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This boat came up in the thread about "$80K boats" some months ago.

J-Bird111 has now been bought for restoration as a cruiser/racer - for sale at $30,000 it obviously had just a few issues.

https://www.facebook.com/JBirdIII/

Have a look at their face book page, especially the videos about the soggy decks. Be interesting to see where this ends up. Great CORONA project for two.

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For the money they will have to spend that was not a good choice.

I was talking to a TP52 owner at the fastener store a couple or three years ago. He had just bought a new carbon main for $47,000 USD. :o

Kind of puts that purchase price in perspective.

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I wondered what happened with that one.

2 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Fucking Jesus. If someone paid $30,000 for that boat they paid $29,500 too much. What a mess.

When you consider how much they will have to spend, the extra $29,500 will probably not dent their budget so much. Also, who says they paid list price. Maybe the owner would have accepted $500 to see the end of it.

 

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This is a cool project. 

NOT to race, but fast daysailing and cruising. 

New deck, of course, and a bit of an interior, err...., but the plan's solid.  Lots of used TP52 sails out there going almost free.

 

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Jeepers, I sailed this thing as Flash on SF Bay, and some CA coastal races too.  Great boat.

However for cruising the skinny racing rudder might be a bit sketchy, as if you lose control of direction, you suddenly lose it big. 

You might need to rethink that.  It's not hard to layer a more forgiving section over the top of the skinny one.

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I think this is great.  You couldn't make this boat properly competitive now, the rig can't take the new mainsails without a fair bit of work.   I remember being up the rig when this boat was still relevant, the halyard lock for the spins was a big tylaska stropped in to the mast; you had to go up there and manually attach the sail to the mast.  Really the first 5 TPs are a whole different class.

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Am I right in saying that Samurai refit hasn't gone well at all in hindsight? 

 

In terms of refitting a TP52 to go cruising, I just hope whoever is taking this on knows that this is going to cost much more than buying a 50 foot fast cruiser off the shelf, much much more. 

5 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

I think this is great.  You couldn't make this boat properly competitive now, the rig can't take the new mainsails without a fair bit of work.   I remember being up the rig when this boat was still relevant, the halyard lock for the spins was a big tylaska stropped in to the mast; you had to go up there and manually attach the sail to the mast.  Really the first 5 TPs are a whole different class.

 

How do you mean? Did someone have to get hoisted up the mast to hoist the kite? 

 

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Sail it upwind for a bit...perhaps...say... home from Cabo on that bottom and I can promise the term "cruising boat" will vanish before your eyes.

Cool project though...actually thought it was my old ride for a second..

 

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1 hour ago, Icedtea said:

How do you mean? Did someone have to get hoisted up the mast to hoist the kite? 

You hoist the kite in the normal way, and when it's set, a body goes up the mast, attaches the snapshackle on the strop to the head, then the halyard is eased to put all the load on the strop.  The snapshackle has a release line led down inside the mast to near the deck.  When you're ready to drop, take up the load on the halyard, and trip the shackle.  Down she comes.  Or should.

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6 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

You hoist the kite in the normal way, and when it's set, a body goes up the mast, attaches the snapshackle on the strop to the head, then the halyard is eased to put all the load on the strop.  The snapshackle has a release line led down inside the mast to near the deck.  When you're ready to drop, take up the load on the halyard, and trip the shackle.  Down she comes.  Or should.

Interesting - was that because the Halyards couldn't take the loads from the sail?

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It's for lower compression loads on the mast, less wear on the halyard and less weight aloft.

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17 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

It's for lower compression loads on the mast, less wear on the halyard and less weight aloft.

Yes, all three.  For long distance racing the main issue of the three was chafe.  A halyard exit box at the masthead would chew up spinnaker halyards in no time, which is why the S&S Swans had internal/external spin halyards, with a couple of big blocks hung from a welded aluminium 'crane' at the masthead.

So you go all internal, lose the crane, lose weight in the masthead, which is good. But you need something to protect the halyards. 

