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I see in the USA you are now getting 1000's of deaths a day, and this will increase over time as infected people show up as positive. Look at the published stats, the contagion rate is exponential &am

This is probably the dumbest post ever on SA. I can tell that from Lombardy, where we already had 8k+ fucking dead people (and real number may be 15k dead people … and I know a few!), which is wh

^^^^ This. It's not what your doing after leaving the house. It's leaving the house for essentials only. Boating is not an essential unless you can show otherwise ie. a place of isolation. End of stor

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3 minutes ago, 17mika said:

This is not about banning fucking sailing, this is blocking people from moving, from getting close to each other, from using the same restrooms and bathrooms, from touching stuff that has been just touched by others, etc.

Yep. It's taking a long time for some for the penny to drop.

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39 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mate there is far much more at play here.

The lock-downs in some US States for boaters is fucking with bookmaker odds in the RTW race, the Coronavirus Cup and slowing the US.

The two maxi boats the US, a fat 100 foot foiled fucking monster with crew to burn and the UK a older skinnier mini RP 66 lighter crewed are current podium chasers. Both have blond haired populist skippers driving that make Ted Turner look sane and an Amish tee totaler. This has lead to them both persevering with a weather routing plan far north of the fucking rhumb line that many other boats took.

The Asian contingent of boats in particular, which is sort of ironic because it was those fuckers that kicked the race off with oodles of cash under the condition of a race course via Asia and back over the equator. Even those pesky little 40 footers like Australia from that same postcode are blitzing it staying low but slow.

Anyway the US and UK's Pandemic Weather Routing Plans were never going to cut the mustard. Like both had shit rig testing and not enough wet weather gear despite big budgets. However the two skippers resisted the alternative of a public unpopular and costly economic response prefering instead truckloads of the crew turning their toes up on watch until far too late. So a new costlier plan of heading back to the thumb line but with more crew having a heartbeat and getting on the piss at race end has only recently transpired. Around 16/23 March to be precise but some watch leaders on the US going for that earlier instead of the Skipper who has unfortunately been drunk since the race started.

The UK on handicap (crew loss per country capita) so not a line honours winner (handicap far more relevant for comparisons not shown below) is the bookmakers favourite. Crossing the thumb line or Peak Crew Loss for big boats is projected for June.

Lets see how the race transpires but the current yacht tracker is very instructive.

Daily Crew Fatality Rates (US normally 100 crew deaths per day for the flu)

EUvqE1uXkAASIwM.jpeg.7fe5bc822c359655465b314bfb2c6e04.jpeg

So, a chart of deaths per day, which is not labeled as normalized to anything other than a starting point shows that most of the developed world is in a pretty tight pack. 

When you correct for population, either by dividing US by 5 or aggregating Spain, France Italy and Germany you get a different look. 

 

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5 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

So, a chart of deaths per day, which is not labeled as normalized to anything other than a starting point shows that most of the developed world is in a pretty tight pack. 

When you correct for population, either by dividing US by 5 or aggregating Spain, France Italy and Germany you get a different look. 

I did mention that Lion.... overhead zoooming sound.

47 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The UK on handicap (crew loss per country capita) so not a line honours winner (handicap far more relevant for comparisons not shown below) is the bookmakers favourite.

 

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6 minutes ago, 17mika said:

This is probably the dumbest post ever on SA.

I can tell that from Lombardy, where we already had 8k+ fucking dead people (and real number may be 15k dead people … and I know a few!), which is what you're gonna have in every US state if you do not act accordingly. 

This is not about banning fucking sailing, this is blocking people from moving, from getting close to each other, from using the same restrooms and bathrooms, from touching stuff that has been just touched by others, etc.

 

 

Calling your post the dumbest post ever on SA is a bit of a reach, both in harshness and in self aggrandizement, there are many contenders... 

You miss that other than in certain urban regions, which are having high rates of infection, the US is NOT on the track of Lombardy or any other part of Mediterranean Europe. Interpersonal distance and "soccer mom" germophobia is a factor here. Granted there are idiots who cluster, by religion, ethnicity, age and probably other factors. 

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Maryland has confusing and contradictory rules unevenly applied. Parks are open. I can in theory drive to the club and get a canoe off the rack and go out, or a kayak, or a SUP. I cannot get a Laser off the same rack though :unsure:

I cannot go out in any boat, even by myself, unless I am crabbing or fishing. I can though take 9 PAYING PASSENGERS out on my boat to crab or fish. Except apparently the DNR has on their own decided that crabbing and fishing are not actually allowed - sometimes - and according to some posts on Hulltruth the USCG has been suspending the licenses of charter boat captains to prevent them from taking people out :unsure:

Either ban boating or not, quit with the half ass confusing bullshit already :angry:

* meanwhile - at the grocery store - no wipes, no employees using ANY PPE, no hand sanitizer at the register, NOTHING. My odds of catching or spreading the virus are 10,000,000 times higher buying milk than sitting on my boat by myself.

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2 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Yup, and yet you show a plot with a headline that tells a different story. 

Really headline is wrong. Go have a lie down mate.

7 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Daily Crew Fatality Rates (US normally 100 crew deaths per day for the flu)

 

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14 minutes ago, 17mika said:

This is probably the dumbest post ever on SA.

I can tell that from Lombardy, where we already had 8k+ fucking dead people (and real number may be 15k dead people … and I know a few!), which is what you're gonna have in every US state if you do not act accordingly. 

This is not about banning fucking sailing, this is blocking people from moving, from getting close to each other, from using the same restrooms and bathrooms, from touching stuff that has been just touched by others, etc.

 

 

Thr supermarket will end us then

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5 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

So, a chart of deaths per day, which is not labeled as normalized to anything other than a starting point shows that most of the developed world is in a pretty tight pack. 

When you correct for population, either by dividing US by 5 or aggregating Spain, France Italy and Germany you get a different look. 

 

When the rest of the world is sailing in August and you’re  in heavy lock down you will realise what idiots you are. It is not about sailing it is about not travelling and not putting anyone else at risk. 

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8 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Thr supermarket will end us then

^

This!

Give everyone a couple days to stock up and close EVERYTHING for 3 weeks, not just SOME things.

