Jump to content

Thoughts on mainsheet traveler V’s Double blocked mainsheet?


Recommended Posts

For the seasoned solo sailors on here, i would be interested to hear your thoughts for and against keeping a knee high traveler across the cockpit or converting to a double block mainsheet setup on pad eyes on the deck level. I have my own thoughts but really want to hear other opinions. Thanks.

The hand drawing is not mine but is spot on and lifted from web.

DF1867DF-56BE-414C-919D-8F5F8CF95D10.jpeg

5ECF51ED-A1E3-404C-AFC0-E88A7915EF71.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

“KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid” theory I think applies here. The twin block system I only see used by either some catamarans or super yachts. I see the logic but I’m not sure it will be any less obstructive than the traveller. Solo sailing is about making things easier for yourself and being able to leave the mainsheet to do its own thing particularly in tacks and gybes is a good thing

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this woud be even more obstructive. In heavy air with the traveler down you can move forward on the windward side,  and in light air you can use either side. With this set up you are blocked on both sides. At the dock it might be nice to stow the boom to one side and not have the traveler, but you would need to unshakle and stow the unused sheet.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Double mainsheet does take some getting used to for trimming as the boom moves in a circle section, when you sheet in/out and the other sheet is fixed. It also doesn't auto tack.

Other than that it is fully functional and cheaper than a track.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Caveat. I am not a seasoned solo sailor. I copied Mike Lenehan’s dual mainsheet for my trimaran. I originally had two separate mainsheets with two bitter ends then I changed to a continuous mainsheet with a bitter end on each side. I prefer the continuous set up which allows the boom to swing on tacks and jibes. You do have to be careful that one end doesn’t become longer than the other after multiple trim adjustments. The system effectively dampens. the boom swing during jibes but the biggest advantage for me is that combined with a topping lift I can secure my rig on the mooring and eliminate the flailing in the chop.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SSolo said:

i'd keep mainsheet & traveller set up, but adjust the ratios/blocks so you can handle them easily. 

 

I’ll look into the ratio change. That may indeed make it so theres less line juggling during Tack/Gybe etc. Nice idea. Thanks.
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a guy who removed the mid-cockpit traveller and converted to the 'a-frame' arrangement. He loves the set up and has done a ton of solo miles with it. Personally, I have my traveller cross-cockpit right in front of the wheel(like a lot of boats in this size range with end-boom sheeting), and like it as is, don't really mind stepping over it, and cockpit cushions can hide the traveller if one wants to stretch out. (the traveller conversion is at around 3:20 on the video)

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, fufkin said:

Here's a guy who removed the mid-cockpit traveller and converted to the 'a-frame' arrangement. He loves the set up and has done a ton of solo miles with it. Personally, I have my traveller cross-cockpit right in front of the wheel(like a lot of boats in this size range with end-boom sheeting), and like it as is, don't really mind stepping over it, and cockpit cushions can hide the traveller if one wants to stretch out. (the traveller conversion is at around 3:20 on the video)

 

Yeah, Vernon was the first person i had seen actually doing the conversion. Great youtube channel, great videography and a good bloke.

His boat is also a credit to Mr Sayer and the builder. Beautiful boat.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Have you considered a single pad eye in the middle? Vang-sheeting? It's the simplest and simple is good. 

Can't ever get the boom completely centered but then again there is no rail meat so... 

Yeah i have looked and thought into that design. One of the reasons for changing away from the track is to free up the cockpit for easy movement and remove the need for some lines crossing the cockpit. The boat does have a track and a centre cockpit sole mounted downhaul setup. Used with a crew for tuning during racing. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, FixinGit said:

Yeah i have looked and thought into that design. One of the reasons for changing away from the track is to free up the cockpit for easy movement and remove the need for some lines crossing the cockpit. The boat does have a track and a centre cockpit sole mounted downhaul setup. Used with a crew for tuning during racing. 

I wouldn't do it in a big or ocean going boat. Too much stress on the boom. Smaller boats can get away with it though. Also have to consider a traveler spreads shock-loads over a couple attachment points, your pad eyes will have to be well-backed and tough.    

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mark K said:

I wouldn't do it in a big or ocean going boat. Too much stress on the boom. Smaller boats can get away with it though. Also have to consider a traveler spreads shock-loads over a couple attachment points, your pad eyes will have to be well-backed and tough.    

