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Restarting America Means People Will Die. So When Should We Do It?


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5 hours ago, frenchie said:

Where do you find this shit?  r/conspiracy? davidicke.com?

His accent tells me he's not anywhere near the tri-state...

Swapping other deaths as covid doesn't explain why NYC had 4x a normal month's worth of deaths last month. 

And maybe he's never seen bodies loaded with a forklift into tractor-trailers, but we just had a mortician tell us that it's not all that unusual. 

"Look at our ventilators"  -  and then he goes on, himself, to clarify that those aren't the same kind of ventilators that there's shortages of.  You can't argue both points at the same time, duh.

Guy's astoundingly knucklehead for a supposed doctor.

Being a doctor is no guarantee or sensibility, capability, or ability beyond the task right in front of them.

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Q.E.D

 

Also, the name the give the guy who graduates last in his class from medical school?

Also "doctor."

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You're a smart guy. You're obviously aware that New Zealand is a suburb of Bondi, just round the corner from Random's joint in Queensland.  BJ can just yell over the fence at him.  Yes, the USA i

As much as I agree with the concept, I don't think it's possible to have a rational national discussion.  I don't think there's an appetite for a rational discussion on this board, let alone the great

Of course what I think has not bearing.  But the example was raised and I am free to render my opinion--if Bus Driver didn't want a reaction, he wouldn't have posted that.   I actually feel sorry for

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2 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I wish to be able to varnish.

i just laid down the 12 coat on my tiller yesterday....it will be the nicest thing on my boat when I get to go back to it ;-)

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4 hours ago, Fakenews said:
4 hours ago, chum said:

Again with the Republican thing I think I said it here probably 100 times here I’ve never once voted Republican in my life. So there’s that.

troll?

Your voting Lyndon LaRouche David Duke, Ran Paul, and Pat Buchanan doesn’t mean your not a douchebag republican..

And does anyone believe him, anyway?

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4 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

I have been saying this exact thing for years.  But yet instead of doing it, the solution instead seems to point fingers at the people who DID have parents who gave early instruction at home with the accusation of "white privilege".  It helps nothing other than shutting off the conversation and that's my entire fucking point here.  

So, do all the millions of middle class and well to do black families that provide at home instruction and learning and nutrition and such from an early age for their children and their children go to college to become Dr's and Engineers.... are they also the product of "white privilege"??  

Willful ignorance.

On your part, I mean. Not as the answer to your question. Which has been answered repeatedly.

You simply refuse the definition of "white privilege" which has been explained to you repeatedly, and are expecting us to chase you around the field after your own goalposts.

Kind of a silly and pointless discussion when you won't actually take the time to research or understand the concept you are railing against.

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4 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

And I am more than well clued in that I had the luck to have well educated parents who both came from extremely modest working class families and who valued the concepts of nurturing and educating children from an early age and being involved in their lives.

And this has fuck-all to do with White Privilege. JFC, how many different ways and times do we have to explain it to you?

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4 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

 

I hates to break it to you all.... but pretty much every damn one of you here reading this are the product of "white privilege".  And you are no more or less clued in than I am.  And you are doing precisely fuck all about it other than talking about it, wringing your hands, being triggered and pointing fingers.  Bunch of hypocritical cunts, you be.  

When are you going to figure out that Economic Privilege <> White Privilege? Probably never, is my guess.

Your whole post is so loaded with latent racism, it's no wonder we can't get this through your thick skull.

NEWSFLASH: Did you know that there are White People with more than one "baby daddy?" There are white men who have more than one "baby mama?"

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4 hours ago, shaggy said:

Once here is enough testing, sure.  You are risking lives for basically nothing if you open shit up now.  It's really easy...  suck it up for another week or so.  The states that got it early are showing good #'s, yours is not and you have zero idea what is going on because of ...  TESTING....!!!

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Isolation works.

NZ has dropped from a peak two weeks ago to about 5 new cases a day.

And they are still maintaining level 4 lockdown until next Tuesday. And level 3 for two weeks after that.

You can suck it up and take the hard pill now, your you can drag it out and take it over and over again for months.

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25 minutes ago, dacapo said:

i just laid down the 12 coat on my tiller yesterday....it will be the nicest thing on my boat when I get to go back to it ;-)

The exterior wood on our boat needs refreshing. We're still not in full lockdown, so I could go there and work on it, but I'm feeling lazy and the temperature isn't perfect. Plus I'm lazy. 

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4 hours ago, shaggy said:

All this yelling, hand wringing etc could have been tamped down if the frigging idiot in charge had acted.  Just acted, not stepped in and saved shit, it is not black and white, but just acted like a professional human.  He did not, he is not and he will not.  There are no tests because he did not act, I could go on, but hos failings have been posted 1000 times before, That is the truth.  Now add in an enabling senate..  how is any of this ok?  Bring it down to brass tax..  HOW, ON GODS GREEN EARTH, IS ANY OF THIS OK?   People have died, weather 44,000 or 1 you are marginalizing taxpayers lives.   I beg my fellow anarchists that lean right to explain.....  

It's amazing how quickly the "All Lives Matter" crowd has gone all Lord Farquaad about the economy.

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:
4 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

  I'll bet there are some poor white folks in the Ozarks who are bitching about "black privilege" when they see a nice middle class black family in a nice suburban neighborhood. 

I'll take that bet.  

There are no poor white folks bitching about black privilege.  They are bitching about "those fucking niggers".

What Jeff fails to grasps, too, is that you could take those poor white folks, clean 'em up, stick 'em in a suit, and walk them into any bank or store in America and they'd not draw one eye flick from security. Put them on a street corner in a city and they'll get the first passing cab.

He fundamentally fails to grasp the concept of White Privilege, but the term offends him so much that he's going to rail against it and refuse to learn about it or accept it forever, it seems.

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3 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:
3 hours ago, chum said:
4 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

I agree with BJ.  It's never ok.  

