Jump to content

The Swedish Experiment


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

This is how stupid you sound: I've never had a car crash, so we should get rid of safety regulations and traffic laws.

Im hazarding a guess that you have never had to walk into the waiting room and tell a husband, son daughter father that their wife mother daughter has passed. Because today in the USA 512 doctors or n

Everyone in this thread is probably in a nursing home. They sound like Joe Biden trying to form a cognitive sentence.    "Uh, but, cases only, g.g.g.g.go down with lock-down." 'If you don't w

Posted Images

4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Quite frankly I wouldn't give Councillor Heseltine the time of day.  I guess idiots reach out to idiots.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

So you call his consituents and local readers of Yorkshire media idiots. 

1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Nope but I certainly respect the comments of the Judge that sentenced him. 

 

"Nope but I certainly respect the comments of the Judge that sentenced him."

You forgot to mention that was 20 years ago, the sentence was community service and he has been a councilor in that community for 20 straight years and many elections since. 

- You start a subject and then found wanting AS USUAL. 

- His character is not in question, yours is.

- The post content you IGNORE AS USUAL.   

- All you have is strawman replies.

On 11/26/2020 at 4:09 AM, Kate short for Bob said:

Jacko - you are the expert in reading - read this - the new Tier rules for the UK - note the change to the curfew. 

13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The bullshitter has raised the subject of curfews. His words; "The reality is it doesn't make a difference."

This 3 Tier strategy DOES NOT include "ring fencing". 

So we have in Nth England this REAL, NOT HYPOTHETICAL situation.

Tier 2 Skipton says 'we will shoot you on sight' to West Yorkshire people tempted by night out

So a North Yorkshire councilor in a Stage 2 lockdown area (pubs/restaurants open but 10.00pm last orders) speaking of those in neighbouring West Yorkshire in lockdown Stage 3 (with pubs/restaurants closed 24/7), if they dare think of travelling to his constituency and town of Skipton for a night out.  

 

....and of course your Covid Séance Party where you are gagged.

history-of-seances-head-down.jpg.eb20801340f45d1d4a917b6f355b0acd.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

- The post content you IGNORE AS USUAL.   

- All you have is strawman replies.

1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Sorry Jacko can't pull your crap to shreds anymore..

 

"Sorry Jacko can't pull your crap to shreds anymore.."

Your STRAWMAN replies go back since you joined SA in Sept, so that revelation is hardly fresh news son.

BTW how can you pull "crap to shreds ANYMORE" when you ALWAYS IGNORE that crap that pulls your crap to shreds??

You have things back the front.

Maybe that is your problem.

Put your head in a vice and rotate your body 180 degrees and report back.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^^^^^^^^^^

"The post content you IGNORE AS USUAL."

"BTW how can you pull "crap to shreds ANYMORE " when you ALWAYS IGNORE that crap that pulls your crap to shreds ??"

 So from 10 November an instructive post about the bullshitters  MO. 

 "I guarantee you now don't revisit the balance of your post shown up to be bullshit. You never do, choosing to cherry pick and discard the embarassing."

That 'Guarantee' was safe as houses.

On 11/10/2020 at 10:54 PM, jack_sparrow said:

But still MORE bullshit

You really should have taken note of the last bit I wrote.

"This list EXCLUDES regional lockdown directives implemented first in the north weeks ago."

So to join Kronober and Södermanlandladt last week??

You are MISSING 2 earlier lockdowns. 

Uppsala north of Stockholm which went into lockdown three weeks ago. This was the first time Sweden started using this new type of guidance. 

That was followed by the southern region of Skåne, which includes the city of Malmö.

You really are fucking unbelievable.

With that out of the way I guarantee you don't revisit the balance of your post shown up to be bullshit. You never do, choosing to cherry pick and discard the embarassing. 

That is lying by 'omission'.

Like Yorkshire canvasing the actual people regulations impact is far more useful than dealing with someone hiding out in his Covid free part of the world and promoting dangerous bullshit. 

Here Uppsala the first Sweden region where their voluntary lockdown was implemented on 20 October three weeks before the above post. 

'I feel safer': How Uppsala residents are responding to Sweden's first local coronavirus measures

So let's check HOW these staged and voluntary regional lockdowns in Sweden OVERLAID with some rule based restrictions such as 10.00pm Bar/Restaurant curfews have fared.

As of 17 November 20 of Swedens 21 Regions are now under voluntary lockdown

See chart below for timing. 

So lockdowns DON'T control the virus the bullshitter says. 

The ONLY question for Sweden now is, compared to their Nordic Neighbours, were they TOO SLOW to act???? 

The people of heavily populated Uppsala and Skane, being the first two regions to feel the voluntary lockdowns, are probably very greatfull of Sweden's twenty one regions to be first out of the blocks.

So too Denmark just across the bridge from Skane. 

IMG_20201128_172720.jpg

IMG_20201127_163703.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The ONLY question for Sweden now is, compared to their Nordic Neighbours, were they TOO SLOW to act???? 