Yeah for sure. The single point padeye kind of scares me to be honest just due to the possibilities of shockloading. I like to be able to point the boom wherever i want to and i guess 2 points of attachment or spread through the traveler track allow that. And your right, my cockpit sole would need beefing right up. It already needs repair due to age and over tightening of an unbacked fitting. All worth thinking about before doing any conversion. Cheers. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I still don’t quite get the logic for the twin system. You say the traveller is high and takes up space and there is too much string, by having a purchase system going from the boom down to the bench seat you still need to step on the seats to get round it and downwind you’ll always have a bunch of rope draped over the cockpit from the windward sheet. And with 2 mainsheets you’ll have twice the amount of rope in the cockpit, a traveller rope is small and you can make it continuous. I’ve used this system on a Swan 76 ketch for the mizzen sheet system and to sheet the boom in the centre line with any sort of leech tension to go upwind you have to put more effort into each sheet individually than you would on 1 centreline mainsheet as you’re pulling both against each other and putting stress on the boom fitting. I’d stick with the traveller or buy a new boat

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, JL92S said:

I still don’t quite get the logic for the twin system. You say the traveller is high and takes up space and there is too much string, by having a purchase system going from the boom down to the bench seat you still need to step on the seats to get round it and downwind you’ll always have a bunch of rope draped over the cockpit from the windward sheet. And with 2 mainsheets you’ll have twice the amount of rope in the cockpit, a traveller rope is small and you can make it continuous. I’ve used this system on a Swan 76 ketch for the mizzen sheet system and to sheet the boom in the centre line with any sort of leech tension to go upwind you have to put more effort into each sheet individually than you would on 1 centreline mainsheet as you’re pulling both against each other and putting stress on the boom fitting. I’d stick with the traveller or buy a new boat

Tuning a swan 76 on the mizzen must be a great sensation. 
I have never met anybody that has gotten rid of a boat they love rather than change one or two things to aid easier solo sailing. But i have 2 lottery tickets for this weekend, so i’ll never say never... :)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the normal traveler track across my cockpit and I find it easy to step over.  But this is also the route that my jib sheets take to cross to the high side of the cockpit, so I step over the track and the sheets at the same time.  This is something I find absolutely invaluable.

A comment that your cockpit looks really long for singlehanding.  You'd want all of the sheets and clutches located where you can reach them (even if it is a stretch with the tiller between your knees) from behind the traveler. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple is best, lots of newbies try and reinvent the wheel then tell themselves its the best thing since sliced bread. How many times have people bought a boat, changed heaps of things in the first flush of romance then changed a lot of it back again?  Anything that adds complication on a boat has to he justified and for a solo setup even more so. Not only that its boat specific. For example much has been said of crossing  jibsheets to the uphill side, fine on a longer board but try short tacking with a 150 genoa, the same thing with travellers vs double sheets. A lot more crap to adjust, blocks lines etc in the cockpit for what real advantage? So you can stroll to the bridgedeck from the tiller?

On a typical boat for solo sailing racing, 25-35 feet you dont need high tech solutions, when the loads get up then sure but thats a whole different story, like what the fuck are you doing sailing a 60 foot boat on your own- have you really got no mates or a girl to share it with!  

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

These are all valid and well worth contemplating thoughts. Some i have pondered at length before posting this thread. Its interesting to see what other sailors thoughts on this. 
 Foolish is correct in that the cockpit is long. 
 The design is open and for crewed racing.
Its no major issue as she is 34ft and is still manageable singlehanded as is. There are however a few things i will be doing to make it easier and they will be on a budget,not hightech or flashy. This may or may not include removing mainsheet track, installing furling headsail, running backstay and checkstay mod. Nothing major, just functional simplifying.
Thanks for everybodys interesting input and opinions so far. Interesting and appreciated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What i found is that just going it with whats there taught me pretty quickly what I wanted to change. I think you need a good working triangle with tiller main and genoa winches, from that base you can tweak. Things that you adjust regularly, cunningham, outhaul vang led back and perhaps to either side depending on the boat. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2020 at 6:44 AM, FixinGit said:

For the seasoned solo sailors on here, i would be interested to hear your thoughts for and against keeping a knee high traveler across the cockpit or converting to a double block mainsheet setup on pad eyes on the deck level. I have my own thoughts but really want to hear other opinions. Thanks.

The hand drawing is not mine but is spot on and lifted from web.