The strop (about 6") and snapshackle method was the cure.

It just meant a bow man would have to go up the rig after every set.  But they were only happy when their feet were off the deck so it worked just fine.

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

The only thing easy with that project is peeling the blue topsides. 

Ha, I thought that was a flash graphics spiderweb thingy, not a rooted painted job!

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On 4/18/2020 at 8:30 AM, 42 South said:

This boat came up in the thread about "$80K boats" some months ago.

J-Bird111 has now been bought for restoration as a cruiser/racer - for sale at $30,000 it obviously had just a few issues.

https://www.facebook.com/JBirdIII/

Have a look at their face book page, especially the videos about the soggy decks. Be interesting to see where this ends up. Great CORONA project for two.

Good for them. Brave project.

I dont do facebook, but if i did i would follow the progress.

cheers for highlighting it.

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1 hour ago, FixinGit said:

Good for them. Brave project.

I dont do facebook, but if i did i would follow the progress.

cheers for highlighting it.

I don’t do Facebook either and have no issues checking their page . Have a try ? 

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Here’s a whitbread racer that was brought back from the junkheap and turned into a cruiser .https://www.camarasailing.com/about.html

And I think an old vendee globe boat converted into a cruiser https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-2585966296.htm?rsqid=20e20d7b45ec438095d0e59864ba510a-002

Also saw an old DJuice dragons Volvo 60 here in NZ with an Aussie couple cruising it 2 handed 

it can be done so don’t knock too much . Not something I would ever do but big ups to those with the vision and the cojones to pull it off 

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Here’s a photo of camara and djuice dragons anchored next to each other in Whangarei NZ . Pretty cool to see two seperate generations of whitbread/Volvo side by side cruising .

 

 

B96723D0-4054-43E1-8B2F-D347737CCEC5.jpeg

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17 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

I think this is great.  You couldn't make this boat properly competitive now, the rig can't take the new mainsails without a fair bit of work.   I remember being up the rig when this boat was still relevant, the halyard lock for the spins was a big tylaska stropped in to the mast; you had to go up there and manually attach the sail to the mast.  Really the first 5 TPs are a whole different class.

Did some miles on that boat.

That rig was a new high end Southern Spars rig that was fitted in sometime arpund 2008. 

Pretty sure the main halyard was on the lock you describe with the tylaskas but the kite halyards had proper locks on them. 

I remember putting the spinnaker pole right through the front of that mast sending down wind in 30+kts with the A4 up in the Hong Kong to Vietnam race when the retrofitted spinnaker pole end fitting failed. We kept the rig in the air but it was touch and go for a while until we got the kite down. The Vietnam race is the best race in the world. 650nm hoon.

Next nam race we had the Prod. Here is a video of that one. Good times. Good to see the old girl getting some love finally.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, dachopper said:

Other options for a converter cheap cruiser....     https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2015-adams-45/SSE-AD-3331213/?Cr=3

 

Asking an absurd amount of money for just a hull without structure. Given there's a couple good condition sail-able boats in the $50k range.

Also Balsa core deck just like the TP!

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Never ceases to amaze me how a) a builder can build a cored boat and not properly seal every single deck fitting fastener and b) subsequent owners can move stuff around on the deck or a cored boat and not properly seal every deck fitting fastener.  

Of course, this was me for the first 10 years of ownership until I saw my first bit of wet balsa and understood what was happening.  How the hell are/were we so damn ignorant?

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What builders seal deck penetrations?  I’ve never seen that done at the factory. Most can’t even bother to counterbore (which makes the sealant last so much longer). 

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Never ceases to amaze me how a) a builder can build a cored boat and not properly seal every single deck fitting fastener and b) subsequent owners can move stuff around on the deck or a cored boat and not properly seal every deck fitting fastener.  

Of course, this was me for the first 10 years of ownership until I saw my first bit of wet balsa and understood what was happening.  How the hell are/were we so damn ignorant?