It ok to attack people’s elderly parents though? Seems a bit of a double standard. Not that you do it, just see it a lot here.

No, I don't believe it's ok to attack ANY member of a person's family here that is not participating in the conversation.  Wife, mother, father, child, cousin, etc should be off limits IMHO irregardless if they were mentioned in the conversation.  It's the sign of a weak mind and a weak character.  

Although we know that chum is dumb as a stump, I would like to see who is attacking elderly parents and where.

Pointing out that Trumpster fuck-sticks rushing to re-open the country are willing to kill off old people isn't attacking anyone's elders.

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6 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Although we know that chum is dumb as a stump, I would like to see who is attacking elderly parents and where.

Pointing out that Trumpster fuck-sticks rushing to re-open the country are willing to kill off old people isn't attacking anyone's elders.

Imagine if it was, though?  Can’t you imagine it?  It’s an outrage!

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21 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Although we know that chum is dumb as a stump, I would like to see who is attacking elderly parents and where.

Pointing out that Trumpster fuck-sticks rushing to re-open the country are willing to kill off old people isn't attacking anyone's elders.

My parents are long since dead.  Start attacking the elders in my family and that’s me.  I am the oldest living member of my and my wife’s families.  That includes brothers, sisters, spouses thereof, kids, grandkids, cousins and their spouses, etc.

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8 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

My parents are long since dead.  Start attacking the elders in my family and that’s me.  I am the oldest living member of my and my wife’s families.  That includes brothers, sisters, spouses thereof, kids, grandkids, cousins and their spouses, etc.

So are you prepared to sacrifice yourself for Hroth's 401K, you old coot?

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

So are you prepared to sacrifice yourself for Hroth's 401K, you old coot?

Let me put this in the most delicate, diplomatic terms possible: fuck no.  Sorry, my native NJ keeps slipping out. 

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6 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Then you, sir, are an America-hating socialist.

Do I get a button or shirt or a hat as a sign of membership? Is there a secret handshake?

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

NEWSFLASH: Did you know that there are White People with more than one "baby daddy?" There are white men who have more than one "baby mama?"

Yes, my point exactly.  When did their white privilege kick in to help them?

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:
5 hours ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

We're ALL going to die.  Some sooner than others.

Of course we are. But I'd rather not sacrifice the next 10-15 years with my parents for a momentary uptick in the DJIA.

I wonder if you'll still think this when your children are living through the next Great Depression?

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4 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

NEWSFLASH: Did you know that there are White People with more than one "baby daddy?" There are white men who have more than one "baby mama?"

Yes, my point exactly.  When did their white privilege kick in to help them?

When they apply for a job. When they get stopped by the cops. When they take their kids to the movies. The list is endless.

Are you really this thick?

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4 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

I wonder if you'll still think this when your children are living through the next Great Depression?

Yes, I will. I would rather not murder my parents for some temporary financial security. Would you murder your own for that? Or is it just mine that are OK for that?

There is more in the world than money.

Money can be replaced. People can not.

This is a test we have failed in the U.S. That we are even having this discussion demonstrates the moral vacuity of much of the American electorate.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

What Jeff fails to grasps, too, is that you could take those poor white folks, clean 'em up, stick 'em in a suit, and walk them into any bank or store in America and they'd not draw one eye flick from security. Put them on a street corner in a city and they'll get the first passing cab.

He fundamentally fails to grasp the concept of White Privilege, but the term offends him so much that he's going to rail against it and refuse to learn about it or accept it forever, it seems.

I don't deny any of that is true.  I've been well aware of that for pretty much forever.  I've never once said otherwise.  Now what?  What does my awareness of this white privilege accomplish.  What does your pointing out that you and I have white privilege every other fucking sentence?  

My awareness of it is not going to change how I act or think.  I don't in any way personally discriminate against blacks or hispanics.  I don't run a bank that gives out loans, or redline against blacks.  In fact I have a black tenant in one of my rentals right now.  I certainly could have discriminated against him and his family but I didn't.  It never even crossed my mind.  

What is the point of the hurled accusations of white privilege accomplishing Beej???  Seriously?  Is it about making someone feel that burn of white guilt?  Well, sorry - I don't and I'm not likely to.  But it still doesn't mean that my lack of guilt makes me a racist. 

So, what is this shit all about?  For instance, over on the voter ID thread - I was listing the things I needed an ID for such as buying a house, a car, getting a bank account, setting up utilities, getting a loan, etc - you know pretty much normal everyday fucking activities of life when you move to a new town.  And I was accused of having "white privilege" because I was doing those things?  REALLY?  WTF is that all about?  

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5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

When they apply for a job. When they get stopped by the cops. When they take their kids to the movies. The list is endless.

Are you really this thick?

I know a lot of white trash I would not hire over a well dressed, well spoken black kid.  Lots of white men get stopped by the cops and go to jail.

And movies???  Are blacks barred from the movies?  I was not aware of this.  Please explain.  

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5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Yes, I will. I would rather not murder my parents for some temporary financial security. Would you murder your own for that? Or is it just mine that are OK for that?

There is more in the world than money.

Money can be replaced. People can not.

This is a test we have failed in the U.S. That we are even having this discussion demonstrates the moral vacuity of much of the American electorate.

Who's talking about murdering your parents???  Certainly not me or anyone I've seen discussing reopening the economy.  If they are that vulnerable, then quarantine them and protect them.  Why shouldn't just the most vulnerable be in lockdown instead of everyone?

If you think you can keep everyone or even a significant portion of the population from getting CV-19, you're an idiot.  I'm not saying NOW is the right time to open up, I'll leave that to actual scientists and experts.  But it has to open sooner rather than later.  And no, we cannot stay in lockdown for a year to protect your parents.  Or mine.  If it means they are more at risk as a result, then the greater good needs to be served.  You're being a selfish cunt for wanting to ruin millions upon millions of lives and condemn them to a great depression for them and their children in order to save your parents.  That^^ is the very epitome of selfish prick.  

