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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Wasn't it more a systemic failure with their aged care facilities?  In that regard they are not the only country to experience that problem.

 

If Covid is running rampant in the community, you are not going to be able to protect aged care residents unless you lock all staff in with the residents.

It's like blaming Scomo for every aged care death in Vic whilst treating Dan as a Saint.

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1 minute ago, The Dark Knight said:

It's like blaming Scomo for every aged care death in Vic whilst treating Dan as a Saint.

There is a lot of blaming going on.  At the end of the day we as individuals have the most control over whether or not we get infected.  Covid-19 doesn't seem to have any tolerance for systemic failure.

3 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

If Covid is running rampant in the community, you are not going to be able to protect aged care residents unless you lock all staff in with the residents.

True but aged care facilities weren't particularly well prepared either with PPE and staff training.

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8 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

There is a lot of blaming going on.  At the end of the day we as individuals have the most control over whether or not we get infected.  Covid-19 doesn't seem to have any tolerance for systemic failure.

As you know, a lot of people do not behave in the way society expects them to behave. This is well known and is why there are so many laws and penalties for breaking them.

So it is very much the responsibility of the government to make and enforce the rules to keep society safe and the governments responsibility when there are failures, such as hotel quarantine.  

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Dangerous?  How?  FFS Jacko.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Dangerous people bullshit

 

"Dangerous?  How?  FFS Jacko.'

"Dangerous people bullshit"

Like this for example 

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I'm not promoting anything however I am questioning lockdown efficacy if their intervention is not timely."

LIE.

Here you are "promoting" NO LOCKDOWN.

Lockdown "efficacy" is NOT MENTiONED.

The ONLY "questioning" of "time," is lockdowns being a WASTE of time.

You said on 5 November of the UK Govt Scientific Advisory Group (SAGE) proposed (but not implemented by Govt) mid Sept "short circuit" lockdown, as follows with emphasis on the word 'WAS'.

"But it was too late then (15 Sept). Cases were already well over 3,000 a day".

--------------------

Then in an immediately preceeding post and the same post about the 15 Sept lockdown you said of another lockdown on the DAY of its actual commencement on 5 November, and with emphasis on the words "REGARDLESS" and "NO POINT."

"Based on the data and past evidence it would appear it is occurring TOO LATE to affect the current curve."

"Regardless there is NO POINT doing it now as it appears the peak has been reached."

Contained there are;

- A UK Govt Scientific Advisory Group (SAGE) proposal dated mid Sept for a "short circuit" lock down in Sept.

- UK Govt Scientific Advisory Group (SAGE) proposed lockdown in early November. 

- A UK Govt lockdown implemented on 5 November. 

On 5 November you said they BOTH are "too late" and "no point'

Yet on 14 November you said;

"As for being "dangerous" I haven't promoted anything  contrary to the current recommendations."

Yet today you say;

"What I've posted is an opinion" when on 14 November you said you were, "promoting."

On 11/14/2020 at 3:40 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

As for being "dangerous" I haven't promoted anything contrary to the current recommendations.  

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:
2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

That IS "promoting' NO LOCKDOWN in the strongest terms.

PS. I will deal with what actually happened in a seperate post. That clearly shows by any objective assessment your "promotion" of no lockdowns is "dangerous" and you are using falsified data to promote that.

2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What I've posted is an opinion 

 

"What I've posted is an opinion."

No you didn't.

An "opinion" is a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

"Promoting" is to encourage something to happen or develop, in your case garner support to no lockdowns. 

You have promoted no lockdowns using falsified data and have continued to use it after you have been told it is false. 

Fraudster.

 

Pretty simple. 

By YOUR OWN hand you ARE a "promoter" and YOU say anyone who 'promotes' anything contrary to current recommendations is "dangerous."

You are on the record for oppossing two scientific recommendations and one Government implementation for two seperate actions. WOW.

Is there such a thing as 'platinum dangerous'?

You have cooked yourself before I have even got got to your falsified data.  

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20 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

As you know, a lot of people do not behave in the way society expects them to behave. This is well known and is why there are so many laws and penalties for breaking them.

So it is very much the responsibility of the government to make and enforce the rules to keep society safe and the governments responsibility when there are failures, such as hotel quarantine.  

The "personal responsibility" brigade tend to forget that some members of society are dickheads. If everyone took personal responsibility equally there'd be no need for the vast bulk of our laws, lawyers, courts and judges, and that's just a small part of the changes. We'd live in a very different world.

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3 minutes ago, Ncik said:

The "personal responsibility" brigade tend to forget that some members of society are dickheads. If everyone took personal responsibility equally there'd be no need for the vast bulk of our laws, lawyers, courts and judges, and that's just a small part of the changes. We'd live in a very different world.

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

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18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

Speed limits

Seat belts

Drink driving

Phone use while driving

Basic road rules

How much education is enough before laws and enforcement are required?

Rights also come with responsibilities, and it appears as though a lot of the "liberty and freedom" and "personal responsibility" brigades forget that, putting society in a worse state. Common sense isn't that common.