 

Gotta disagree here-  get grocery store employees ppe, test test test, order by telephone or on line,  grocery pick up at the curb,  mandatory masks outside.

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13 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Calling your post the dumbest post ever on SA is a bit of a reach, both in harshness and in self aggrandizement, there are many contenders... 

You miss that other than in certain urban regions, which are having high rates of infection, the US is NOT on the track of Lombardy or any other part of Mediterranean Europe. Interpersonal distance and "soccer mom" germophobia is a factor here. Granted there are idiots who cluster, by religion, ethnicity, age and probably other factors. 

Sorry for being a bit harsh.

But I am really worried, in Italy we got unprepared cause we did not know the virus was out there. and I am sick when I hear that people is underestimating the thing, when they should have all information available now

 

Michele

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53 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

So, a chart of deaths per day, which is not labeled as normalized to anything other than a starting point shows that most of the developed world is in a pretty tight pack. 

When you correct for population, either by dividing US by 5 or aggregating Spain, France Italy and Germany you get a different look. 

 

49 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I did mention that Lion.... overhead zoooming sound.

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

The UK on handicap (crew loss per country capita) so not a line honours winner (handicap far more relevant for comparisons not shown below) is the bookmakers favourite.

47 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Yup, and yet you show a plot with a headline that tells a different story. 

 

45 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Really headline is wrong. Go have a lie down mate.

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Daily Crew Fatality Rates (US normally 100 crew deaths per day for the flu)

Here you go Lion US normalised per capita for both case and fatalities rate just to keep you fucking happy.

You might want to rethink your;  "the US is NOT on the track of Lombardy or any other part of  Mediterranean Europe."

Turnip.

PS. And added US States to also compare to 35% trend lines of other countries.

IMG_20200406_023310.jpg

IMG_20200406_023223.jpg

IMG_20200406_025930.jpg

 

IMG_20200406_030515.jpg

Edited by jack_sparrow
PS Added. US States to compare to 35% trend line
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36 minutes ago, Amati said:

Gotta disagree here-  get grocery store employees ppe, test test test, order by telephone or on line,  grocery pick up at the curb,  mandatory masks outside.

Do the maths. Not feasible in highly populated areas.

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On 4/4/2020 at 6:03 AM, AClass USA 230 said:

Hmmm, this is interesting and I appreciate all view points. So far, my wife and I have indulged in the following activities since Louisiana issued Stay At Home guidelines (not mandatory yet) (Gov. John Bell Edwards still encourages people to engage in outdoor activities but advises using common sense and exercise social distancing. The guidelines also discourage gatherings of over 10 people and to exercise social distancing if over 10).

We go to the grocery store and keep our distance and wash our hands (frequently).

My wife spent 3 days last week with a close friend bird watching in north Louisiana (they are avid birders) and they took their own food with them and they only came into proximity of others if they stopped for gas and misc supplies (mainly water). They made the decision to go since neither for the last month have had any sign of a cough or fever. The hotels they stayed at for two nights were well setup for the current guidelines and were happy to have them as customers. They felt safe the entire trip while exercising vigilance and awareness.

I’ve done three rides on my road bike in the country by myself. I stopped on two of them on the way back and got a post ride coffee going through a drive up.

I go stand up paddle boarding on a river by myself, the launch is a 1/4 mile from our house.

My wife and I are going to the dry storage of our yacht club this afternoon and hoisting our Sprint 750 tri in for a sunset sail, just the two of us. We’ll bring provisions from home and maintain our social distancing if we run into anyone else at the dry storage area.

So are we selfish and irresponsible ( I’ve not had any close contact for the last month with any friends and my wife has only had contact with her birding friend)? I don’t think so (but I’m sure others do and so I’m ready to called whatever). I think we are using common sense while being considerate and careful of others.

While I’m chuckling at Scott being fed a bit of his own medicine, I’m sympathetic to his frustration but he lives in a much more population dense area than I do.

Your missing the boat, being outside has risks, and  if you hurt yourself you could put other people in harm's way ,  and yes you can hurt yourself indoors, but most important, bragging how you are coping in a blissful world is not considering the ramifications, or the current pain others are dealing with.

Go enjoy yourself, but advertising will inspire others to do the same, who may not be as safe

Best to shut up,

Ps,

premature death is a horrible pain for the living

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13 minutes ago, multihuler said:

Your missing the boat, being outside has risks, and  if you hurt yourself you could put other people in harm's way ,  and yes you can hurt yourself indoors, but most important, bragging how you are coping in a blissful world is not considering the ramifications, or the current pain others are dealing with.

Go enjoy yourself, but advertising will inspire others to do the same, who may not be as safe

Best to shut up,

Ps,

premature death is a horrible pain for the living

Awesome point use your influence so safe lives. The model is simple, people don’t stay home, the restrictions become stricter. 

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10 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sorry don't know the detail. For those inclined claim sailing a religion?

Many Coronavirus sceptics keep banging on about the absence of data. Here is a great scientific trial control group to determine whether or not God exists.

EU1i_trWsAEPKWT.jpeg

If you want to meet your maker, a heroic dose of heroin is probably a more pleasant way to go. 

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2 hours ago, Amati said:

Gotta disagree here-  get grocery store employees ppe, test test test, order by telephone or on line,  grocery pick up at the curb,  mandatory masks outside.

I think the clerk checking me out at the Pak & Save the other day had better PPE than my wife used to wear delivering babies. And a permanently installed plexiglass shield that looked like it could stop a bullet.

Of course, this is in NZ, not the US.

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8 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I think the clerk checking me out at the Pak & Save the other day had better PPE than my wife used to wear delivering babies. And a permanently installed plexiglass shield that looked like it could stop a bullet.

Of course, this is in NZ, not the US.

This /\

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Just now, fastyacht said:

We have plexiglass shields for the cashiers too. Connecticut.

We have them in Canada as well,

We also have a population that's happy to stay home, to help stop the spread, for the good of the entire population.

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1 hour ago, Tink said:

Awesome point use your influence so safe lives. The model is simple, people don’t stay home, the restrictions become stricter. 

And the longer they don't stay home now, the longer we will have to stay home down the road to sort it.

It really is like Kindergarten, where the whole class suffers because a few spastic kids won't listen.

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9 minutes ago, Keith said:
12 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

We have plexiglass shields for the cashiers too. Connecticut.

