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The Swedish Experiment


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First of all:  how is your trip to Spain going? Now. Any single person who doesn’t die from this is excellent news. And anyone who doesn’t contract the virus is also good news. For starters

Everyone in this thread is probably in a nursing home. They sound like Joe Biden trying to form a cognitive sentence.    "Uh, but, cases only, g.g.g.g.go down with lock-down." 'If you don't w

Im hazarding a guess that you have never had to walk into the waiting room and tell a husband, son daughter father that their wife mother daughter has passed. Because today in the USA 512 doctors or n

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

You say they don't change direction that might be put to the test...though you right I think they have already sold the more deaths less economic impact message well and won't change.

This not the one I was talking about but a Swedish epidemiology pundit.

This only a few days old and at interview beginning Sweden 160 deaths/million versus UK 240/million is mentioned. Sweden today only couple days later is already 240/m and chasing the UK down at faster rate.

Also his Stockholm herd immunity is a nonsense with most agreeing Stockholm is around 25% infected. The automatic social distancing mentioned plays big role in that so Sweden suppressing more than it looks like.

His point about deaths occuring with lock-downs lifting and death rates balancing out is interesting. The US is the one to watch there. 

NZ the beginning (Kiwi doesn't mention Aust the prick) . Sweden from 3.00

 

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15 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

The Swedish non-lockdown "herd immunity" approach to Covid-19 gets plenty of mentions in various threads, so maybe Sweden need a suppository of posts following their progress.

I suppose you mean repository, unless you are suggesting that this thread shoves itself up Sweden’s arse?

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19 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

This only a few days old and at interview beginning Sweden 160 deaths/million versus UK 240/million is mentioned. Sweden today only couple days later is already 240/m and chasing the UK down at faster rate.

In context to Norway next door <40 deaths /million. 

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^^

You guys are hillarius.

Population Sweden 10.23 million in 2019.

https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+sweden&amp;oq=population+of+sweden&amp;aqs=chrome..69i57.6595j0j7&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8

You MUPPETS both seem happy with the 2192 death toll figure.

WTF is .......... "only a few days old and at interview beginning Sweden 160 deaths/million versus UK 240/million is mentioned"

you MUPPETS roll out with your now familiar lets scare the bejesus out of ourselves routine.

MUPPET MATHS

2192/10.23 = 214 lets call it 215.

NOT 160

DICKHEADS

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I do agree that a thread on the Swedish experiment would be a good idea; 

but we're not off to a very good start . . 

How 'bout if you check your facts, and remember to be civil, before you post? 

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20 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

WTF is .......... "only a few days old and at interview beginning Sweden 160 deaths/million versus UK 240/million is mentioned"

It's a new invention called UTube...try it and you will get rid of your Super 8 guaranteed.

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15 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

^^

You guys are hillarius.

Population Sweden 10.23 million in 2019.

https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+sweden&amp;oq=population+of+sweden&amp;aqs=chrome..69i57.6595j0j7&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8

You MUPPETS both seem happy with the 2192 death toll figure.

WTF is .......... "only a few days old and at interview beginning Sweden 160 deaths/million versus UK 240/million is mentioned"

you MUPPETS roll out with your now familiar lets scare the bejesus out of ourselves routine.

MUPPET MATHS

2192/10.23 = 214 lets call it 215.

NOT 160

DICKHEADS

2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:


1302140431_ScreenShot2020-04-26at10_17_51.thumb.png.7093e6c1700b200b2e28b6e9ae6f5b5f.png

 

The higher the death toll in Sweden and the more wrong the Swedish herd immunity approach is, the better.

Why? Because that reinforces more that the shutdown approach was the right method of dealing with covid-19. If in 18 months time it is confirmed, it means that we saved many lives here in Aus.

Dickhead

 

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It's way too early to know if the Swedish strategy is better than others. Give it a year, then it may be clear. Whatever strategy a country takes is probably reasonable as long as its health resources aren't overwhelmed.

Many are lauding New Zealand's approach, yet its death rate at the moment is higher than Australia (4 vs 3 per million respectively), but likely that will change. Also, swedes are voluntarily imposing their own "lockdown", so it's not really much of a different strategy, just different public policy to achieve the same outcome. It also gives the government a good reason not to provide economic stimulus, so it's more of an interesting economic study at this stage.

Given the arrival of summer, it may be that infection rates go up as people come out of houses and mingle in the warm summer air (where northern European "warm" is still brisk to those who live within 40° of the equator). It's all guesswork.

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3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

 

422181408_ScreenShot2020-04-26at10_17_51.png.2238faafbf4d14bf3f7d67236ccbaf83.thumb.png.ea05a4f77aca8eab700ea58b74a34686.png

Warning. Ignore Belgium COVID mortality per capita...the UK should be the highest.

Belgium are the exact opposite to the UK who understate their Covid fatalities not by design but by their Covid stats being split over two time schedules around 2 weeks apart for hospital and outside hospital deaths.

EWMIlRiUEAEC1ZR.jpeg.e3afa930a9b9602840dd4da8532d535b.jpeg

Belgium made a conscious decision to count every death as COVID the opposite to say China.

So for instance in China a COD for a person with chronic virus symptoms and coughing up blood over the windscreen and who has a virus induced heart attack driving to hospital crashes and dies. The COD will be a car accident in fact they might even put down to a lightening strike if it occured on a cloudy night in Wuhan.

Same car accident occurs in Belgium who count every death COVID related even if it isn't, you are a COVID death.

In fact if as the First Responder to that accident and you had a huge shock and died because the victims head couldn't be removed from the rear view mirror, you are a COVID death in Belgium.

That's why a country with only 11 million people has chalked up 6,700 COVID deaths, but a hospital system that isn't overloaded and yet are Gold medalists in deaths per capita. The UK should be the Gold medal holder on that chart.

The method of proving that the UK is way out of whack is simply to take European EuroMOMO partner countries Weekly "Z Scores" used to standardize series and enable comparison mortality pattern between different populations or even between different time periods. See below.

PS. The UK are not alone. Others are doing it. For instance in the US and NYC in particular who at 22 April had sort of misplaced 4K excess deaths since last month on the official COVID related count.