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19 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

Because their own decisions impact other people?

Tell me. Are people permitted to make their own decisions about littering, pissing in public places, where they choose to practice their shooting skills, putting a disco tent with PA and lighting on the street in front of your house?..etc and if not, should they be?

Your argument is childish.

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6 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Seat belts

If I'm informed that wearing a seat belt is going to save my life and I choose not to whose fault is that?

If someone "speeding" hits me and I'm not wearing a seat belt and I die whose fault is it?

As for the "speeding" it wasn't that that killed us both but the fact one of us was on the wrong side of the road.

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39 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

disco tent with PA and lighting on the street in front of your house

The difference is putting ear plugs in and dark glasses on.  Which would be ok if it was once a year.  Or twice when you did it.  However if what they wanted was societies norm then you'd be arguing the other way.

At university when I studied public policy I was asked "when in a cannibal country is it alright to eat people"?

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

^^^^^^^^^

True to form....and find a diversion.

On 11/14/2020 at 10:19 PM, jack_sparrow said:

- You manipulate the truth, people's posts and where the truth is inconvenient or can't be ignored, IGNORE it which is bullshitting by omission.

53 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

And you don't add anything to the debate other than dogma.

 

"And you don't add anything to the debate other than dogma."

What "dogma"??? 

What is "dogma"?

"Dogma" is belief in a 'philosophy', or you believe in its 'dogma', or core assumptions.

So yes my "dogma" or 'core philosophy' is one that EXPOSES you as a 'truth twister", one who refuses to 'answer questions', 'falsifies' or posts 'misrepresentative' data to promote a 'dangerous narrative' and is a 'fraudster'.

I would be very happy to cease posting using this philosophy of shining a light on your bullshit. However ONLY YOU can make that happen.

Clearly you don't want to change after being invited many times to do so.

As for;

"And you don't add anything to the debate.." 

You mean the above 'diversionary debate' you are prosecuting to AVOID answering questions going back days if not weeks.

Well try this debate addition on for size 'truth twister'.

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23 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Covid-19 doesn't seem to have any tolerance for systemic failure.

"Covid-19 doesn't seem to have any tolerance for systemic failure."

Correct and why Sweden has changed its NPI response for the 1st wave to now locking down regions incl adding more supporting regulations.

2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

"From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect."

So you are opposed to Sweden's NPI response OR more a case of you bullshit first, then IGNORE it as usual.

2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

Sweden has introduced legislation to override its Constitution and to formulate laws about NPI's.

That is contrary to your unsupported 'opinion' above and this; 

"Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

"In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up."

As usual you post 'opinions' and or 'promote' something WITHOUT ANY evidence, or if evidence is provided, it is falsified or DELIBERATELY misleading by 'omission'.

For instance using the comparison of the basket of Nordic countries and Germany, which is over ten times Sweden's population but quarter the size.

You have this.

IMG_20201119_122034.jpg.74c69bf6bbaa68553f66c8cf1cff8197.jpgIMG_20201119_122346.jpg.46656ad41228c461c4d41bb60f9205c8.jpg

 

From above charts it is patently clear Sweden's approach WASN'T working despite your bullshit claims, and Non Pharma Interventions (NPI's) had to be CHANGED and reinforced by regulations. It is also clear that is now starting to work after reaching a very dizzy height this month.

Compare that to Sweden's immediate Nordic neighbours. Chalk and cheese.

Germany 'bent' their new cases curve by introducing a short circuit national lockdown early this month. That has worked. 

You prosecute a debate to promote but deliberately avoid evidence. It has been your MO since joining SA only in Sept. You wouldn't be a 'sock' of someone banned would you? It is the same MO that got suspended from SA last month, the month after you joined. That's a record.

To continue.

The effectiveness of Sweden's public  'prevention messaging' can be deemed questionable by the above NPI shift. 

One place where it is not is Germany where NPI responsibilty rests with federated states. To combat that 'fragmentation' the German Governments approach is first class and results indicate it works. 

Here is an example of one of their very recent national 'prevention messaging campaigns.' This series is first class.

No irony here for a country that is renown for its productivity, that health authorities see that as a potential 'weak link' in arresting transmission. 

 

Chew on all that 'FRAUDSTER'.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

Sweden is a police state without police.

Australia is a police state with police.

 

Swedes trust their government (foolishly) and rely on the government for their survival. The average Swede cannot understand how people can survive in a society where the government does not look after you from the cradle to the grave. 

Your above comment about Sweden is so far off reality that it is hilarious. You make it sound like it's a hippy commune there LOL

image.thumb.png.91587f2cff05e6e08a75e7938c974d07.png 

I did enjoy some of the non-nanny state aspects of life in Sweden, but they were minor compared to the intrusions into to your life that you get in Sweden.

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

Because their own decisions impact other people?

Tell me. Are people permitted to make their own decisions about littering, pissing in public places, where they choose to practice their shooting skills, putting a disco tent with PA and lighting on the street in front of your house?..etc and if not, should they be?