DF1867DF-56BE-414C-919D-8F5F8CF95D10.jpeg

5ECF51ED-A1E3-404C-AFC0-E88A7915EF71.jpeg

Reminds me of systems they used in the 70’s or set up on the cabin top 

not a fan

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2020 at 8:44 PM, FixinGit said:

For the seasoned solo sailors on here, i would be interested to hear your thoughts for and against keeping a knee high traveler across the cockpit or converting to a double block mainsheet setup on pad eyes on the deck level. I have my own thoughts but really want to hear other opinions. Thanks.

The hand drawing is not mine but is spot on and lifted from web.

DF1867DF-56BE-414C-919D-8F5F8CF95D10.jpeg

5ECF51ED-A1E3-404C-AFC0-E88A7915EF71.jpeg

Maybe a wishbone boom.  No vang or traveller, just a snotter line (adjusts the distance from the mast to the front of the boom, controlling leech and foot simultaneously)  and a mainsheet that is lighter loaded as it is only controlling the angle of attack, not the leech tension.  Stowing the main is also easier as it sits in a bag under the boom.   The Wylie guys have it pretty well sorted, albeit on an unstayed mast.  http://www.wyliecat.com/wishbone_rig/index.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, harryproa said:

Maybe a wishbone boom.  No vang or traveller, just a snotter line (adjusts the distance from the mast to the front of the boom, controlling leech and foot simultaneously)  and a mainsheet that is lighter loaded as it is only controlling the angle of attack, not the leech tension.  Stowing the main is also easier as it sits in a bag under the boom.   The Wylie guys have it pretty well sorted, albeit on an unstayed mast.  http://www.wyliecat.com/wishbone_rig/index.html

I saw one of these on a catamaran at the Gold coast i think, pretty interesting setup.

Once i snap the boom i have i may consider it, hopefully thatll be waaaaaaaay never though. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2020 at 6:44 AM, FixinGit said:

For the seasoned solo sailors on here, i would be interested to hear your thoughts for and against keeping a knee high traveler across the cockpit or converting to a double block mainsheet setup on pad eyes on the deck level. I have my own thoughts but really want to hear other opinions. Thanks.

The hand drawing is not mine but is spot on and lifted from web.

DF1867DF-56BE-414C-919D-8F5F8CF95D10.jpeg

5ECF51ED-A1E3-404C-AFC0-E88A7915EF71.jpeg

Could go to a spectra bridle like tbe Seascape 24 or 18 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, FixinGit said:

I saw one of these on a catamaran at the Gold coast i think, pretty interesting setup.

Once i snap the boom i have i may consider it, hopefully thatll be waaaaaaaay never though. 

Don't say that FixinGit, you'll jinx yourself.....

IMG_0243.thumb.JPG.2f0df9c91034b1b4094968071637ba82.JPG

IMG_0253bb.thumb.jpg.a6081ce8ebee541f4dbb32e7430edcfd.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2020 at 2:51 AM, FixinGit said:

Thanks for everybodys interesting input and opinions so far. Interesting and appreciated.

Don't copy that sketch. It shows impossible rigging. Needs a triple block, or becket at the other end, or something. Needs a designer with experience, that's for sure.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

At the risk of  minor thread-hijack.... how do you stop the traveler control lines jamming up when tacking shorthanded?  I'd like to be able to leave them near full travel, so that I can tack the boat without needing to faff with it but when I've tried to do so the car tends to get caught up in the loose control line from the lazy side and jams, with the boom held up to windward... is there a technique? should I reduce the purchase to cut down on spaghetti? Maybe some shock-cord to keep some tension in the lazy line?

Thanks,

                W.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Teener said:

Scary, what was the post-mortem on that one Shaggy?

Self inflicted fuckup embarrassingly. Gybe under kite. Conditions weren’t that bad , blowing about 30+ and no more than a 2-3m seas, I called for the gybe and the mainsheet wasn’t sheeted in enough. It didnt help that a big gust came through right at the wrong time, the boom had too much room to accelerate and the shock load of the mainsheet pulling it up ripped it open.

we still won that race though :), crew did a superb job in jury rigging a temp new mainsheet.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Don't say that FixinGit, you'll jinx yourself.....

IMG_0243.thumb.JPG.2f0df9c91034b1b4094968071637ba82.JPG

IMG_0253bb.thumb.jpg.a6081ce8ebee541f4dbb32e7430edcfd.jpg

Ouch! 
*mutters the counter jinx repeatedly*

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Don't copy that sketch. It shows impossible rigging. Needs a triple block, or becket at the other end, or something. Needs a designer with experience, that's for sure.