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21 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

So, what is this shit all about?  For instance, over on the voter ID thread - I was listing the things I needed an ID for such as buying a house, a car, getting a bank account, setting up utilities, getting a loan, etc - you know pretty much normal everyday fucking activities of life when you move to a new town.  And I was accused of having "white privilege" because I was doing those things?  REALLY?  WTF is that all about?  

You will never, ever get that your "normal" is not everyone's "normal", will you?

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4 hours ago, mikewof said:

These are really good examples of people looking for relationships with "poor" data ... small sample sizes, incomplete data. Some of these may be dead ends, some may not.

Small samples, but at least we have complete data on the samples.

Instead of randomly incomplete, missing 25% to 99% of the data, without even an estimate of how much is missing from which location(s), age(s), diagnosis(es)... 

4 hours ago, mikewof said:

Assuming we can learn anything from Chinese research on this, deaths often seem connected to lung damage, coinfections, pollution.

Have you actually looked at any papers, RE co-infection?  It's not a large proportion of the cases, and it's mostly viral, not bacterial.  Co-infection in general, and bacterial co-infection specifically... it's a much lower share than with influenza, or H1N1.

 
 
 
 
4 hours ago, mikewof said:

I think I see a little better where your objection is though. I'm not suggesting that NYC's possible lack of pneumonia diagnosis has anything to do with that high death rate,

No, that's not my objection at all. 

My objection is that you started with a faulty premise (ignoring the definition of the word "pneumonia"), and piled a bunch of incorrect assumptions on top of it... ignoring what your data source had to say about the data.

I had to fucking hammer you with CDC quotes to make you begin to consider that you might be on a totally wrong path.  And it kinda feels like we're not even done yet, gonna have to revisit the definition of "pneumonia" again?  I mean, fuck... I'm tired, ya stubborn old mule! 

 
 
 
 
4 hours ago, mikewof said:

One thing though, the lack of connection to smoking doesn't surprise me too much.

It surprised me, after all the speculation that China and Italy's higher mortalities were due to their higher smoking rates...

 

 
 
 
1
4 hours ago, mikewof said:

Current filters on cigarettes are so good that they lop off the course mode particulates leaving mostly accumulation mode particulates. Smoking increasingly becomes a danger to cardiovascular health rather than just lung health. The new and emerging threat to lungs is vape and ozone pollution. The vape changes the surface energy of the lung tissue, and the ozone breaks cell bonds and causes permanent scarring and loss of elasticity. For all we know, at this time next year, when the data is in, we may find that being outdoors a lot in polluted places tended to kill off people via SARS-CoV-2. 

Uh-oh?  I still roll my own; no filters... 

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2 hours ago, dacapo said:

i just laid down the 12 coat on my tiller yesterday....it will be the nicest thing on my boat when I get to go back to it ;-)

How do you lay down 12 coats in a day? Every varnish I've used (not water based) requires each coat to be dry before the next. Do tell.

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20 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:
28 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

When they apply for a job. When they get stopped by the cops. When they take their kids to the movies. The list is endless.

Are you really this thick?

I know a lot of white trash I would not hire over a well dressed, well spoken black kid.  Lots of white men get stopped by the cops and go to jail.

And movies???  Are blacks barred from the movies?  I was not aware of this.  Please explain.  

Apparently you ARE this thick.

This is not about YOUR personal actions. It's a larger systemic thing in our society and culture.

And again, you have not listened to (or at least understood) anything I've written or linked for you to read.

WRT to movies - do you really think the treatment of black characters versus white characters is even remotely equitable? That before the last decade or so there was anything close to representation for POC as strong, lead characters in movies and media?

Of course you do, because you are white AF and do not notice or care about these things. Yes, there are exceptions you can feel free to cherry pick. But on the whole, and we're dealing with societal trends here, not individual actions or cases, POC have not had strong, positive representation in movies.

Why is this important?

But to a parent of a black child, are you giving your kids the right message showing them movies when all the black men on screen are sacrificial stereotypes or comic relief, and all the strong capable heroes are white?

Are you sending the right message to white kids, even?

That you can take your kids to the movies and not worry that they will see people like their father ridiculed or treated as disposable is white privilege.

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11 minutes ago, bhyde said:

How do you lay down 12 coats in a day? Every varnish I've used (not water based) requires each coat to be dry before the next. Do tell.

I assume he meant '12th coat' and not 12 coats - but maybe he's got a good trick :)

 

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28 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

Who's talking about murdering your parents???  Certainly not me or anyone I've seen discussing reopening the economy.  If they are that vulnerable, then quarantine them and protect them.  Why shouldn't just the most vulnerable be in lockdown instead of everyone?

If you think you can keep everyone or even a significant portion of the population from getting CV-19, you're an idiot.  I'm not saying NOW is the right time to open up, I'll leave that to actual scientists and experts.  But it has to open sooner rather than later.  And no, we cannot stay in lockdown for a year to protect your parents.  Or mine.  If it means they are more at risk as a result, then the greater good needs to be served.  You're being a selfish cunt for wanting to ruin millions upon millions of lives and condemn them to a great depression for them and their children in order to save your parents.  That^^ is the very epitome of selfish prick.  

You are.

You are literally suggesting I would regret protecting my parents if it caused an economic depression, and instead I would have wished they had more risk of dying.

The very definition of a selfish cunt is someone who will risk others dying because of a little inconvenience.

If you locked up the USA tighter than Mike Pence's asshole at a pride parade it would make a dramatic difference in the outcome after a month or two. This is demonstrably true.

But a lot of people are not willing to tolerate that in order to save a few thousand lives. That's about as selfish as you can possibly get. YOU or your parents must take a chance on dying so I can go shopping whenever I want. Bullshit.