Weekly "Z Scores" All Deaths Up to 2020 Week 16

IMG_20200426_140102.jpg

IMG_20200426_140159.jpg

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10 hours ago, RobG said:

It's way too early to know if the Swedish strategy is better than others. Give it a year, then it may be clear. Whatever strategy a country takes is probably reasonable as long as its health resources aren't overwhelmed.

Rob I feel like a prick disagreeing with you the sensible and thinking Covid one, but I must. So to respect that I have to go "word salad" which bores many to death and some repeats from my posts elsewhere that refer to Sweden. 

Any Swedes who have dialled in please don't read this as criticism. It is hopefully an impartial appraisal.

Yes Rob as you say the Jury is out on Sweden as most countries but IMHO this is a case of OJ Simpson is in the dock. 

The prosecutions case is assisted by the fact the Swedes to their credit unlike many have transparent and readily available Covid data. Flip side is they are masters at spinning it for political gain domestically and maybe internationally and that should be judged accordingly.

Their approach being the odd man out in Europe, if not globally, means a lot of people with very large epidemiology heads have been examining their virus response approach and outcomes in a lot of detail compared to others, not just because it is contry to theirs. Without that I couldn't write this.

So starting see graph below on Euro virus responses.

_111648245_european_countries_lockdown_cv_640-3x-nc.thumb.png.cc09339c4800769f30f3e8c9cdccf2f8.png

Their expert examination is aided by the fact Professor Johan Giesecke, is one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, an advisor to the Swedish Government, WHO and ECDPC scientist. He also appears to be the face of Sweden's response not so much Anders Tegnell directing Swedish strategy. Maybe that's a media thing. As you can see from what follows, maybe not.

Typically Swedish very blunt about what he thinks which is refreshing. For instance he is scathing of the UK's response. That is principally due to the fact that up until 16 March (implemented a week later, see above graph), the UK were mirroring the Swedes. This is not widely appreciated in the UK due to some slight of hand political shitfuckery there. 

However because of that late UTurn by the UK their outcomes become very instructive for the EU.

While many disagree with his approach they do appear to respect him very highly as a scientist.

Is Sweden That Different.

Firstly the appearance that Sweden's approach is literally one of ignore COVID is false. That being they have solely a "mitigation/herd immunity" strategy. That is literally only some "hand washing" and maybe isolate those most at risk. That is incorrect. They have a "mitigation' and "suppresion" hybrid approach as follows.

- Large groupings outside normal day to day business are prohibited.

- An extraordinarily large number of people live alone courtesy of some decades old Swedish Govt social engineering.

- The Swedes are the world's original social distancers by culture. This pic courtesy of @The Dark Knight the OP of this thread says it all. Anyone who has spent time in Sweden will recognise this is not an exaggeration.

91272820_10206940071215872_4281039644772007936_n.thumb.jpg.d1b66bdaab7596704554a69dd6f6a684.jpg.85ad96f77056276e44269cd957933c81.jpg

- Apart from the above their viral response is textbook "mitigation" so no test/trace and so any reliable case data is only that produced via the hospital front door. Much like the UK and US and exact opposite to say Germany in their same postcode.  

Therefore with the above caveat on case data, Sweden's Active Cases and Daily Case numbers as they relate to impacting upon hospital admissions can be regarded as reasonably reliable for broadbrush comparisons for trajectory only. Sweden is arguably looking more towards a plateau than a peak. Iceland having that with no lock down and the UK with late lockdown are headed maybe instructive. 

20200425_WOC281.thumb.png.3c7cc764654754f301e2d045d7cc0a38.png

Why have Sweden adopted this "go it alone" strategy?

- One of the worst health care systems in Europe so the economic loss of "suppression" versus "saving lives" is a closer equation for Sweden.

- They have a higher proportion of over 65's compared to Europe so on paper are at risk, but they are located outside more dense locales like Stockholm and older people transmit less. Younger people transmit more, but less chance of ending up in body bag. The US with NYC and UK with London have a similiar demographic.

- Neighbourly considerations. Sweden immediate neighbours are Norway to the north which while in single market, free movement of people etc, is not in the EU Common Market so there is an element of existing border controls to reduce impact upon them. The comparative numbers show that has worked.

The other the Netherlands in the EU to the south were a very early lock down country as shown in the above graph. Interestingly there is an argument they have not benefited by  having Sweden as a neighbour even with that.

- The Government know they are not doing a true "mitagation/herd immunity" strategy but  a "hybrid" as outlined above, so covering their bets to some extent.

- Finally the social question every country faces and it's Government faces? What is an acceptable mortality rate? The Swedes simply are prepared to 

Observations

I can't cite the following observations as it would take for ever. However they are only drawn direct from global epidemiology leaders like Sweden's Giesecke and the UK's Ferguson and others. No crackpots or media interpretations.

- Sweden is still seeing day-on-day increases in death and infection rates, whereas places like the UK which is not brilliant in terms of testing and death rate it's has now fallen to below R1 for infection (how many people one person can infect).

- Regardless of what Sweden has done the Infection-Fatality Rate in cities or regions of higher population are all in the same range 0.7 - 0.9% with the only difference being demographics etc.

- Sweden claim with mitigation the correct policy is only to protect those most at risk only and this will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product.” Putting aside that globally isolating those at risk has not worked including in Sweden, Sweden claims the flattening of any curves is due to the most vulnerable dying first. That may well be true but Sweden goes one step further and says that is as much to do with a lockdown as anything else. So to interrogate that.

- The infection rate will always tell the right not a different story. For instance taking the largest sources of mortality with similiar demographics being London, Stockholm and New York where both London and New York closed down arguably later than they should have putting their respective health care systems on the edge of imploding and Stockholm with no close down and similarly so but having already accepted as a nation a higher mortality rate.

They all have an infection crate within 5% of a band between 20 - 25%. Furthermore this undermines Sweden's thoughts that a much higher "herd immunity" rate as a “by-product” of say 60% or higher can be produced. If it had been produced with the above 0.7 - 0.9% CFR existing in those three cities, Stockholm would be a killing field.

- Overlaying this is there being no evidence yet that prior exposure to COVID guarantees any level of immunity. The WHO have been saying this for weeks to warn countries of the folly attached to Immunity Passports.

- Sweden are claiming that post lock-down other countries fatality rate will pick up which not many will dispute. However the further claim being they will then catch to Sweden (who has not incurred the economic impact of a close down) is solely based upon Sweden enjoying "herd immunity."

