 

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3 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

You folks can set me to ignore.  Obviously my comments around afoul of you parroting MSM propaganda and you have no clue how the military works.

Mustang.  Command at Sea and Ashore.  Do have a clue how the military works.  Ignore?  Done.

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3 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

You folks can set me to ignore.  Obviously my comments around afoul of you parroting MSM propaganda and you have no clue how the military works.

From my previous post:

“I think the firing was a really bad decision, because it undermines the authority of the military commanders who are trying to take care of their troops, and significantly negatively impacts the willingness of commanders to speak truth to power,” said retired Adm. Mike Mullen, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview Saturday.

So you think you have a better idea how the military works than a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

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If history serves, the Captain of the Theodore Roosevelt did pretty much the same thing as Teddy Roosevelt did.

Roosevelt family had more juice in Washington. Too bad.

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1 hour ago, jhc said:

The captain has the virus.

Really stupid move to fire him for cause.

Failure of leadership personified.

End of story.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18192771

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15145384

Interesting research on the impact of disease versus hostile action.  Infectious diseases have historically been critical to operational readiness.  Seems to be that the captain correctly identified and prioritized the most immediate threat to his ability to effectively carry out his mission.  Sometimes it's a cruise missile, sometimes it's a virus.

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3 hours ago, slap said:

From my previous post:

“I think the firing was a really bad decision, because it undermines the authority of the military commanders who are trying to take care of their troops, and significantly negatively impacts the willingness of commanders to speak truth to power,” said retired Adm. Mike Mullen, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview Saturday.

So you think you have a better idea how the military works than a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

Foreverslow (no relation) seems to see everything through his orange tRump lens

 

I would bet he also thinks Trump has done a good job on COVID but the mean lame stream media just wont give him a fair shake.  

 

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On 4/4/2020 at 4:00 PM, Foreverslow said:

Knew some of you would lose it. Bet most of you never served.

This is the flu. Yes it can spread, but you have 100 cases out of 5,000 young sailors who should not have respiratory or diabetes to worry about.  Some may get that flu.  Just like every year. The Navy knows how to deal with such things.  Better than the poor SOBs in Iraq where the Iranians have already blown them up with missiles in the prior weeks.  No stories to the press.  They stand their watch. 

Or your grand dads taking hills in Guadalcanal or IMO Jima. Wave after wave of soldiers cut down.   Then they call your number and you move out and do your job.

 

Heck, I bet most of you never even had to put your entire career on the line knowing you may lose the house you spent 15 years saving for, lose all your savings, with a good chance of losing your family too.  Still monkey dust compared to following orders when in harms way.

 

His job is operational readiness and an aircraft carrier is as operational as it gets.

As I said, he could have protested to a variety of people in the chain of command, but NOT THE PRESS.

He could have quietly gone to Guam and told everyone affected  to get off and take the heat.

Who else should be able to call the press fi they feel things are not right?  The XO?  The lead doctor?  Some E2 slinging hash in the mess hall?  Slippery slope folks..

 

This smells like a John Kerry moment, but I will give him a pass due to his achievements and we shall see in 2 years.

If he quietly retires with his pension, then he is a heck of an officer who made an honest mistake in how he approached the problem.

If he runs for office, he is a low life like John Kerry gaming the system to make himself look good for an upcoming political career.

TIme will tell...

 

 

Lemme guess...you were Air Force.

Amiright??  

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3 hours ago, chum said:

What part of what Foreverslow is saying is it that you guys disagree so much with?

That the captain was wrong.

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On 4/3/2020 at 6:57 PM, jhc said:
On 4/3/2020 at 6:19 PM, Mr. Squirrel said:

He may have thought this was his only option, but he also knew full well it would cost him his command.  Right or wrong he went outside of the chain of command and that can not be ignored.  He doesnt get to choose when to follow the CoC and when not.

And as to the video, over 5% of the crew have tested positive for the virus and they have a couple hundred people in a hanger next to each other.  Color me skeptical.

MS

 

You are obviously wrong about that.

Captain made the choice, while aware it could cost him his position. 

CAPTAIN CROZIER FOR PRESIDENT!

You're both saying the same thing- I don't understand why you're suggesting that Squirrel is wrong? 

 

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8 hours ago, Point Break said:

Yeah, I still don’t think I know the whole story but IB seems pretty supportive. He was brown shoe after all. I’m leaning his way.