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17 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:
39 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

So, what is this shit all about?  For instance, over on the voter ID thread - I was listing the things I needed an ID for such as buying a house, a car, getting a bank account, setting up utilities, getting a loan, etc - you know pretty much normal everyday fucking activities of life when you move to a new town.  And I was accused of having "white privilege" because I was doing those things?  REALLY?  WTF is that all about?  

You will never, ever get that your "normal" is not everyone's "normal", will you?

I mean, that is literally what white privilege is, and you demonstrate how big yours every damned time you argue your points.

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6 hours ago, shaggy said:

All this yelling, hand wringing etc could have been tamped down if the frigging idiot in charge had acted.  Just acted, not stepped in and saved shit, it is not black and white, but just acted like a professional human.  He did not, he is not and he will not.  There are no tests because he did not act, I could go on, but hos failings have been posted 1000 times before, That is the truth.  Now add in an enabling senate..  how is any of this ok?  Bring it down to brass tax..  HOW, ON GODS GREEN EARTH, IS ANY OF THIS OK?   People have died, weather 44,000 or 1 you are marginalizing taxpayers lives.   I beg my fellow anarchists that lean right to explain.....  

Brass tacks :)

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10 hours ago, chum said:

I noticed awhile ago it’s all about winning for some here, not discourse. Like Snaggs sig line says; it’s a game of three card Monty, and you picked the wrong card.

To be fair, you *did* start with a 30 IQ point handicap.... and that's WRT *Meli*.

FKT

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

When they apply for a job. When they get stopped by the cops. When they take their kids to the movies. The list is endless.

Are you really this thick?

I rather think he's using the Socratic method to demonstrate the point.

Your entire society, and all its members, including you, are irredeemably racist. You can't even conceive of anything that's not race based. You can't see any path to a future where race doesn't matter.

Yet race is almost totally a complete bullshit construct. Economic circumstance is quantifiable; race isn't. Not ONE of you were willing to explain how a woman with a Jamaican father and Indian mother was 'black', for example.  Not only that but your educational institutions have bought into it so thoroughly that they use all sorts of non-academic criteria that they can bias so as to get the 'correct' racial types in and, as it's an inherently zero-sum game, keep others out. This is just plain wrong on so many levels.

And those with the money are going to do everything they can to make sure that them & theirs prosper regardless.

What would I do? Double-blind entrance exam system. No identifying data on race, gender, sex preference et al. No bonus points for playing some sport, or a parent who was an alumnus. Just - how well do you score in the stuff that matters in your preferred field? So writing a wonderful essay is great if you want to go into a literate area but of little weight for science, engineering and math fields where numeracy is much more relevant. And don't start on how scientists & engineers need to know how to write well - they do, it's true, but if they aren't highly numerate, they're not scientists or engineers. Writing well is a second order - at best - requirement.

Yep this would discriminate against the poorly educated. Tough shit - the solution to *that* is to fix the early education system not fuck about at University level where you in theory want the best & brightest. So you'd still have privilege but it'd be based on economics, not the ability for someone with a shitload of money to buy a place their child couldn't get on competitive academic merit.

And I'll admit my bias - I and my first wife got what you guys refer to as 'full ride' scholarships based on our final year high school exam results. Otherwise we'd never have gotten there; someone with wealthy parents could have bought those places.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:

I know a lot of white trash I would not hire over a well dressed, well spoken black kid.  Lots of white men get stopped by the cops and go to jail.

 

You can't be this dumb, can you? Very white of you to say you would hire 'a well dressed, well spoken black kid' over some white trash. How about an average dressed, average spoken black? I guess all white trash would be better in your eyes than someone like that. I take back my first sentence, you are that dumb. You just can't see that you hold racist views.

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3 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

What Jeff fails to grasps, too, is that you could take those poor white folks, clean 'em up, stick 'em in a suit, and walk them into any bank or store in America and they'd not draw one eye flick from security. Put them on a street corner in a city and they'll get the first passing cab.

He fundamentally fails to grasp the concept of White Privilege, but the term offends him so much that he's going to rail against it and refuse to learn about it or accept it forever, it seems.

I think you're writing something that is as ignorant as you claim is JBSF.

If you took a poor black guy, sent hi to the spa for a couple hours then put him in some Brooks Bothers and Ferragamos that he would sail just as easily through the bank or a a cabstand.

Racism isn't just about the color of the skin, it's a kind of economic assault on poor people. Neither that poor Black man or the poor Caucasian guy would likely do well at the bank's loan desk if they were in their uniform of Nascar gear or hip-hop gear. It's just the Black guy has a disproportionate chance to find himself needing to be cleaned up and put in a suit, because our country is built fro the foundation on laws that will do their best to keep poor folk of any color, trapped in their holes. And that sir, is something from you you benefit just as much as JBSF or me.

That JBSF is getting lectured by some asshole in Colorado and some slightly lighter weight asshole on an expensive 8KSB in the South Pacific is really the most amusing part of this. You're in no position to school Jeff because you come from the essentially the same pot of $5 lard that he does.

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

How do you lay down 12 coats in a day? Every varnish I've used (not water based) requires each coat to be dry before the next. Do tell.

not in a day

3 weeks ago, took off all old varnish.

then like any normal brightwork...

usually a coat a day with light sanding in between coats ...2 days in between if its colder or damp out...Im up to the final coat

 

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10 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not in a day

3 weeks ago, took off all old varnish.

then like any normal brightwork...

usually a coat a day with light sanding in between coats ...2 days in between if its colder or damp out...Im up to the final coat

 

I hung a sex swing in my basement.  Not quite the same but productive.

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14 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not in a day

3 weeks ago, took off all old varnish.

then like any normal brightwork...

usually a coat a day with light sanding in between coats ...2 days in between if its colder or damp out...Im up to the final coat

 

Jesus. I thought I'd been doing wrong all these years. Close one.

