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Restarting America Means People Will Die. So When Should We Do It?


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7 hours ago, Lark said:

What should we have done?    What should we do next time?    This question deserves consideration.    There likely will be a next time. 

There's a couple of obvious things right out of the gate.

1 - We need a mechanism to get money to people directly.  We've now had three administrations that have tried helicopter money to varying degrees.  The tax code isn't the right way.  Personally, I like the US Postal Bank, tied to your social security.  Yes, it becomes a national id.  And ultimately, it becomes your health savings account.

2 - The way health care works creates both bad incentives and bad data.  That's a much deeper problem and quickly gets into the broader healthcare question.

I'm not about to get into the 'measure my pain' game on a chat board.

 

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You're a smart guy. You're obviously aware that New Zealand is a suburb of Bondi, just round the corner from Random's joint in Queensland.  BJ can just yell over the fence at him.  Yes, the USA i

As much as I agree with the concept, I don't think it's possible to have a rational national discussion.  I don't think there's an appetite for a rational discussion on this board, let alone the great

Of course what I think has not bearing.  But the example was raised and I am free to render my opinion--if Bus Driver didn't want a reaction, he wouldn't have posted that.   I actually feel sorry for

Posted Images

Another nail in an almost closed coffin

What a wonderful phrase. From a republican no less

This testing issue is going to kill Trump.

Despite claims of millions of Tests, per million your only testing 12,000 nationwide average, you're testing fewer people than..take your pick.

It's even got to Trump trying to stand in front of comparative charts.

You can't keep selling a dead parrot.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/21/trump-coronavirus-testing-197839

Watch the video too, dunno who the bloke with the barrs is but Pence looked at him like something he scraped off his shoe.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Dog said:

Maybe we should have not shut down...

“Sweden’s unusual approach to fighting the coronavirus pandemic is starting to yield results, according to the country’s top epidemiologist.

Anders Tegnell, the architect behind Sweden’s relatively relaxed response to Covid-19, told local media the latest figures on infection rates and fatalities indicate the situation is starting to stabilize.

Sweden has left its schools, gyms, cafes, bars and restaurants open throughout the spread of the pandemic. Instead, the government has urged citizens to act responsibly and follow social distancing guidelines”.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-19/sweden-says-controversial-covid-19-strategy-is-proving-effective

 

I'll remember your pointing to a Scandinavian country as a model we may want to emulate the next time we are discussing issues about how the US can do better.

That said, care to do a comparison of Sweden to the US?  How about on these two points (from your link)?

Part of that approach relies on having access to one of the world’s best-functioning health-care systems. At no stage did Sweden see a real shortage of medical equipment or hospital capacity, and tents set up as emergency care facilities around the country have mostly remained empty.

and 

Pomeroy pointed to some Swedish characteristics that may be helping the country deal with the current crisis. More than half of Swedish households are single-person, making social distancing easier to carry out. More people work from home than anywhere else in Europe, and everyone has access to fast Internet, which helps large chunks of the workforce stay productive away from the office.

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^

 

ya missed this Bus

 

Quote

 Instead, the government has urged citizens to act responsibly and follow social distancing guidelines.

 

hard pressed to find that stateside .

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2 minutes ago, chum said:

I heard yesterday that people who should be going to the hospital with symptoms of serious issues are not going out of fear. More unintended consequences.

Fear of what? The bill?

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btw :

 

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Volvo, which was forced to halt production across Europe and furlough about 20,000 Swedish employees, will resume production at its Swedish plants on Monday.

the shut down you have when you are not having a shutdown .

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8 minutes ago, chum said:

I heard yesterday that people who should be going to the hospital with symptoms of serious issues are not going out of fear. More unintended consequences.

Well I know people in the USA with symptoms of serious illness that are afraid to go to hospital because they are afraid of the bill.

So it's a reasonable assumption that that is what you were referring to. Be more specific.

If you mean they are afraid of catching the virus, well that's not an unreasonable fear with the situation being what it is in the USA.

My mother is being refused admission into a private Rehab hospital here (where we have this thing pretty well under control at the moment) because hospital is not the best place for old people at the moment.

 

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18 minutes ago, chum said:

You’re full of shit Meli, I’m not going to engage with you. Next week your fat ass will be floating along with whatever putrid tide is flowing through here insulting anyone not getting washed in or out with the rest of you.

I win

again :D

And I don't wish to be contrary but my bottom half is a 10 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Size 

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1 minute ago, chum said:

I will engage you on this. You posted a picture of your posterior for some reason awhile ago, and unless it was fisheye effect on the camera, you ass is definitely larger than size 10. Own it, it’s ok.

You don't like a big booty?

- DSK

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8 minutes ago, chum said:

I will engage you on this. You posted a picture of your posterior for some reason awhile ago, and unless it was fisheye effect on the camera, you ass is definitely larger than size 10. Own it, it’s ok.

liar. 

my jeans

 

WIN_20200421_23_14_44_Pro.jpg

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55 minutes ago, Mid said:

ya missed this Bus

 

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 Instead, the government has urged citizens to act responsibly and follow social distancing guidelines.