Your argument is childish.

Meli worse than childish...it's an argument underpinning promotion of a dangerous narrative. 

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9 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:
2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Depends on how much you value liberty and freedom.  From what I see the more you legislate to protect the more you need to legislate to protect.

Government knows best.  Yeah na.

Why not inform people and allow them to make their own decisions?

In that respect I give Sweden a thumbs up.

Sweden is a police state without police.

Australia is a police state with police.

Swedes trust their government (foolishly) and rely on the government for their survival. The average Swede cannot understand how people can survive in a society where the government does not look after you from the cradle to the grave. 

Your above comment about Sweden is so far off reality that it is hilarious. You make it sound like it's a hippy commune there LOL

I did enjoy some of the non-nanny state aspects of life in Sweden, but they were minor compared to the intrusions into to your life that you get in Sweden.

Hoppy good opening two sentences. Says it all.

His 'argument' is not hilarious. It underpins promotion of a dangerous narrative. 

His tools of trade is 'bullshit' and hopes no-one notices. He will ignore you post and you having lived there. That's his MO. 

A dangerous cunt. 

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

His 'argument' is not hilarious. It underpins  promotion of a dangerous narrative. 

His tools of trade is 'bullshit' and hopes no-one notices. He will ignore you post and you having lived there. That's his MO. 

A dangerous cunt. 

There is nothing dangerous about stupid opinions when no one listens to them.

Now Trumps stupid opinions are dangerous.

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25 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Jacko give up. 

Balls in your court.

48 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I would be very happy to cease posting using this philosophy of shining a light on your bullshit. However ONLY YOU can make that happen.

Clearly you don't want to change after being invited many times to do so.

 

25 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The reality is that people actually think more than you do.  

Yep they probably do.

Those people here who with out exception have replied to your post indicating a view that your argument ranges between childish, hilarious to deranged. 

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11 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:
14 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

His 'argument' is not hilarious. It underpins  promotion of a dangerous narrative. 

His tools of trade is 'bullshit' and hopes no-one notices. He will ignore you post and you having lived there. That's his MO. 

A dangerous cunt. 

There is nothing dangerous about stupid opinions when no one listens to them.

"There is nothing dangerous about stupid  opinions when no one listens to them"

Not correct. 

The single biggest issue facing contact tracing teams around the world is people just listening, even in social circles to the @Kate short for Bob of the world.

These people then set out to avoid being traced.

Simply done by NOT answering a tracing team telephone call.

By doing this they avoid isolating for two weeks and avoiding taking time off off work. 

If positive they continue to infect at home (the area of highest transmissions), social settings, on public transport and in the workplace.  

It is a problem amplified where state social support is thin or not properly apportioned and impacts lower socio-economic communities the greatest.

Don't discount the damage someone like this cunt can do here and away from here. 

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Jacko - most of us are bored with your posts.

Wouldn't blame them.

You aren't bored... you are shit scared as you don't get a second chance and sock protection is shut down.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

You prosecute a debate to promote but deliberately avoid evidence. It has been your MO since joining SA only in Sept. You wouldn't be a 'sock' of someone banned would you? It is the same MO that got suspended from SA last month, the month after you joined. That's a record.

"most of us are bored with your posts."

- So how about you post answers to questions posed of you upthread?? There is quite a collection. 

- How about you try and answer questions about your bullshit posts. For example in UK/England Covid hospitalisations were only 10% of hospital occupancy during the 1st wave and well BELOW that now. 

This was to support your anti lockdown narrative and it's promotion.

It was nearly TRIPLE what you claimed.

England Covid Hospital Occupancy to 5 November

IMG_20201118_102254.jpg

Or how about your claim hospital occupancy and critical care beds in particular is now low and you ignore advice in that the UK and England in particular, one has to drill down to regional data.  

So for instance all of NHS England Critical care beds comprising 226 Trusts and occupied by region is as at 8th November;

13 at 100% Capacity

19 at 95%+ Capacity

116 at 80%+ Capacity

78 at -80% Capacity

Again done to support your anti lockdown narrative and it's promotion.

Hardly low is it. 

England Critical Care Bed Occupancy 8 November

EnGp3YFW8AUeNgv.png

Or how about the 7 Day average hospital admissions with COVID-19 trendline by region in England.

This an update to one already posted upthread for the UK by union showing England to be the problem and which you just ignored.

EnH1uWQXUAE-THJ.jpeg

Balls in your court if you want to freshen up thread content with the truth

Bet you fucking don't. You will let your bullshit sit here unchallenged. 

Fraudster.

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2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Jacko - can you tell us in a couple of sentences what your point is?

Most of us have given up reading your shyte.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

So yes my "dogma" or 'core philosophy' is one that EXPOSES you as a 'truth twister", one who refuses to 'answer questions', 'falsifies' or posts 'misrepresentative' data to promote a 'dangerous narrative' and is a 'fraudster'.

 

 

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^^^^^ Still trying to divide. 