I've used the water-based stuff from Flecto Varathane and it work very well, except it doesn't last as long as good 'ol oil-based varnish and has a slightly milky color. It does however dry really fast and doesn't require sanding between coats. Varnish just looks better though. Party on...

 

Edit: BTW, I found using steel or brass wool to sand between coats is much easier than sand paper.

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13 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I hung a sex swing in my basement.  Not quite the same but productive.

For varnishing?

Wow, that's either really sick or pure genius. I'll have to try it myself and let you know

- DSK

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2 hours ago, frenchie said:

Small samples, but at least we have complete data on the samples.

Instead of randomly incomplete, missing 25% to 99% of the data, without even an estimate of how much is missing from which location(s), age(s), diagnosis(es)... 

Complete data? You're suggesting that it's better to have a small data set with less error than a large data with more error. I can tell you from experience, you never know that until you do some error analysis with a random variable in a stochastics test. Even with all of the earth's mountains, valleys and magnetic distension, the Earth is still more proportionately round and smooth than a polished billiard ball.

I have read several papers on viral/bacterial coinfections with coronavirus and a rhinovirus infection. I have noticed a lot more work on viral/viral, but it doesn't seem to be because there is less of a problem with viral/bacterial, but rather because viral/viral is a bigger problem in industrialized countries. But in Developing Nations, bacteria is the deeper kettle of fish, it gets really weird when parasites like malaria get involved, because they can be deadly without the coinfection, but then have been noted to offer a kind of inoculation with the coinfection.

You keep trying to convince me that my "premise" is wrong, which is what a non-scientist does. A scientist rarely gives a rat's ass if the premise is wrong, but rather how difficult is it going to be TEST the premise? You keep insisting that I'm wrong. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right. All that matters if what the research shows. People don't get to decide who is wrong or right, the measurement decides who is wrong or right.

The nature of pneumonia is changing because the nature of the things that produce the pneumonia have changed. In the 1950s, people could see pneumonia on an x-ray because lots of course-mode particulates show up well on x-ray. Now, we've swapped bimodal distributions for largely submicron distributions. In many cases the particulates are sufficiently small compared to to the wavelength of visible light that we no longer even test for them. Accumulation mode particulates don't do what course mode particulates did. Up to 50% of pneumonia cases are x-ray negative because of the lack of hydration in the patient, and the lack of hydration sphere in the infiltrates. (You're smart to smoke unfiltered.)

These problems are tractable, but they need examination. You have this idea that the physics of a system can't and shouldn't be examined unless the data is gathered in much the same way as all the other systems. That's not only an unattainable luxury, but it's also kind of a meaningless one. If other data corroborates what the CDC data suggests, then that might mean something about the CDC data itself. And this is a key point ... if the CDC data is as unreliable and useless for measurement as you seem to suggest, then that could be part of the problem. If clinicians can't learn from large data sets, then how can they do the part of their job that relies on large data sets?

The reason I'm "stubborn" with this point, is because if everyone followed your arbitrary and dictatorial rules for what data should look like, then we would likely know a lot less than we do now about all kinds of things. Contrary to popular opinion, not all experiments are like the Michaelson-Morley experiment ... a lot of key findings were made with low-resolution data and lots of error. Imagine the discovery of one of Interferon's forerunners, made by looking at poorly thawed ice core samples. The process was completely "wrong" and in doing it the wrong way, we all were given the gift of understanding signaling proteins.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

I think you're writing something that is as ignorant as you claim is JBSF.

If you took a poor black guy, sent hi to the spa for a couple hours then put him in some Brooks Bothers and Ferragamos that he would sail just as easily through the bank or a a cabstand.

Racism isn't just about the color of the skin, it's a kind of economic assault on poor people. Neither that poor Black man or the poor Caucasian guy would likely do well at the bank's loan desk if they were in their uniform of Nascar gear or hip-hop gear. It's just the Black guy has a disproportionate chance to find himself needing to be cleaned up and put in a suit, because our country is built fro the foundation on laws that will do their best to keep poor folk of any color, trapped in their holes. And that sir, is something from you you benefit just as much as JBSF or me.

That JBSF is getting lectured by some asshole in Colorado and some slightly lighter weight asshole on an expensive 8KSB in the South Pacific is really the most amusing part of this. You're in no position to school Jeff because you come from the essentially the same pot of $5 lard that he does.

If there one thing that Mikey knows about it’s an 8ksb.  Never mind that all he’s ever sailed was a snark.

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:
2 hours ago, mikewof said:

Complete data? You're suggesting that it's better to have a small data set with less error than a large data with more error. I can tell you from experience, you never know that until you do some error analysis with a random variable in a stochastics test. Even with all of the earth's mountains, valleys and magnetic distension, the Earth is still more proportionately round and smooth than a polished billiard ball.

Yes, that is what I was suggesting, and I'm sorta surprised to learn that the planet's more proportionately round than a billiard ball  -  I thought it was sorta egg-shaped?  And that the billard ball was smoother, yeah. 

But when we don't know how incomplete the data is, or isn't, only that some of it is 99% incomplete.... how the heck can that be useful?  You can't even tell if you're looking at a billiard ball or a cube!

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

You keep trying to convince me that my "premise" is wrong, which is what a non-scientist does. A scientist rarely gives a rat's ass if the premise is wrong, but rather how difficult is it going to be TEST the premise? You keep insisting that I'm wrong. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right. All that matters if what the research shows. People don't get to decide who is wrong or right, the measurement decides who is wrong or right.

I'm saying your hypothesis was based on a gross misunderstanding & misrepresentation of the data you were claiming supported the hypothesis. 

You never bothered to read the notes and guidance to understand what you were looking at. You directly contradicted what the CDC said about their data.  And you did it repeatedly.  You claimed the data was more complete.  You claimed it was up to date.  You claimed one could make valid comparisons between data from different States.  