 

hard pressed to find that stateside .

Oh, I saw that.  It was too obvious the difference is stark.  Witness the AK-47 wearing, Confederate flag waving, "protesters" who insist on not following the guidelines.

Funny how those folks are wearing their red hats and waving their Trump signs, and Dog has to ask how someone knows they are Republicans.

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1 hour ago, chum said:

It’s a lean contract, written that way originally to take the contract from the bloated gov agency that had it. Probably saving the taxpayers millions while actually delivering top products and services on time to our clients. Now what?

Winning bigley hu chumbucket.  Was wondering where the trump came in.  Wow, you just nailed his entire campaign in 1frigging sentence...  using adjectives upon adjectives to describe a possibility backed up by stats only you can provide..  Brilliant!!!!!!  Not that there is anything wrong with that...(purple)

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Changing tacks a bit...

As some of you know, I live in a county in West Michigan that has been marginally impacted by the Coronavirus as a whole.  There has been a spike in new cases lately which is producing a negative trend while the rest of Michigan, including Detroit, has been seeing more positive results lately.  But I digress.  Kent County has 645,000 people.  Population density is mixed with urban, suburban, and rural areas.  So far, there are 550 confirmed cases and 24 deaths attributed to COVID.  Let's for starters assume the infection rate is 5x the number of confirmed cases.  That puts it at  2,750.  By my math, that means that .43% of the population has been infected and .003% have sadly died.  I accept that these numbers will climb.

Question--does this justify shutting down the economy?  Why can't 'safe' businesses like landscaping, home construction, or marine industries operate?  Why was everything deemed 'unsafe' and only 'essential' businesses allowed to operate?  That is  the question about opening up.  What is safe and what isn't safe?  Not what is essential and what is not essential.

Just my two cents.  Flame away.

Hrothgar

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29 minutes ago, BravoBravo said:

 

Where do you find this shit?  r/conspiracy? davidicke.com?

His accent tells me he's not anywhere near the tri-state...

Swapping other deaths as covid doesn't explain why NYC had 4x a normal month's worth of deaths last month. 

And maybe he's never seen bodies loaded with a forklift into tractor-trailers, but we just had a mortician tell us that it's not all that unusual. 

"Look at our ventilators"  -  and then he goes on, himself, to clarify that those aren't the same kind of ventilators that there's shortages of.  You can't argue both points at the same time, duh.

Guy's astoundingly knucklehead for a supposed doctor.

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2 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Hrothtard still asking the same questions in search of someone giving him the answer he wants to hear. Always the sign of the rational mind.

MJ still has nothing of value to contribute to the forum....always the sign of the rational mind.

Hroth

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6 minutes ago, chum said:

He’s a respiratory therapist, not a doctor. The interesting part was his echoing what the doctor from Montana and others are saying about the death certificates.

You can find multiple people who still believe that the earth is flat. The only thing interesting I can find about it would be exploring what type of pathology allows someone to live so divorced from reality. 

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12 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

Why can't 'safe' businesses like landscaping, home construction, or marine industries operate?  Why was everything deemed 'unsafe' and only 'essential' businesses allowed to operate?  That is  the question about opening up.  What is safe and what isn't safe?  Not what is essential and what is not essential.

 

Your questions are answered daily in whitmer's press conferences.

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10 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

Changing tacks a bit...

As some of you know, I live in a county in West Michigan that has been marginally impacted by the Coronavirus as a whole.  There has been a spike in new cases lately which is producing a negative trend while the rest of Michigan, including Detroit, has been seeing more positive results lately.  But I digress.  Kent County has 645,000 people.  Population density is mixed with urban, suburban, and rural areas.  So far, there are 550 confirmed cases and 24 deaths attributed to COVID.  Let's for starters assume the infection rate is 5x the number of confirmed cases.  That puts it at  2,750.  By my math, that means that .43% of the population has been infected and .003% have sadly died.  I accept that these numbers will climb.

Question--does this justify shutting down the economy?  Why can't 'safe' businesses like landscaping, home construction, or marine industries operate?  Why was everything deemed 'unsafe' and only 'essential' businesses allowed to operate?  That is  the question about opening up.  What is safe and what isn't safe?  Not what is essential and what is not essential.

Just my two cents.  Flame away.

Hrothgar

Landscapers who may not be directly interacting with customers, but they do ride around in trucks with eachother, so each would then be expanding the group of folks who share their risks from just their immediate family they live with, to the immediate families they live with along with the families of everyone they work with. If people were really abiding by the recommendations, it would make a big difference. Since it was rushed out after the feds dragged their feet for a few months, and then they failed miserably at getting a consistent unified response out there, many folks are in the same boat as you not understanding the reasoning behind a number of decisions. 

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Your questions are answered daily in whitmer's press conferences.

The issue is that she has deemed everything 'unsafe' for now.  As a result, only 'essential' businesses are allowed to operate.  She is doing a poor job of communicating the distinction.

Hroth

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29 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Hrothtard still asking the same stupid questions in search of someone giving him the answer he wants to hear.

Could I suggest that people are not getting clear information on a state by state basis? 