Not ignorant - cheap.

Potting every deck penetration would add serious coin to the cost of a boat - like several boat bucks.

Think about the hours you've taken to do yours and multiply the total by at least $100. That will only cover the labour cost. Then you have the materials - not insignificant - and more to the point for a manufacturer, the slowdown of production.

I suspect top builders like Nautor do it but for normal boats the cost is just too high.

For standardized deck layouts they could replace the core in hardware areas with G10 or similar instead of potting but even that would add a lot of cost and anything non-standard would be back to square one.

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Never ceases to amaze me how a) a builder can build a cored boat and not properly seal every single deck fitting fastener and b) subsequent owners can move stuff around on the deck or a cored boat and not properly seal every deck fitting fastener.  

Of course, this was me for the first 10 years of ownership until I saw my first bit of wet balsa and understood what was happening.  How the hell are/were we so damn ignorant?

I've found a long-enduring slow leak in the cabin. When the former owner put stanchions and life lines around the cockit, he just drilled through the deck laminate without bedding the bolts for the stanchions. At least the whole boat is just FG laminate, without balsa or any other distancing material.

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4 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Never ceases to amaze me how a) a builder can build a cored boat and not properly seal every single deck fitting fastener and b) subsequent owners can move stuff around on the deck or a cored boat and not properly seal every deck fitting fastener.  

Of course, this was me for the first 10 years of ownership until I saw my first bit of wet balsa and understood what was happening.  How the hell are/were we so damn ignorant?

I can't imagine a TP52 with a balsa core that is not full thickness carbon laminations or completely replaced with solid inserts or at all deck gear.  With relocation limited to the fully strengthened areas.  There isn't a balsa cored deck out there that I'm aware of that can take the sheet, inhauler, halyard or runner loads.

I think I'd keep going with the sawzall on that deck.

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40 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

I can't imagine a TP52 with a balsa core that is not full thickness carbon laminations or completely replaced with solid inserts or at all deck gear.  With relocation limited to the fully strengthened areas.  There isn't a balsa cored deck out there that I'm aware of that can take the sheet, inhauler, halyard or runner loads.

I think I'd keep going with the sawzall on that deck.

Just cut the whole coach roof back now, and keep going. A new cockpit as well at that rate is possible. 

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I can't imagine a TP52 with a balsa core that is not full thickness carbon laminations or completely replaced with solid inserts or at all deck gear.  With relocation limited to the fully strengthened areas.  There isn't a balsa cored deck out there that I'm aware of that can take the sheet, inhauler, halyard or runner loads.

I think I'd keep going with the sawzall on that deck.

I'm pretty blown away that a relatively "new" boat like this TP52 was even built with a balsa core to begin with.

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1 minute ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

I'm pretty blown away that a relatively "new" boat like this TP52 was even built with a balsa core to begin with.

This was a Gen 1.  By Gen 2 - pretty much the next boat built - they were carbon and nomex or similar and had serious carbon patching and G10 core replacement in very specific deck locations.  Reconfigure at your own risk and expense.  

The boats also started getting a lot wider.  I've only been on one Gen 1 TP and it seems like a small boat.  

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Balsa has fantastic properties as a core material. In a production setting it sucks, but in theory it would last forever if built with epoxy and all the fasteners isolated. I have cut plenty of rotten Balsa out of my current boat and I hated it, but it would have been fine with a bit more care in building. Nomex has some serious risks too, especially with pourous high fiber-to-resin laminates. Foam only wishes it had the properties of Balsa.

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Balsa by itself is not the problem - my balsa cored boat had a perfectly dry hull after 38 years when I sold it.  The deck was dry too but only after carefully sealing everything and repairing some minor wet areas.  

The moral of the story is a) don't build a balsa core boat unless you are prepared to seal all the deck/hull penetrations one way or the other - if not you are an irresponsible builder and b) if you buy a balsa core boat and don't check that all the penetrations have been sorted, you are an irresponsible (or ignorant) owner. 

Been there, done that.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Not ignorant - cheap.

Potting every deck penetration would add serious coin to the cost of a boat - like several boat bucks.

Think about the hours you've taken to do yours and multiply the total by at least $100. That will only cover the labour cost. Then you have the materials - not insignificant - and more to the point for a manufacturer, the slowdown of production.

I suspect top builders like Nautor do it but for normal boats the cost is just too high.

For standardized deck layouts they could replace the core in hardware areas with G10 or similar instead of potting but even that would add a lot of cost and anything non-standard would be back to square one.

It would have been way less hours if I wasn't ignorant at the beginning and sealed every deck penetration when I bought the boat.  

If they were all done during production I can see it adding another $2K to the cost at most.  Well worth it compared to what I had to do afterward.

Even better, they could put solid glass in the areas of the penetrations during build.  In the case of my boat they put plywood in where the jib track and winches would be.  Solid glass would have weighed just a tiny bit more and been ever so much more durable.  Sealing plywood penetrations is a real PITA.

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2 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

I'm pretty blown away that a relatively "new" boat like this TP52 was even built with a balsa core to begin with.

Some TPs are built with balsa cores because there is an IRC advantage with that core.  Its the boats that also race IRC.

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15 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Never ceases to amaze me how a) a builder can build a cored boat and not properly seal every single deck fitting fastener and b) subsequent owners can move stuff around on the deck or a cored boat and not properly seal every deck fitting fastener.  

Of course, this was me for the first 10 years of ownership until I saw my first bit of wet balsa and understood what was happening.  How the hell are/were we so damn ignorant?

Laziness. It works well enough, until it isn't their responsibility any more.

 

7 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Balsa has fantastic properties as a core material. In a production setting it sucks, but in theory it would last forever if built with epoxy and all the fasteners isolated. I have cut plenty of rotten Balsa out of my current boat and I hated it, but it would have been fine with a bit more care in building. Nomex has some serious risks too, especially with pourous high fiber-to-resin laminates. Foam only wishes it had the properties of Balsa.

To be fair I looked at a boat some time ago, and the balsa deck was actually in good condition, the Schock guys had actually done a good job with it! I genuinely wondered how they all fared up now as time has gone on.

Oh and many years ago my old man looked at a well regarded production trimaran and the cockpits foam glass construction had fallen apart.

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On 4/18/2020 at 11:13 AM, P_Wop said:

This is a cool project. 

NOT to race, but fast daysailing and cruising. 

New deck, of course, and a bit of an interior, err...., but the plan's solid.  Lots of used TP52 sails out there going almost free.

 

Hobart 2021 at the end of the article. 

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2 hours ago, Jono said:

Pretty resourceful.

Nothing like planning the keel drop in the water. As distinct from all the unplanned ones we hear about........

It's because they weren't built to very rigorous maritime engineering standards, and not following the regulations governing the materials they can be made of.

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4 minutes ago, Misbehavin' said:

It's because they weren't built to very rigorous maritime engineering standards, and not following the regulations governing the materials they can be made of.

Watching the videos of the deck being peeled off I would almost believe that this boat was partly constructed from cardboard...

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3 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Watching the videos of the deck being peeled off I would almost believe that this boat was partly constructed from cardboard...

Any paper, string or cellotape to be seen as well?

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We cored the decks with g10 tubing, pre drill, removed balsa a bit shot hi-sol in it and mounted backing plates with waxed up fasteners.

Then you pull it all apart , check fit with the hardware, shelve the parts until the paint is barely dry and then... as you are motoring to the start... you seal that shit but good....

At least that's how we did it with hull #2...

Those were great times...first thing we did was send it to Chi-town.

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36 minutes ago, Coolerking said:

We cored the decks with g10 tubing, pre drill, removed balsa a bit shot hi-sol in it and mounted backing plates with waxed up fasteners.

Then you pull it all apart , check fit with the hardware, shelve the parts until the paint is barely dry and then... as you are motoring to the start... you seal that shit but good....

At least that's how we did it with hull #2...

Those were great times...first thing we did was send it to Chi-town.

Sounds cool but it doesnt work if you don’t glass over the top of the tubes. I know because I had to replace all the core under the cabin top clutches and winches...

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I wonder if they plan on re-designing a shallower draft keel.  The 1st gen 52s are somewhere around what, 11-12 ft?  Won't be able to get into many places with that draft as a cruiser.  

 

I'm definitely following this.....

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3 hours ago, Jkdubz808 said:

I wonder if they plan on re-designing a shallower draft keel.  The 1st gen 52s are somewhere around what, 11-12 ft?  Won't be able to get into many places with that draft as a cruiser.  

 

I'm definitely following this.....

Yeah, I'm pretty F'ed at 9'.

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On 4/21/2020 at 7:28 PM, Raz'r said:

Sounds cool but it doesnt work if you don’t glass over the top of the tubes. I know because I had to replace all the core under the cabin top clutches and winches...

so they lasted how long?

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8 minutes ago, Coolerking said:

so they lasted how long?

I don’t know, I just know that 10 years on, the cabin tops were mush. I assume 10 years as that was the last major refurb. All the original stuff was fine.

the failure came at the top of the g10/surface glass layer interface. Without glass over the tops of the tubes, the tubes were free to wiggle a bit, breaking loose from the surface glass and letting water in

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On 4/19/2020 at 2:07 AM, Tyler Durden said:

I think this is great.  You couldn't make this boat properly competitive now, the rig can't take the new mainsails without a fair bit of work.   I remember being up the rig when this boat was still relevant, the halyard lock for the spins was a big tylaska stropped in to the mast; you had to go up there and manually attach the sail to the mast.  Really the first 5 TPs are a whole different class.

Do the newer ones do this with the main?  After races at a local regatta in February, I saw blokes up the mast of the TP52s after races (they seem to be flavour of the month here), and got told they have a halyard lock...meant to be able to trip it from deck level, but doesn't always work??  I've never noticed this before.  But it's probably just that in normal races, they finish too far in front...

Do they need to go aloft for the hoist?  Or does it lock somehow without a body up there?

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24 minutes ago, PITA said:

Do the newer ones do this with the main?  After races at a local regatta in February, I saw blokes up the mast of the TP52s after races (they seem to be flavour of the month here), and got told they have a halyard lock...meant to be able to trip it from deck level, but doesn't always work??  I've never noticed this before.  But it's probably just that in normal races, they finish too far in front...

Do they need to go aloft for the hoist?  Or does it lock somehow without a body up there?

 

 

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On 4/20/2020 at 12:00 AM, darth reapius said:

Asking an absurd amount of money for just a hull without structure. Given there's a couple good condition sail-able boats in the $50k range.

Also Balsa core deck just like the TP!

Yup. It's barely worth 1/4 of what he is asking as you would have to be very careful mounting deck fittings. $10k would be very generous.

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Just stumbled upon this thread from januar, lol wtf:  https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/2001-tp52-buying-advice-229012.html

Quote

I have minimal experience but I have some newbie questions so that I can learn ...

2001 TP52
USD$20K
Requires new deck, sails, engine and respray.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for...s/tp-52/241708

1. What kind of costs would be involved to get it into average condition for local weekend casual sailing (ie no bluewater trips)?
Engine, say USD$20K?
Sails, say USD$10K?
Desk & respray cost? Any chance of DIY?

2. Could the TP52 shorthanded?

3. Could it get planing?

 

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What the fuk indeed!  But I'm lock-down bored so I took a run at it.