For sure, the most effective use and setup i have personally seen used is on the guy in the aboves youtube videos on it(Learning by doing). The sketch was just a google grab representation of the setup. But well spotted. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

At the risk of  minor thread-hijack.... how do you stop the traveler control lines jamming up when tacking shorthanded?  I'd like to be able to leave them near full travel, so that I can tack the boat without needing to faff with it but when I've tried to do so the car tends to get caught up in the loose control line from the lazy side and jams, with the boom held up to windward... is there a technique? should I reduce the purchase to cut down on spaghetti? Maybe some shock-cord to keep some tension in the lazy line?

Thanks,

                W.

I have found that constant bagging and awareness of the car lines is important before and after each manoeuvre and major trim, which is one of the reason for my considering other options possibly. 
A retractable car line device would be rad but waaay to potential for jams and pinches and just seems..... Lavish.. :) 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so here it is. Its a longish(But excellent) video of Vernons Boat which is a Sayer design (that is covered in one of his other earlier videos). If you only want to see the Mainsheet setup skip to 17:30.  But the boat mixed with him and his filming skills make most of his stuff excellent. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

At the risk of  minor thread-hijack.... how do you stop the traveler control lines jamming up when tacking shorthanded?  I'd like to be able to leave them near full travel, so that I can tack the boat without needing to faff with it but when I've tried to do so the car tends to get caught up in the loose control line from the lazy side and jams, with the boom held up to windward... is there a technique? should I reduce the purchase to cut down on spaghetti? Maybe some shock-cord to keep some tension in the lazy line?

Thanks,

                W.

HI WG,

If I understand this right, do you leave the car to run the length of the traveller?

My main is a fat head,  so I ease the sheet a foot or so and cleat off the traveller car on centreline, the loss of pressure behind the mast pulls the bow to leeward before tacking. After the tack (if you get the jib sheet on quick enough) the leeward rotation helps the boat fall off a bit and accelerate out of the tack. There is less heel and you can naff about before attending to it as you're twisting off at the top.

My boat has a bad habit of going into irons if I am too slow, so this setup works for me at least .   

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input... Yes, that's what I meant- letting the car run the length of the traveller... I've tried this in the past but it's often resulted in a jammed car, so don't generally do it. I was wondering if there's a workaround but it sounds like easing the sheet and centreing the car prior to tacking is the way to go...

 A contributory factor is that the control line has several purchases, so there's a LOT of rope to manage... maybe it'd be better to set it up as a single control line each side and try and route them to a winch? The kite winches might work, are pretty close and redundant when needed for this... makes me wonder why this hasn't been used previously but maybe with full crew there was simply no need...?  Hmm...

Cheers,

              W.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The big advantage of a wide traveller for me is being able to play it in the gusts, like sailing a skiff.

If you have the car set on  maximum travel when you tack, you lose this advantage.

I generally set it a foot or so on each side for upwind work, and use the sheet and vang for sail control.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I did it to get rid of the traveller that essentially destroyed the cockpit from an ergonomic point of view.

Instead of two tackles, I have two separate mainsheets direct to two separate winches. The winches are Harken 46s, and that seems the perfect size for my boat (Olson 40, about 350 sq ft main, end boom sheeting). The mainsheets dead end to cars on the rail, up to low friction rings at the end of boom, at gooseneck, at chainplates, to a block on the rail a bit forward of the winches, to the self tailing winches. The sheets are dyneema single braid, spliced to dacron double braid near the winches.

Pros:

I now have a nice, safe, comfortable, fun cockpit.

Much lighter, cheaper, and stronger than a traveller.

Fewer fasteners, so less leaks.

I can get the main right where I want it no problem.

Gybing is better, with much better control, and no big bundle of mainsheet and traveler crashing across the cockpit.

The boom stays where I set it -- it never swings around. This makes a surprising significant safety improvement.

Trimming is as repeatable as a normal system.

No preventer or boom vang. I have a solid vang, but I use it only in place of a topping lift. I never needed the vang to pull the boom down, so after 18 months I removed the vang tackle: it's just a topping lift now. The leeward sheet is perfect for sailing deep angles downwind. If one wanted to sail much DDW, a vang would be useful, but I removed all the symmetric spinnaker gear.

Cons:

It takes perhaps 15 seconds longer to get the main right how I want it.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, carcrash said:

I did it to get rid of the traveller that essentially destroyed the cockpit from an ergonomic point of view.