I'm not saying your "premise" is "wrong".  I'm saying the argument you made in support of your hypothesis, was absolute gibberish to anyone who'd read the notes & guidance, and had a vague clue of what the CDC says the data represents & doesn't represent. 

It was like walking in on someone looking at the famous Pale Blue Dot photo from Voyageur, and talking about how you can see the asteroid belt or some shit  -  when NASA fuckin tells you the bands are from light scatter, just an artifact of the photographic equipment.

cq838CbRUYLxPLbkx8LaQV-1200-80.jpg

Or the zoomed-in shot, claiming that the dark band surrounding the earth shows how polluted the air is... or pondering why the earth looks so lumpy and misshapen...

yxveenbdqevib9cocund.jpg

I'm going to stop for a minute, because the pain-in-the-ass forum software's been giving me grief.

 

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I don't know wtf that's all about,  it kept inserting emojis into the quote boxes, then telling me I can't post those characters as emojis... and if I try to delete the emoji, the format of the whole quote went fucking screwy  -  about 10 characters wide, and overlapping the rest of the post, all the way down.  WTF?

 

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

And this is a key point ... if the CDC data is as unreliable and useless for measurement as you seem to suggest, then that could be part of the problem. If clinicians can't learn from large data sets, then how can they do the part of their job that relies on large data sets?

I'm not saying it's unreliable and useless, I'm saying (well, repeating the CDC saying, really) that it's unreliable and useless for what you're trying to do with it. The problem isn't the data, it's your misguided attempt to use it for something completely different.  The data neither supports NOR disproves your hypothesis.  It doesn't show or even suggest anything, one way or the other.  Because there was no effort to collect it in such a way as to make it useful for what you're trying to do with it.  

The data is perfectly useful for it's intended purpose (within the stated limitations): keeping track of a new disease's prevalence, detecting hotspots, providing early warning about localized outbreaks.

Nails aren't shitty screws, they're nails.  Stop grinding grooves into the heads & trying to screw them in with a screwdriver: pound them in with the hammer, or go back to the hardware store and buy screws this time. 
 

 
 
 
 
2 hours ago, mikewof said:

a lot of key findings were made with low-resolution data and lots of error. Imagine the discovery of one of Interferon's forerunners, made by looking at poorly thawed ice core samples. The process was completely "wrong" and in doing it the wrong way, we all were given the gift of understanding signaling proteins.

Got a link, or a better keyword to search with?  I'm not familiar with the experiment(s) you're talking about. 

I just read up (after searching) on the 1957 experiments where they discovered interferon, but it sounds like you're talking about something else.  Interferon forerunners...?

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10 minutes ago, frenchie said:

I don't know wtf that's all about,  it kept inserting emojis into the quote boxes, then telling me I can't post those characters as emojis... and if I try to delete the emoji, the format of the whole quote went fucking screwy  -  about 10 characters wide, and overlapping the rest of the post, all the way down.  WTF?

 

Perhaps the universe knows you are arguing with a fencepost and is trying to tell you something.

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

I don't know wtf that's all about,  it kept inserting emojis into the quote boxes, then telling me I can't post those characters as emojis... and if I try to delete the emoji, the format of the whole quote went fucking screwy  -  about 10 characters wide, and overlapping the rest of the post, all the way down.  WTF?

 

I try to upvote, the site downvotes.  Emojis like to pop up 2 at a time, but if I tap on the one I want, the unwanted emoji either moves down or disappears.  And when I hit ‘save’ it’s anyone’s guess how long it will take to upload.  These are not big problems, but I wind up in Twitterland.  I don’t like the Twitter universe as much, but it does keep my verse terse. :)  There!  See that?  It happened again!

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6 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

You will never, ever get that your "normal" is not everyone's "normal", will you?

So buying a car is "white privilege"?  Setting up utilties is WP?  

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I rather think he's using the Socratic method to demonstrate the point.

Your entire society, and all its members, including you, are irredeemably racist. You can't even conceive of anything that's not race based. You can't see any path to a future where race doesn't matter.

Yet race is almost totally a complete bullshit construct. Economic circumstance is quantifiable; race isn't. Not ONE of you were willing to explain how a woman with a Jamaican father and Indian mother was 'black', for example.  Not only that but your educational institutions have bought into it so thoroughly that they use all sorts of non-academic criteria that they can bias so as to get the 'correct' racial types in and, as it's an inherently zero-sum game, keep others out. This is just plain wrong on so many levels.

And those with the money are going to do everything they can to make sure that them & theirs prosper regardless.

What would I do? Double-blind entrance exam system. No identifying data on race, gender, sex preference et al. No bonus points for playing some sport, or a parent who was an alumnus. Just - how well do you score in the stuff that matters in your preferred field? So writing a wonderful essay is great if you want to go into a literate area but of little weight for science, engineering and math fields where numeracy is much more relevant. And don't start on how scientists & engineers need to know how to write well - they do, it's true, but if they aren't highly numerate, they're not scientists or engineers. Writing well is a second order - at best - requirement.

Yep this would discriminate against the poorly educated. Tough shit - the solution to *that* is to fix the early education system not fuck about at University level where you in theory want the best & brightest. So you'd still have privilege but it'd be based on economics, not the ability for someone with a shitload of money to buy a place their child couldn't get on competitive academic merit.

And I'll admit my bias - I and my first wife got what you guys refer to as 'full ride' scholarships based on our final year high school exam results. Otherwise we'd never have gotten there; someone with wealthy parents could have bought those places.

FKT

This.  Exactly this!

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21 minutes ago, Female Canine Firestorm said:
6 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

You will never, ever get that your "normal" is not everyone's "normal", will you?

So buying a car is "white privilege"?  Setting up utilties is WP?  

At this point, I believe you are being intentionally obtuse to yank my chain.

There is no way you are really this stupid.

Is there?