Yet the sole underlying foundation to Sweden's thoughts is "herd immunity" will be achieved but with a higher front end shock. The problem is that 'herd immunity" hasn't occured. 

So using the three cities on a per capita basis Stockholm has climbed/is climbing the ladder faster with the benefit of hoping for a larger parachute than London and NYC. The reality is all three after lock-downs are done, all three have the same sized parachute within +/- 2.5%.

Conclusion

To paraphrase Professor Johan Giesecke on behalf of Sweden only a week ago and which he has guided Sweden's response according to him, which on the evidence appears true.

"Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people." 

Now the gloves come off.

That from Giesecke a scientist who may or may not ever ever ventured inside a hospital and or has any clinical experience with respiratory viruses. From one who has and is working on the front line involving body bags not sitting behind a desk writing papers and is comparing CONVID to the flu as follows:

"This is as different as Ebola is from an ingrown toenail.

This is a very very different disease"  ..."Normally, a viral or bacterial infection of the lung will cause it to fill with fluid and pussy tissue as a consequen ce of the infection. That isn't what happens with Covid -19. What they are seeing is that there  is something wrong with the blood vessels in the lung."  Intensive Care Specialist Professor Hugh Montgomery 7 April - London UK.

Yes Rob I'm a ventriloquist. The place to go on SA if you want to know "How Covid-19 Kills You" by @RobG

So back to the Swedish brainfart extraordinary.

Even those into writing papers down the road from Sweden in the Netherlands underwriting what Montgomery has said above.

3 April - COVID-19: A Comprehensive Pathophysiological Approach 

OR maybe this and experiences predating the brainfart from Stockholm a week ago from the US.

cardiovascular/thrombotic/Covid characteristics 

Then again to finish to paraphrase from my daughter the Paramedic on the frontline.

"Dad they should have been with a Blood/O2 less than 40 fucking stone dead, but these people were still talking and lucid and we get some to hospital and they end up Ok we are told..... Yet we get others down a bit on O2 normal and happy to walk to the truck unassisted and they have a friggin heart attack.. bang dead on the spot even with Defrib before getting some out their front door...this virus and heart attack shit every 5 minutes is driving us insane."..."Shit ..are you eating well darling??..

 So Professor Johan "it's only a mild disease and similar to the flu" Giesecke have you got anything to say about the above frontline experiences, work and procured knowledge of the above people numbering in thousands around the globe?  I thought not. Just a bit of Swedish political propaganda hoping no one will notice mate.

....................................

The Interview the Swedish Govt have Tried to Ban Internationaly

Anyway haven't quite finished with you yet Professor Johan. You say again last week paraphrasing;

"The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%. At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available"

So OK Johan would you mind to finish this (you) off quickly after your bad flu political shitfuckery happy to go to a Q&A format?

JG. No problem I'm Swedish...and yes the only bad flu thing I may have embellished. Forgive me.

JS: Mate your fatality rate of 0.1% you said just last week you are happy with that in terms of what world experts are saying? It seems low depending on locale?

JG: It's looking shakey...can I pass on that one?

JS:  OK Johan just this once. Your 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden having already had the disease?

JG: No that is wrong it's around 20- 25% at best as the NYC, London and Stockholm data shows.

JS: So why did you suggest 50% happening like soon?

JG; I made that up

JS: Fuck...So your whole "herd immunity" concept thing is dead?

JG; Dead as a duck....yep culled the herd shit by over half, its a goner.

JS: But you said it was alive last week?

JG: Jack I was speaking "political" not "scientific" then.

JS: So Johan when do you speak "scientific"?

JG: Only occasionally these days..you know how it goes.

JS. Jesus fucking Christ. So when does this antibody testing you speak of start happening in Sweden or the UK?

JG: No idea ...is Sweden doing that??

JS: Mother of God..So basically Johan you have just been pulling Swedish CONVID political shit out of your arse and casting it on the world stage to make you Viking lot look like geniuses??

JG: I would prefer words easing and super warrior geniuses.

JS: No worries mate ..great interview as usual. Someone get me out of here before I kill this cunt.

JG: But what about our next one??

JS: Next fucking what Johan the Murderer??

JG: You know the interview about my theory Boris Johnson is the host for my bad flu. The Chinese aren't to blame and why we put more IKEA pieces in to drive you lot mad with leftovers.

JS: Sure Dr Gorballs get your people to contact my people.

............................................

Just a more serious note.

It is pretty clear by the data Sweden is going to get fucking belted.

However to their credit the social question of what is an acceptable mortality rate Sweden appears to have answered and accepted a high one. Higher again versus prediction that a domestic issue for them.

The Government appears to have facilitated that with no national objection so far. That is their decision and should be respected from those outside. Most Government's don't facilitate that discussion domestically and even if the Swedish administration haven't quite done that, many think they have. 

However when some lying Swedish cocksucker who has moved from science to political shitfuckery and starts preaching on the international stage he can stick that shit up his blond Viking arse. 

Note: Declared interest. I have a child in the Netherlands and another in a another country, a front line Paramedic who tells me stuff that makes your hair curl. The latter makes me very scathing of those that promote this is "only a bad flu" whack-job narrative. Also explains my Covid global interest.

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While writing I see Jack's answer above, so will add that a couple of things different there: about 50% were already working from home, low birth rate and small families, pretty disciplined. As mentioned above it's a one year strategy and imo likely to fail but the wild card is immunity - if it turns out that being infected and surviving does not equate to immunity then this is a disaster.

So similar to opening up Las Vegas it's a giant control group. Personally I started limiting interactions in Feb. and by March1 really shut it down as much as possible. There will be treatments and/or vaccines and until then want to limit exposures as much as possible.  Hoping for the best for all of us and would be really happy to be in Canada or NZ instead of Texas. oh well. Note: I limit my shitfights and razor sharp cutting witticisms to PA so invite anyone that feels the need to castigate me just drop by, it's a few doors down the hall.

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6 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

While writing I see Jack's answer above, so will add that a couple of things different there: about 50% were already working from home, low birth rate and small families, pretty disciplined. 

Yes super important..they are more lock-down than it appears by culture etc.

24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

An extraordinarily large number of people live alone courtesy of some decades old Swedish Govt social engineering.