Here we seem to have managed quite well so far, numbers small and growth less than 1%..we are asked not to go out other than work,( if we can keep a decent distance from our collegues,) "essential shopping" well I suppose the pet suppliers, games and toy shops, banks, clothing stores, hardware, garden and two dollar shops are all essential ..the store owners are limiting numbers allowed in..other than that..well lessee, cafe's and restaurants can do take away or delivery, if you take your dog to the vet..not sure.

No movie theatres, no sports, no choir practice.

I can call a computer techie in to fix my laptop ( they come to you, so your not exposing their staff, and take it away and bring it back) 

I can get any tradie in to do work, building sites and road works are ..working.

I got my car serviced last week.

You can walk your dog.

Just everyone keep 6 feet apart. It's not that hard!

 

Seems to me that like everything CV19 related in the USA..you're all mining misinformation.

I'm assuming there are places in the USA with "Hard" lockdowns..but how many people complaining, are actually suffering hard lockdown?

Like Chump said.."I heard today":rolleyes:

It's not nothing, and the economy is taking more than a pounding, but somehow I suspect that some people are politicising the problems.

EDIT of course if you goverpeoples at all levels ran around for months like headless chooks and let the communty spread get away from them because their leader is a stupid cock crowing on his dungheap rather than keeping the hens safe..all bets are off.

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9 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Here we seem to have managed quite well so far, numbers small and growth less than 1%..we are asked not to go out other than work,( if we can keep a decent distance from our collegues,) "essential shopping" well I suppose the pet suppliers, games and toy shops, banks, clothing stores, hardware, garden and two dollar shops are all essential ..the store owners are limiting numbers allowed in..other than that..well lessee, cafe's and restaurants can do take away or delivery, if you take your dog to the vet..not sure.

No movie theatres, no sports, no choir practice.

I can call a computer techie in to fix my laptop ( they come to you, so your not exposing their staff, and take it away and bring it back) 

I can get any tradie in to do work, building sites and road works are ..working.

I got my car serviced last week.

You can walk your dog.

Just everyone keep 6 feet apart. It's not that hard!

Makes sense to me.  Not sure why our Governor doesn't see it the same way!

Hroth

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9 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

Makes sense to me.  Not sure why our Governor doesn't see it the same way!

Hroth

Where do you live? Like I said. if the community spread has not been contained, and you don't have tests or contact investigation working so you don't know who is infecting who. stricter measures are required.

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7 minutes ago, chum said:

So we have a six foot invisible pathogen barrier around us?

Lol

Yep. It's called "air"

Not so much a pathogen barrier, just a measured distance that exhaled droplets of bodily fluid carrying virus will travel. It's a bell curve like so much in nature. At 6' away from an "average" person (going by the volume and velocity of their exhaled breath) you get less than 5% of the fluid droplets.

So that reduces contagion a lot. Not bulletproof, but a big ( ~95%) reduction in risk.

BTW to get 0% you need to be 6.25 meters... about 20 feet... away.

That does NOT include sneezing or coughing, BTW.

- DSK

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12 minutes ago, chum said:

So we have a six foot invisible pathogen barrier around us?

Lol

Why are you so dumb? 

Perhaps you got menigococcal disease because your mum didn't teach you not to spit, to wash your hands and to cover your mouth when you cough or sneeze...yeah, that must be it.

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8 hours ago, frenchie said:

Yeah, sure; but in this case you're comparing things that aren't what you're pretending they are.

 

Have a bit more cold water: there hasn't been a lot available, in terms of autopsies of COVID-19 patients; but I was just reading one report, out of New Orleans... it's why I came back, just now, actually.  4 patients; none of whom had any indication of bacterial co-infection, upon autopsy. 

A notable finding was the lack of significant secondary infection in all of our cases. While all of the patients received antibiotic therapy throughout their hospital courses, the lack of significant bacterial or fungal infection suggests that this is not the main cause of their decline. We also note that two of our patients were younger than those commonly thought to be ask risk for death due to Covid-19, and without immunosuppressive therapy, though with obesity, hypertension, and diabetes - comorbidities often present in our patient population, and in the population of many cities with Covid-19 on the rise. Based on our findings, we believe that effective therapy for these patients should not only target the viral pathogen, but also the thrombotic and microangiopathic effects of the virus, and possibly a maladaptive immune response to viral infection.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.06.20050575v1.full.pdf

Which fits with some other stuff I've been reading.  The mechanism isn't always (or even: usually?) ARDS  -  it's often immune system overreaction ("cytokine storm"), and something fucking weird about blood clotting. 

Patients seem to have ARDS, because they're hypoxic - but the way they (don't) respond to being vented, suggests something else is going on: that the ARDS "paradigm" is wrong.  One doctor even compared it to altitude sickness...

https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/

There's also an NYU Langone survey of 4k patients, that found being a smoker didn't predict whether you end up in the ICU, at all; other conditions like hypertension had some predictive power... but what really stood out was having a BMI > 30.

Their hypothesis is that it's because obesity is an inflammatory condition, and inflammation is what differentiates severe from mild COVID-19.  And that perhaps some inflammatory markers that are assumed to indicate bacterial infection, which is why people get put on antibiotics... are not marking bacterial infection, they're just part of the immune system overreacting to the virus.