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Frenchie, I'm not sure what's happened to your posts, but the quote function doesn't work on them. Maybe it's all those characters your pasting in there, Meli-style.

Okay, so now I'm curious ... you keep writing that the CDC data isn't useful for what I'm looking at. So what do you think I'm looking at that makes the data useless?

That data can't "support or disprove" a hypothesis and I'm not asking it to do that. It seems that whole process offends you for some reason, and you want data in every step to be non-problematic. If preliminary data is problematic, you just don't use it, you move on. But you're essentially saying "don't even us it to get an idea what's going on." That NYC CDC data does mean something, sweeping it under the rug isn't necessary. If the research moves in the right direction, then the research presumably has a little juice to get some better data. I mentioned the CDC data to a lung researcher, he was familiar with it, and he didn't have the problems with it the way you have. The pneumonia diagnoses might mean something or maybe not. There is nothing wrong with making small errors, mild missteps and even blatant fuckups with research, because problems can be fixed. The only thing that cannot ever be fixed is inaction. Because the opportunity leaves and time-machines are not readily available during the quarantine ... I'm not sure if time machines were available before the quarantine, but they definitely aren't available now.

The ice core experiments ... I think it may have been one of the researchers who worked on Interferon, but I've never been able to find the reference,, and the ice-core researcher who found it isn't recorded in the history that I've seen. I heard about him back in about 1990, he was supposedly working in the lab, but he had some undergraduate experience in ice-cores and thus stumbled onto that.

 

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One of the things that happens when you're born into poverty in America is that you don't have a lot of social interconnects outside of a pretty local group of people.  Your social group consists mostly of relatives, a few friends, and sometimes you belong to a church or local community center.  Outside of that, it's usually public school.  There is structure in your home life but it's more ad hoc.

In the broader community, you don't fit it.  Your cloths aren't right.  Your haircut sucks.  The food you eat is often unsophisticated - some people call "disgusting".  You don't go on summer trips and when you do go, it's road trips to local areas.   You don't have clever anecdotes.  You don't get the jokes and your jokes fall flat.  Drugs and alcohol are usually pretty common.  That's your vacation - a few hours at a time.  You have the cheep laptop and the cheep cellphone with the cheep provider.  Your car, if you have one, is old and boring and breaks down a lot and adorned with cheep shit from 5-Below.  But its fast :)  But never fast enough.  You're always outnumbered.  Always.  You're always behind, trying to make up for the thousand little details you don't get.  That's all on top of the anxieties of being a normal kid.

Most people clump up with other people like themselves for that reason - even when it's bad.  To paraphrase Milton, It's better to be accepted in hell than rejected from heaven.  There's a huge difference between being allowed in, and being accepted.   And that reinforces your view of the world and the way the world views you.  To them, you're prey.  You have bad mobility - you're the deer that can't run away.  You don't HAVE choice.  To you, it's is fuck the world before it fucks me!

It's lonely to leave the only group of people that look and act like you and go into a world that at best 'doesn't get you' and at worst, doesn't like you a priori. Desperation and hope are required to drive that move.  That's why own prescriptions tends to focus on the reduction of barriers and facilitate organic creep rather than helicopter airlifts.

 

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1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

One of the things that happens when you're born into poverty in America is that you don't have a lot of social interconnects outside of a pretty local group of people.  Your social group consists mostly of relatives, a few friends, and sometimes you belong to a church or local community center.  Outside of that, it's usually public school.  There is structure in your home life but it's more ad hoc.

In the broader community, you don't fit it.  Your cloths aren't right.  Your haircut sucks.  The food you eat is often unsophisticated - some people call "disgusting".  You don't go on summer trips and when you do go, it's road trips to local areas.   You don't have clever anecdotes.  You don't get the jokes and your jokes fall flat.  Drugs and alcohol are usually pretty common.  That's your vacation - a few hours at a time.  You have the cheep laptop and the cheep cellphone with the cheep provider.  Your car, if you have one, is old and boring and breaks down a lot and adorned with cheep shit from 5-Below.  But its fast :)  But never fast enough.  You're always outnumbered.  Always.  You're always behind, trying to make up for the thousand little details you don't get.  That's all on top of the anxieties of being a normal kid.

Most people clump up with other people like themselves for that reason - even when it's bad.  To paraphrase Milton, It's better to be accepted in hell than rejected from heaven.  There's a huge difference between being allowed in, and being accepted.   And that reinforces your view of the world and the way the world views you.  To them, you're prey.  You have bad mobility - you're the deer that can't run away.  You don't HAVE choice.  To you, it's is fuck the world before it fucks me!

It's lonely to leave the only group of people that look and act like you and go into a world that at best 'doesn't get you' and at worst, doesn't like you a priori. Desperation and hope are required to drive that move.  That's why own prescriptions tends to focus on the reduction of barriers and facilitate organic creep rather than helicopter airlifts.

 

Which illuminates the Answer to The Question :rolleyes:, and in that light the Answer becomes ‘Where’, not ‘When’, overly-eager fresh ambitious blood yet again infected, not the nearly invisible old aloof families,  snickering iron-mongered hobgoblins hiding amongst the usual witnesses, the usual patsies standing patiently at lineup, bored out of their skulls, doing their usual duty to God, Graft, & Country.

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51 minutes ago, astro said:

Yep.  All well documented.

The only way out for a male is marriage to a rich girl.  It used to happen because nature ensured that there were more females born than males.  The females had to select good looking males from the lower class after all the others were taken.

Now they don't worry so much about marriage and it's not working.  Both gene pools are degenerating.

Coin operated impecunious boy toys are not exactly new, but any family discipline surrounding them, on both sides, I agree has waned.  The whole thing is more casual.  But when do unctuous formalities demand their inflamed rituals?  

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13 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Is it too much to expect people to be able to spell "people" in addition to the state in which they live?