 

24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The Swedes are the world's original social distancers by culture. This pic courtesy of @The Dark Knight the OP of this thread says it all. Anyone who has spent time in Sweden will recognise this is not an exaggeration.

 

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One thing that is not mentioned in Swedish media is the ethnicity of the deaths in Sweden. It seems that immigrant death rates are much higher than it is for ethnic Swedes. This was mentioned to me recently by a Swedish friend. Part of the problem is that they live in ghetto with a far greater population density and culturally very different to Swedes. As a result the lack of enforced social distancing allows covid-19 to run rampant in their communities.

But that's an acceptable outcome for Swedes. 

Sweden wants the world think that Sweden is welcoming to all and thus are better than everyone else. But that is once again is lust Swedish smoke and mirrors. The Swedish mentality is that the refugees should be grateful that they are allowed to live in the greatest country on earth and are being financially supported. Sweden pretty much accepts that many immigrants will never work in Sweden, but that's ok because Swedes are happy to pay for that because the children will become Swedes. Swedes forget that in many cultures there is a matter of pride for the man to work and support his family. So whilst in high immigration countries like Aus and Canada, unemployment levels for immigrants and locals is similar, in Sweden it is vastly different. Sweden has systemic racism and even Swedish papers have reported that CV's with foreign name get ignored and the same CV with a Swedish sounding name progresses further.

Swedes on the whole are happy to have immigrants, as long as they don't move into their neighbourhood. Swedes are no less racist than many other countries.

The high immigrant infection and death rate is not an issue for Swedes as if they were more like Swedes then they would be ok.   

 

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3 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

One thing that is not mentioned in Swedish media is the ethnicity of the deaths in Sweden. It seems that immigrant death rates are much higher than it is for ethnic Swedes.

Hop that is a global thing. Stats in UK USA etc aligning up. Mostly socio economic and understandable ..some suggesting though a higher risk genological thing but too early to tell.

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The interview in Nature with the leading Swede health person who is driving their bus was interesting.  In one way claiming it was a legislative limit that there was no legal means to enact a quarentine similar to neighboring countries and another that the cultural approach of gently suggested rules will work fine and prove more effective.  I don't claim to know anything about epidemiology but, it certainly seems like some big social experiment where you are gambling with the lives of the population.

As Jack so eloquently keeps reminding others the US is pretty much a fuck show.  One to be owned. Regardless of nit picking this is a democracy that made choices at the electoral level and even had the chance to make changes at the congressional level, but declined in both cases to look beyond some very narrow ideological goals and realities.

 

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9 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

One thing that is not mentioned in Swedish media is the ethnicity of the deaths in Sweden. It seems that immigrant death rates are much higher than it is for ethnic Swedes. This was mentioned to me recently by a Swedish friend. Part of the problem is that they live in ghetto with a far greater population density and culturally very different to Swedes. As a result the lack of enforced social distancing allows covid-19 to run rampant in their communities.

The social divide issue can be applied generally to all countries, e.g. Singapore's "second wave" has been among foreign workers housed in tightly packed dormitories, it's essentially the same issue for those in aged care facilities, prisons and any form of detention. Lower socioeconomic demographics tend to live in more crowded conditions where social distancing (the only preventative measure that is known to work) simply isn't possible.

I'm sure many similar and truely tragic stories will emerge from countries where there are repressive regimes, large populations of poorly treated and low paid (sometimes unpaid) foreign workers and no independent reporting. E.g. Saudi Arabia, with very hight foreign worker dependence, reports over 17,000 cases with only 139 deaths and a deaths/million ratio of 4. That puts it on par with New Zealand.

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As of today, Trump criticized the Swedish approach by saying "look at their numbers" (or something like that).  All in all, it seems like the Swedes have done well with something like 2700 fatalities.  Maybe not as good as Norway, Finland, or Denmark which all had lockdowns but it certainly seems better than the US has done despite all of our lockdowns.

Here is the WHO's response (of course they disagree with Trump).

The World Health Organization lauded Sweden as a “model” for battling the coronavirus as countries lift lockdowns — after the nation controversially refused restrictions.

Dr. Mike Ryan, the WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday there are “lessons to be learned” from the Scandinavian nation, which has largely relied on citizens to self-regulate.

“I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Ryan noted that instead of lockdowns, the country has “put in place a very strong public policy around social distancing, around caring and protecting people in long-term care facilities.”

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” Ryan said. “In that sense, they have implemented public policy through that partnership with the population.”

He said the country also ramped up testing and had adequate capacity in hospitals to handle any outbreaks.

“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan said.

The country, which has a population of 10.3 million, has seen more than 20,300 cases and 2,462 deaths as of Thursday afternoon — far higher than its Nordic neighbors, which implemented stricter containment measures, the latest data shows.

Thoughts?

Hroth

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27 minutes ago, hrothgar said:

As of today, Trump criticized the Swedish approach by saying "look at their numbers" (or something like that).  All in all, it seems like the Swedes have done well with something like 2700 fatalities.  Maybe not as good as Norway, Finland, or Denmark which all had lockdowns but it certainly seems better than the US has done despite all of our lockdowns.

Here is the WHO's response (of course they disagree with Trump).

The World Health Organization lauded Sweden as a “model” for battling the coronavirus as countries lift lockdowns — after the nation controversially refused restrictions.

Dr. Mike Ryan, the WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday there are “lessons to be learned” from the Scandinavian nation, which has largely relied on citizens to self-regulate.

“I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Ryan noted that instead of lockdowns, the country has “put in place a very strong public policy around social distancing, around caring and protecting people in long-term care facilities.”

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” Ryan said. “In that sense, they have implemented public policy through that partnership with the population.”

He said the country also ramped up testing and had adequate capacity in hospitals to handle any outbreaks.

“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan said.

The country, which has a population of 10.3 million, has seen more than 20,300 cases and 2,462 deaths as of Thursday afternoon — far higher than its Nordic neighbors, which implemented stricter containment measures, the latest data shows.

Thoughts?

Hroth

Do the numbers. They have higher fatality versus population (at this point in time) than the US:

2700 / 10E6 swede =2.7E-4

52000 / 330E6 US = 1.57 E-4

Also note that they ALSO have (had) a severe problem with eldercare facilities death rates.

But this is only the beginning.

Obviously could not have worked in NY. Well, that's how NY started--for early March...then (too late) the shut down nonessential.