The same ploy used by dangerous populist political leaders around the world, so hardly unexpected that one of their deciples drinking their Kool aid, replicates that approach here.

49 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Jacko   Give up.  You are getting boring.  You are so obsessed with maintaining your original position that you ignore the current and relevant data.

"You are....obsessed with maintaining your original position...."

Correct. You are finally very observant.

As for WHY?

"The single biggest issue facing contact tracing teams around the world is people just listening, even in social circles to the @Kate short for Bob of the world.

Don't discount the damage someone like this cunt can do here and away from here."

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:
2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:
2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

His 'argument' is not hilarious. It underpins  promotion of a dangerous narrative. 

His tools of trade is 'bullshit' and hopes no-one notices. He will ignore your post and you having lived there. That's his MO. 

A dangerous cunt. 

There is nothing dangerous about stupid opinions when no one listens to them.

"There is nothing dangerous about stupid  opinions when no one listens to them"

Not correct. 

The single biggest issue facing contact tracing teams around the world is people just listening, even in social circles to the @Kate short for Bob of the world.

These people then set out to avoid being traced.

Simply done by NOT answering a tracing team telephone call.

By doing this they avoid isolating for two weeks and avoiding taking time off off work. 

If positive they continue to infect at home (the area of highest transmissions), social settings, on public transport and in the workplace.  

It is a problem amplified where state social support is thin or not properly apportioned and impacts lower socio-economic communities the greatest.

Don't discount the damage someone like this cunt can do here and away from here. 

As for;

"You are so obsessed with maintaining your original position that you ignore the current and relevant data."

To say that in light of my EVERY post demolishing your bullshit with specific reference to relevant data, that you without exception IGNORE. THEN overlay that where you are a 'data dead zone', unless it is falsified or misleading to promote your dangerous anti lockdown narrative.

You can therefore add 'pathetic-cunt' to your list of many, many shameful descriptors.

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21 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

If someone "speeding" hits me and I'm not wearing a seat belt and I die whose fault is it?

As for the "speeding" it wasn't that that killed us both but the fact one of us was on the wrong side of the road.

Do you seriously not believe that speeding increases the chances and risks associated with driving!? Seriously?! You're an idiot.

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16 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Do you seriously not believe that speeding increases the chances and risks associated with driving!? Seriously?! You're an idiot.

That's not what I said of course speeding increases the risk of an ACCIDENT or COLLISION.  But it isnt the speed that kills.

I see where it has been estimated that 185,000 extra excess deaths will occur in the UK over the next 4 years because of the first lockdown.  That's not Covid-19 deaths.  I guess however that the reason will be attributed to Covid-19.

As for UK hospital occupancy they have yet to reach the levels of the first wave (in terms of bed numbers) even though the number of reported cases is higher by several magnitudes.

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

As for UK hospital occupancy they have yet to reach the levels of the first wave (in terms of bed numbers) even though the number of reported cases is higher by several magnitudes.

"As for UK hospital occupancy they have yet  to reach the levels of the first wave (in terms of bed numbers)"

You continually lie about UK hospital occupancies and the stress on the health care system for treating Covid, particularly critical care. 148 of 226 NHS trusts critical care is over 80% by bed capacity. 32 over 95% or full.

EnGp3YFW8AUeNgv.thumb.png.a0c1e1d3448946cc3742f4edb6da1d93.png

 

You said lockdown in Sept was too late.

You said peak new cases peaked on 5 Nov. It didn't and rose by one-third.

You said lockdown that occured on 5 Nov was too late

IMG_20201118_101602.jpg.c09e1dd7f63e59afe8253c6fabea7cfd.jpgIMG_20201118_101750.jpg.4a64456a096ea8e48aa4a43a2323ed54.jpg

You now in effect say 'lockdown threshold' or point for 'initiating' lockdown should match first wave hospital occupancy and totally ignore today's critical care capacity above. 

BTW this was the point health care in UK collapsed for a short time aka Italy with people not even making it to hospital and dropping like flies. Over 600 health care workers died in the first wave.

You are a very very dangerous cunt. 

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:
4 hours ago, Ncik said:

Do you seriously not believe that speeding increases the chances and risks associated with driving!? Seriously?! You're an idiot.

That's not what I said of course speeding increases the risk of an ACCIDENT or COLLISION.  But it isnt the speed that kills.

"But it isnt the speed that kills."

Weasel words and an insane dangerous cunt  

images - 2020-11-20T134946.224.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I see where it has been estimated that 185,000 extra excess deaths will occur in the UK over the next 4 years because of the first lockdown. 

"I see where it has been estimated that 185,000 extra excess deaths will occur in the UK over the next 4 years  because of the first lockdown."

- Uncited as usual and as usual avoids context.

- Ignores official deaths in 1st wave measured by positive test undercounted excess deaths by 40% and has undercounted 30% total to-date.

- Excess mortality does not tell why people died, however the figures are rising SLOWER than deaths which doctors directly attribute to Covid-19. And they are happening in the areas with high Covid-19 caseloads.