1. What kind of costs would be involved to get it into average condition for local weekend casual sailing (ie no bluewater trips)?
Engine plus sail drive, say USD$20K?  Say twice that. 
Sails, say USD$10200K?  Say $45K for a main, $20K - $30K for each jib (x 4) or spinnaker (x4).   Or try to buy them used from the Med Cup and then your looking at +/- $50K.  
Deck & respray cost? Any chance of DIYNew deck?  $100K or more, much more,  New deck paint, $20K, New hull paint, $20K, Bottom Job, $20K   DIY = LOL unless you own the boat yard.

2.  Short-handed?  Sure if you started all over with new deck layout, deck hardware and roller furling and reefing systems.  Typical TP52 setup needs 10 people to actually sail the boat well and 14 people to race it.  

3.  Planing?  Sure, if you had a decent crew and decent sails and decent hardware.  An easy 17 to nicely above 20+ knots in decent breeze and flat water all day long.  

4.  A TP52 in "Average Condition" means you would break about $500 worth of stuff every time you went sailing.  

 

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On 4/23/2020 at 4:52 PM, The Dark Knight said:

 

 

Good locking systems should trip from the deck.  Good locking systems are pretty expensive though and things don't always work though, do they.

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3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

2.  Short-handed?  Sure if you started all over with new deck layout, deck hardware and roller furling and reefing systems.  Typical TP52 setup needs 10 people to actually sail the boat well and 14 people to race it.  

There was a father/daughter team who raced a TP52 in the recent RNI in NZ.

https://www.ssanz.co.nz/round-north-island-2020/kiakaha/

89290176_2897524743627202_14506919823755

 

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

There was a father/daughter team who raced a TP52 in the recent RNI in NZ.

https://www.ssanz.co.nz/round-north-island-2020/kiakaha/

89290176_2897524743627202_14506919823755

 

Sure.  Good on 'em.  Not a problem with the right gear and talented people.  Roller furling Code 0, lazy jacks, pinhead main with slugs, no runners.  Like I said.  

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1 minute ago, IMR said:

Someone tell them to stop cutting all the deck off. Just pull one skin, scrape the balsa out and start putting it back together 

Wouldn’t you build a bigger house for a cruiser?

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6 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

Just stumbled upon this thread from januar, lol wtf:  https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/2001-tp52-buying-advice-229012.html

 

 

6 hours ago, Left Shift said:

What the fuk indeed!  But I'm lock-down bored so I took a run at it.

1. What kind of costs would be involved to get it into average condition for local weekend casual sailing (ie no bluewater trips)?
Engine plus sail drive, say USD$20K?  Say twice that. 
Sails, say USD$10200K?  Say $45K for a main, $20K - $30K for each jib (x 4) or spinnaker (x4).   Or try to buy them used from the Med Cup and then your looking at +/- $50K.  
Deck & respray cost? Any chance of DIYNew deck?  $100K or more, much more,  New deck paint, $20K, New hull paint, $20K, Bottom Job, $20K   DIY = LOL unless you own the boat yard.

2.  Short-handed?  Sure if you started all over with new deck layout, deck hardware and roller furling and reefing systems.  Typical TP52 setup needs 10 people to actually sail the boat well and 14 people to race it.  

3.  Planing?  Sure, if you had a decent crew and decent sails and decent hardware.  An easy 17 to nicely above 20+ knots in decent breeze and flat water all day long.  

4.  A TP52 in "Average Condition" means you would break about $500 worth of stuff every time you went sailing.  

 

I looked at the CF thread and the original poster is not the person who bought it

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21 minutes ago, IMR said:

Someone tell them to stop cutting all the deck off. Just pull one skin, scrape the balsa out and start putting it back together 

Looks like there is some method to the madness. Just found this quote on FB

 

Quote

Many are asking what we are doing. The deck is soooooo soggy it needs to go. The easy option would be to keep ceiling and re-core it with a new outer skin, but Thommo needs more headroom so a new deck profile on front half. Cockpit will stay relatively the same. Internals will see a bit of comfort, not just the racing fitout, more like a Cookson 50 interior. The deck shape? You'll just have to wait and see!!!

 

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