The stats are striking though.

For middle age this ain't no flu. MUCH more dangerous. For old--it is a severe risk. For the young--under 25--it is much LESS than the flu.

Total actual number of people in the US under age 55 who have died as of yesterday: 2647 deaths, compared with 965 flu. And that is biased towards the older part of the age range. (Table from CDC)

 

ap 29 COVID19.PNG

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

Do the numbers. They have higher fatality versus population (at this point in time) than the US:

2700 / 10E6 swede =2.7E-4

52000 / 330E6 US = 1.57 E-4

This underscores why its hard to compare countries.  Michigan alone is more comparable from a population standpoint

3700 / 10e6 Michigan = 3.7E-4

And we have had one of the harshest lockdowns in the US.

I am also interested in WHOs comment that    "...if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns."

Hroth

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6 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

But this is only the beginning.

Sweden slow starter but hitting it's stride now. Daily fatalities have overtaken Belgium & Netherlands and CFR (but bit of a bullshit comparative)  is north of 12% now....the herd immunity fanboys are hiding in the closet. Meanwhile daylight to other neighbours Norway and Finland.

EW2rOlAWoAAk8t2.thumb.jpeg.158741bf543c30ed8f2533ee06b1241e.jpeg

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1 minute ago, hrothgar said:

I am also interested in WHOs comment that    "...if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns."

I think the reference is to Swedes being culturally acceptive of social distancing without it being regulated. What Sweden is doing is being blown out of proportion a bit. There are unwritten restrictions and some entertainment operations have been temp closed for not following the spirit of what was expected of them. 

 

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Without a vaccine, we will all* end up in the same place as Sweden, only a question of how long it takes. Without a cure or realistic means to ID and isolate sick, lockdowns are just delaying the next outbreak.
 

And If anything, locking down for the rest of the summer will leave everyone less healthy in the fall, and then it will take off again just like flu and colds thrive in cool, indoor environments.

 

*Australia, NZ, maybe Taiwan and SK, and some Gulf states kept their numbers low enough they can probably eliminate it.

 

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That issue of summer versus fall is on rthe expert's minds as well actually. And yes, you are stating the obvious with respect to ultimate. But we know that we totally fuckedup the initial response (it became a pandemic) and so the proper thing (isolate quarantine sick) wouldn't work.

Obviously if the Fed wasnt so ham=fisted we could get back to that (by getting the numbers near zero, then test/trace) but I am not so sanguine about this outcome...

Hey, if the vaccine fails, that sucks but time is good for treatment too. Very exciting news in Philadelphia today. Look it up.

But if you just let her rip, you can't solve the problem. You just end up with piles of dead bodies and you *still* knock the economy flat for MONTHS.

THat's the enormity of it...

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6 hours ago, hrothgar said:

I am also interested in WHOs comment that    "...if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns."

very few countries can get away with having no lockdowns and an expectation of social distancing being maintained. Sweden has the highest numbers of single person households in the world, and the Swedish "personality" is quite suited to the notion of social distancing. 

This "joke" is very accurate.

On 4/26/2020 at 11:31 PM, jack_sparrow said:

 

91272820_10206940071215872_4281039644772007936_n.thumb.jpg.d1b66bdaab7596704554a69dd6f6a684.jpg.85ad96f77056276e44269cd957933c81.jpg

Try the same approach anywhere else and this will be the result

 

 

In spite of the Swedish "personality", they are not doing too well, as Jack refers to

 

 

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1 hour ago, Controversial_posts said:

Without a vaccine, we will all* end up in the same place as Sweden, only a question of how long it takes.Without a cure or realistic means to ID and isolate sick, lockdowns are just delaying the next outbreak.

*Australia, NZ, maybe Taiwan and SK , and some Gulf states kept their numbers low enough  they can probably eliminate it.

"..without realistic means to ID and isolate"..

Without a "realistic" ...WTF how do you think those countries you listed and more got their mortality rates to fuckall!!!

Why isn't test/trace being done in the US?

Answer - Its a big "C" word straight from Trump's monkey here in the last 30 seconds from 6.30.

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^^^^^^^^^ fast last 30 seconds from 6.30 

1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Obviously if the Fed wasnt so ham=fisted we could get back to that (by getting the numbers near zero, then test/trace) but I am not so sanguine about this outcome...

 

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Without a "realistic" ...WTF how do you think those countries you listed and more got their mortality rates to fuckall!!!

 Why isn't test/trace being done in the US?

Because they are either, a. islands (Taiwan, Singapore, hong kong, Australia, New Zealand), b. Had already gone through SARS (Taiwan p, Hong Kong, SK), or c. Are wealthy police states with small populations (Gulf states).

This gave them strong early advantages, so they had a chance to keep it contained.

Europe, with its 500 million and dense population and the US with 340 mil had no chance of scaling the response fast enough. And the fragmentation between states plus porous borders made it bound to fail, even leader’s hadn’t been incompetent.

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12 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

This gave them strong early advantages, so they had a chance to keep it contained.

Your post wasn't talking about the past and neither was mine...are you completely retarded. 

You are saying there is NO realistic means to ID and isolate. That is horseshit.

It is not happening for lockdown release in the US because of a fucktard political narrative carrying over from the 2016 election.

Don't trust Washington the "Swamp" with your personal data to contain an epidemic....but hey it's OK to give it to Google or FaceFuck.

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Your post wasn't talking about the past and neither was mine...are you completely retarded. 

You are saying there is NO realistic means to ID and isolate. That is horseshit.

It is not happening in the US because of a fucktard political narrative carrying over from the 2016 election.

Don't trust Washington the "Swamp" with your personal data....but hey it's OK to give it to Google or FaceFuck.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/21/opinion/location-data-democracy-protests.html

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32 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Sure, In some places we can identify, trace, quarantine. But not in NYC, too dense, too many people. Pointless to focus effort there.

"In some places we can identify, trace, quarantine. But not in NYC, too dense, too many people. Pointless to focus effort there."

You are a slippery little fucker aren't you.

That is not what you said. 

You indicated there is NO realistic means to ID and isolate anywhere. Countries with low mortality rates were islands and shit. You also ignore Feds opposed to national test/trace.

You say pointless to focus effort at NYC the US's epicenter and major link to the outside world??? You do have strange ideas. Do you know what the word "estranged" means?