5 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

https://news.yahoo.com/swedish-government-sidelines-epidemiologist-steered-102636440.html

Dr. Tegnell is figuring out how to scratch his head without being seen.

 

"The ONLY question for Sweden now is, compared  to their Nordic Neighbours, were they TOO SLOW to act????"

Seems that question has been answered. 

Tegnell now sidelined it seems.

"There's certainly a split, and I'm pretty sure that many in the government have rather lost faith in the Public Health Agency," 

"By some counts, we've now got exactly the same level of spread of the virus that we had in the spring, and that's about as clear a refutation of Tegnell's strategy as you could wish for."

Seems the elected no longer willing to carry the political fallout imposed by the unelected.

Tegnel keeping banging on about how Norway, Finland and Denmark would face a TOUGHER task over the winter with LOWER levels of immunity wasn't too fucking smart. 

Denmark were sick of Tegnell too. As soon as Skane introduced voluntary lockdowns at end of October, across the Øresund Strait, Denmark's rate in new cases DROPPED. Sweden's rate kept rising as they chased it TOO LATE region by region as shown in chart on post above.

Only the Øresund Bridge seperates the large cities of Malmo and Copenhagen.

The cool long running TV series of the same name, two detectives, one case, one killer, the bridge joined them together was the theme. 

Season 2 from 6 years ago, the new case involved BACTERA......very spooky. 

 

Can't wait to hear what the bullshitters now have to say.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, toad said:

Imagine living in a country where the leaders dont give a fuck about you or your family

Sweden is the opposite of others where here it is public servants running the show. Their Constitution grants the Public Health Agency and Convid response led by Tegnell, superior power. 

That democratic model has just got shot to pieces for a second time and the Swedish elected ones have had enough. 

Conversely the populace in places like the UK and US (ironicaly up until mid March were following Sweden's virus immunity response, some say still are), where it is their politicians who have failed, would probably die to have Sweden's democratic model now.  

This pandemic is screwing with the world order.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sweden is the opposite of others where here it is public servants running the show. Their Constitution grants the Public Health Agency and Convid response led by Tegnell, superior power. 

That democratic model has just got shot to pieces for a second time and the Swedish elected ones have had enough. 

Conversely the populace in places like the UK and US (ironicaly up until mid March were following Sweden's virus immunity response, some say still are), where it is their politicians who have failed, would probably die to have Sweden's democratic model now.  

This pandemic is screwing with the world order.

That would have to take the prize for the biggest load of shyte you have ever posted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

How unexpected...the best the dangerous-bullshitter can come up with

Well I can't post evidence based opinion contrary to yours because I'll be banned.

But to those who have read the last two articles posted about Sweden I suggest you dig behind the headlines.  For example check out what the "expert" is actually an expert in.

Then with the latest article do some fact checking.  Also check out who was quoted and see if you can find out who the "unnamed civil servant" is.

Jacko is there any Government in the world that you are NOT an expert on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^^^^^^

"For example check out what the "expert" is actually an expert in. Then with the latest article do some fact checking."

It is a FACT that political commentary in Sweden's media have been reporting for a while about the growing friction between Tegnell and the Government. It is FACT it went up a notch yesterday.

It is FACT that Tegnell holds a Constitutional upper hand. 

"Well I can't post evidence based opinion contrary to yours because I'll be banned."

You said you were still waiting for the FACTS???

On 11/27/2020 at 5:03 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

I'm gagged.  I'll will respond when I'm allowed or rather when the facts become more apparent to those that doubt. 

Is your Covid Séance Party not cutting the mustard??

On 11/27/2020 at 7:37 PM, jack_sparrow said:

"I'm gagged. I'll will respond when I'm allowed or rather when the facts become more apparent to those that doubt."

So now you are gagged and the facts have yet to appear.

So now your defence is we are having a Covid Séance Party.

Please keep the gag on and dial 999.

history-of-seances-head-down.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

It is a FACT that political commentary in Sweden's media have been reporting for a while about the growing friction between Tegnell and the Government. It is FACT it went up a notch yesterday.

1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So let's analyse and manage the pandemic based on "political commentary".  Oh but we'll also be selective in what choose to listen to.

To hell with the facts.  

 

"So let's analyse and manage the pandemic based on "political commentary".... 

...."To hell with the facts."  

KEEP bullshitting bullshitter.  

NO ONE here is analysing that political commentary, other than quoting it. 

- That "analysis" by "political commentators" incorporates NO "analysis" of the pandemic, other than them quoting FACTUAL numbers for outcomes provided by the Sweden's Public Health Agency. 

That "analysis" is NORMALLY the domain of 'health professionals'.

- Scientists and health professionals HAVEN'T "analysed" the "growing friction between Tegnell and the Government."

That "analysis" is NORMALLY the domain of 'political commentators'.

More to the point and fuck your straw.

Where are your missing and mystery 'authoritative' CITES to support what you are 'promoting'?

Has your dog eaten these missing and mystery 'authoritative' FACTS of yours?