Surprisingly . . . we did not find smoking status to be associated with increased risk of hospitalization or critical illness . . . More striking were our findings about the importance of inflammatory markers in distinguishing future critical from non-critical illness . . . Some emerging case reports suggest that patients with critical Covid-19 disease are developing complications from hypercoagulability, including both pulmonary emboli and microscopic thrombi.  In this regard it is notable that the chronic condition with the strongest association with critical illness was obesity, with a substantially higher odds ratio than any cardiovascular or pulmonary disease. Obesity is well-recognized to be a pro-inflammatory condition . . . Finally, we noted that early (relatively mild) elevation in procalcitonin was a powerful splitter in the classification tree, although Covid-19 appears to be characterized by low procalcitonin levels in general. While many patients with elevated procalcitonin and critical illness were treated with antibiotics, it remains unclear whether these patients actually had bacterial disease or whether the elevation in procalcitonin was another manifestation of a general hyperinflammatory state.

It's not about having controls; it's about how the lag in reporting varies between areas (and between diagnoses, which is a separate issue, but pretty damn relevant to your project). 

Provisional data are incomplete, and the level of completeness varies by jurisdiction, week, decedent’s age, and cause of death. Until data for a calendar year are finalized, typically in December of the following year, completeness of provisional data cannot be determined. 

And that the data is particularly  fucking incomplete, when it's under a month old:

Previous analyses of provisional data completeness from 2015 suggested that mortality data is approximately 27% complete within 2 weeks, 54% complete within 4 weeks, and at least 75% complete within 8 weeks of when the death occurred

And that the incompleteness varies wildly between different States:

Twenty states report over 75% of deaths within the first 10 days, while three states report fewer than 1% of deaths within 10 days.

 

These are really good examples of people looking for relationships with "poor" data ... small sample sizes, incomplete data. Some of these may be dead ends, some may not.

Assuming we can learn anything from Chinese research on this, deaths often seem connected to lung damage, coinfections, pollution.

But what emerging data really suggests is that the most at risk populations here are homeless, uninsured people. Respiratory infections from lack of clean water? Increased exposure to ozone compared to very little ozone indoors?

I think I see a little better where your objection is though. I'm not suggesting that NYC's possible lack of pneumonia diagnosis has anything to do with that high death rate, but rather that the possible lack of pneumonia diagnosis supports to possibility that SARS-CoV-2 is a wrecking ball for urban homeless and uninsured, while it barely grazes people like you and me.

One thing though, the lack of connection to smoking doesn't surprise me too much. Current filters on cigarettes are so good that they lop off the course mode particulates leaving mostly accumulation mode particulates. Smoking increasingly becomes a danger to cardiovascular health rather than just lung health. The new and emerging threat to lungs is vape and ozone pollution. The vape changes the surface energy of the lung tissue, and the ozone breaks cell bonds and causes permanent scarring and loss of elasticity. For all we know, at this time next year, when the data is in, we may find that being outdoors a lot in polluted places tended to kill off people via SARS-CoV-2. And as shown in your examples above, research needs to start with a hunch. Science without a hunch is "stamp collecting" to paraphrase Ernest Rutherford.

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4 minutes ago, chum said:

Again with the Republican thing I think I said it here probably 100 times here I’ve never once voted Republican in my life. So there’s that.

troll?

In PA, "Republican" is often used to suggest that someone disagrees with you.

I'm a "Republican" too for being concerned about children in Developing Nations. Ironically, it was Clean who wrote that "nobody cares" about children in Developing Nations and he has the ignorance of those conditions to go with it.

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11 minutes ago, chum said:

Again with the Republican thing I think I said it here probably 100 times here I’ve never once voted Republican in my life. So there’s that.

troll?

Your voting Lyndon LaRouche David Duke, Ran Paul, and Pat Buchanan doesn’t mean your not a douchebag republican..

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22 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Not at all.  I taught in Detroit schools HS math after 30yrs doing defense/intelligence research.  The numbers say that by and large, AA kids are disadvantaged economically and that correlates almost perfectly with school performance.  There is something called the education gap where AA kids start school on average 2yrs behind white or Asian kids on day one.  Why?  Simple explanation is that they're not getting the at home instruction before starting school.  Head Start is aimed at addressing this gap, providing the pre-school education to level the field.

The solution is to provide all students with the same pre-school opportunities whether at home or in an organized environment.  Make sure all kids have access to healthy food, not get shot, etc.  

I have been saying this exact thing for years.  But yet instead of doing it, the solution instead seems to point fingers at the people who DID have parents who gave early instruction at home with the accusation of "white privilege".  It helps nothing other than shutting off the conversation and that's my entire fucking point here.  

So, do all the millions of middle class and well to do black families that provide at home instruction and learning and nutrition and such from an early age for their children and their children go to college to become Dr's and Engineers.... are they also the product of "white privilege"??  

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1 hour ago, hrothgar said:

Makes sense to me.  Not sure why our Governor doesn't see it the same way!