BTW Sth Korea not an island and test/trace champion. Seoul greater metro area incl Incheon etc 25 million people so same/maybe greater to NYC greater metro pop & density. <5 (five) deaths. NY 24K deaths.

Entire country 50 million people 250 deaths. Most in smaller city of Daegu where it got away on them.

But hey you keep pulling shit out of your arse. 

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1 hour ago, Controversial_posts said:

Because they are either, a. islands (Taiwan, Singapore, hong kong, Australia, New Zealand), b. Had already gone through SARS (Taiwan p, Hong Kong, SK), or c. Are wealthy police states with small populations (Gulf states).

North America is virtually an island too, only two neighbouring countries, both of which have significantly lower Covid-19 rates. Mainland USA is about the same size as Australia.

I do not trust the numbers coming out of your group c.

USA's problem wasn't caused by people migrating over land borders, it's from those flying in, probably from China. Trump closed the border to Chinese nationals from China early, good move. BUT that was it. No testing or quarantine of 40,000 US citizens returning from China. No testing, no tracing of contacts, nothing.

Australia did the same with one cruise ship, allowing passengers to disembark with no testing or quarantine, resulting in a massive spike in cases and deaths. There is a very definite consequence to not testing, quarantining and tracing contacts.

This has been pointed out to you many, many times already.

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7 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

And who will be needing a fucking lot of replacements. 

same problem Singapore had.  Protect all the locals but forget about the invisible migrant workers in crowded accommodation.

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52 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

who are almost certainly not testing foreign workers.

Actually they are testing foreign workers, most of their cases are among foreigners. I was surprised too, but they are extremely proactive, especially in UAE and Bahrain, and when positive results are found, theyntake them to quarantine centers to isolate so as not to infect those they are living with.

but these are city states, they can contain and contain in ways the West can’t.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

North America is virtually an island too, only two neighbouring countries, both of which have significantly lower Covid-19 rates. Mainland USA is about the same size as Australia.

Totally different, we have 330 million, in 50 states, with no border controls between states and hundreds of thousands of passengers into and out of Europe and China in Jan/Feb.

From a containment point of view, better to think of the US as the Eurozone, which has similar population and ease of movement. 

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

USA's problem wasn't caused by people migrating over land borders, it's from those flying in, probably from China. Trump closed the border to Chinese nationals from China early, good move. BUT that was it. No testing or quarantine of 40,000 US citizens returning from China. No testing, no tracing of contacts, nothing.

Most US cases probably came from Europe, not China. The China infections were mostly on the West coast. But NYC never had a chance... 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

BTW Sth Korea not an island and test/trace champion. Seoul greater metro area incl Incheon etc 25 million people so same/maybe greater to NYC greater metro pop & density. <5 (five) deaths. NY 24K deaths.

South Korea might as well be an Island, their only visitors are via air and sea links, unless we’re talking about the odd defector across the DMZ every few years...

But they had other big advantages:  all their initial cases came from a single cult, making contact tracing much easier. They were already accustomed to wearing masks and had the plan and response infrastructure in place bc of SARS.

And very importantly - SK manufactures testing equipment so they weren’t dependent on others. Plus they are just really organized.

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6 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

From a containment point of view, better to think of the US as the Eurozone, which has similar population and ease of movement. 

So why does Germany have fatality per capita rate one fifth the US?

Comparing Europe with over 8 times pop den to US is fucking rediculous. 300 mile from NYC you are in Maine with Boston between. 300 mile from Berlin a swag of different capitals in many countries.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

So why does Germany have fatality per capita rate one fifth the US?

Good question, but they seem to be doing some things right, especially ramping up testing early that (initially) let them control it. But cases are rising again now... it’s too far embedded to stop in (most of) these  big countries I fear.
 

5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Comparing Europe with over 8 times pop den to US is fucking rediculous.

It’s not the same, but it shares many similarities when it comes to inconsistent rules, free movement, etc. And like in Europe, we are seeing very diverse outcomes. NYC and NE are closer to UK/Spain/France. Texas and Oklahoma not so much...

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9 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

South Korea might as well be an Island, their only visitors are via air and sea links, unless we’re talking about the odd defector across the DMZ every few years...

ETfVDc5WkAQj6VE.jpeg.48011d1c8ace8bea64e8ceac3de7bb5e.jpeg

But they had other big advantages:  all their initial cases came from a single cult, making contact tracing much easier. They were already accustomed to wearing masks and had the plan and response infrastructure in place bc of SARS.

And very importantly - SK manufactures testing equipment so they weren’t dependent on others. Plus they are just really organized.

"South Korea might as well be an Island,...But they had other big advantages: all their initial cases came from a single cult,"

How far is it from China to Korea and their daily passenger movements?

The only island in the world on Covid response opinion is the US. Guess which island will find it is closed off from the world if it fucks up its lift restrictions strategy??

The only cult of note out there is the fucked up one you belong to.

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There is a lot of literature out there that explains why SK was effective at halting the virus, Really not treading any new ground here bro, other than apparently informing you of something you didn’t know, which seems to greatly upset you.

SK isn’t doing lockdowns btw, just social distancing, testing, and contact tracing. But they started with a manageable number of cases and were able to track down and test. We had no tests in the US for a month during which hundreds of unknown cases probably arrived and spread.

It’s apples and oranges son, you aren’t putting that genie back in the bottle. Though It’s fascinating to me how riled up you get when anyone offers a divergent explanation. Sad, but fascinating.

 

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5 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Good question, but they seem to be doing some things right, especially ramping up testing early that (initially) let them control it. 

But you say test/tracing can't be done in densely populated areas? Countries with low fatality rates are islands or run by dictator's. Do they have WiFi in your institution.

10 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

It’s not the same, but it shares many similarities when it comes to inconsistent rules, free movement, etc. And like in Europe, we are seeing very diverse outcomes. NYC and NE are closer to UK/Spain/France. Texas and Oklahoma not so much...

There are 28 countries in Europe with free movement. There are 44 countries in Europe. There is no centralised monetary system for collecting taxes and dealing with a pandemic other than the limited means via the EU28.  

Yet you say US and Europe similiar but by the way Europe has no Texas and Oklahoma.

You need a doctor pronto and one with a straight jacket not a stethoscope.

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I said Compare it to Eurozone, not Europe writ large. 