We have them in Canada as well,

We also have a population that's happy to stay home, to help stop the spread, for the good of the entire population.

There are a few problematic people in NZ but most are cooperating and caring for others.

The government here is fairly specific and aggressive about it in places.

For example, here in Whangarei there is a 4 Km walking trail called the Hatea Loop. It runs out of down town, across the Hatea river on a bridge, back along the other side of the river and back into town. For the last few days there has been a cop stationed near the bridge at the far end of the loop, stopping people and telling them not to cross the bridge because it's too far from home. He's also asking people where they are from, because I think people drive here to do the walk and they want to stop that.

When a couple of cruisers asked how close to home they should be staying, the policeman told them "400 meters." Very specific. And not very far. The bridge is almost 1Km from the slip we're in, it's an easy walk and it doesn't go by any residences, though it does go by a couple of marinas, businesses, and a park, which are all closed.

But the messaging isn't getting everywhere consistently, and they've clarified it again.

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47 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I think the clerk checking me out at the Pak & Save the other day had better PPE than my wife used to wear delivering babies. And a permanently installed plexiglass shield that looked like it could stop a bullet.

Of course, this is in NZ, not the US.

You’re lucky to be down there.  One grocery store here will take orders by email, and then deliver them to the car in the parking lot with mask and gloves.  When they see we’ve arrived in mask and gloves, and stay in the car while they put the groceries in the trunk, they are grateful beyond belief.  The future does arrive some places before others.

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23 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Wow. 400 meters. That would be me walking in a circle on my own land.

400 meters does seem a bit extreme.

Especially when you consider there are no residences with 400m of the bridge in question...

The other thing that's a little silly is it isn't about keeping to one side of the river, either, as we have to cross the river to get to the grocery store.

1693905258_hateabridge.JPG.4c87089750d831acba369778eb7ef130.JPG

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That an individual or family leaves their place of “shelter” does NOT expose another individual or family to SARS-COV-2. The only way that another can be exposed is by leaving their place of “shelter” and coming into contact with someone or something that carries the virus. Therefore one individual or family has no business telling another individual or family to stay indoors, or vice versa. 

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1 minute ago, Veeger said:

That an individual or family leaves their place of “shelter” does NOT expose another individual or family to SARS-COV-2. The only way that another can be exposed is by leaving their place of “shelter” and coming into contact with someone or something that carries the virus. Therefore one individual or family has no business telling another individual or family to stay indoors, or vice versa. 

Simply leaving the house doesn't expose you, no.

However...

- When you leave, there's no guarantee you won't be exposed by some subsequent action you take.

- Since asymptomatic people can carry it, there's no guarantee when you leave that you are clear and won't expose others with your subsequent actions.

That's the whole point of reducing/minimizing contact.

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25 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Simply leaving the house doesn't expose you, no.

However...

- When you leave, there's no guarantee you won't be exposed by some subsequent action you take.

- Since asymptomatic people can carry it, there's no guarantee when you leave that you are clear and won't expose others with your subsequent actions.

That's the whole point of reducing/minimizing contact.

Of course!  But this is wishful thinking!  Fantasy!

How long do you expect everyone to stay under effective house arrest?  For what crime are we being imprisoned?

When (if?) the curve is flattened and the ICU's are saved, what next?  Life just goes back to' normal'?  The 'curve' explodes again.  So I guess we just lock down again? How many times do we do this?  Do you think that you'll still even be able to find your bread, eggs, milk, chicken in 6 months?  Do you think that even after we go back to 'normal', folks will just resume what they've always done and go have a beer at a bar and get some wings?  Do you think there will even be a bar to get that beer and those wings?

Use some common sense instead of being a hostage to fricken fear.  Yes, some folks will die.  Might even be me.  (65, asthmatic)  Unless and until there is a vaccine (and btw, we haven't ever found a vaccine for HIV or the common cold so there's really not any guarantee that a vaccine is imminent within a year or two) we must expect that each and every one of us will get the virus at some point.  Flattening the curve doesn't do a damn thing beyond (supposedly) saving the ICU beds.  (fyi, once you're in ICU, it's pretty well over anyway--no thanks)

What government or medical system will there be when no one is paying taxes (sales, income, ???).  We're focusing on the immediate scariness of a greater risk of folks dying.  Think past that and tell me what we will have afterwards....

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6 minutes ago, Veeger said:

That wou

Of course!  But this is wishful thinking!  Fantasy!

How long do you expect everyone to stay under effective house arrest?  For what crime are we being imprisoned?

When (if?) the curve is flattened and the ICU's are saved, what next?  Life just goes back to' normal'?  The 'curve' explodes again.  So I guess we just lock down again? How many times do we do this?  Do you think that you'll still even be able to find your bread, eggs, milk, chicken in 6 months?  Do you think that even after we go back to 'normal', folks will just resume what they've always done and go have a beer at a bar and get some wings?  Do you think there will even be a bar to get that beer and those wings?

Use some common sense instead of being a hostage to fricken fear.  Yes, some folks will die.  Might even be me.  (65, asthmatic)  Unless and until there is a vaccine (and btw, we haven't ever found a vaccine for HIV or the common cold so there's really not any guarantee that a vaccine is imminent within a year or two) we must expect that each and every one of us will get the virus at some point.  Flattening the curve doesn't do a damn thing beyond (supposedly) saving the ICU beds.  (fyi, once you're in ICU, it's pretty well over anyway--no thanks)

What government or medical system will there be when no one is paying taxes (sales, income, ???).  We're focusing on the immediate scariness of a greater risk of folks dying.  Think past that and tell me what we will have afterwards....

I can't envision what we will have afterwords since I am not prescient. We have flu vaccines, this is not unstoppable. What I've read so far suggests when we have a vaccine it will join the regular crop of seasonal flu that we have. People will get it, some will die. But we will develop some herd immunity to it and vaccines which will cut the risk bacl.

What I can envision is what happens if we don't flatten the curve. It doesn't take much imagination, you just have to look at Italy.

ICU beds aren't the commodity, it's simply being able to deliver enough care to everyone that gets sick at the same time.