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, toad said:

Would it be fair to say that if everyone isolated, washed hands, masked up for a few weeks covid is over- no viable host, no covid?

No as that is little more than "mitigation"

However with "suppression" can achieve "contained" status as defined by WHO when no vaccine exists, but NOT "eliminated" without large vaccine take up and even then that takes many many years.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems Sweden now gets into the Top 20 (out of 53) but bottom of the Nordic 4 according to the following hit parade. UK in the bottom half at #28.

Nov 23 - The Covid Resilience Ranking - "The Best and Worst Places to Be in the Coronavirus Era".

"The Covid Resilience Ranking scores economies of more than $200 billion on 10 key metrics: from growth in virus cases to the overall mortality rate, testing capabilities and the vaccine supply agreements places have forged**. The capacity of the local health-care system, the impact of virus-related restrictions like lockdowns on the economy, and citizens’ freedom of movement is also taken into account."

** Sweden's and Nordic 4 Vaccine supply via EU/EEA.

Methodology HERE

IMG_20201129_120624.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:
1 hour ago, toad said:

Would it be fair to say that if everyone isolated, washed hands, masked up for a few weeks covid is over- no viable host, no covid?

No as that is little more than "mitigation"

However with "suppression" can achieve "contained" status as defined by WHO when no vaccine exists, but NOT "eliminated" without large vaccine take up and even then that takes many many years.

1 hour ago, toad said:

thanks, lets trust that we get enough uptake on the vaccinations.

 

Correction.

Actually it is "eradication" then "elimination." The latter being no or small number of cases for at least a year possible with out vaccine, but direct and indirect cost of the level "suppression" necessary maybe too high for some places. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/29/2020 at 6:12 AM, jack_sparrow said:

"The ONLY question for Sweden now is, compared  to their Nordic Neighbours, were they TOO SLOW to act????"

Seems that question has been answered. 

Tegnell now sidelined it seems.

"There's certainly a split, and I'm pretty sure that many in the government have rather lost faith in the Public Health Agency," 

"By some counts, we've now got exactly the same level of spread of the virus that we had in the spring, and that's about as clear a refutation of Tegnell's strategy as you could wish for."

Seems the elected no longer willing to carry the political fallout imposed by the unelected.

On 11/29/2020 at 8:23 AM, jack_sparrow said:

It is a FACT that political commentary in Sweden's media have been reporting for a while about the growing friction between Tegnell and the Government. It is FACT it went up a notch yesterday.

It is FACT that Tegnell holds a Constitutional upper hand. 

 

"The ONLY question for Sweden now is, compared  to their Nordic Neighbours, were they TOO SLOW to act????"

"Seems the elected no longer willing to carry the political fallout imposed by the unelected."

Even Swedish politicians can read 'killing charts' that helped kill a political career. 

Ironically charts now showing a peak AFTER polling day and not BEFORE. 

EoB9Z9aUcAIE0W-.jpeg

 

Sweden's Voluntary Lockdowns by Region - 20 of 21 Regions

IMG_20201128_172720.thumb.jpg.b23ab50a6c9c9d8cf68a61eee4faf372.jpgIMG_20201127_163703.jpg.a12ee0ff705fb6abc3c8e44b13484812.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Performance on BOTH health AND economic outcomes.

In the 'old world' the two subjects are kept apart.

The 'old world' is where the worst performers lie. (Italy with good health system unlucky as it was the wests guinea pig.)

The 'new worlds' best performers are in the Asia Pacific.

If there are further Covid response changes in Sweden it will cross over into the 'new world' and join up with their Nordic neighbours who were better at navigating in the 'new world'.

This to Sept so only 1st Wave.

IMG_20201130_145049.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sweden appears to be determined to screw this up as much as the US. Other European countries that relaxed too much this summer paid the cost, but lockdowns are bringing thing back under control for them. Even the US might be able to stabilize things a bit through enhanced efforts by individual states in the complete absence of a federal response.

 

Screen Shot 2020-12-03 at 10.16.24 AM.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/4/2020 at 2:42 AM, Matagi said:

They are going back to remote learning for the older classes.

https://www.thelocal.se/20201203/swedens-schools-for-over-16s-shift-back-to-remote-learning

 

Apart from the significance of that large shift in their education response, also is the absence now of Tegnell on the podium for public announcements.

This the second time (the 1st on 26 Nov) Prime Minister Löfven has now appeared on implemention of NPI's and the Public Health Agency being represented by the director-general Carlson, not Tegnell the state epidemiologist.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/4/2020 at 3:42 AM, Matagi said:

They are going back to remote learning for the older classes.

https://www.thelocal.se/20201203/swedens-schools-for-over-16s-shift-back-to-remote-learning

 

I should mention that on "the local" you are only going to find positive "Journalism" about Sweden.

It was originally started by a Brit expat and would cover a lot more that was going on in Sweden, good and bad. It had a very active forum with expats discussing the articles and generally what was going on in Sweden. Like SA, articles that would generate heated discussions would be posted as click bait. Certain articles would see an influx of posters with no connection to or even general interest in Sweden. Usually it was idiot Americans. The comments were viewable at the end of the articles.