Anyways, you are missing the point, which was that the response effort in the US was hobbled  many of the same factors that hobbled responses in Europe. Not that Eur= USA, but that they share more in common than either do with New Zealand, or the UAE, for example.

Do try not  to always be pedantic...

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11 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Really not treading any new ground here bro, other than apparently informing you of something you didn’t know, which seems to greatly upset you.

SK isn’t doing lockdowns btw, just social distancing, testing, and contact tracing. 

..Though It’s fascinating to me how riled up you get when anyone offers a divergent explanation. Sad, but fascinating.

"SK isn’t doing lockdowns"

None at all.. 

You should contact people in Sth Korea and tell them they imagined it.

As for "sad, but fascinating" you are even wrong about that, the sad reality is you are just a cunt.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

 

                                                                                                                                                                    calvinpeeingsecond.jpg

x6bolt8rwrk21.png

 

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6 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

like i said, they are back to semi-normal. Dolt

So lying cunt OR is not being at work normal in your eyes because you don't work??

37 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

SK isn’t doing lockdowns btw, just social distancing,

 

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Maybe this has already been said, but comparing Sweden to Belgium and highly populated countries is BS. Anyone knowing a few things about statistics knows that you can tell a lot of different stories with numbers. 

The Swedish approach is interesting, but I would not want to be the person responsible for that approach. Perhaps a year from now we will all agree it was the right approach, but what a risk to take! We still know so little about the virus and the disease, and I am sure all governments make mistakes, but the key seems to be testing and contact tracing (as in South Korea).

 

Stay healthy!

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

So lying cunt OR is not being at work normal in your eyes because you don't work??

I know you’ll just change the subject rather than concede the point , but here’s an economist article on South Korea easing it’s restrictions.

South Korea keeps covid-19 at bay without a total lockdown

https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/03/30/south-korea-keeps-covid-19-at-bay-without-a-total-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR0kWxEjLPZ7qYOHrhVttapFsLFZZGgk6Ch03Lgm7ZyJQMLIVfSCWRGmlFY

 

If you were half a brain cell smarter, you would realize that I’m actually supporting your meta argument for test and trace (where its possible)...

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24 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

I said Compare it to Eurozone, not Europe writ large...

Do try not to always be pedantic...

You never mentioned the word Eurozone??

But if you really want it to be the Eurozone making your idea of Europe being 19 out of the 44 countries so be it. I'm sure you have a cunning plan up your sleeve.

It is not being pedantic you just get everything terribly fucking wrong.

As you are not very good at this, here is a map of Europe to help you out.

images - 2020-05-01T135457.224.jpeg

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17 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

I know you’ll just change the subject rather than concede the point,

South Korea keeps covid-19 at bay without a total lockdown

https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/03/30/south-korea-keeps-covid-19-at-bay-without-a-total-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR0kWxEjLPZ7qYOHrhVttapFsLFZZGgk6Ch03Lgm7ZyJQMLIVfSCWRGmlFY

If you were half a brain cell smarter, you would realize that I’m actually supporting your meta argument for test and trace (where its possible)...

Point was you said Korea had no lock-down when it had a soft- one you didn't know about and kept saying I was wrong. 

You now know. Hint...know the subject before telling someone they are wrong.

"I’m actually supporting your meta argument for test and trace."

So you believe NYC can be test/traced no differently than Seoul has done? If not you are continuing to talk shit.

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9 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Actually are you slightly autistic? You seem to fixate on disproving details rather than the big picture and clearly have no social skills or friendships.

We always seem to end up in the same place when your narrative goes down in flames. 

Is your next post going to be your favourite swallowing black cock sprinkled with a Coronavirus quip one..or have you got some fresh material?

IMG_20200501_143501.jpg

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49 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

Maybe this has already been said, but comparing Sweden to Belgium and highly populated countries is BS. Anyone knowing a few things about statistics knows that you can tell a lot of different stories with numbers. 

Even comparing countries with the same pop density is bullshit if they lie about their Covid mortality numbers.

Belgium who are world leader per capita don't lie, the UK lie their guts out.

What catches up with the liars is real body bags and the "excess mortality" deviation.

The UK should be top of the leaderboard.

Note: These Graphs are 1+ week behind. England 85% of UK population and greater proportion of deaths so representative.

Excess Mortality Week 16 - Z Scale or Mean Deviation.

IMG_20200501_144937.jpg

IMG_20200426_140102.jpg.f71c9f1c21892460b1d0d93eb3d650ac.jpg

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1 hour ago, AnotherSailor said:

Maybe this has already been said, but comparing Sweden to Belgium and highly populated countries is BS. Anyone knowing a few things about statistics knows that you can tell a lot of different stories with numbers. 

 

A Swedish friend mentioned to me about Belgium in a "similar population size and we are doing better" comment. That comparison is all about making Swedes feel good about the way they are tracking.

 

400-protesters-bury-their-heads-in-the-s

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

You never mentioned the word Eurozone??

...? 

yes he did.

7 hours ago, Controversial_posts said:

From a containment point of view, better to think of the US as the Eurozone, which has similar population and ease of movement. 

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45 minutes ago, frenchie said:

 

...? 

yes he did.

He has form deleting and amending after reading replies that is why I double quote him verbatim twice a lot.

Regardless I gave it to him either way as he simply reduced his country count from 44 to 28 or 27 (UK gone) to 19 with UK 2nd largest pop and not in EU or Eurozone and 8 others not in Eurozone. Yes I'm pedantic when I'm told I'm wrong :P

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9 hours ago, Controversial_posts said:

From a containment point of view, better to think of the US as the Eurozone, which has similar population and ease of movement. 

 

8 hours ago, Controversial_posts said:

Really your last post is the definition of pedantic...

Actually are you slightly autistic? You seem to fixate on disproving details rather than the big picture and clearly have no social skills or friendships.

 

8 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

Maybe this has already been said, but comparing Sweden to Belgium and highly populated countries is BS. Anyone knowing a few things about statistics knows that you can tell a lot of different stories with numbers. 

The Swedish approach is interesting, but I would not want to be the person responsible for that approach.....  but the key seems to be testing and contact tracing (as in South Korea)

From a containment point of view, better to think of the US as the Eurozone, which has similar population and ease of movement.

"..You seem to fixate on disproving details rather than the big picture.."