If a million people get sick all at once, you have to triage care, ventilators, etc. More people die because we don't have enough medical providers, hospitals, and space to treat them. If a million people get sick over six or twelve months, it still sucks ass, but you WILL have better results and lower fatalities since more people will get care and fewer will be denied care because they are low-priority by triage guidelines.

You may choose to not give a shit for you, I prefer not to give that choice to you for my family.

Like it or not, we're social animals who live in groups. If one or to individuals take it upon themselves to put the whole group at risk, the rest of the group may choose to respond in a way those individuals don't like.

Unless you're a hermit who chooses to live in a cave, grow his own food, and never see people, you've agreed to become part of society and accepted the social contract that entails. That requires occasional acts of selflessness for the good of the community.

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25 minutes ago, Veeger said:

 

Of course!  But this is wishful thinking!  Fantasy!

How long do you expect everyone to stay under effective house arrest?  For what crime are we being imprisoned?

When (if?) the curve is flattened and the ICU's are saved, what next?  Life just goes back to' normal'?  The 'curve' explodes again.  So I guess we just lock down again? How many times do we do this?  Do you think that you'll still even be able to find your bread, eggs, milk, chicken in 6 months?  Do you think that even after we go back to 'normal', folks will just resume what they've always done and go have a beer at a bar and get some wings?  Do you think there will even be a bar to get that beer and those wings?

Use some common sense instead of being a hostage to fricken fear.  Yes, some folks will die.  Might even be me.  (65, asthmatic)  Unless and until there is a vaccine (and btw, we haven't ever found a vaccine for HIV or the common cold so there's really not any guarantee that a vaccine is imminent within a year or two) we must expect that each and every one of us will get the virus at some point.  Flattening the curve doesn't do a damn thing beyond (supposedly) saving the ICU beds.  (fyi, once you're in ICU, it's pretty well over anyway--no thanks)

What government or medical system will there be when no one is paying taxes (sales, income, ???).  We're focusing on the immediate scariness of a greater risk of folks dying.  Think past that and tell me what we will have afterwards....

Wow,

Another person that just doesn't get it.

Stay home, stay safe.

Don't be a spreader.

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All 'feel good', 'I'm more noble than you', Bullshit.  We do not have the luxury of thinking simplistically.  Your kids will live a very different life in a world of 30-50% unemployment and unrest.  I AM thinking of them, my own kids and my fellow citizens.

You're still clinging to 'hopefulness' as a solution.  If we continue with our current approach, you won't get home to see your kids this year or your folks and there will be no one to buy your boat for six figures because no one is/will be allowed to use their boat.  (sorry, not trying to pick on you because there will be a whole lot of others like you, me included, who won't see our folks across the country or have a job or business to support ourselves)

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1 minute ago, Keith said:

Wow,

Another person that just doesn't get it.

Stay home, stay safe.

Don't be a spreader.

Don't be a mindless 'sheeple'!  I"m not sick so I can't be a spreader.

 

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Just now, Veeger said:

Don't be a mindless 'sheeple'!  I"m not sick so I can't be a spreader.

 

So you clearly understand that anyone can show no symptoms for up to a couple of weeks, and still be a spreader ?

Stay home, stay safe

Don't be a spreader

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Yes, of course.  You do realize that this aspect is what makes the whole exercise pretty useless, right?  Are we all to stay inside until there is not another case in the whole wide world?  Cuz that's the only solution.  Think, man!

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25 minutes ago, Veeger said:

All 'feel good', 'I'm more noble than you', Bullshit.  We do not have the luxury of thinking simplistically.  Your kids will live a very different life in a world of 30-50% unemployment and unrest.  I AM thinking of them, my own kids and my fellow citizens.

You're still clinging to 'hopefulness' as a solution.  If we continue with our current approach, you won't get home to see your kids this year or your folks and there will be no one to buy your boat for six figures because no one is/will be allowed to use their boat.  (sorry, not trying to pick on you because there will be a whole lot of others like you, me included, who won't see our folks across the country or have a job or business to support ourselves)

Simply put...I'd rather not see my parents for a year than miss their funerals this year.

Money can be made again, boats can be replaced. We'll be alright financially.

People...not so much.

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21 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Yes, of course.  You do realize that this aspect is what makes the whole exercise pretty useless, right?  Are we all to stay inside until there is not another case in the whole wide world?  Cuz that's the only solution.  Think, man!

No one is suggesting that. Not at all.

But we are suggesting you stay inside so we don't swamp our healthcare system and kill people unnecessarily. That we stay inside until we have some control over the spread, some built up immunity, and a handle on containment.

COVID-19 is never going to go away, but we can try to minimize how many people it kills until we're able to handle it better.

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Maybe a covid 19 injection might set you on a early path to be unlocked from your prison and provide enlightenment. Just don't go to the doctor or hospital. They don't have the supplies to take care of you right now. The world will change and we will adapt. Our health is a luxury at the moment. This could be our generations depression. There are a lot of downsides. Most of us are looking forward to being productive again unless your half way intelligent then your busy now and not a drag on the rest of us.

 

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32 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Don't be a mindless 'sheeple'!  I"m not sick so I can't be a spreader.

 

CDC director, Dr. Robert Redfield,

One of the [pieces of] information that we have pretty much confirmed now is that a significant number of individuals that are infected actually remain asymptomatic. That may be as many as 25%. That's important, because now you have individuals that may not have any symptoms that can contribute to transmission, and we have learned that in fact they do contribute to transmission.

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6 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

But we are suggesting you stay inside so we don't swamp our healthcare system and kill people unnecessarily. That we stay inside until we have some control over the spread, some built up immunity, and a handle on containment.

COVID-19 is never going to go away, but we can try to minimize how many people it kills until we're able to handle it better.

Nice in theory, but that's a pretty indefinite period of time.  So how long do you think that might take?  Fauci says 12-18 months. As a society, we will NOT survive a lockdown for that duration. 

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16 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Nice in theory, but that's a pretty indefinite period of time.  So how long do you think that might take?  Fauci says 12-18 months. As a society, we will NOT survive a lockdown for that duration. 

Why don't you give it a month or two before you consign my parents to the death heap, eh?

We don't know how this will play out, I'd rather not start it by giving up.

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5 hours ago, Tink said:

Throw away the key

Apparently he rents now? Or uses club Harbor 20s. They would not let him take it out. The last time I followed him he was getting a Flying Tiger so I am far behind the times.  Heck I remember when everyone here was bashing them for having keels laid down at angles during manufacture. 