Charts below are from ONS data released on Tuesday. Estimate of 75,000 to bring up to date and of these deaths, 70,528 have already happened and ONS registered. This compares to the wholly fictious government number of 52,147.

Second wave is not like the first. It is much more mild and now better statistical information. There is almost a ONE FOR ONE relationship between the daily number and excess deaths now.

The cause is Covid-19. To argue otherwise requires quite contrary and proper evidence.

You are a lying, lying dangerous cunt.

EnBsph9XUAEzzMV.jpeg

EnBtP9nXMAAXCre.png

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BUMP

Now DAY 5 and waiting.

On 11/18/2020 at 1:17 PM, jack_sparrow said:
On 11/18/2020 at 1:06 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

I said pre-Covid influenza pandemic plans had a "higher R0 and IFR than Covid-19."

I really hope no one calls me out on this lie.

It is now DAY 3 waiting.

Still waiting.

On 11/15/2020 at 4:53 PM, jack_sparrow said:

To support your original claim is very simple.

POST an 'extract' from ONE 'National Influenza Pandemic Plan' from YOUR WHO LIST of 50+ countries titled; "Publicly available plans prepared after 2009" which indicates existence of a pre-Covid plan having a "higher R0 and IFR than Covid-19."

I bet you CAN'T and DON'T. 

  3f2bb696-5866-4e87-8f2a-595b0389ae79.gif.46207a370d3811cee4b4ea7b439fee79.gif

 

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It is over and out;

In July, Chief Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said that Sweden’s approach had been as effective as a lockdown, and that allowing a slow spread of disease likely meant immunity in Sweden would be higher than elsewhere. 

Sweden should therefore ride out a second wave better than nearby Finland and Norway, which dodged the first wave, he argued.

With such immunity now elusive, and Finland in particular seeing only a very limited rise in cases now, that argument has faded. 

https://www.politico.eu/article/discontent-rises-in-sweden-as-coronavirus-cases-spike/

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^^^^^^^^^

Yet only one week ago the two bullshitters were bullshitting as hard as they could bullshit about Sweden and the UK.

On 11/13/2020 at 6:17 AM, Kate short for Bob said:
On 11/12/2020 at 7:36 PM, BlatantEcho said:

Weekly update of daily deaths in Sweden. Average 6 per day.

Down 94% from April.

Screen Shot 2020-11-12 at 9.34.37 AM.png

Although the end tail of the graph is slightly out of date the trend is that the rate may have plateaued. ..........

...Similar trends are being seen in the UK.  The number of people in intensive ventilator care is one third of the peak in April - 1,000 vs 3,000.......



20 November GOV.UK- Daily numbers of COVID-19 patients admitted to UK hospitals.

IMG_20201121_012124.jpg

IMG_20201121_012322.jpg

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4 hours ago, Matagi said:

Sweden registers record 7,240 new COVID-19 cases. 

Daily death toll 66 in the last 24 hours

Source

Also, Sweden prepares to re-introduce a ban on visitors in care homes, with few exceptions.

That source is a bit suspect or rather the interpretation thereof.  For a start it refers to Friday 20 November and the article was published at 2:15 am on the 21 November.

As of this time - as in the time of my post - the official statistics have not been updated.  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

Ourworld in data and Worldometers are reporting only to the 19th currently and their figures align with the official source.

The article says that the 7,240 cases is a new record and refers to the previous record of 5,990 yet the official site has the previous "record" at 6,737 on 13 November.  So the "previous record" as reported is wrong. 

The article says 66 deaths have been recorded but DOESN'T say it occured in the last 24 hours.  Again the official site doesn't indicate this.  The official latest figure is 12 which is in keeping with the trend over the last two weeks.  Now this will be undercounted because of the lag in reporting but it is unlikely to surpass the high of 33 ten days ago.  Certainly you wouldn't expect it to double.  Either way the "66 in 24 hours" is unlikely.  

I'm surprised Jacko hasn't picked up on this although I guess a superficial look always helps your narrative.

With regard to the ban of visitors to care homes a ban was first put in place on 1 April 2020.  It remained in place for 6 months and was lifted 1 October.  It was reintroduced about 11 days ago starting in Stockholm.

 

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14 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I'm surprised Jacko hasn't picked up on this although I guess a superficial look always helps your narrative.

Confess, you need it, don't you? ;)

Right, a German source said 'since Thursday'. See my post above regarding how the Swedish statistics tend to 'fill up', so that number for yesterday is probably even worse in 10 days, if confirmed

I will not engage in a fight whether to doubt Reuters or not.

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1 minute ago, Matagi said:

Right, a German source said 'since Thursday'. See my post above regarding how the Swedish statistics tend to 'fill up', so that number for yesterday is probably even worse in 10 days, if confirmed

 I will not engage in a fight whether to doubt Reuters or not.

Yes - they do "tend to fill up" but official deaths was 12 on the 19th in keeping with the trend.  Nowhere near 66.  So yes it will be "worse" but worse than 12 NOT 66.

As for Reuters the Official statistics indicate that they were wrong on at least one of the three "facts" they quoted - probably two! 