Instead of two tackles, I have two separate mainsheets direct to two separate winches. The winches are Harken 46s, and that seems the perfect size for my boat (Olson 40, about 350 sq ft main, end boom sheeting). The mainsheets dead end to cars on the rail, up to low friction rings at the end of boom, at gooseneck, at chainplates, to a block on the rail a bit forward of the winches, to the self tailing winches. The sheets are dyneema single braid, spliced to dacron double braid near the winches.

Pros:

I now have a nice, safe, comfortable, fun cockpit.

Much lighter, cheaper, and stronger than a traveller.

Fewer fasteners, so less leaks.

I can get the main right where I want it no problem.

Gybing is better, with much better control, and no big bundle of mainsheet and traveler crashing across the cockpit.

The boom stays where I set it -- it never swings around. This makes a surprising significant safety improvement.

Trimming is as repeatable as a normal system.

No preventer or boom vang. I have a solid vang, but I use it only in place of a topping lift. I never needed the vang to pull the boom down, so after 18 months I removed the vang tackle: it's just a topping lift now. The leeward sheet is perfect for sailing deep angles downwind. If one wanted to sail much DDW, a vang would be useful, but I removed all the symmetric spinnaker gear.

Cons:

It takes perhaps 15 seconds longer to get the main right how I want it.

 

I’m trying to picture that in my head. Will get some sleep and re read it. Sounds interesting Cheers. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/3/2020 at 4:15 PM, jetfuel said:

Reminds me of systems they used in the 70’s or set up on the cabin top 

not a fan

This would be a nightmare in a heavy air gybe.  Two set of ropes that act as deck sweepers and grab every cleat and winch on the way over.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My very first little Cal 20  was like this. It had the usual old-skool triangle mainsheet off the back of the boom, which worked but lacked some  adjustability. I replaced it with dual, three-part-purchase sheets, led forward to significantly-sized cam cleats on the cockpit sides, a little forward of the end of the tiller.  Worked a treat.

But then, that was a Cal 20 and I had almost no singlehanded experience at the time.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Alan H said:

My very first little Cal 20  was like this. It had the usual old-skool triangle mainsheet off the back of the boom, which worked but lacked some  adjustability. I replaced it with dual, three-part-purchase sheets, led forward to significantly-sized cam cleats on the cockpit sides, a little forward of the end of the tiller.  Worked a treat.

But then, that was a Cal 20 and I had almost no singlehanded experience at the time.

I did it to get some more adjustability in the system without installing an expensive traveler.

That said, I wanted those features because I was racing the boat...or attempting to!  If I was cruising the boat, I'd just stay with the uber simple original triangle arrangement.  I note that a couple of local Cal 20's hereabouts use the old skool arrangement, and they're pretty hard to beat on handicap.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/29/2020 at 3:53 AM, JL92S said:

I still don’t quite get the logic for the twin system. You say the traveller is high and takes up space and there is too much string, by having a purchase system going from the boom down to the bench seat you still need to step on the seats to get round it and downwind you’ll always have a bunch of rope draped over the cockpit from the windward sheet. And with 2 mainsheets you’ll have twice the amount of rope in the cockpit, a traveller rope is small and you can make it continuous. I’ve used this system on a Swan 76 ketch for the mizzen sheet system and to sheet the boom in the centre line with any sort of leech tension to go upwind you have to put more effort into each sheet individually than you would on 1 centreline mainsheet as you’re pulling both against each other and putting stress on the boom fitting. I’d stick with the traveller or buy a new boat

I’ve tried it *3.  The rope floor.  This ^^^.  The system is fiddly, and when things go pear shaped, less is better.  I have a cascade traveler now, with a full beam curved traveler. I have a main gross and a fine.  The fine is a pain in the ass, useless when TW is just below the first reef.  The traveler cascade is a pain in the ass at the limits.  Maybe fiddles are best?  Fewer crossings?  Winches- banging into the handles, handles at the wrong place, or losing wraps, or messing with wraps when you should be doing other things.  Nothing is perfect, unless you can find a system where you can change gears, somehow.....

this is for a ULBD 96 d/l 40’, ~550 sq ft main-

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/6/2020 at 2:22 AM, shaggybaxter said:

HI WG,

If I understand this right, do you leave the car to run the length of the traveller?

My main is a fat head,  so I ease the sheet a foot or so and cleat off the traveller car on centreline, the loss of pressure behind the mast pulls the bow to leeward before tacking. After the tack (if you get the jib sheet on quick enough) the leeward rotation helps the boat fall off a bit and accelerate out of the tack. There is less heel and you can naff about before attending to it as you're twisting off at the top.