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

Don't be a mindless 'sheeple'!  I"m not sick so I can't be a spreader.

If you touch an infected area and shake some ones hand you can infect him without being infected yourself. Do you really think the first person knew he was sick when he did spread it ?
Damn, even cats and tigers and dogs  are catching it.

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

Yes, of course.  You do realize that this aspect is what makes the whole exercise pretty useless, right?  Are we all to stay inside until there is not another case in the whole wide world?  Cuz that's the only solution.  Think, man!

You, sir, need to inform your self of the actual situation and do some thinking on your own before you tell others to think.  Man.

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56 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

We don't have to shelter until there are no more cases. We have to shelter until new cases drops enough that we can contact trace and test everyone with a fever, everyone they contacted and key groups like nursing home employees  

This ^^.

One thing NZ has done very well - with a small population and an isolated land mass, of course - is contact trace every case they can.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases/covid-19-current-cases-details

 

image.png.9dea241fca2e5036ff92c7b15a5233b9.png

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On 4/3/2020 at 8:42 PM, Editor said:

The port of San Diego just announced that recreational boating in San Diego bay is prohibited, effective today. This is totally unnecessary, a typical overreaction, and I am super pissed.

Here’s why it is ridiculous. Here is their previous policy:

Consistent with state orders regarding recreation, it’s allowed so long as you can maintain a safe social distance of six feet from people who aren’t part of your household. Per the state stay-at-home order, non-essential gatherings of any size are not allowed. Everyone has the responsibility to “Flatten the COVID-19 Curve” by maintaining a social distance of 6 feet or more when recreating in the outdoors, and staying home if they are sick. If you cannot maintain social distancing, you need to go elsewhere or return home.

What is wrong with that? It is near perfect. But no, the dopes on Port board had to go and fuck it up and install draconian measures that do almost NOTHING to keep people safe, but do EVERYTHING to piss of the thousands of boaters here. Talk about government overreach.

And so are people going sailing tomorrow supposed to know about this late in the date horseshit announcement?  What, are they going to ticket people? Impound their boats? Arrest them?

Guess what? I’m going sailing tomorrow anyway. Arrest me, bitches. I need some good content. – ed.

What kind of  total and complete piece of shit posts something like this, watches 160 posts follow up and says not a fucking thing. You are trolling covid to generate traffic on your shitty fucking 2 bit sailing advertising scam? A-hole.

 

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

Nice in theory, but that's a pretty indefinite period of time.  So how long do you think that might take?  Fauci says 12-18 months. As a society, we will NOT survive a lockdown for that duration. 

No Fuici nor any expert of note has said or implied a 12 - 18 month lock-down. The first wave has a duration of around 3 months. You view while it may be wrong in the eyes of many it is your view. That's fine and should be respected.

However when you start spreading lies to sustain your view you then become a lying ignorant cunt.

Take your pick. 

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7 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

ICU beds aren't the commodity, it's simply being able to deliver enough care to everyone that gets sick at the same time.

BJ hope your kids OK. You like me we are in good places but see them in places you rather they weren't.

Mate the virus isn't what kills it is ICU bed capacity being swamped. ICU is not just a bed but piped Infrastructure, equipment like ventilators etc and the trained ICU staff. The normal ratio is over 4 staff per bed per day. Ventilator training is not an afternoon seminar.

They can't access all ICU capacity as there other cases like accidents etc and average virus stay in ICU is 10 days versus 4 days severe flu. Around 10% hospital bad flu admissions die.

Quick maths 

20% cases require hospitalisation and half of those require ICU. The majority over age of 50 and or with existing conditions. Current ICU admissions under 50 years small but greater than projected.  

Once ICU/vent capacity is reached the elderly will be triaged out first, some won't even get hospital access like those in nursing homes. This is occuring now in UK. 

Stay safe in NZ mate. US is not in a great place compared to elsewhere.

IMG_20200406_023310.jpg.e3d8ee262818040c604f2af3fe1bb660.jpgIMG_20200406_023223.jpg.a80ded20380825f74d00c1f7962f764a.jpg

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2 hours ago, vikram said:

What kind of  total and complete piece of shit posts something like this, watches 160 posts follow up and says not a fucking thing. You are trolling covid to generate traffic on your shitty fucking 2 bit sailing advertising scam? A-hole.

 

Call it a public service. I'm sure many 3K+ views came to this thread with a similiar view and it is now been altered after reading. 

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17 hours ago, Nettles said:

I think the major problem people who want to be out on the water are having (including me) is they fail to see the rationale behind the prohibition.  "Because I told you so" just doesn't fly with most adults of almost any nationality.  The best argument I have seen in this thread has been the one of boating being a non-essential trip out of your presumably safe area.  Most of us are hopefully skilled enough not to require the intervention of rescue personnel and hopefully responsible enough to avoid exposing others to a possible infection,  But what about accidents?  Inadvertant contacts?  Contact with some asshole clam cop with an authority complex who breaks your balls then goes on to infect 20 other people that day?  How many infections or deaths are an acceptable number for what, if you examine it honestly and thoroughly, is a pretty selfish reason?

I am very fortunate to have a pretty unique situation which allows me to fish and shellfish in my shitbox powerboat with zero contact with anyone or anything I don't touch on a regular basis and is not on private property, and no, I'm not going to elaborate.  Trust me, I've thought it through.  Worst case scenarios include breakdowns, crippling injury or me seperated from the boat.  While I can self rescue from the former, and am willing to suffer the consequences of the latter two, there is nothing I can do to prevent the good samaritan or asshole clam cop from rescuing my dusty ass and exposing themselves to the possible risk I pose.  Is this an acceptable risk?  When I start to worry about eating it will be for sure, but by virtue of some critical thought inspired by some of the comments above I'm thinking that's the only exception.  Certainly, floating around on my 4 knot (on a good day) shitbox sailboat does not meet the requisite criteria.

Reducing strain on rescue services is one of the reasons given for not/minimizing boating in Australia

Considering who makes up the volunteer rescue services, usually retired folks it seems fair given this cohort faces the worst consequences from C19 

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7 hours ago, Veeger said:

Nice in theory, but that's a pretty indefinite period of time.  So how long do you think that might take?  Fauci says 12-18 months. As a society, we will NOT survive a lockdown for that duration. 