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Coming from a data science background, the latter visualization is one of the most ridiculous, misleading charts I have seen in a long time.

It mimikries a downward trend, while all it says is: things are still going up. Just not as much as before.

Says the fire chief: 'there's good news and bad news. Good news is: forest fire is almost out. Bad news: no more trees left.'

Shame on OWID, they tend to be better than that.

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19 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Yes - they do "tend to fill up" but official deaths was 12 on the 19th in keeping with the trend.  Nowhere near 66.  So yes it will be "worse" but worse than 12 NOT 66.

As for Reuters the Official statistics indicate that they were wrong on at least one of the three "facts" they quoted - probably two! 

the 'official' statistics (source please) to me seem to have a higher amplitude than the tides of Normandy. 

Look, I don't do dogfights over number x or number z, especially not mortality rates (see my post 1000 m above).

We will probably see a change in testing strategy in Sweden shortly, which will -for a time- render even positivity rates and infection numbers meaningless. In my view a bit reckless, as long as you don't have measures in place where you know things are coming down. If not, it's like driving on the Autobahn for 10 seconds. Blindfolded.

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2 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Coming from a data science background, the latter visualization is one of the most ridiculous, misleading charts I have seen in a long time.

It mimikries a downward trend, while all it says is: things are still going up. Just not as much as before.

Says the fire chief: 'there's good news and bad news. Good news is: forest fire is almost out. Bad news: no more trees left.'

Shame on OWID, they tend to be better than that.

So what is wrong with the metric where you take the previous two weeks data and cumulatively represent it in a graph?  Remember each data point represents the total for the 14 days from that day.  So surely if things were getting worse then they trend would be upwards not down!

Using your fire chief analogy - what we are seeing now is the fire chief counting the trees that aren't on fire as having already burnt!

 

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25 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

It isn't all doom and gloom for Sweden and the UK. [snip]

 

Good grief, you are so full of shit, juggling with numbers and graphs you don't even remotely understand, trying to make an argument where there is none!

Where is the flick-o-matic when you need it?

Shitposters like you are the enablers of the spread, of suffering and death.

Fucking rot in hell, arsehole!

 

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3 minutes ago, Matagi said:

the 'official' statistics (source please) to me seem to have a higher amplitude than the tides of Normandy. 

Look, I don't do dogfights over number x or number z, especially not mortality rates (see my post 1000 m above).

We will probably see a change in testing strategy in Sweden shortly, which will -for a time- render even positivity rates and infection numbers meaningless. In my view a bit reckless, as long as you don't have measures in place where you know things are coming down. If not, it's like driving on the Autobahn for 10 seconds. Blindfolded.

I gave you the source of the official statistics.  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

 

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7 minutes ago, Grog said:

 

Good grief, you are so full of shit, juggling with numbers and graphs you don't even remotely understand, trying to make an argument where there is none!

Where is the flick-o-matic when you need it?

Shitposters like you are the enablers of the spread, of suffering and death.

Fucking rot in hell, arsehole!

 

I'm not juggling graphs.  Where is the graph for the number of people dying from Tuberculosis?  That's been averaging around 1.5 million a year!  

How does reporting the facts enable the spread of suffering and death?  

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These are not the official statistics, these are the figures from Johns Hopkins U. , they collect their data independently, to my knowledge (which, btw. states 96 deaths for the 18th of Nov, which ... ah nevermind).

Re the last visualization: If you have an increase of 100% in week 1, and an increase of 50% in week 2: than that is what neurosurgeons and rocket scientists call: 'an increase'.

As in 'nothing going down there'.

 

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What is happening now is that the media and the average reader is seeing the increase in the number of Covid-19 cases from the same perspective as the early peak.  If you want to draw a really dumb conclusion you could argue that the more we test the lower the fatality rate!

For example if you applied the same Case Fatality rate as the first peak to the current one you would see at least 10 times the number of fatalities in Sweden.

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1 minute ago, Matagi said:

These are not the official statistics, these are the figures from Johns Hopkins U. , they collect their data independently, to my knowledge (which, btw. states 96 deaths for the 18th of Nov, which ... ah nevermind).

Re the last visualization: If you have an increase of 100% in week 1, and an increase of 50% in week 2: than that is what neurosurgeons and rocket scientists call: 'an increase'.

As in 'nothing going down there'.

 

Click on Worldometers and Ourworld in data and see where it takes you.  But go to the Swedish Public Health Agency https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/smittskydd-beredskap/utbrott/aktuella-utbrott/covid-19/statistik-och-analyser/bekraftade-fall-i-sverige/

 

image.png.15188903281f4718ddd52d72b755eeb1.png

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11 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Re the last visualization: If you have an increase of 100% in week 1, and an increase of 50% in week 2: than that is what neurosurgeons and rocket scientists call: 'an increase'.

 

So week 2 is better than week 1 as the CURVE IS FLATTENING!