"..the key seems to be testing and contact tracing (as in South Korea).."

In the context of the above posts of bringing Europe into frame as a "big picture" compared to the US and linking containment or suppression strategies. 

Finally where do they stand today with many contemplating and some already easing their suppression strategies.

Here’s a different way of comparing countries that is particularly insightful in showing how they are doing near or after their ‘peak’.

Core idea is to plot new cases v totals to date, to focus on rate of transmission. This helps to bring out deviations from exponential growth. Both graphs are on a per capita basis.

Note: Remember two important caveats. When viewing cases this depends on testing rates where some are case response no tracing like the US and UK and some with higher rates, with or without tracing such as Germany and Korea for example.

The second obviously is population density so with the US and Europe having around a 8:1 differential overlaid by demographics and cultural differences.

Observations.

- The lines are remarkably close prior to the effects of suppression strategies kicking in beyond test/trace (for some) that started earlier.

- Where Sweden sits having a hybrid of natural containment/suppression not just "do nothing" as many believe.

- Shows a selection of European countries plus a single representation for the balance of Europe. 

- Finally where the US and Europe as a "big picture" sit including showing the US's epicentre NY separately.

To understand the graphs and in particular the caveats incl animations to bring in the time dimension this Video will help.

How to Tell if We're Beating Covid-19

I will let you make your own conclusions.

Graphs courtesy of COVID-19 Actuaries Response Group

EW4c7f-WAAA6-mJ.jpeg

EW4c7gEWkAA1KgX.jpeg

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6 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

A Swedish friend mentioned to me about Belgium in a "similar population size and we are doing better" comment. That comparison is all about making Swedes feel good about the way they are tracking.

He will go quiet if you show him the above albeit Belgium in the rest of Europe basket.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/25/2020 at 5:19 PM, The Dark Knight said:

The Swedish non-lockdown "herd immunity" approach to Covid-19 gets plenty of mentions in various threads, so maybe Sweden need a suppository of posts following their progress.

Current death toll is 2192

So Sweden has a Pop of 10, 230, 000 in 2019
C-19 deaths at 2192

That is .02142% that is what was projected by the WHO, CDC and other talking heads.

Compared to what Ahole Cuomo did to the elderly in NY?? Protect the Elderly they said, so AC just infected them all. Now NY State will not have to pay for the care of some many elderly............................. I'd say Sweden is doing just fine.

Here is data from our county where everyone is pretty healthy. These facts I got from current county website.

Quote

Here are some stats for Ventura County. The population at July 1, 2019 was estimated at 842,000 people.
Friday at 5 pm the VC Emergency website was updated and showed 764 confirmed cases of C-19.
Only 15,500 people have been tested out of a pop of 842,000. So it would seem not many feel sick as only those with symptoms can get a test.
764 out of 842,000 is about .001%. But
764 out of 15,000 is about .09, almost .1
out of 764 only 25 have died.

Sounds like Ventura County is a pretty healthy place.
Santa Barbara and SLO Counties are even better.
Seems like we should be unlocking the economies in these areas a bit more.

I've heard that in the LA county over 1000 people will be added to the homeless population because of the draconian economic lock down.
Granted these mega population centers are shit holes.

Without testing everyone, we will never know the real story.

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8 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

So Sweden has a Pop of 10, 230, 000 in 2019
C-19 deaths at 2192

That is .02142% that is what was projected by the WHO, CDC and other talking heads.

Compared to what Ahole Cuomo did to the elderly in NY?? Protect the Elderly they said, so AC just infected them all. Now NY State will not have to pay for the care of some many elderly............................. I'd say Sweden is doing just fine.

Here is data from our county where everyone is pretty healthy. These facts I got from current county website.

I've heard that in the LA county over 1000 people will be added to the homeless population because of the draconian economic lock down.
Granted these mega population centers are shit holes.

Without testing everyone, we will never know the real story.

Deaths adjusted for population. Yep, Sweden is doing just fine.

It's going to be so funny when Swedes realise that they are the pariah of Europe and the borders of their favourite holiday destinations are closed, but their neighbours can go. :)

The Swedes will still probably be trusting their Government...

244934652_ScreenShot2020-05-17at10_36_00.thumb.png.1a414250b2e2409297c8bf8135f6d479.png

 

 

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5 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Deaths adjusted for population..

..The Swedes will still probably be trusting their  Government ..

The real story is reported CoVid deaths to Actual deaths. There is a lot of Govt shitfuckery going on trying to stay off the Death Podium in the CoVid Olympics.

Start with honest Belgium as weirdly they currently report all deaths no matter what the cause, suicides, car accidents the lot as COVID hence their #1 ranking.

Excess mortality rates indicate many should be up with Belgium. For example UK official Health Department daily is 34K (the above graph calc) Bizzarely Govt own Statitician (ONS) relying solely on death certificates is now north of 40K. Excess mortality to 5 year mean is now around 60K nearly double official. I believe UK are now #1 per capita.

Sweden no different as they have large proportion of nursing home deaths both delayed by up 2 weeks in the count and many death certificates not having CoVid the principal cause. 

Many trying to make Sweden a "do nothing" poster child don't appreciate the huge head start Sweden had to combat it in terms of things demographic incl pop density, dwelling density and location etc and hence approach they took. Their slow spread slow start in case count clearly show the advantage they had. However it is now catching up.

EXq522FXgAAaFpD.jpeg

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1 hour ago, SCARECROW said:

Without being crass, I wonder how many of the huge % of Swedes that live alone are currently feeding their cats and dogs the hard way (one finger at a time).

Elderly Swedes dying at home alone with no neighbours noticing them missing is not such an unusual thing. When the smell gets bad then the neighbours report it. Sad but true and all too common there and probably more so now.

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

Elderly Swedes dying at home alone with no neighbours noticing them missing is not such an unusual thing

And as you know Hoppy exacerbated by a shit health system that they and those in Care Homes would be lucky to see the front door of a hospital today.

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13 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

And they are not in the list of countries that are allowed to holiday in Greece this northern summer

Cyprus, Israel, Germany, China, Australia, Japan, Denmark, Austria, Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Albania, North Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Norway.

 

you might think that given the deaths happening, holidays will not be on peoples minds, but the fact that Danes and Norwegians can go on a Greek holiday will have them wondering if they made a mistake trusting the Government.

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