Interestingly it was the English expats who were most in love with Sweden, accepting and embracing its faults. Most other nationals would get frustrated by Swedes or Swedish behaviour. 

At some point the Local either sold out some Swedish organisation to become a mouth piece for the promotion of Sweden. The pages filled with puff pieces and positive news about Sweden, generally ignoring news of what is really going on in Sweden at the ground level that would make it look bad and might make foreigners (educated from the good countries) have second thoughts about moving to the "Swedish Utopia". Now discussions by expats are buried in the forum and no comments on the lame articles.

Sweden lives in denial, Swedes live in denial and The Local lives in Denial

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:
On 12/4/2020 at 2:42 AM, Matagi said:

They are going back to remote learning for the older classes.

https://www.thelocal.se/20201203/swedens-schools-for-over-16s-shift-back-to-remote-learning

 

I should mention that on "the local" you are only going to find positive "Journalism" about Sweden.

Hoppy that maybe but I don't think anyone here has cited it's opinion pieces at all, only announcements of their NPI changes which are simply matters of fact. Just like that one cited by Mat.

That info is also obviously sitting in the Swedish language MSM and even in neighbouring Nordic countries media, but again not in English and so harder to quickly access or become aware of. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hoppy that maybe but I don't think anyone here has cited it's opinion pieces at all, only announcements of their NPI changes which are simply matters of fact. Just like that one cited by Mat.

That info is also obviously sitting in the Swedish language MSM and even in neighbouring Nordic countries media, but again not in English and so harder to quickly access or become aware of. 

My comment was a general criticism of "The Local" and to highlight to anyone who goes to the page looking for the real truth about what's going on there.

Sometimes the "real" Swedish media can be little better. With Covid the tend to only make it headlines when it's about another country doing worse than Sweden. The Swedish fucked up response tends to be a bit buried.

The Sun/Daily mail equivalent  https://www.aftonbladet.se/ It's got to be the worst layout news site ever

https://www.dn.se/https://www.dn.se/

https://www.svd.se/

 

Sometimes it was better to refer to the far right news websites to get certain news, like crime, because Swedish news refuses to identify suspects incase the public realises so much crime is done by immigrants (it would prove that their approach to immigration is fucked, by expecting immigrants to be happy living on a state pension because they have no hope of getting work)

There was also a Russian news site that had some more enlightening news about Sweden.

Unfortunately I don't remember these sites and I obviously had to filter out their BS.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Not this shit again!!! - Facepalm Picard - quickmeme

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.11.20229708v1

Conclusions All-cause mortality remained unaltered in Norway. In Sweden, the observed increase in all-cause mortality during Covid-19 was partly due to a lower than expected mortality preceding the epidemic and the observed excess mortality, was followed by a lower than expected mortality after the first Covid-19 wave. This may suggest mortality displacement.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.11.20229708v1

Conclusions All-cause mortality remained unaltered in Norway. In Sweden, the observed increase in all-cause mortality during Covid-19 was partly due to a lower than expected mortality preceding the epidemic and the observed excess mortality, was followed by a lower than expected mortality after the first Covid-19 wave. This may suggest mortality displacement.

I stopped reading when I got to the part that said "Not peer reviewed".  Call us when it is, we're always open.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Also looks like the pandemic might be over in Sweden looking at the latest numbers.

The only thing that is over in this case is my patience for your assertions from an alternate reality.  Onto ignore you go.

Yeah, that looks like "over":

image.thumb.png.0c3e460fa04ecc56b6da8c3f2cbd4847.png

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a preety poorly designed study and I think it will not make it to a respected paper without major alteration.

As a reviewer, I would (aftershort screening) criticize

- a not well discussed assumption that Norway and Sweden are per se comparable. They differ vastly in Care home beds / capita, population density and ICU beds / capita.

- a poor slicing of data. It is questionable to take a year from July to July to compare the data with this specific goals in mind. The months July 2019 to ca. January 2020 (non-Covid months) will skew the data and flatten the comparison artificially-

- there is an economical discussion, which is not an aim of this study, as set out. It should not be included unless it is introduced in the study aims.

- it also lacks visualization. This is not a must, but a well-respected method to make it easier on the reader to follow what is presented as finding.

- the formula 'may suggest' is very soft, the authors seem to see how much further studies needs to be done.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Hard to believe really that a new piece of research regarding Sweden shows no excess mortality for this year.

Sweden records highest death tally in 150 years in first half of 2020

In total, 51,405 Swedes died in the six-month period, a higher number than in any year since 1869, when 55,431 people died, partly as a result of a famine. The population of Sweden was about 4.1 million then, compared with 10.3 million now.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sweden records highest death tally in 150 years in first half of 2020

In total, 51,405 Swedes died in the six-month period, a higher number than in any year since 1869, when 55,431 people died, partly as a result of a famine. The population of Sweden was about 4.1 million then, compared with 10.3 million now.