If you have 10,000 cases in 14 days then 5,000 cases in the next 14 days that's a 50% DROP in case numbers from where it could have been if the first 14 days rate had continued i.e. things are getting BETTER!!!!  Isn't that great?  Or do we take the doom and gloom approach suck the lemon and say "oooohhhh that's still 5,000 cases"? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So week 2 is better than week 1 as the CURVE IS FLATTENING!

If you have 10,000 cases in 14 days then 5,000 cases in the next 14 days that's a 50% DROP (a negative increase) in case numbers i.e. things are getting BETTER!!!!  Isn't that great?  Or do we take the doom and gloom approach suck the lemon and say "oooohhhh that's still 5,000 cases"?  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Inflattening.

No wait.

Unclimbing.

Hmmm. 

 

Is that a trick question?

Ok I'll make it simpler for you.  Which way do you want to see the case rate go?  How will you measure that?

I guess for some though the answer will be they want to see it go up after all that would help underpin their narrative that Sweden got it wrong.  

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1 minute ago, mathystuff said:

Sweden got it wrong. Admitted doing so and now is doing what every other EU country is doing.

As to your question: yes

Like what?  Universal lockdowns?  Nope other than for rest homes but they did that for 6 months April - September.  Reduced event gathering limits from from 50 to 8.  Not much else!

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Bullshit.

Fuck you.

TB is a whole different ball game, not even remotely comparable to Covid-19. You have nothing but smoke and mirrors for whatever twisted, perverted reason you want to talk this panemic down.

You and your posts are reported and you are on ignore.

Fuck you, again.

I have buried too many people and have seen too many friends and family return as essentially crippled vegetables to have any nerve to even engage in a discussion on your bullshit.

Fuck off, roll over and die. You and your drivel will not be missed.

 

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Since when is correcting an article or posting the true data a case of minimising or talking down the pandemic?

Everyone is quick to condemn Sweden even though they haven't performed as badly as many other countries.  This flood of daily data, comparative score cards and hysterical media reporting isn't achieving a positive outcome.  For example the latest headline from news.com.au - "One person is dying from Covid-19 every 8 seconds!"  That isn't excess deaths just someone taking the latest daily total from Worldometer or Ourwordindata and dividing 11,000 by 24 then 60 and then 60 again and multiplying back out to a whole number.

No mention that 2 people die a second in a "normal" year - that's every second of every day - which is a pretty high and flat peak!  But regardless what is the point of the headline other than to sensationalise a serious pandemic with a nonsensical statistic.  The same article then goes on to savage various Governments.

Back to the subject of this topic - Sweden.  Have they failed by international standards?  Who is the Swedish "they"?  Their Government, who we assume to have omniscient power, or their people? 

Now those that say they "failed" offer as the only alternative strategy to correct that "failure" is total lockdown.  How long for?  2 weeks?  4-6 weeks as in the UK?  Isn't it simpler to inform people that if you have these issues and are over a certain age then you are at risk therefore you need to be more careful than anyone else.  To protect yourself do the following avoid social contact, wash your hands regularly and wear a mask.  Those precautions apply to everyone.  BTW a total lockdown is impossible - people still have to go out and gather food.

What about the 1.5 million confirmed cases in the UK (could be 10 to 20 times that in actual cases) - why should they have to go into lockdown?  They've had it and recovered and can't spread it anymore.  Locking those individuals down puts them at unnecessary risk from other illnesses both mental and physical. 

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5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Hospital Bed Occupancy England - data source NHS daily report.

The peak Covid-19 bed occupancy during the first peak was 18,970 occuring on 12 April.  As of 20 November the current occupancy is 14,236.

Mechanical Ventilator Beds (ICU) peaked 2,881 on 12 April.  As of 20 November 1,241.

That is England you QUOTED UK. 

Lying dangerous cunt. 

8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

On 11/13/2020 at 6:17 AM, Kate short for Bob said:
On 11/12/2020 at 7:36 PM, BlatantEcho said:

Weekly update of daily deaths in Sweden. Average 6 per day.

Down 94% from April.

Screen Shot 2020-11-12 at 9.34.37 AM.png

Although the end tail of the graph is slightly out of date the trend is that the rate may have plateaued. ..........

...Similar trends are being seen in the UK.  The number of people in intensive ventilator care is one third of the peak in April - 1,000 vs 3,000.......



20 November GOV.UK- Daily numbers of COVID-19 patients admitted to UK hospitals.

IMG_20201121_012124.jpg

 IMG_20201121_012322.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:
4 hours ago, Grog said:

Good grief, you are so full of shit, juggling with numbers and graphs....

I'm not juggling graphs.

"...juggling with numbers and graphs"

"I'm not juggling graphs.."

So only juggling numbers.

You have now gone beyond those two for juggling.  

You are now juggling countries and states and making a state appear as it it is a country. 

Lying dangerous cunt. 

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You are now juggling countries and states and making a state appear as it it is a country. 

 

Can you be consistent.  When I quote the UK you obfuscate by separating out the other countries in the UK.  Now when I quote the figures from ENGLAND you go the other way!