Hroth

You live in DeVosville.  Our Governor has done a great job, but she's not a Republican.  You are very simple minded.

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10 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

I have been saying this exact thing for years.  But yet instead of doing it, the solution instead seems to point fingers at the people who DID have parents who gave early instruction at home with the accusation of "white privilege".  It helps nothing other than shutting off the conversation and that's my entire fucking point here.  

So, do all the millions of middle class and well to do black families that provide at home instruction and learning and nutrition and such from an early age for their children and their children go to college to become Dr's and Engineers.... are they also the product of "white privilege"??  

Yes to the first half of your question, the second half doesn't warrant a reply.  How stupid is Jeff?  

Just saying...

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22 hours ago, Raz'r said:

He doesn't "Rail against" white privelege. He, and I and many others, like to point out that folks like yourself, are completely clueless. You are without clue.

BS!  He, you and all the others here "rail" against white privilege as if it's supposed to be some Scarlet letter or something.  And I am more than well clued in that I had the luck to have well educated parents who both came from extremely modest working class families and who valued the concepts of nurturing and educating children from an early age and being involved in their lives.  So what happens now that I have that awareness???  I should be ashamed that I had it better than some others whose parents were more interested in getting high at night instead of being home reading to them?  Where the mother had 4 different kids by 4 different "baby daddies"?  

I hates to break it to you all.... but pretty much every damn one of you here reading this are the product of "white privilege".  And you are no more or less clued in than I am.  And you are doing precisely fuck all about it other than talking about it, wringing your hands, being triggered and pointing fingers.  Bunch of hypocritical cunts, you be.  

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1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You’ve pretty much described where I live in the states, and the governor has been quite clear. There’s plenty of good information, but chum/broth don’t want it.

 It’s not “misinformation” as much as emotion lead hyperbole, fueled by an existing grievance machine pumped to idiots that hav3 already bought into th3 grievance machine.

Cheaper than meds, and you don’t have to remember to take them every morning!  Just watch your tv, listen to the radio, answer your phone, open the mail, or click on your favorite social media!  It’s quick, it’s easy, and anti vaxxers love it!  It’s a vaccine without a pill or injection!  Quick and painless, through your eyes or ears, ready to rid your brain of any liberal thoughts!  Daily injection is recommended!

(There is some evidence that outrage caused by ANY Liberal Media may act as a booster to grievance machine medication, but TAKE AT YOUR OWN RISK!  Yelling at media can cause stress induced biophysical harm or DEATH!)

(OR POSTING IN ALL CAPS!)

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4 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

You live in DeVosville.  Our Governor has done a great job, but she's not a Republican.  You are very simple minded.

I respectfully (not sure why) disagree that she has done a great job.  Exhibit 1 should be Detroit and all of SE Michigan.  You know she is from "DeVosville'' didn't you?

Hroth

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Just now, hrothgar said:

I respectfully (not sure why) disagree that she has done a great job.  Exhibit 1 should be Detroit and all of SE Michigan.  You know she is from "DeVosville'' didn't you?

Hroth

You're still breathing.  Betsy will not be in office in a year, and what has she accomplished?  Her move to get private schools state bucks didn't work in MI, so what exactly has she accomplished?  Feel free to enumerate her successes.  And how much did she pay for the position?   Someday you'll grow up and vote on principles and not zip code.  

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11 hours ago, mikewof said:

(deleted to help out the folks who don't want to see the bullshit)

Here you go Bullshitter

image.thumb.png.2faeac41cdcb5067db06773ece253c16.png

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Just now, Cal20sailor said:

You're still breathing.  Betsy will not be in office in a year, and what has she accomplished?  Her move to get private schools state bucks didn't work in MI, so what exactly has she accomplished?  Feel free to enumerate her successes.  And how much did she pay for the position?   Someday you'll grow up and vote on principles and not zip code.  

If I voted on Zip Code I'd have voted for her...and why do you always deflect criticism of Whitmer with comments about Betsy DeVos?  What do they have to do with each other?  I always through she was a strange pick for that role having had no public service experience to speak of.

You can't honestly say Whitmer has done a good job with this whole thing, can you?  She has been a day late and a dollar short on every decision she made.

Hroth

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3 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

If I voted on Zip Code I'd have voted for her...and why do you always deflect criticism of Whitmer with comments about Betsy DeVos?  What do they have to do with each other?  I always through she was a strange pick for that role having had no public service experience to speak of.

You can't honestly say Whitmer has done a good job with this whole thing, can you?  She has been a day late and a dollar short on every decision she made.

Hroth

Can't say that I've watched her actions closely, but the results are pretty awful. It doesn't help that the gun and fishing yahoos are begging for a 2nd wave.

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1 minute ago, hrothgar said:

If I voted on Zip Code I'd have voted for her...and why do you always deflect criticism of Whitmer with comments about Betsy DeVos?  What do they have to do with each other?  I always through she was a strange pick for that role having had no public service experience to speak of.

You can't honestly say Whitmer has done a good job with this whole thing, can you?  She has been a day late and a dollar short on every decision she made.