Veeger I always thought you were one of the saner ones around here, obviously not. STAY AT HOME!

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8 hours ago, Veeger said:

Nice in theory, but that's a pretty indefinite period of time.  So how long do you think that might take?  Fauci says 12-18 months. As a society, we will NOT survive a lockdown for that duration. 

Even you must accept that without lockdown there will be considerably more deaths.

Those deaths will be key people in our society, Doctors, Nurses, Delivery guys, Bus drivers (3 bus drivers dead in the UK) If you don’t go out these people live 

Reducing the number of people YOU have contact with prevents deaths.

The rest of us can adapt and find creative ways to work that keeps the economy working. We are lucky that technology allows a very large proportion of society to work from home. 

It sounds very harsh but an individual’s leisure time doesn’t factor into this. 
 

the editor is just winding you all up so he gets lots of traffic on his site to keep the ad sales up. 

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23 hours ago, Amati said:

I do want to know if being in a car is as good as a mask....

 

I'd guess not. unless you have your windows up and a cabin air filter that is N95 or better.  The standard cabin air filters are usually just dust filters and cars are not know to be hermetically sealed. I'm thinking a nice day, following a few cars with the windows open, someone sneezes out the window in front.... you drive thru the un-seen/un-felt fog o' disease someone just snot-rocketed into the air-stream... happy motoring. 

This is why I'm avoiding going anyplace not 100% required of me to go and why we all are being told to shelter in place.  The virus can live for 4 days on a hard metal surface, 24 hours on porous (like cardboard) and 4 hours air-suspended.  You just need to pass thru an area with the airborne, active virus to have a good chance of getting infected.  This is how I got quarantined. some fuck-wit of a contractor went to work with the sniffles and didn't think anything of it.  Now 75% of my team is quarantined, leaving the one guy you don't want onsite doing work as the only guy that can go onsite to do work.

Should we really be using the word "quarantine", if we're not in the Quarante region of France (like champagne)?  Shouldn't this be "sparkling isolation" for the rest of the world?

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16 minutes ago, linaszuk said:

I'd guess not. unless you have your windows up and a cabin air filter that is N95 or better.  The standard cabin air filters are usually just dust filters and cars are not know to be hermetically sealed. I'm thinking a nice day, following a few cars with the windows open, someone sneezes out the window in front.... you drive thru the un-seen/un-felt fog o' disease someone just snot-rocketed into the air-stream... happy motoring. 

This is why I'm avoiding going anyplace not 100% required of me to go and why we all are being told to shelter in place.  The virus can live for 4 days on a hard metal surface, 24 hours on porous (like cardboard) and 4 hours air-suspended.  You just need to pass thru an area with the airborne, active virus to have a good chance of getting infected.  This is how I got quarantined. some fuck-wit of a contractor went to work with the sniffles and didn't think anything of it.  Now 75% of my team is quarantined, leaving the one guy you don't want onsite doing work as the only guy that can go onsite to do work.

Should we really be using the word "quarantine", if we're not in the Quarante region of France (like champagne)?  Shouldn't this be "sparkling isolation" for the rest of the world?

Still isolation?

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with 4 times more apparent infections than china
+ 3 times more apparent deaths than china you'd
think scot <and more americans> would be a little
more circumspect about the current situation +
maybe stay home?

and to those arguing about 100's or 1000's new cases per
day in the US, today's new cases figure is currently 2300

don't be like the spanish asshole who tried to drive into
france to buy cigarettes, got turned back at the border,
then tried to walk across, got lost + stuck in a river + phoned
for help.  you can imagine how fucking impressed the rescue
services were to have to deal with cunts like that

idiot rescued

 

stay safe

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18 hours ago, Veeger said:

All 'feel good', 'I'm more noble than you', Bullshit.  We do not have the luxury of thinking simplistically.  Your kids will live a very different life in a world of 30-50% unemployment and unrest.  I AM thinking of them, my own kids and my fellow citizens.

You're still clinging to 'hopefulness' as a solution.  If we continue with our current approach, you won't get home to see your kids this year or your folks and there will be no one to buy your boat for six figures because no one is/will be allowed to use their boat.  (sorry, not trying to pick on you because there will be a whole lot of others like you, me included, who won't see our folks across the country or have a job or business to support ourselves)

You’re right. ‘If we continue with our current approach’ all that will happen and more.

The current approach, of course, being a half assed attitude towards full and total lockdown.

You wanna do the dance again? Gonna have to drop the hammer.

The hammer is not a vaccine, it is getting the virus to an acceptably low level so as to mitigate spread or increased spread and be able to track it. Right now lockdown and social distancing are the only tools available. Future tools might be vaccines, anti virals, or even immunity passports.

If this is too simplistic for you I apologize and I’ve got to run. I need to video chat with my sister in CT whose got it. We skirt around certain issues and try to stay positive, the main one being that my Dad has months to live and she probably won’t get to see him again as he’s up here in Canada.

So when I for a fleeting moment think about not being able to visit my boat this year, or even that it’s value might’ve dropped like a led zeppelin, I couldn’t give a flying fuck about it. I hope the bees build an even bigger nest in the anchor well than they ever have.

 

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1 hour ago, AfricanForedeckUnion said:

with 4 times more apparent infections than china + 3 times more apparent deaths than china you'd think scot <and more americans> would be a little more circumspect about the current situation + maybe stay home?

and to those arguing about 100's or 1000's new cases per day in the US, today's new cases figure is currently 2300 15,410

don't be like the spanish asshole who tried to drive into france to buy cigarettes, got turned back at the border, then tried to walk across, got lost + stuck in a river + phoned for help.  you can imagine how fucking impressed the rescue services were to have to deal with cunts like that

idiot rescued

 

stay safe

the number just jumped on the race tracker

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1 hour ago, AfricanForedeckUnion said:

the number just jumped on the race tracker

 

2 hours ago, AfricanForedeckUnion said:

with 4 times more apparent infections than china + 3 times more apparent deaths than china you'd think scot <and more americans> would be a little more circumspect about the current situation + maybe stay home?

and to those arguing about 100's or 1000's new cases per day in the US, today's new cases figure is currently 2300 15,410 19,741

don't be like the spanish asshole who tried to drive into france to buy cigarettes, got turned back at the border, then tried to walk across, got lost + stuck in a river + phoned
for help.  you can imagine how fucking impressed the rescue services were to have to deal with cunts like that

idiot rescued

 

stay safe

 

and again. 

i'm hoping this is as a result of increasied testing reflecting past undetected infections + not a real day on day increase.
but either way, these are serious numbers...

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On 4/5/2020 at 12:43 PM, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

 

 

Here you go Lion US normalised per capita for both case and fatalities rate just to keep you fucking happy.

You might want to rethink your;  "the US is NOT on the track of Lombardy or any other part of  Mediterranean Europe."

Turnip.

PS. And added US States to also compare to 35% trend lines of other countries.

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IMG_20200406_025930.jpg

 

IMG_20200406_030515.jpg

Yup, NY skews the distribution, similar demographics, genetics and density to Mediterranean Europe so no surprise and use of public transit systems to further spread contagion. The efforts of the well heeled to flee the city for other places is going to be an interesting phenomena in a few months, Those who had vacation places for the most part have already gone, much to the dismay of the locals. 

We left Santa Clara County CA back on 3/17 on a pre-planned trip to bring a pallet of our wine to Myrtle Beach. (Horry County SC) Driving cross country on I-40 was interesting in the differences of distance and handling. 

 

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On 4/5/2020 at 2:25 PM, B.J. Porter said:

And the longer they don't stay home now, the longer we will have to stay home down the road to sort it.

It really is like Kindergarten, where the whole class suffers because a few spastic kids won't listen.

made me shoot coffee out my nose.  "spastic kids" ha!

 

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While everyone is occupying the moral high ground, I think we should take this a few steps further by doing the following in next 12 months:

-reduce gun violence by supporting strict gun control

-ban all tobacco products

-fight greedy corporate interests forcing processed food and sugar down our throats

-support organic, pesticide free food

-reduce your personal carbon foot print by 50%

-elect officials that see healthcare as a human right, not just for those who can afford it

-support affordable housing

-support and increase public mental health services and facilities

-support universal basic income

-vote to get trumpty dumpty out of office

My guess if we support those topics, overwhelming we could save a shit ton more lives than this pandemic will kill.

 

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3 hours ago, B dock said:

While everyone is occupying the moral high ground, I think we should take this a few steps further by doing the following in next 12 months:

-reduce gun violence by supporting strict gun control

-ban all tobacco products

-fight greedy corporate interests forcing processed food and sugar down our throats

-support organic, pesticide free food

-reduce your personal carbon foot print by 50%

-elect officials that see healthcare as a human right, not just for those who can afford it

-support affordable housing

-support and increase public mental health services and facilities

-support universal basic income

-vote to get trumpty dumpty out of office

My guess if we support those topics, overwhelming we could save a shit ton more lives than this pandemic will kill.

 

Or, we could just throw the #resistance out with the medical waste and get on with life. Be a lot better outcome, even for those deniers who reject the science of economics, as represented in the laws of Thermodynamics 

You can't create increase wealth by collecting it from other people. (equilibrium) 

You can't create wealth by voting to redistribute  it (Conservation of energy)

You can't get something for nothing, everytime the government does something there are transaction costs (Entropy increases) 

Left to the socialists, all economies decay over time and you can't collect any useful fees or taxes (Entropy of a zero energy system is near zero) 

#science #TANSTAAFL

 

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3 hours ago, B dock said:

While everyone is occupying the moral high ground, I think we should take this a few steps further by doing the following in next 12 months:

-reduce gun violence by supporting strict gun control

-ban all tobacco products

-fight greedy corporate interests forcing processed food and sugar down our throats

-support organic, pesticide free food

-reduce your personal carbon foot print by 50%

-elect officials that see healthcare as a human right, not just for those who can afford it

-support affordable housing

-support and increase public mental health services and facilities

-support universal basic income

-vote to get trumpty dumpty out of office

My guess if we support those topics, overwhelming we could save a shit ton more lives than this pandemic will kill.

 

 If you can get past the American gun issue, the rest will come together like apple pie and ice cream.

Good luck.

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10 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Or, we could just throw the #resistance out with the medical waste and get on with life. Be a lot better outcome, even for those deniers who reject the science of economics, as represented in the laws of Thermodynamics 

Economics is not really a science. And your use of thermodynamics is silly. For example: Much wealth is presently idle in that it is not being used for any productive purpose.  AT least in any way that benefits society or even the GDP. The mere threat of redistribution would move it back into a GDP use beneficial to society. Likely increasing total wealth. So would redistributing it to someone who is more motivated to create new wealth rather than just sit on the porch waiting for the sunset.

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8 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Economics is not really a science. And your use of thermodynamics is silly. For example: Much wealth is presently idle in that it is not being used for any productive purpose.  AT least in any way that benefits society or even the GDP. The mere threat of redistribution would move it back into a GDP use beneficial to society. Likely increasing total wealth. So would redistributing it to someone who is more motivated to create new wealth rather than just sit on the porch waiting for the sunset.

My use of Thermo was forced and I agree silly, as Economics has pertubation where the participants are reacting to psychological rather than merely physical inputs. The Nobel is awarded annually for economics and much as with the Peace prize is equally debased due to politics. When you say wealth is idle, are you suggesting that it's in cash sitting in safes? No doubt there's some in that form, and/or in precious metals etc rather than invested in capital that increases productivity. What's more idle than the Federal Reserve's balance sheet? And threatening to redistribute it does exactly the opposite of what you suggest, it encourages sheltering and expenses to keep it from the taxman, including placing it in lower tax jurisdictions, Ask NYC how that's working for them. And "beneficial to society" is a nice concept please show where increasing taxes to distribute to others has ever increased total wealth. As regards someone who is motivated to create, that's the classical path of hard work, risk and innovation. Nothing to do with taxation. 

 

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28 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Economics is not really a science. And your use of thermodynamics is silly. For example: Much wealth is presently idle in that it is not being used for any productive purpose.  AT least in any way that benefits society or even the GDP. The mere threat of redistribution would move it back into a GDP use beneficial to society. Likely increasing total wealth. So would redistributing it to someone who is more motivated to create new wealth rather than just sit on the porch waiting for the sunset.