I say we reopen the states so these morans can go to remedial spelling class.

poaple.jpg

The Ghost Dance is back, protected by Donald J Trump.  Face protection optional, of course.

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2 hours ago, Amati said:
2 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Is it too much to expect people to be able to spell "people" in addition to the state in which they live?

I say we reopen the states so these morans can go to remedial spelling class.

poaple.jpg

The Ghost Dance is back, protected by Donald J Trump.  Face protection optional, of course.

She's probably just keeping her chins warm.

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4 hours ago, cmilliken said:

One of the things that happens when you're born into poverty in America is that you don't have a lot of social interconnects outside of a pretty local group of people.  Your social group consists mostly of relatives, a few friends, and sometimes you belong to a church or local community center.  Outside of that, it's usually public school.  There is structure in your home life but it's more ad hoc.

 In the broader community, you don't fit it.  Your cloths aren't right.  Your haircut sucks.  The food you eat is often unsophisticated - some people call "disgusting".  You don't go on summer trips and when you do go, it's road trips to local areas.   You don't have clever anecdotes.  You don't get the jokes and your jokes fall flat.  Drugs and alcohol are usually pretty common.  That's your vacation - a few hours at a time.  You have the cheep laptop and the cheep cellphone with the cheep provider.  Your car, if you have one, is old and boring and breaks down a lot and adorned with cheep shit from 5-Below.  But its fast :)  But never fast enough.  You're always outnumbered.  Always.  You're always behind, trying to make up for the thousand little details you don't get.  That's all on top of the anxieties of being a normal kid.

That reads like "White engineer's idea of what it's like to be poor".  I'm guessing you have never seen the inside of a housing project.

 

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4 hours ago, astro said:

Yep.  All well documented.

The only way out for a male is marriage to a rich girl.  It used to happen because nature ensured that there were more females born than males.  The females had to select good looking males from the lower class after all the others were taken.

Now they don't worry so much about marriage and it's not working.  Both gene pools are degenerating.

nice word salad.  nothing more enlightening than white yachties talking about what it's like to be poor and black.

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Just now, cmilliken said:

Hug :)  Trailer park.

As a very aggressive ex-girlfriend used to tell me, "It's a FUCKING MODULAR HOME ASSHOLE" before putting on her ball gag.  She was very proud to own her own home at 23, and pay it off in just a year of dancing ;)

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

As a very aggressive ex-girlfriend used to tell me, "It's a FUCKING MODULAR HOME ASSHOLE" before putting on her ball gag.  She was very proud to own her own home at 23, and pay it off in just a year of dancing ;)

it was still "trailer park" in my day.  Not a lot of blacks, mostly Chicano farm workers and white-trash service folks.  Thanks for caring.

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2 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

it was still "trailer park" in my day.  Not a lot of blacks, mostly Chicano farm workers and white-trash service folks.  Thanks for caring.

Still very rare to see people of color in a trailer park in the midwest just as you won't see a lot of PWT in section 8 housing.  We live in a strange and fucked up place.

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7 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Still very rare to see people of color in a trailer park in the midwest just as you won't see a lot of PWT in section 8 housing.  We live in a strange and fucked up place.

It was SoCal.  That area was 40-40-20.   They've gussied the place up!

Of course, I'm lying anyway. Obviously, I'm "nothing more enlightening than white yachties talking about what it's like to be poor and black."

Yes, you are worth more in one hour than my mother was worth in a month.  I'm sure that makes you feel good.  Bye.

 

image.png.a0468318ca9b0cd47d620726acc77f06.png

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10 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

It was SoCal.  That area was 40-40-20.   They've gussied the place up!

Of course, I'm lying anyway. Obviously, I'm "nothing more enlightening than white yachties talking about what it's like to be poor and black."

Yes, you are worth more in one hour than my mother was worth in a month.  I'm sure that makes you feel good.  Bye.

 

image.png.a0468318ca9b0cd47d620726acc77f06.png

Maybe it was folks with pianos in Western Washington, but about 10% of my clients lived in places like ^^^^, kept them up nicely, strong community feeling.  More important, they could afford a piano, time to play, or a nicer car, tickets to music events, golf, visiting, that sort of thing- lot of retirees (like professors), young families with dreams for their kids, single parents, that sort of thing.  More than a few told me they could afford a life.  Rational choices.  

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8 minutes ago, Amati said:

Maybe it was folks with pianos in Western Washington, but about 10% of my clients lived in places like ^^^^, kept them up nicely, strong community feeling.  More important, they could afford a piano, time to play, or a nicer car, tickets to music events, golf, visiting, that sort of thing- lot of retirees (like professors), young families with dreams for their kids, single parents, that sort of thing.  More than a few told me they could afford a life.  Rational choices.  

In my case, it was what a single mom could afford.  $126 / month!  It wasn't until I left California as a late teen that I realized air conditioner compressors weren't SUPPOSE to go out every 3-4 years. That whole area has gotten 'gentrified'.  Even the sticks aren't the sticks anymore. It was what it was. My sister and I reminisce every now and then and we'll look up some of the places we lived on google maps.  She actually keeps a picture of the trailer on her desk as a reminder and as motivation.  For me, it's mostly numb.

 

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58 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

It was SoCal.  That area was 40-40-20.   They've gussied the place up!

Of course, I'm lying anyway. Obviously, I'm "nothing more enlightening than white yachties talking about what it's like to be poor and black."

Yes, you are worth more in one hour than my mother was worth in a month.  I'm sure that makes you feel good.  Bye.

 

image.png.a0468318ca9b0cd47d620726acc77f06.png

You're getting pretty triggered, not sure why.  I don't do a lot of judging people on economics.  We were on foods tamps when my dad left and happily wore the white trash badge.  if this is about measuring dicks on shitty living spaces, I probably have you beat.  I spent 3 months in and around this lovely abode. 

 

 

  

rockville_centre17.jpg

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