Hroth

Eliminate Detroit from the numbers and Michigan is in line with other states.  Her Draconian measures now are working.  I'm sorry, just climbing walls in a very pissy mood.  I have friends in Ada.

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56 minutes ago, chum said:

Since Florida’s projected numbers plunged this week,  It begs the question about how accurate the whole model is. 
Why should we continue a course of action that was informed by numbers that we find out now are bigly wrong? What part were we wrong about?

 

Once here is enough testing, sure.  You are risking lives for basically nothing if you open shit up now.  It's really easy...  suck it up for another week or so.  The states that got it early are showing good #'s, yours is not and you have zero idea what is going on because of ...  TESTING....!!!

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

Can't say that I've watched her actions closely, but the results are pretty awful. It doesn't help that the gun and fishing yahoos are begging for a 2nd wave.

My ex boss is a full foxynewsy and has been playing golf with friends and hosting apartment parties for 2 weeks.  There are a LOT of those folks here without the balls to go full Ar-15 retard but still doing their part to curven the curve.

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

Eliminate Detroit from the numbers and Michigan is in line with other states.  Her Draconian measures now are working.  I'm sorry, just climbing walls in a very pissy mood.  I have friends in Ada.

It's understandable.  I'm climbing the walls too!  Hopefully the Bay View Mac Race can still happen!  This is the first year we are coming over for it.

Hroth

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17 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

terrorists.jpg

But it's OK if they armor up with clubs to bash heads and carry flags with the Hammer & Sickle??

captain2-e1488841028177-jpg.192401

1259fee69b68a976865062a9b0864b2d.jpg

13688945.jpg

I thought the use of the "No hate" sign being used to beat the shit out of the old guy was particularly ironic.

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17 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:
19 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I always thought going after people's kids - even adults kids - is a pretty piss poor move.

Just sayin'.

I think when they're 21+ and mentioned several times in a bullshit way by their dad, they're fair game.  I'm willing to learn otherwise.  

I agree with BJ.  It's never ok.  

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3 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Eliminate Detroit from the numbers and Michigan is in line with other states.  Her Draconian measures now are working.  I'm sorry, just climbing walls in a very pissy mood.  I have friends in Ada.

Southfield worst in Oakland County.  My zip code covers about 2 miles x 2.5 miles and has the worst numbers in the county:  350 cases, 43 deaths or well over 10% case fatality rate.  Strangely enough it is quite close to the number of people that my NY hometown lost when the WTC came down; 41 if I remember correctly.  

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

My ex boss is a full foxynewsy and has been playing golf with friends and hosting apartment parties for 2 weeks.  There are a LOT of those folks here without the balls to go full Ar-15 retard but still doing their part to curven the curve.

I saw a bunch of golfers out at a course nearby here on Sunday as well.  I was a bit surprised, frankly.

Hroth

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2 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

 

 

I thought the use of the "No hate" sign being used to beat the shit out of the old guy was particularly ironic.

Those papercuts he is suffering from the posterboard look quite painful.  When did you turn into such a little snowflake Jeffie?

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1 minute ago, hrothgar said:

I saw a bunch of golfers out at a course nearby here on Sunday as well.  I was a bit surprised, frankly.

Hroth

I think I'm going to make up a big lawn poster for CURVEN THE CURVE for those folks.

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4 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Once here is enough testing, sure.  You are risking lives for basically nothing if you open shit up now.  It's really easy...  suck it up for another week or so.  The states that got it early are showing good #'s, yours is not and you have zero idea what is going on because of ...  TESTING....!!!

I’m pretty sure Chum has a line on testing, medication,  and PPE.  He has that same sort of nonchalance that the Trump Bunch has towards the Coronavirus, and Lord knows, they have all the protection they will ever need.  Chum really should remember to feign concern, otherwise more people will notice his immunity....

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14 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

BS!  He, you and all the others here "rail" against white privilege as if it's supposed to be some Scarlet letter or something.  And I am more than well clued in that I had the luck to have well educated parents who both came from extremely modest working class families and who valued the concepts of nurturing and educating children from an early age and being involved in their lives.  So what happens now that I have that awareness???  I should be ashamed that I had it better than some others whose parents were more interested in getting high at night instead of being home reading to them?  Where the mother had 4 different kids by 4 different "baby daddies"?  

 

Is this JBSF? Kinda reads like him

Now that you have "awareness" it gets a lot easier. The next time someone accuses you of racism, you should be proud that you've recognized your inherent racism. It's in us all, having been raised in a racist economy that rewards inherited wealth and penalizes poverty with just enough food to keep them alive.

You and I can't ever see a world that dogs see, where every other dog is just a dog. We see a world that is the product of the world in which we were raised, where skin pigmentation has us feel things, assume things and write things like you wrote up there in bold.

You're racist. I'm racist. Our racism has been built into is without our consent. So what do we do? As you brush your teeth in the morning, just resolve to be a little less racist for one day, and then repeat until they drop us into the ground.

If we're good, we might help our children and grandchildren grow up even less racist than we are. And then someday, far inthefuture.com, humans really will see each other the way dogs see each other.

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14 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

So should my mom who is 90 and smarter than you on any day of the week die?