Is that the best you can come up with Jacko?  An article from The Guardian dated August?  LOL.

Jacko face it the pandemic is over in Sweden.

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

Considering they're counting car accident victims that test positive in these numbers i dont put a lot of weight in them.

You have to decide: did they die in a car crash or did they vote for Biden?

 

Seriously: myth, debunked. Among the major sources seems to be Gov. DeSantis of Florida.

The state that raided the home of the former Covid-responsible data scientist. With guns drawn.

 

Btw: this is the thread where we curse each other in Swedish, use IKEA bats and throw meatballs at each other. 

Find the real deal here.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Ncik said:

WTF?

I has been documented that people who die in car accidents have been included in Covid death statistics (presumably because they had Covid 60 days or less before death).

I think countries tried to pull these out of the death stats, but, it definitely happened. Fairly widely reported.

  • Downvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

I has been documented that people who die in car accidents have been included in Covid death statistics (presumably because they had Covid 60 days or less before death).

I think countries tried to pull these out of the death stats, but, it definitely happened. Fairly widely reported.

Got a link?  I'd like to see the evidence of that.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sweden had 160 reported deaths today: one of highest daily numbers since outbreak began. Reported deaths this week: Tue: 133 (Weekend + Monday) Wed: 96 Thu: 58 Fri: 160 Total: 447 Sweden has more reported deaths this WEEK than Norway (382) and Finland (442) have had in total.

Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

94% of "COVID deaths" had other causes of death listed on the death certificate as well: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200901/covid-19-primary-not-only-cause-94-percent-of-deaths

You see, in the US hospitals have an incentive to list COVID as the cause of death because they get paid more by the government for each case.

Horseshit.  From the article:

The data doesn’t indicate that 94% of deaths were caused by other conditions, but rather, that 94% of people who died from COVID-19 had at least one other health condition when they died.

“Those saying ‘only 6% die from COVID-19 alone,’ or some derivation thereof, don’t understand how infectious diseases work,” Ryan McNamara, a postdoctoral fellow at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a virologist who studies HIV, wrote in a Twitter post.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mark Set said:

94% of "COVID deaths" had other causes of death listed on the death certificate as well: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200901/covid-19-primary-not-only-cause-94-percent-of-deaths

You see, in the US hospitals have an incentive to list COVID as the cause of death because they get paid more by the government for each case.

In other words,  you believe someone in their 40s who has cancer,  but still at least 10 years of life remaining in normal times,  but gets covid and dies now, has no worth.

Says a lot about you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

I has been documented that people who die in car accidents have been included in Covid death statistics (presumably because they had Covid 60 days or less before death).

I think countries tried to pull these out of the death stats, but, it definitely happened. Fairly widely reported.

So what?  That occurrence is intuitively rare. 

Don't deflect away to deal with the 0.001% when the problem is in the 99.999%

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok for today’s class everyone open up their books and refer to the section that deals with EXCESS MORTALITY. This will help us all clear up any confusion as to cause of death statistics.

Class fucking dismissed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mark Set said:

94% of "COVID deaths" had other causes of death listed on the death certificate as well: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200901/covid-19-primary-not-only-cause-94-percent-of-deaths

You see, in the US hospitals have an incentive to list COVID as the cause of death because they get paid more by the government for each case.

So what's your point? Are you living in denial?

Do you understand that the reason these people died is because their other issues reduces their chances of survival. This is why Covid is a minor issue for the young and healthy and deadly for the old and frail and those with underlying health conditions.

 Maybe you should visit a covid ward in your local hospital.

Link to post
Share on other sites
It's looking like the Swedish medical system stuck it's head in the sand over Summer and now it's getting it's butt kicked.
 
Typical Swedish
 
 
 
 

Is the second wave overloading Sweden's intensive care units?

The Local
11 December 2020
14:39 CET+01:00

Share this article

share-2-email.png share-2-twitter.png share-2-facebook.png share-2-linkedin.png
Is the second wave overloading Sweden's intensive care units?
Intensive care nurses last month at Gothenburg's Östra Sjukhuset hospital. Photo: Björn Larsson Rosvall /TT
Stockholm region on Wednesday reported that it had hit 99 percent ICU capacity, while a top doctor has warned Sweden could soon be forced to send Covid patients to Finland. How close is Sweden to reaching full capacity?

In the summer, Sweden's state epidemiologist frequently pointed out that Sweden had succeeded in one of its main strategic goals: keeping infections low enough to prevent the healthcare system being overwhelmed. Even at the peak of the first wave in mid-April, the country always had at least around 30 percent spare capacity in intensive care. 

But with temporary field hospitals dismantled over the summer and some other emergency measures no longer in place, the country has less intensive care beds available while there is a resurgence in cases. 

READ ALSO: 

How many fewer intensive care beds are there in Sweden now than there were in the spring? 

During the spring peak, Sweden more than doubled its available intensive care places after mounting an impressive operation to increase the number to 1,100. 

According to the latest figures from the National Board of Health and Welfare, Sweden on Wednesday December 9th had 673 intensive care beds equipped with a ventilators. 