My boat has a bad habit of going into irons if I am too slow, so this setup works for me at least .   

I’m solely responsible for the Main/ runners on Amati.  I had a fat pinhead (~ hobie 16 planform for some kind of reference), before I cut down the roach to get the thing under the top runners without doing the desperate yet thrilling runner dance (which was the dumbest thing I’ve done on the boat, since it killed my light air performance w/o a drifter, but at least I don’t have to reef at 10k true now- tradeoffs-:)) .  Anyway, full width curved traveler, with ball bearing cars, and I’ve never wanted, I guess, to release the main sheet during a tack, because of the balance issue you mention.  I have gone to a Hoyt jib, which does slow down the tack vs releasing a jib sheet.  So curious about why you release the sheet for a tack- easier to pop the top batten?  Which, granted, after going through 4 top battens on my present new main, is a real issue...

IIRR, your Pogo (?) has a full width traveler on the stern?  Is it curved enough to run freely without jamming?

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/11/2020 at 6:12 PM, carcrash said:

I did it to get rid of the traveller that essentially destroyed the cockpit from an ergonomic point of view.

Instead of two tackles, I have two separate mainsheets direct to two separate winches. The winches are Harken 46s, and that seems the perfect size for my boat (Olson 40, about 350 sq ft main, end boom sheeting). The mainsheets dead end to cars on the rail, up to low friction rings at the end of boom, at gooseneck, at chainplates, to a block on the rail a bit forward of the winches, to the self tailing winches. The sheets are dyneema single braid, spliced to dacron double braid near the winches.

Pros:

I now have a nice, safe, comfortable, fun cockpit.

Much lighter, cheaper, and stronger than a traveller.

Fewer fasteners, so less leaks.

I can get the main right where I want it no problem.

Gybing is better, with much better control, and no big bundle of mainsheet and traveler crashing across the cockpit.

The boom stays where I set it -- it never swings around. This makes a surprising significant safety improvement.

Trimming is as repeatable as a normal system.

No preventer or boom vang. I have a solid vang, but I use it only in place of a topping lift. I never needed the vang to pull the boom down, so after 18 months I removed the vang tackle: it's just a topping lift now. The leeward sheet is perfect for sailing deep angles downwind. If one wanted to sail much DDW, a vang would be useful, but I removed all the symmetric spinnaker gear.

Cons:

It takes perhaps 15 seconds longer to get the main right how I want it.

 

I’m intrigued, basically because our boats are generally similar - skinny, light,  assymmed & under- handed :lol:   Do you have runners?  (Don’t remember)  Swept spreaders?  How does the system work shorthanded in narrow waters, say during an apparent wind downwind set of gybes?  I will admit I’m getting tired of hopping over the traveler, so either I put some steps in to help or get rid of it, but It’s part of the structure, so......

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2020 at 6:05 AM, jetfuel said:

Could go to a spectra bridle like tbe Seascape 24 or 18 

 

Dunno, that system seems a bit vague as far as control.  Light, stow-able, but fiddly at best.  On the other hand, it is basically the different expression of the inverted V ^^^^. Maybe it works better with the hull shape?  Like wider is better for a bridle because of weight concerns?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add that I tried the inverted V on the traveler because I had to go with 2 traveler cars, so I had the base.  Seemed logical at the time.  Then it initiated more head scratching than anything else.  But I’m on main sheet system version 14 or something, so may it’s congenital....^_^

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Amati said:

Dunno, that system seems a bit vague as far as control.  Light, stow-able, but fiddly at best.  On the other hand, it is basically the different expression of the inverted V ^^^^. Maybe it works better with the hull shape?  Like wider is better for a bridle because of weight concerns?

Very simple but need very strong vang to flatten the main 

designed by a mini sailor and works well on tbat particular boat 

Personally I prefer a big traveller 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

Very simple but need very strong vang to flatten the main 

designed by a mini sailor and works well on tbat particular boat 

Personally I prefer a big traveller 

 

 

Me too, really!  Well, here you can see it blocking the entire back half of the cockpit:
(IPad turned it sideways of course)  it’s the black thing in front of the tiller, spanning the whole beam- end sheeting

 

3573814A-D79D-411F-A367-7D7D2330376C.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/7/2020 at 2:02 AM, WGWarburton said:

Thanks for the input... Yes, that's what I meant- letting the car run the length of the traveller... I've tried this in the past but it's often resulted in a jammed car, so don't generally do it. I was wondering if there's a workaround but it sounds like easing the sheet and centreing the car prior to tacking is the way to go...