We're ALL going to die.  Some sooner than others.

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4 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Once here is enough testing, sure.  You are risking lives for basically nothing if you open shit up now.  It's really easy...  suck it up for another week or so.  The states that got it early are showing good #'s, yours is not and you have zero idea what is going on because of ...  TESTING....!!!

I’m pretty sure Chum has a line on testing, medication,  and PPE.  He has that same sort of nonchalance that the Trump Bunch has towards the Coronavirus, and Lord knows, they have all the protection they will ever need.  Chum really should remember to feign concern, otherwise more people will notice his immunity....

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8 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

 

 

 

13688945.jpg

I thought the use of the "No hate" sign being used to beat the shit out of the old guy was particularly ironic.

I think that being beaten to pulp by a NO HATE sign is hilarious, and I envy that guy for having something to laugh about for the rest of his life.

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All this yelling, hand wringing etc could have been tamped down if the frigging idiot in charge had acted.  Just acted, not stepped in and saved shit, it is not black and white, but just acted like a professional human.  He did not, he is not and he will not.  There are no tests because he did not act, I could go on, but hos failings have been posted 1000 times before, That is the truth.  Now add in an enabling senate..  how is any of this ok?  Bring it down to brass tax..  HOW, ON GODS GREEN EARTH, IS ANY OF THIS OK?   People have died, weather 44,000 or 1 you are marginalizing taxpayers lives.   I beg my fellow anarchists that lean right to explain.....  

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10 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

You're right.

I learned my closest family member had lung cancer that had metastasized to his spine and now he can't speak  I will see him later this week.  Those that know me will pray for him.

 

No excuse for being nasty , my apologies to all including Mike.

I see your anger management classes are having mixed results at best.  

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9 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Southfield worst in Oakland County.  My zip code covers about 2 miles x 2.5 miles and has the worst numbers in the county:  350 cases, 43 deaths or well over 10% case fatality rate.  Strangely enough it is quite close to the number of people that my NY hometown lost when the WTC came down; 41 if I remember correctly.  

My mom worked at the old Sinai Grace for 30 yrs.  Stay safe buddy.

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19 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

My ex boss is a full foxynewsy and has been playing golf with friends and hosting apartment parties for 2 weeks.  There are a LOT of those folks here without the balls to go full Ar-15 retard but still doing their part to curven the curve.

For all we know, the only real way to "curven the curve" is to be without health insurance or be homeless, or elderly and broke. and live without the benefits of American wealth.

Oh wait, you don't care about people like that ... carry on with your pseudo lefty nonsense. Or maybe read Road to Wigan Pier so you can learn to walk the walk.

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1 minute ago, shaggy said:

All this yelling, hand wringing etc could have been tamped down if the frigging idiot in charge had acted.  He did Just acted, not stepped in and saved shit, it is not black and white, but just acted like a professional human.  He did not, he is not and he will not.  There are no tests because he did not act, There are tests I could go on, but hos failings have been posted 1000 times before, That is the truth.  Now add in an enabling senate..  how is any of this ok?  Bring it down to brass tax..  HOW, ON GODS GREEN EARTH, IS ANY OF THIS OK?   People have died, weather 44,000 or 1 you are marginalizing taxpayers lives. Ummm...There's a pandemic  I beg my fellow anarchists that lean right to explain..... explain what? 

 

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8 minutes ago, shaggy said:

All this yelling, hand wringing etc could have been tamped down if the frigging idiot in charge had acted.  Just acted, not stepped in and saved shit, it is not black and white, but just acted like a professional human.  He did not, he is not and he will not.  There are no tests because he did not act, I could go on, but hos failings have been posted 1000 times before, That is the truth.  Now add in an enabling senate..  how is any of this ok?  Bring it down to brass tax..  HOW, ON GODS GREEN EARTH, IS ANY OF THIS OK?   People have died, weather 44,000 or 1 you are marginalizing taxpayers lives.   I beg my fellow anarchists that lean right to explain.....  

I generally think there is plenty of blame to go around...a lot clearly rests with Trump's inaction.  But, you can toss in the governors too, as well as the House of Representatives.  Can you imagine the political outcry from the 50 state governors had Trump ordered the nation as a whole shut down to stop the spread?  Governors generally don't like to be told what to do and also sadly, often point fingers at the Feds when they can't solve their problems.  Its more complicated than just saying Trump failed.

Hroth

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2 minutes ago, mikewof said:

For all we know, the only real way to "curven the curve" is to be without health insurance or be homeless, and live without the benefits of American wealth.

Oh wait, you don't care about people like that ... carry on with your pseudo lefty nonsense.

Who woke the moron?

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

 

I am not gonna get on this roller coaster with you again dog.  I asked, you spin.  

That's the world goes round.  

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1 minute ago, hrothgar said:

I generally think there is plenty of blame to go around...a lot clearly rests with Trump's inaction.  But, you can toss in the governors too, as well as the House of Representatives.  Can you imagine the political outcry from the 50 state governors had Trump ordered the nation as a whole shut down to stop the spread?  Governors generally don't like to be told what to do and also sadly, often point fingers at the Feds when they can't solve their problems.  It more complicated than just saying Trump failed.

Hroth

It more complicated?  Yes, it is.

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9 minutes ago, shaggy said:

All this yelling, hand wringing etc could have been tamped down if the frigging idiot in charge had acted.  Just acted, not stepped in and saved shit, it is not black and white, but just acted like a professional human.  He did not, he is not and he will not.  There are no tests because he did not act, I could go on, but hos failings have been posted 1000 times before, That is the truth.  Now add in an enabling senate..  how is any of this ok?  Bring it down to brass tax..  HOW, ON GODS GREEN EARTH, IS ANY OF THIS OK?   People have died, weather 44,000 or 1 you are marginalizing taxpayers lives.   I beg my fellow anarchists that lean right to explain.....  

Add to that why he fought and mocked Inslee’s actions in the early days.  

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22 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Southfield worst in Oakland County.  My zip code covers about 2 miles x 2.5 miles and has the worst numbers in the county:  350 cases, 43 deaths or well over 10% case fatality rate.  Strangely enough it is quite close to the number of people that my NY hometown lost when the WTC came down; 41 if I remember correctly.  

Just curious- you flew to Seattle and back a while back, if I’m not mistaken- were you tested upon your return?  Ever?  Or is this yet another case of not enough tests?

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7 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

Can you imagine the political outcry from the 50 state governors had Trump ordered the nation as a whole shut down to stop the spread?  

Yes.  It would be loud, and yet if he had done it, Trump would have already secured his next term and even people like me would be singing his praises the way so many conservatives are now happy with Trudeau and Ardern and Newsom for their leadership.  Instead, he is one of about 4 world leaders to already destroy the rally-round-the-flag bump and his approval rating is lower than ALL the governors.

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3 minutes ago, Amati said:

Just curious- you flew to Seattle and back a while back, if I’m not mistaken- were you tested upon your return?  Ever?  Or is this yet another case of not enough tests?

My wife made me drive home when it became obvious the airport wasn't going to be a great place to be.  3 days in the last Prius at the airport, including sleeping two nights in a rest stop parking lot.

There were zero tests here then, and there are still very few here and they are only available if you are symptomatic as of a few days ago.

Ironically my boss told me that my co-workers were too nervous for me to come back in the office given Washington's nature as a hot spot.  That office is now located dead center in the worst outbreak in the state outside of detroit.  And yeah it has been closed since a couple days after I got back. 

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46 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:
52 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

I have been saying this exact thing for years.  But yet instead of doing it, the solution instead seems to point fingers at the people who DID have parents who gave early instruction at home with the accusation of "white privilege".  It helps nothing other than shutting off the conversation and that's my entire fucking point here.  

So, do all the millions of middle class and well to do black families that provide at home instruction and learning and nutrition and such from an early age for their children and their children go to college to become Dr's and Engineers.... are they also the product of "white privilege"??  

Yes to the first half of your question, the second half doesn't warrant a reply.  

There was no question in my first paragraph.  Just saying.  

And why doesn't my question about middle class and well off black parents doing the same thing as middle class and well off white parents warrant a reply?  

And you do realize dontcha, that there are YUGE swaths of poor white rural kids who have shit parents who don't nurture them at early ages, don't read to them, are uninvolved in their lives and therefore start 2 years behind in school and never catch up and have similar outcomes in life as urban blacks?  What about them?  Don't they count too?  I'll bet there are some poor white folks in the Ozarks who are bitching about "black privilege" when they see a nice middle class black family in a nice suburban neighborhood.  Or not.  

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1 minute ago, hrothgar said:

I generally think there is plenty of blame to go around...a lot clearly rests with Trump's inaction.  But, you can toss in the governors too, as well as the House of Representatives.  Can you imagine the political outcry from the 50 state governors had Trump ordered the nation as a whole shut down to stop the spread?  Governors generally don't like to be told what to do and also sadly, often point fingers at the Feds when they can't solve their problems.  It more complicated than just saying Trump failed.

Hroth

Normally I would agree with you, but n this circumstance, his rallies, golfing and general travel around the world' after he was told, briefed and basically had "this is gonna be bad" tattooed on his forehead, proves that he did not act.

 The fact that we do not have testing, or apparently anything resembling testing on the scale needed proves that he does not give a shit.  

The fact that we do not have testing on every damn street corner, but billions have gone to corporate entities instead, proves that he only cares about $$

Do your elk realize that if you suck it up for another week, and we get proper testing,  the economy can possibly roar back rather quickly, but if you cut hair for (20 people say) and they go out and mingle and somehow you have it..  guess what, we are gonna all be locked down for another month...  

Stop, get tested, if you are immune, then knock yourself out, go volunteer at a hospital or old folks home whatever..  but until then, 

 

STAY THE FUCK INSIDE!!!!!!

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

My wife made me drive home when it became obvious the airport wasn't going to be a great place to be.  3 days in the last Prius at the airport, including sleeping two nights in a rest stop parking lot.

There were zero tests here then, and there are still very few here and they are only available if you are symptomatic as of a few days ago.

Your wife is very smart, not that either of you needed my affirmation.

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