How much spare intensive care capacity is there in Sweden as a whole? 

According to the latest figures from the Swedish Board of Health and Welfare, 550 of the intensive care beds equipped with a ventilator were occupied on Wednesday December 9th, of which 261 were filled with patients with Covid-19. 

This amounts to 18 percent spare capacity. 

1607693752_3bab6118976c658dae5c347751cf4
An intensive care worker in a Stockholm hospital. File photo: Staffan Löwstedt / SvD / TT

What's happening in Stockholm? 

Stockholm on Wednesday reported that its 160 care beds were 99 percent full. The region has issued a 'hemmaställan', a formal call for help to the health board, which will in turn be sent to the Swedish Armed Forces, who may be able to provide doctors and medical equipment.

Stockholm's hospitals director Björn Eriksson told Dagens Nyheter that it was primarily a lack of trained staff that was limiting the number of intensive care places.  

What about other regions? 

The health board reports that four other regions have less than ten percent spare intensive care capacity, but has not stated which regions these are.

According to Göran Karlström, a senior doctor in Värmland who is in charge of coordinating intensive care capacity between Sweden's regions, capacity has never been tighter. 

"Both last Friday and on Wednesday this week, we had an all-time low when 13 regions had less than 25 percent capacity at the same time," Karlström, who is involved with coordinating capacity between regions for the Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions, told The Local. 

How are Sweden's regions sharing patients? 

According to Karlström, the policy in Sweden is for regions to take one another's patients, rather than for staff to travel to regions with low capacity. 

"The strategy is not to move personnel but patients, and that is because personnel perform better if they are in their own comfort zones and know the routines. We think that patient safety will be better." 

He said that patient sharing had been widespread in the spring, but had stopped between June and September before starting to pick up again in October, and further increasing in November and December. 

Might patients be sent to Finland, Denmark or Norway? 

Sweden's medical newspaper Dagens Medicin on Thursday quoted Sten Rubertsson, a doctor at the health board, saying that a new plan to increase the number of available intensive care beds was likely to be announced within days, and might even involve patients being sent to be treated in Norway, Denmark and Finland. 

 

Rubertsson told The Local that he was not responsible for planning intensive care capacity, but said that it was possible that patients could be sent abroad. 

"If we reach a situation where we cannot handle this ourselves, we will definitely ask our brother and sister countries for assistance," he said. "It's really hard to know when that's going to occur, or if it's going to occur at all."

He pointed out that Uppsala Region, where he works, already sometimes sends serious burn patients to be treated in Bergen and neonatal patients to Turku in Finland, and noted that Sweden's neighbours had all offered to treat coronavirus patients earlier in the year. 

"During the peak of our problems in the spring, we got offers from our neighbours, saying that they were willing to help us if we ended up in a situation where we couldn't make sure all the patients are safe."

Johanna Sandwall, the board's operations chief, told The Local that there were currently no plans to seek help from neighbouring countries. 

"There are no such plans right now," she said. "Right now we have sufficient capacity nationally to meet our care needs." 

She pointed out that the Nordic Public Health Preparedness agreement provided a framework for Nordic countries to easily seek medical help in a crisis, but that such help had not yet been requested. 

"The National Board of Health and Welfare has not requested any help yet," she said. 

However, Karlström said that the board had this week been in contact with health authorities in Denmark, Norway and Finland to remind them of their commitments under the agreement. 

"A couple of days ago they initiated the first contacts with the other Nordic countries so that they are aware that this is still a valid agreement if the need arises," he said. 

Might Sweden call in the military? 

After Stockholm's call for help, Johanna Sandvall, crisis chief at the Swedish Board of Health and Welfare, said it might be hard to free up armed forces medical personnel, as most were reserve officers who are already working as nurses and doctors in Sweden's hospitals. 

"These are personnel who already work as nurses or doctors in a region, but if we were used the reserve officer system so that the Armed Forces just call in reserves and place them somewhere, we would just be creating a hole that the regions can't control," she said. 

 
 
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/12/2020 at 7:30 AM, The Dark Knight said:
It's looking like the Swedish medical system stuck it's head in the sand over Summer and now it's getting it's butt kicked.
 
Typical Swedish
 

How many fewer intensive care beds are there in Sweden now than there were in the spring? 
During the spring peak, Sweden more than doubled its available intensive care places after mounting an impressive operation to increase the number to 1,100. 

According to the latest figures from the National Board of Health and Welfare, Sweden on Wednesday December 9th had 673 intensive care beds equipped with a ventilators. 

 

How does Sweden's acute care capacity drop in 6 months by 40% and therefore are now are at 99% occupancy in some places????

How are they in a position of looking to export patients to other Nordic countries, the very same countries they critisised over their Covid response? 

Pretty simple answer.

Staff are quitting in dangerous numbers after being put back into 12 hour shifts again.

Sweden Health Care bullshitters about having a 1st  class health care system. By every metric they don't and it has been that way for years. 