 A contributory factor is that the control line has several purchases, so there's a LOT of rope to manage... maybe it'd be better to set it up as a single control line each side and try and route them to a winch? The kite winches might work, are pretty close and redundant when needed for this... makes me wonder why this hasn't been used previously but maybe with full crew there was simply no need...?  Hmm...

Cheers,

              W.

Short tacking? on most systems you can set the lines so that the car moves a bit side to side, but I just centre it and have the sheet trimmed to suit. Usually you have a lot going on and you want the main to self tack. My set up is double ended so once Ive settled in I can release the leeward cleat and raise the  car to windward if I want twist. BTW twist is your friend solo.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Amati said:

Me too, really!  Well, here you can see it blocking the entire back half of the cockpit:
(IPad turned it sideways of course)  it’s the black thing in front of the tiller, spanning the whole beam- end sheeting

 

3573814A-D79D-411F-A367-7D7D2330376C.jpeg

Yeah see what you mean 

the Seascape’s bridle option would probably work with well 

very simple 

my cockpit below btw 

 

B6F0F1A0-5FA3-4E8D-8D46-C1D2B214F271.jpeg

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

Yeah see what you mean 

the Seascape’s bridle option would probably work with well 

very simple 

my cockpit below btw 

 

B6F0F1A0-5FA3-4E8D-8D46-C1D2B214F271.jpeg

Nice cockpit floor!  2 up would be fun, but grinders look a bit fiddly 1 up.  How high off the floor is your traveler?  FWIW, I use blocks more and more, rather than winches.  I guess I like the feel of a rope floor....

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Amati said:

Nice cockpit floor!  2 up would be fun, but grinders look a bit fiddly 1 up.  How high off the floor is your traveler?  FWIW, I use blocks more and more, rather than winches.  I guess I like the feel of a rope floor....

It’s a Figaro and I sail it a lot single handed 

one winch for the runners and one for the jib 

lewmar 40’s 

traveller is about 16 inches off the floor 

tbe cockpit is NuTeak 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

It’s a Figaro and I sail it a lot single handed 

one winch for the runners and one for the jib 

lewmar 40’s 

traveller is about 16 inches off the floor 

tbe cockpit is NuTeak 

 

 

16” would be nice.  Time for some steps.  

Did you install the Nu Teak?  It looks good,  is it heavy?  Do you like it?
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like it a lot 

I repainted the deck of the boat with new anti skid but didn’t do the cockpit 

when I launched we were going to paint the cockpit but it was a pain to cover it up and wait for tbe perfect day so I went the Nuteak direction 

done in 1 day 

I have had it for 6 years now and no complaints 

nice on the feet and doesn’t make noise when you drip a winch handle or something 

the painted floor would have ended up damaged After that amount of time anyway 

also gave gave the boat a little Euro look and feel 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2020 at 3:56 AM, JL92S said:

“KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid” theory I think applies here. The twin block system I only see used by either some catamarans or super yachts. I see the logic but I’m not sure it will be any less obstructive than the traveller. Solo sailing is about making things easier for yourself and being able to leave the mainsheet to do its own thing particularly in tacks and gybes is a good thing

Kind of the difference between hanging or tripping?  I realized I’ve been nibbling around the edges of my real main point- how much running around you have/want to do.  I realize now that single handed sailing on anything should be ideally set up like a single hand dinghy-  everything easily at hand while at the helm.  You can’t always depend on an auto pilot.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jetfuel said:

I really like it a lot 

I repainted the deck of the boat with new anti skid but didn’t do the cockpit 

when I launched we were going to paint the cockpit but it was a pain to cover it up and wait for tbe perfect day so I went the Nuteak direction 

done in 1 day 

I have had it for 6 years now and no complaints 

nice on the feet and doesn’t make noise when you drip a winch handle or something 

the painted floor would have ended up damaged After that amount of time anyway 

also gave gave the boat a little Euro look and feel 

 

 

 

 

Thanks!  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2020 at 9:06 AM, jetfuel said:

Very simple but need very strong vang to flatten the main 

designed by a mini sailor and works well on tbat particular boat 

Personally I prefer a big traveller 

 

 

Yep, me too. You can never have enough traveller.....2122119531_IMG_0949(2).thumb.JPG.6245be54bda0e3a625aaccd22be47a2e.JPG

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2020 at 5:06 AM, jetfuel said:

Yeah see what you mean 

the Seascape’s bridle option would probably work with well 

very simple 

my cockpit below btw 

 

B6F0F1A0-5FA3-4E8D-8D46-C1D2B214F271.jpeg

There's an example of a real short traveler...and it would raise the question of how marginal having a traveler at all would be...but then consider where the cleat would be if that block was all the way down by the deck and how much easier it is to uncleat in a rush just a foot up when sitting on the weather rail. 

 Sometimes it's best to leave shit where it is and just deal with it... 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m still undecided, it will take sometime getting to know the boat i guess and try getting used to the existing setup whilst singlehandling before tearing out the full with mid cockpit track thats currently on it and has been for years.. I’d like to keep the boat kind of true to its heritage but thats the only real thing i can see that i immediately wanted to change design wise.

First jobs still to complete are rudder bearing replacement and a bottom paint birthday for the old girl.

The Nu teak does look good in there @jetfuel What brand of tiller is that?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, FixinGit said:

I’m still undecided, it will take sometime getting to know the boat i guess and try getting used to the existing setup whilst singlehandling before tearing out the full with mid cockpit track thats currently on it and has been for years.. I’d like to keep the boat kind of true to its heritage but thats the only real thing i can see that i immediately wanted to change design wise.

First jobs still to complete are rudder bearing replacement and a bottom paint birthday for the old girl.

The Nu teak does look good in there @jetfuel What brand of tiller is that?

 

Tiller came with the boat 

I think they are still available from Beneteau France but rudely expensive

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Mark K said:

There's an example of a real short traveler...and it would raise the question of how marginal having a traveler at all would be...but then consider where the cleat would be if that block was all the way down by the deck and how much easier it is to uncleat in a rush just a foot up when sitting on the weather rail. 

 Sometimes it's best to leave shit where it is and just deal with it... 

 

It’s over 6 ft so yes there is a difference when you drop It 3 ft to leeward 

Figaro has a huge main I single hand most of the time  

tiller in one hand and play the traveller with the other 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, jetfuel said:

It’s over 6 ft so yes there is a difference when you drop It 3 ft to leeward 

Figaro has a huge main I single hand most of the time  

tiller in one hand and play the traveller with the other 

 

 

Looks to me it only extends across the cockpit sole. That's 6 ft? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Looks to me it only extends across the cockpit sole. That's 6 ft? 

It looks like a Figaro 1 which is a beam of some 3.25 mtrs, so sounds about right. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Sorry Mark,

Unsure what you mean regards ? 

 

I find it hard to imagine the cockpit sole in that boat is so wide a 6 ft man could lay down crossways in it. That traveler is only about 4ft. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Mark K said:

I find it hard to imagine the cockpit sole in that boat is so wide a 6 ft man could lay down crossways in it. That traveler is only about 4ft. 

It is a Figaro 1 

aost 11 Ft wide at that point 

the traveller goes even with the winches 

done 10,000 miles on the boat  so have a rough idea about tbe length of the traveller

I will measure it next time 

definitely not 4 ft 

ever even sailed on one ?

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Mark K said:

I find it hard to imagine the cockpit sole in that boat is so wide a 6 ft man could lay down crossways in it. That traveler is only about 4ft. 

So split it with you lol 

5 ft after measuring it 

what ducking difference does it make anyway 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jetfuel said:

So split it with you lol 

5 ft after measuring it 

what ducking difference does it make anyway 

    Sorry I insinuated you might have a short traveler. ;) 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Are you trying to kill 'em all in one go?!!?

They’re all mad as cut snakes. They spend most of the time stacked on the rail as near to the bow as possible screaming more more more ....

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/14/2020 at 4:20 PM, Amati said:

Me too, really!  Well, here you can see it blocking the entire back half of the cockpit:
(IPad turned it sideways of course)  it’s the black thing in front of the tiller, spanning the whole beam- end sheeting

 

3573814A-D79D-411F-A367-7D7D2330376C.jpeg

Open the pic in preview, rotate it and save it.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

There's one well-known ocean racer who's used a twin mainsheet system....

 

44476269664_af6edd6d5b_b.jpg

 

Jean-Luc Van Den Heed.... who sailed his MatMut to a 'win' in the last Golden Globe Race. That was, for those who've forgotten already, a single-handed RTW race in often serious weather and seas. There were other competitors who had similar setups - you'll need to ask yon Don Macintyre, a fellow 'Strine.

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, bilbobaggins said:

twin mainsheet system

a tad more finicky than a traveler BUT infinitely adjustable .

Link to post
Share on other sites