 

20 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

My use of Thermo was forced and I agree silly, as Economics has pertubation where the participants are reacting to psychological rather than merely physical inputs. The Nobel is awarded annually for economics and much as with the Peace prize is equally debased due to politics. When you say wealth is idle, are you suggesting that it's in cash sitting in safes? No doubt there's some in that form, and/or in precious metals etc rather than invested in capital that increases productivity. What's more idle than the Federal Reserve's balance sheet? And threatening to redistribute it does exactly the opposite of what you suggest, it encourages sheltering and expenses to keep it from the taxman, including placing it in lower tax jurisdictions, Ask NYC how that's working for them. And "beneficial to society" is a nice concept please show where increasing taxes to distribute to others has ever increased total wealth. As regards someone who is motivated to create, that's the classical path of hard work, risk and innovation. Nothing to do with taxation. 

 

This thought dipole would be a perfect final exam essay question for Econ 212.

"Which argument is correct. Explain fully. 80 points,"

 

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Yes indeed. Lioness has good points. It does come down to unmeasurable personal and political feelings. As for idle wealth: I live part-time in coastal Monterey County, California. The wealth sitting idle in real estate alone must be staggering. Homes and castles chock-a-block that cost far far more than any 'science' could predict. The only GDP is when the kitchens get remodeled or the marble driveway pavers become weathered. The owners might be economically persuaded, however unlikely, to seek a better return on their investments. Better in a social sense. Sure the value climbs up. Just like fine art traded back and forth at auctions. But that is not really GDP is it? I'm rather in that real estate game myself...reluctantly...shivering in a cabin on 400 acres of oceanfront property.

My other home is in the Philippines where any wealth, no matter how small, disappears off the books due to what seems like a nearly perfect implementation of a libertarian society. Nobody cares what the poor do. And the rich do as they please. The government being a powerless underfunded and malformed accessory everybody, rich and poor, ignores. The point being that the great wealth that exists, is hidden: idle or overseas. No economic incentive to put it to work. Finding the Billions in Marcos gold and diamonds and numbered accounts would be quite a boon if invested in GDP boosting projects. But nobody seems to care.

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On 4/5/2020 at 5:22 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

Give everyone a couple days to stock up and close EVERYTHING for 3 weeks, not just SOME things.

Doesn't work, the shelves will instantly be stripped bare. We've saw that big-time in the UK at the beginning of the lock-down. Home delivery slots are still like gold dust.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Doesn't work, the shelves will instantly be stripped bare. We've saw that big-time in the UK at the beginning of the lock-down. Home delivery slots are still like gold dust.

Still no flour or pasta on the shelves! 

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If someone wants to sue the port in a class action law suit, this is easy pickens.  Not only does it offend common sense, people on boats are generally self isolating AND if they read SA it's likely all of the germs in them have been killed by alcohol. But mainly,  it violates multiple constitutional rights at both the state and US level as well as a ton of case law. 

 

The port is begging to be sued with this illeagal decree.  If I had a boat in a slip in S.D. they would be paying my slip fees for a VERY long time.

https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/swamp/docs/cwt/guidance/1321.pdf excerpts below.

CITIZENS' RIGHTS TO CALIFORNIA WATERWAY USE

The public's right to use California waterways is guaranteed by the United States and California Constitutions and affirmed by California Legislative Codes. Both Federal and California case law further define and affirm these rights.

United States Constitution - Freedom of navigation and the public’s right to use rivers are guaranteed by the Commerce Clause. The congressional Act admitting States to the Union requires that “all the navigable waters within said State shall be common highways and forever free.”

California State Constitution, Article 10, Section 4 - Forbids individual, joint and corporate landowners from obstructing free navigation. It provides that “the Legislature shall enact such law as will give the most liberal construction to this provision, so that access to the navigable waters of this State shall be always attainable for the people thereof.” It also forbids landowners “to exclude the right of way to [navigable] water whenever it is required for any public purpose.”

California Public Resources Code, Section 6301 - States the “California State Lands Commission has exclusive jurisdiction over all ungranted tidelands and submerged lands owned in the state and the beds of navigable rivers, streams, lakes, bays, estuaries, inlets and straits, including tidelands and submerged lands or any interest therein, whether within or beyond the boundaries of the State as established by law ..... .”

California Civil Code, Section 830 - States the State’s ownership of tidelands, submerged lands and beds of navigable waterways includes lands laying below the ordinary high water mark of tidal waterways and below the ordinary low water mark of non-tidal waterways. The area between the ordinary high and low water marks on non- tidal waterways is subject to a “public trust easement” which is also under State Lands Commission jurisdiction.

California Public Trust Doctrine - Restricts the kinds and uses for which state lands may be utilized. These uses typically include public uses of waterways for navigation, commerce, fisheries, recreation and environmental protection. The State Lands Commission reviews projects affecting tidal and non-tidal waterways for consistency with the public trust doctrine.

California Harbors & Navigation Code, Section 100 - States that “Navigable waters and all streams of sufficient capacity to transport the products of the country are public ways for the purpose of navigation and of such transportation.”

Clean Water Act & San Francisco Bay Basin Plan - The Clean Water Act requires that every effort be made to improve the beneficial uses of area waterways. The Basin Plan lists all of the waterways and tributaries draining into the basin as well as their beneficial or potential beneficial uses. Contact and non-contact water recreation are two of the many beneficial uses listed in the plan. The WWCC is requesting that the Regional Water Quality Control Board, the agency responsible for the Basin Plan, list contact and non-contact recreation, which includes boating, as beneficial uses for all of the area's major streams.

Federal Case Law

Daniel Ball, 77 U.S. (10 Wall.) 557,563 (1870) A stream is navigable in fact when it is used, or susceptible of being used, in its ordinary condition, as a highway for commerce, over which trade or travel are or may be conducted. Transportation of people or recreational use is considered to meet the description of travel (Navigability of Inland Waterways, Univ. of Calif. Davis Vol. 16:579).

Churchill Co. v. Kingbury (1918) 174 P. 329, 178 C. 554) State’s title to land under navigable waters extends, not only to land underlying the part of navigable waters over with navigation m