Those figures were from the 20 November download available here https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

The difference of 200 is attributable to the other UK countries.  However these figures for comparison purposes are for ENGLAND.

The peak Covid-19 bed occupancy during the first peak was 18,970 occuring on 12 April.  As of 20 November the current occupancy is 14,236.

 Mechanical Ventilator Beds (ICU) peaked 2,881 on 12 April.  As of 20 November 1,241.

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

They are at least onto Sweden's under counting now. 

IMG_20201119_122346.jpg

Which has been well discussed and generally accepted as a 10 day lag (you were a part of that discussion).  The figures for the 19th were 6 and for the 20th 12.  Even allowing for reporting lag it is unlikely to be 66 for either day!

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24 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:
35 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You are now juggling countries and states and making a state appear as it it is a country.....

Can you be consistent.  When I quote the UK you obfuscate by separating out the other countries in the UK.  Now when I quote the figures from ENGLAND you go the other way!

"Can you be consistent.  When I quote the UK you obfuscate by separating out the other countries in the UK..."  

Seperating UK data into Unions is not obfuscation, or making something obscure, unclear, or unintelligible. It is a FACT caused by devolution of health care in the UK and how it is REPORTED.

A fact you are seeking to exploit to obscure do to mislead on UK stats.

You FIRST quoted UK I followed with UK data. YOU THEN quoted England ONLY data for the purposes of misleading.

The only thing consistent is your lying.

Then this. 

24 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Those figures were from the 20 November download available here https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

The difference of 200 is attributable to the other UK countries.  However these figures for comparison purposes are for ENGLAND.

Those are England stats, I didn't challenge the stats, just the location. 

BTW MY LINK was ALL of UK stats and ALSO stats for England, Wales, Scotland and Wales.

Hardly fucking "obfuscation" cunt.

9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

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Can you make your mind up Jacko.  No I didn't do it to be deliberately misleading but to provide a comparison using data that I had direct access to the source of.

Using the figures for UK patients on ventilation.  Your figure above is 1,430 on 19 November for the UK.  The peak on 12 April was 3,301.  A difference of 1,871.

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24 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Which has been well discussed and generally accepted as a 10 day lag (you were a part of that discussion). 

Your point is what??

Yes and I even posted a reply to that post of Mat's which you ignored then. 

The same post by Mat he refers to here today which you disagree with.

5 hours ago, Matagi said:

See my post above regarding how the Swedish statistics tend to 'fill up', so that number for yesterday is probably even worse in 10 days, if confirmed..

5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Yes - they do "tend to fill up" but official deaths was 12 on the 19th in keeping with the trend.  Nowhere near 66.  So yes it will be "worse" but worse than 12 NOT 66.

 

Grog is right.

Trying to make an argument when there is none.

5 hours ago, Grog said:

Good grief, you are so full of shit, juggling with numbers and graphs you don't even remotely understand, trying to make an argument where there is none!

Where is the flick-o-matic when you need it?

I'm feeling a flick coming soon. :lol:

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9 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The same post by Mat he refers to here today which you disagree with.

6 hours ago, Matagi said:

See twist it again to suit whatever YOUR agenda is.  I AGREED there is a lag and that the official figure will increase.   What I disagreed with is that there were "66 deaths officially recorded in the last 24 hours" with the inference being that that was a single day's death toll.  The reality is that 66 was probably spread over the previous 10 days NOT one single day!

Do you agree that that is the case?  I sure as hell can't find it confirmed in any official figures.

Continue with the anti-Sweden narrative if you wish but at least use the right data to do it!

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35 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Can you make your mind up JackoNo I didn't do it to be deliberately misleading but to provide a comparison using data that I had direct access to the source of.

"Can you make your mind up Jacko . No I didn't do it to be deliberately misleading but to provide a comparison using data that I had direct access to the source of."

I have made my mind up. You are a liar on all counts.

The UK incl unions NOT just ENG data source was cited upthread on Monday and in a REPLY to YOU (you wanting to talk UK not Italy) incl the SAME tabulation and chart pic but yesterday updated.

You are well aware of that ALL UK source in Monday. Yet now you only know of England only.

Reference made to your week old UK  numbers yesterday where you applied Eng numbers to UK. 

So to continue you post England only data yesterday in REPLY.

I corrected you yesterday citing SAME source as Monday.

Here you are today still protesting. 

You went out of your way to use a ENG only data source to mislead.

You have got caught out not once, but TWICE for same data. You are lying to protect the initial lie of over a week ago.

You are a lying fucking cunt. 

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

So to continue you post England only data yesterday.

 You went out of your way to use a ENG only data source to mislead.

 

Whatever Jacko.  It wasn't my intention to mislead hence clearly quoting what country the numbers were for and their source.  You could equally be accused of "misleading" by only providing one half of the comparative figures e.g. MV cases.  For the benefit of doubt I've provided both sets - the UK AND England separately.  Both show the same outcome.  Even though case numbers have increased by a substantial magnitude the totals are still less than the peak on 12 April.

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