Really trying to stay away from the shitfight but those who take a harder view than I do are expressing their opinions and they are not totally wrong.  As I pointed out, Chopper very likely knew his letter was effectively his resignation.  I remain convinced that he worked it through his immediate COC and got a lot of push back. He didn't just pull into Guam on a whim.  That was a scheduled stop and it was openly known that TR has CV-19 aboard and was in trouble.   His dissent was how wise it was or wasn't to get back underway without a quarantine and cleaning to stop the virus at that point.  

Some have pointed out the gap in preparedness that his decision has created.  The Pacific is a challenge.  China has serious designs on their 9 Dash Line Strategy and believes they will bring the insurgents in Taiwan back under mainland control.  You can determine for yourself if this is a time when they might strike.  Do you take a 2-3 week pause to "clean" the ship or do you spend that 3 weeks getting sicker and be unable to fight if the ball goes up?  Again, hard choices.  

I'm personally a big advocate of what former CNO Vern Clark called "covenant leadership".  When you take command of young men and women that have signed up to give their lives if necessary, that's a very significant responsibility and should never be taken lightly.  Additionally, as you get more senior, the decisions get harder.  Well trained subordinates make the easy decisions and you really don't want a young LT thinking a lot when carrying out orders.  Officers in major deployed commands have to employ strategic leadership.  At times, that can mean making hard decisions about life and death.  Capt Crozier, responsible for the health, welfare, readiness and lives of 1.5% of the Navy's personnel came to one of those decisions and made his moral decision fully understanding the consequences. I respect him for that.  

I'd ask that former military who espouse a hard opinion one way or the other state their experience.  I'm a VN era enlisted man who kept getting offered "good deals".  I attended the Naval Academy, flew fighters ff carriers, held CDR Command at sea and Major Command as a Captain ashore. I attended Senior Service College (ICAF) and have studied ethical decision making, strategic leadership and the elements of National Power.  In staff positions,  I served as aviation readiness director on a fleet staff and as the Executive Assistant to a 3 star major claimant.  I attended far too many funerals and memorial services.  My moral touchstones are places such as Gettysburg, Normandy, Pearl Harbor and The Vietnam Memorial. As my Army counterparts would say, I've walked the ground alone and listened to the ghosts.  If you are going to ask people to die, you need to respect those who did and try to understand the leaders who commanded them.  

Enough.  I'm just an old retired Captain with opinions. 

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You're both saying the same thing- I don't understand why you're suggesting that Squirrel is wrong? 

 

Sorry should have edited: 

"He doesnt get to choose when to follow the CoC and when not."

Crozier is not bound to follow the CoC. He is bound by is conscience.

 

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9 minutes ago, jhc said:

Sorry should have edited: 

"He doesnt get to choose when to follow the CoC and when not."

Crozier is not bound to follow the CoC. He is bound by is conscience.

 

Sorry - in that case, I have to disagree with you.  Every military member IS absolutely bound to abide by the code of conduct.   They may have moral qualms about doing so, and in choosing to disregard the code of conduct to abide by their personal mores?  They do so in peril of UCMJ action.  I am empathetic to Crozier, and without knowing what their current/immediate future deployment posture was, can't understand why Big Navy would have pushed back.  In the same situation?   I may have made the same decision.  If so?  I ( and He) know the ramifications of such a decision, and would have accepted them afterwards, as he appears to have done. 

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1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Really trying to stay away from the shitfight but those who take a harder view than I do are expressing their opinions and they are not totally wrong.  As I pointed out, Chopper very likely knew his letter was effectively his resignation.  I remain convinced that he worked it through his immediate COC and got a lot of push back. He didn't just pull into Guam on a whim.  That was a scheduled stop and it was openly known that TR has CV-19 aboard and was in trouble.   His dissent was how wise it was or wasn't to get back underway without a quarantine and cleaning to stop the virus at that point.  

Some have pointed out the gap in preparedness that his decision has created.  The Pacific is a challenge.  China has serious designs on their 9 Dash Line Strategy and believes they will bring the insurgents in Taiwan back under mainland control.  You can determine for yourself if this is a time when they might strike.  Do you take a 2-3 week pause to "clean" the ship or do you spend that 3 weeks getting sicker and be unable to fight if the ball goes up?  Again, hard choices.  