If as a society you don't want to properly utilise NPI's/minimal lockdowns for a epidemic and are acceptive of a higher death toll strategy, that is that societies prerogative. It is not for outsiders to judge.

HOWEVER the first thing you do when undertaking such a strategy is ensure you have a robust health care system to accommodate the additional load.

Sweden didn't and just pretended they did. 

Question is will they overhaul it when this is over??

Once head in the sand, always head in the sand??

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/12/2020 at 2:39 AM, LeoV said:

Sweden had 160 reported deaths today: one of highest daily numbers since outbreak began. Reported deaths this week: Tue: 133 (Weekend + Monday) Wed: 96 Thu: 58 Fri: 160 Total: 447 Sweden has more reported deaths this WEEK than Norway (382) and Finland (442) have had in total.

Where is the source for "Sweden having reported 160 deaths"?  It certainly isn't the official website where the peak for this second phase is 55 so far and is now declining.  Also don't forget that 256 people die each day in an average year in Sweden.  Currently the total for the Jan-Dec year is about 7.5% above an average year where over 90,000 people die.  When compared to historical data this 7.5% (high estimate of excess deaths) is still within expected variances.  

Comparing Sweden to Norway and Finland just on Covid-19 deaths proves nothing but it does support a negative alarmist narrative.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/20/2020 at 8:23 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

Yes - they do "tend to fill up" but official deaths was 12 on the 19th in keeping with the trend.  Nowhere near 66.  So yes it will be "worse" but worse than 12 NOT 66.

As for Reuters the Official statistics indicate that they were wrong on at least one of the three "facts" they quoted - probably two! 

The number ended up to be 45. So I think you really don't have a way with these statistics. We should stop using them anyway, there is much clearer evidence of how overburdend the Swedish system is: The major story currently coming out of Sweden is that Stockholms hospitals are at ICU capacity, asking the government for additional help, mainly staff.

That is not to say that other countries aren't screwing up phenomenally themselves. The current German response is just as cringeworthy, in my opinion. Finland was a posterboy three weeks ago, not at the bottom of the bell curve and still doesn't seem to care much... France, well more limping than managing it, despite a very hard intervention.

Overall, when the response comes far too late, it has to be so heavy that it becomes untenable, especially if you try it for a second time. Or pre-Christmas.

Or both.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Matagi said:

The number ended up to be 45

Yes so the 66 was 50% more than actual!  So much for an accurate news report!

15 minutes ago, Matagi said:

So I think you really don't have a way with these statistics

Really?  And you are suggesting that Reuters got it right when they were out by 50%?

16 minutes ago, Matagi said:

there is much clearer evidence of how overburdend the Swedish system is: The major story currently coming out of Sweden is that Stockholms hospitals are at ICU capacity, asking the government for additional help, mainly staff.

Again Newspaper/Media reports that don't accurately reflect the actual statistics.  Suggest you go to the source of the data.  To be blunt I've found that with these sensational headlines that when you go back to the source you find that reality is different.  Just like your 66!

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Just to be sure: among the two of us, am the one you suggest does some research?

Absolutely - I stand by that statement.

The reproduction rate is trending to below 1 - currently 1.01 and dropping.  Even if the veracity of the testing is questionable and the cases numbers are overstated.
Hospitalisations have peaked as have deaths.  You will not see another surge.

What's more the data for hospitalisations and deaths attributed to Covid-19 is confounded by the normal seasonal upsurge in both measures.

As for the hospital bed and ICU occupancy as a % of available for Sweden I'd be very interested in where your research takes you to find those figures.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:
On 12/12/2020 at 7:31 AM, jack_sparrow said:

They are included in 'excess deaths" which are around one-third higher than official Covid official. 

That Jacko is an absolute bullshit statement.  

Do you buy your 'absolute bullshit' wholesale?

The CDC sell the 'truth' for free. You should try it sometime.

CDC - US Excess Deaths

"Based on NVSS data, excess deaths have occurred every week in the United States since March 2020. An estimated 299,028 more persons than expected have died since January 26, 2020; approximately two thirds of these deaths were attributed to COVID-19."

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Matagi said:

The current German response is just as cringeworthy, in my opinion.

I think the level of authority devolved to the German states and German people is beating Merkel.

She is an ex scientist. One of the best Covid leaders in Europe. The Country is well resourced inc social security backstops.

You also don't  see too many Covid leadership speaches like this.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I think the level of authority devolved to the German states and German people is beating Merkel.

She is an ex scientist. One of the best Covid leaders in Europe. The Country is well resourced inc social security backstops.

You also don't  see too many Covid leadership speaches like this.

It's too little too late. The Ministerpräsidenten (state governors in a way) didn't want harsher measures only six weeks ago. The picture she painted back than was laughed at. The MP who has now the worst situation in all of Germany back then warned against 'hysteria'. Now he can't rush to the emergency brake quick enough, imposing new measures today, not Wednesday as all the others.

Doesn't help that there is a leadership contest for the Conservative party going on as well, with the Ministerpräsidenten of Northrhine-Westfalia and Bavaria, the two largest states, as the top contenders, the Federal Health minister in the mix AND the social-democrat federal Finance minister as the opposing candidate in next year's general election.