I'm personally a big advocate of what former CNO Vern Clark called "covenant leadership".  When you take command of young men and women that have signed up to give their lives if necessary, that's a very significant responsibility and should never be taken lightly.  Additionally, as you get more senior, the decisions get harder.  Well trained subordinates make the easy decisions and you really don't want a young LT thinking a lot when carrying out orders.  Officers in major deployed commands have to employ strategic leadership.  At times, that can mean making hard decisions about life and death.  Capt Crozier, responsible for the health, welfare, readiness and lives of 1.5% of the Navy's personnel came to one of those decisions and made his moral decision fully understanding the consequences. I respect him for that.  

I'd ask that former military who espouse a hard opinion one way or the other state their experience.  I'm a VN era enlisted man who kept getting offered "good deals".  I attended the Naval Academy, flew fighters ff carriers, held CDR Command at sea and Major Command as a Captain ashore. I attended Senior Service College (ICAF) and have studied ethical decision making, strategic leadership and the elements of National Power.  In staff positions,  I served as aviation readiness director on a fleet staff and as the Executive Assistant to a 3 star major claimant.  I attended far too many funerals and memorial services.  My moral touchstones are places such as Gettysburg, Normandy, Pearl Harbor and The Vietnam Memorial. As my Army counterparts would say, I've walked the ground alone and listened to the ghosts.  If you are going to ask people to die, you need to respect those who did and try to understand the leaders who commanded them.  

Enough.  I'm just an old retired Captain with opinions. 

This.

For my 37 years I spent 30 as a command officer (yes I promoted quite young) and the last 4 as an Executive Fire Officer. I can identify with pretty much everything you mention about leading young (and old) men and women into perilous circumstances. Without elaborating too much, I learned those lessons of "covenant leadership" from first my father who was an old mustang USMC, and later from various leaders good and bad. I ALWAYS took care of my people, always demanded they stay true to our mission, and most often could balance the needs/desires of the organization as well. In my fathers words "you don't eat until your people have eaten, you don't sleep until they are all in bed, you don't lie in a cot if they are on the ground". Treat them that way and soon they understand and trust your leadership and then they'll drive into the very flames of hell if you ask them to. That in itself is an unbelievable responsibility. I really enjoyed that role in my organization, and especially took my responsibility as the conduit of information and "feelings" in both directions very seriously. Sometimes you have to stand up for them and articulate critically important information about your command and your people. Its not easy and I never had to face a career ending decision but certainly got some frowns and disapproval but you have take care of your people to be able to look in the mirror every day. 

Our touchstones are a little different but the feelings are the same, certainly enough so that your words resonate with me..............

Carry on Captain.

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As a last follow up, I will include a quote from one of my very favorite speeches (I love the spoken word and the many beautiful speeches throughout history) which you will most certainly recognize. It expresses the concepts of those touchstones and responsibilities absolutely perfectly. 

Quote

Others will debate the controversial issues, national and international, which divide men's minds. But serene, calm, aloof, you stand as the Nation's war guardians, as its lifeguards from the raging tides of international conflict, as its gladiators in the arena of battle. For a century and a half you have defended, guarded and protected its hallowed traditions of liberty and freedom, of right and justice. Let civilian voices argue the merits or demerits of our processes of government: whether our strength is being sapped by deficit financing indulged in too long, by federal paternalism grown too mighty, by power groups grown too arrogant, by politics grown too corrupt, by crime grown too rampant, by morals grown too low, by taxes grown too high, by extremists grown too violent; whether our personal liberties are as firm and complete as they should be; these great national problems are not for your professional participation or military solution. Your guidepost stands out like a tenfold beacon in the night: Duty, Honor, Country.

You are the leaven which binds together the entire fabric of our national system of defense. From your ranks come the great captains who hold the Nation's destiny in their hands the moment the war tocsin sounds.

The Long Gray Line has never failed us. Were you to do so, a million ghosts in olive drab, in brown khaki, in blue and gray,ºwould rise from their white crosses, thundering those magic words: Duty, Honor, Country.

This does not mean that you are warmongers. On the contrary, the soldier above all other people prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. But always in our ears ring the ominous words of Plato, that wisest of all philosophers: "Only the dead have seen the end of war."e

The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here. My days of old have vanished — tone and tint. They have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday. I listen then, but with thirsty ear, for the witching melody of faint bugles blowing reveille, of far drums beating the long roll. In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange, mournful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening of my memory alwaysº I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and re-echoes: Duty, Honor, Country.

Today marks my final roll call with you. But I want you to know that when I cross the river, my last conscious thoughts will be of the Corps, and the Corps, and the Corps.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/America/United_States/Army/USMA/MacArthur/1962_speech_to_the_Corps.html

 

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40 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Sorry - in that case, I have to disagree with you.  Every military member IS absolutely bound to abide by the code of conduct.   They may have moral qualms about doing so, and in choosing to disregard the code of conduct to abide by their personal mores?  They do so in peril of UCMJ action.  I am empathetic to Crozier, and without knowing what their current/immediate future deployment posture was, can't understand why Big Navy would have pushed back.  In the same situation?   I may have made the same decision.  If so?  I ( and He) know the ramifications of such a decision, and would have accepted them afterwards, as he appears to have done. 

We are not experiencing a “Pearl Harbor, or 9/11”moment. 

What we are going through is a “Dr Strangelove” moment. I would say CaptaIn Crozier did not see himself figuratively riding the bomb down. 

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51 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Sorry - in that case, I have to disagree with you.  Every military member IS absolutely bound to abide by the code of conduct.   They may have moral qualms about doing so, and in choosing to disregard the code of conduct to abide by their personal mores?  They do so in peril of UCMJ action.  I am empathetic to Crozier, and without knowing what their current/immediate future deployment posture was, can't understand why Big Navy would have pushed back.  In the same situation?   I may have made the same decision.  If so?  I ( and He) know the ramifications of such a decision, and would have accepted them afterwards, as he appears to have done. 

He should have just followed orders. :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Really trying to stay away from the shitfight but those who take a harder view than I do are expressing their opinions and they are not totally wrong.  As I pointed out, Chopper very likely knew his letter was effectively his resignation.  I remain convinced that he worked it through his immediate COC and got a lot of push back. He didn't just pull into Guam on a whim.  That was a scheduled stop and it was openly known that TR has CV-19 aboard and was in trouble.   His dissent was how wise it was or wasn't to get back underway without a quarantine and cleaning to stop the virus at that point.  

Some have pointed out the gap in preparedness that his decision has created.  The Pacific is a challenge.  China has serious designs on their 9 Dash Line Strategy and believes they will bring the insurgents in Taiwan back under mainland control.  You can determine for yourself if this is a time when they might strike.  Do you take a 2-3 week pause to "clean" the ship or do you spend that 3 weeks getting sicker and be unable to fight if the ball goes up?  Again, hard choices.  

I'm personally a big advocate of what former CNO Vern Clark called "covenant leadership".  When you take command of young men and women that have signed up to give their lives if necessary, that's a very significant responsibility and should never be taken lightly.  Additionally, as you get more senior, the decisions get harder.  Well trained subordinates make the easy decisions and you really don't want a young LT thinking a lot when carrying out orders.  Officers in major deployed commands have to employ strategic leadership.  At times, that can mean making hard decisions about life and death.  Capt Crozier, responsible for the health, welfare, readiness and lives of 1.5% of the Navy's personnel came to one of those decisions and made his moral decision fully understanding the consequences. I respect him for that.  

I'd ask that former military who espouse a hard opinion one way or the other state their experience.  I'm a VN era enlisted man who kept getting offered "good deals".  I attended the Naval Academy, flew fighters ff carriers, held CDR Command at sea and Major Command as a Captain ashore. I attended Senior Service College (ICAF) and have studied ethical decision making, strategic leadership and the elements of National Power.  In staff positions,  I served as aviation readiness director on a fleet staff and as the Executive Assistant to a 3 star major claimant.  I attended far too many funerals and memorial services.  My moral touchstones are places such as Gettysburg, Normandy, Pearl Harbor and The Vietnam Memorial. As my Army counterparts would say, I've walked the ground alone and listened to the ghosts.  If you are going to ask people to die, you need to respect those who did and try to understand the leaders who commanded them.  

Enough.  I'm just an old retired Captain with opinions. 

Well said, IB.  Thank you.  

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43 minutes ago, Point Break said:

As a last follow up, I will include a quote from one of my very favorite speeches (I love the spoken word and the many beautiful speeches throughout history) which you will most certainly recognize. It expresses the concepts of those touchstones and responsibilities absolutely perfectly. 

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/America/United_States/Army/USMA/MacArthur/1962_speech_to_the_Corps.html

 

MacArthur certainly had a high opinion of himself, he was a showman, he could be a real dick, and he was appropriately relieved of command, the only 5 star general in US the military to accomplish that.

But his farewell address at West Point was one of the finest speeches in American history IMO.  

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

He should have just followed orders. :rolleyes:

Ahh, the Nuremberg defense.  How well did that work?

I have no military experience, but a lot of medical experience in clinical practice and in high level Federal policy development.  Currently dealing with SARS-COVID effects on Federal programs in my post-Fed career.  They suspended the VN draft when I turned 18, so off to college and med school and residency.  Bits of training experience at the old Walter Reed and various VA stuff.  Was assigned by the Feds as a civilian in a rural community health center for my first post-residency job around the time of Farm-Aid.  As a fed I was the reviewing officer for a number of O4 - O-6 level medical staff and am very familiar with the deployment stuff they deal with and the burden on families.  One lost his dad on the Thresher and I treasure the baseball cap he gave me from Thresher.  My direct boss before I was promoted into his job was a recently retired bird colonel.  Several of my former students, friends, and colleagues served in Afghanistan and we kept in touch.  Tons of respect for the losses and burdens endured by them and their families.  That noted, every walk of life has its stars and its occasional chuckleheads.

SARS-COVID is much worse than seasonal influenza.  Am informally helping some folks working on COVID vaccine development.  Happy to defer to those who served in uniform on the military stuff.  But I probably know a lot more about COVID than most on the thread.  :)

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2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Enough.  I'm just an old retired Captain with opinions. 

Well said Cap'n IB.  Respect.  [Snaps off a crisp, sharp soldier's salute]

 

 

I think I have related my military experience here enough times.

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it's been reported taht captain Crozier has now tested positive for covid-19... whether his protestations were about himself, we'll never know, but he probably realized it would be a matter of time before the whole ship was infected  and saw what was happening with the cruise ships and thus forced the issue...  when the bureaucrats run the military, nothing is safe,  hopefully we have similar people handling our nuclear arsenal..

 

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Can't really add much to IB's answers here but something I read recently about the Navy hospital ships being deployed: Despite the impression that the pres gave, they are only equipped to handle non covid-19 cases because of the air systems - no way to effectively quarantine patients so the only patients that can be accepted have to be shown to not have the virus.

If it's that big of an issue on a ship designed for medical stuff, I would have to assume that a very large military ship doesn't include quarantining large numbers of highly infectious crew members from a respiratory illness. Doesn't take a math major (which I am not) to realize that something that can double more than once a week wouldn't take long to infect most of the crew.

My hats off to the Capt and what ever happens he is and always be a hero in my book.

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

MacArthur certainly had a high opinion of himself, he was a showman, he could be a real dick, and he was appropriately relieved of command, the only 5 star general in US the military to accomplish that.

But his farewell address at West Point was one of the finest speeches in American history IMO.  

He should have been cashiered after his fuckup in the Philippines.

The American Montgomery.

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Reading really isn't your strong suit, is it? 

Why don't you explain it to me since I'm such a dimwit?

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1 hour ago, jewingiv said:

That goes against any notion of command presence I have ever thought. Its hard to sort this one out on the face of it. Croziers actions - while not according to Hoyle - seem as a result of not getting there any other way......it is really hard to fathom he didn't understand the ramifications or have pursued alternative actions within his chain of command. As I said, you don't command of a CVA and not have lots of intelligence and savvy. And you have Modly who is not exactly McNamara clone and not exactly a warrior either.......but he is a Academy Grad, pilot and accomplished diplomat to have risen to his current level. (Bio below). Something does not compute for me................

https://www.defense.gov/Our-Story/Biographies/Biography/Article/1905292/thomas-b-modly/

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58 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

it's been reported taht captain Crozier has now tested positive for covid-19... whether his protestations were about himself, we'll never know, but he probably realized it would be a matter of time before the whole ship was infected  and saw what was happening with the cruise ships and thus forced the issue...  when the bureaucrats run the military, nothing is safe,  hopefully we have similar people handling our nuclear arsenal..

 

During the Vietnam war LBJ often personally chose the targets for the bombing raids over North Vietnam.  The military folks weren't too happy about that.  

The system was set up a long time ago to have civilians at the top of the military food chain.  History has shown that's not a bad idea.  Do you think everyone in the military is a saint?  

 

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