It's the US situation, only completely backwards: the federal governments wanted stricter measures, most leaders at state level did not. Boom. 

It's the compromise that cuts off both your exit routes. You can either have it burning through but keep your economy going or you can say: well, that's worth it, let's close it. But hesitating, that's costly in both ways, and very much so. When my home state pays back the last € of the debts we took on for managing the crisis, my boys will be 60. SIXTY! Just because we couldn't get our ass moving six weeks earlier. 

Compromise, that is in my view the title of Merkel's era. It brings stability for the time being, but at what cost in the long-term? There is no principle and thus no guidance, a certain way to lose public confidence among the complete electorate.

As for her being a scientist: That is not an advantage per se. People are not molecules. We are not rational. It can be counterproductive, even. Look at Reagan and Thatcher. Both terrible in their policies, but vastly different in winning over people. Reagan's Challenger speech was one of the best ever given. Turning raw grief into a speech about hope? Wow!

Thatcher was pure power, no feelings. She was a scientist, too, in her young years. The point is: you have to know the boundary of your means. Sometimes, they apply to a situation perfectly. Sometimes: not at all. Currently, we are in a situation where it is no longer winning minds (it was, earlier), it's now winning hearts. And there is no path to victory for Merkel here, just as there wasn't for Thatcher.

 

 

PS: That would make a very intersting book, btw, a comparison of two female scientists-turned-world leaders. The one leading without compromise, the other exclusively by it. 

Back to the studio. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

She is an ex scientist. One of the best Covid leaders in Europe.

Then why does she listen to the fraud Dr Drosten?

 

16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Do you buy your 'absolute bullshit' wholesale?

The CDC sell the 'truth' for free. You should try it sometime.

CDC - US Excess Deaths

"Based on NVSS data, excess deaths have occurred every week in the United States since March 2020. An estimated 299,028 more persons than expected have died since January 26, 2020; approximately two thirds of these deaths were attributed to COVID-19."

 

The same organisation the CDC states that 94% of those deaths had comorbidities.  You implied that the deaths from Covid were around "one-third higher" than the Covid official (sic).."

On 12/12/2020 at 10:31 AM, jack_sparrow said:

They are included in 'excess deaths" which are around one-third higher than official Covid official. 

But what the paper you referenced said was that it was ESTIMATED that there were 300,000 excess deaths of which two thirds were Covid.  

Also the report (has it been peer reviewed?) does not clearly state the source or how it estimated the benchmark for the comparison however it does not a number of caveats and the following is particularly important.  Note that it is expected that deaths from Alzheimer and advanced dementia will increase over the pandemic period due to the life expectancy being less than two years.  This applies to other diseases as well. So what we are seeing is mortality displacement.

Fourth, using the average numbers of deaths from past years might underestimate the total expected numbers because of population growth or aging, or because of increasing trends in certain causes such as drug overdose mortality. Finally, estimates of excess deaths attributed to COVID-19 might underestimate the actual number directly attributable to COVID-19, because deaths from other causes might represent misclassified COVID-19–related deaths or deaths indirectly caused by the pandemic. Specifically, deaths from circulatory diseases, Alzheimer disease and dementia, and respiratory diseases have increased in 2020 relative to past years (7), and it is unclear to what extent these represent misclassified COVID-19 deaths or deaths indirectly related to the pandemic (e.g., because of disruptions in health care access or utilization).

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The same organisation the CDC states that 94% of those deaths had comorbidities.  You implied that the deaths from Covid were around "one-third higher" than the Covid official (sic).."

The one third are excess deaths without Covid positive tests or Covid in DC 1st line. Not all those died were tested or even in medical care. If those one third deaths not covid related then what was the cause...abnormal electrocutions??

4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

But what the paper you referenced said was that it was ESTIMATED that there were 300,000 excess deaths of which two thirds were Covid.  

Excess Deaths are real deaths not estimated.

The rest of what you have written is bloviated bullshit as usual.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2020 at 7:03 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

Jacko face it the pandemic is over in Sweden.

"Jacko face it the pandemic is over in Sweden."

And one week later after that shit what is happening in Europe. 

Right across Europe, declines have stalled. Positivity rates were falling in Italy, France and Austria; not any more.

They were falling fast in Belgium & the Netherlands, but are now barely falling at all.

Rates rising fast in the UK particularly London demonstrating only tough restrictions suppress transmission. Since restrictions eased there, all declines have either flattened or reversed.

EpOd1_1W4AUzbBF.jpeg

Like clockwork, this resurgence is feeding through from cases into more serious health care metrics to be concerned about.

For instance hospital occupancy rising again in UK and Sweden as a whole, and stopped falling in Netherlands.

Hospitals had emptied before autumn wave, but far from empty now. Christmas resurgence has the virus already half a lap ahead compared to autumn.

Yeah it's over...won't even need a vaccine. 

EpOd4d4W4AgzA4h.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites