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The Swedish Experiment


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You guys are a funny lot.   I'm flying around the US at the moment, enjoying the country.  You are all freaking out online about something that history will regard as 'the worlds biggest overreactio

Everyone in this thread is probably in a nursing home. They sound like Joe Biden trying to form a cognitive sentence.    "Uh, but, cases only, g.g.g.g.go down with lock-down." 'If you don't w

First of all:  how is your trip to Spain going? Now. Any single person who doesn’t die from this is excellent news. And anyone who doesn’t contract the virus is also good news. For starters

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4 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

Only open if you take notice of someone with no content bursting onto this thread looking for more toadies to back their bullshit as their supply of toadies is dwindling.

This one the OP of this thread with never a complaint here in over a year but now gone toade (spelling by snags)

 

 

I love it when you quote yourself. It’s so cute. It’s a good thing you live in a basement given you are so scared. 

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19 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

Then there are those that don't don't provide any Covid content and go there for other reasons, one in particular along with a handful of 'toadies' comes to mind. In fact I now use a  new name exclusively used on Covid threads to reduce the trolling a bit. 

Completely batshit crazy. How is the reduced trolling bit going for you Jack? 

Did you buy a second screen to run two sock puppets?

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  • 2 weeks later...
9 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

No research from anywhere other than the USA?  Where do the papers mention border closures?

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9 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

2. Tegnell said when asked if his response risks lives:

“There has been an increase, but it is not traumatic so far.”

WRONG and still keeps to that line today.

Today it is like the Nordic 5 does't exist PLUS Sweden needed their spare health care capacity having far less cases/deaths. Excess deaths the difference even more stark. Luck that Sweden and many countries have enjoyed is also forgotten today. It could be far worse. 

Using countries that have completely stuffed it as a benchmark is not a benchmark, particularly if those that have done better are ignored. 

 

So you are now dropping Excess Deaths as the "Gold Standard" metric?

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10 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

5. Tegnell says: “Each country has to reach herd immunity in one way or another, and we are going to reach it in a different way.”

It didn't workout that way with spread slower than expected with lower IFR which saved Swedens arse. 

 

Jacko this takes the cake!!  So Sweden was "SAVED by a lower IFR"!!!!  For a start the IFR isn't a measure of the rate of transmission.  It is a measure of the the number of fatalities (F) per (R) number of infections (I).

After literally thousands upon thousands of pontificating posts over the last 18 months we all would have thought that you would understand that by now.

The Rwas initially over estimated.  It was assumed that the rate of infection in the population was greater than it actually was i.e. the virus was more infectious than it has actually proven to be.  That knowledge wouldn't have changed the pandemic management plan except if herd immunity was in fact the primary goal which in Sweden it wasn't.

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11 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

Using countries that have completely stuffed it as a benchmark is not a benchmark, particularly if those that have done better are ignored. 

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Professor Wacko Jacko (SA identities @jack_sparrow AND @Plan Covid Normal) of the University of Hermitville, Big Red Rock, Southern Ocean did you apply your extensive epidemiological expertise to determining a multi-variate analysis of why the countries above might have different outcomes?  Or are you just looking for a correlation to support you cause?

For example according to the Ourworldindata stringency data there was no difference in NPI measures between the Nordic countries you have selected.

Average Stringency Index:
Denmark 57
Finland    43
Norway   51
Sweden  55

covid-stringency-index (5).png

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12 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

Jacko only clipped a small piece of what Tegnell said.  I guess only quoting US data would suggest that Jacko had trouble finding any European data as well as Tegnell.

What evidence was this approach based on?

It is difficult to talk about the scientific basis of a strategy with these types of disease, because we do not know much about it and we are learning as we are doing, day by day. Closedown, lockdown, closing borders — nothing has a historical scientific basis, in my view. We have looked at a number of European Union countries to see whether they have published any analysis of the effects of these measures before they were started and we saw almost none.

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On 2/26/2021 at 9:13 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

You are a bit thick really Jacko.  Haven't you read the critique of how the stringency measure is calculated?  It is actually a load of bollocks.  But that doesn't stop you pushing pseudo science.

Ksfb, 26 February.

This Katiequote is brought to you by: 

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13 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Ksfb, 26 February.

This Katiequote is brought to you by: 

image.thumb.png.5286c49af20be0ab5d16bc392e5b8661.png

I didn't say I agreed with it in my most recent reference to it.  However it does highlight that there isn't an effective measure.  You and Jacko do tend to cherry picking.

You only have to look at the graph for India to see that the stringency measure is a load of subjective bollocks.

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20 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Sure...

Once caught, you retreat faster than the French Fifth Army.

And if you think there are any cherries left in what you 'drop'... think again.

I never retreat from a troll.  Have the Germans won a war yet?

I notice you haven't made a comment on the substance of the post.  But I realise that is probably a struggle for you.

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15 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I notice you haven't made a comment on the substance of the post. 

Ok, here it comes, you ready?

Tl;dr: There was none.

To make a point you used data to that you had rejected not that long ago. The use of your evidence for your argument is incoherent and thus your argument does not stand.

If that is trolling for you, you need a much thicker skin.

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13 hours ago, Matagi said:

To make a point you used data to that you had rejected not that long ago. The use of your evidence for your argument is incoherent and thus your argument does not stand.

I still reject the Stringency Index as a measure for the reasons I posted some time ago.  However when it doesn't support YOUR argument anymore you scurry around confused.

I take it you now agree with me that the Stringency Index is a crock of shit.

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You really are struggling with Swedens success aren't you @Plan Covid Normal aka @jack_sparrow.

Interesting that the best you can come up with is a cumulative case number graph.  Typical one factor analysis from Jacko.

Would you like to plot hospitalisations and deaths against those case numbers?  No that would be too difficult.

As for your bullshit description of the Nordic countries that takes the cake.

2 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

not stuck up close to the Arctic circle pff the beaten track with the Nordic 4 with same pop density and LOWER stringency BUT did far better.

When was the last time you travelled Jacko?

Which of the Nordic countries has the highest number of internal/external people movements by a significant margin? Hint:  for one factor one country has 40 million the next 30 million.

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14 hours ago, Matagi said:

To make a point you used data to that you had rejected not that long ago. The use of your evidence for your argument is incoherent and thus your argument does not stand.

NO I used YOUR data to prove YOU were wrong.  You can't have it both ways Matagi.

Doesn't change the fact that the Stringency Index data is crap for the very reasons I posted months ago.

However it would appear that you don't even think it can be used for comparative purposes amongs similar countries.  

That's the biggest problem with being unable the grasp the concept of multivariate analysis.

@Matagi and @jack_sparrow what level of Covid-19 deaths is a measure of success? 

At least Sweden didn't torture and harm their young children by banning them from attending school.

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3 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

Just in the EU/EAA there is 30 odd countries where Sweden had more excess deaths than over one third of them incl Germany and France having up to 5 times the population density.

They are also western European transport hubs internally & externally, not stuck up close to the Arctic circle pff the beaten track with the Nordic 4 with same pop density and LOWER stringency BUT did far better.

image.png.ed2f52cc12818c080c5a3504d2dd781c.png

BTW for stringency V Cases/Mortality you can always phone a friend who has now retreated to Godwin's Law.

 

As for "team", you two should be placed in a travelling exhibition post Covid until circuses get back on their feet.

Posted at 330am. Having trouble sleeping again Petal?

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5 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

LB instead of trolling here shouldn't you (& @The Dark Knightyour toade likey) be elsewhere?

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/221747-it’s-been-a-long-week-for-someone/&do=findComment&comment=7536288

Seems its getting warmer there

I started this thread, I have Swedish citizenship. Whats your connection aside from your cronic addiction to wanking to Swedish blue movies? 

You wouldn't have a fucking clue about the Swedish medical system, society or mentality if I hadn't given you that info at the start of this. Fuck off to what you know from first hand experience, whatever that may be.

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5 hours ago, Plan Covid Normal said:

[Blurb]

That's a hell of a way to prime the Flick-o-matic™.

I'd call you a fool but even that is wasted on an idiot sock like you.

 

Fuck off already.

 

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On 5/18/2021 at 11:56 AM, Plan Covid Normal said:

[snip]

Never seen you here before

[snip]

You haven't been around long enough. This place didn't spark to life with you popping in. Quite the contrary, really ... the signal to noise ratio in this part of the forum has shifted from informative to mostly a shitshow with few sane posters left who spend too much time fending off the loonies and socks. Your very existence as an "internet persona" adds to that demise as you were created to add noise.

Usually, I put designer socks like you right on ignore and never quote or answer them, but: In your post that I have quoted as "Blurb" you announced to basically out another forum member, @The Dark Knight and his wife (!). That's a big no-no around here. But you probably knew that. Or maybe not. Who cares.

 

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15 minutes ago, PeterSailor said:

Give PCN a chance, he's good at distracting Kate.

Doesn't distract me at all.  @Plan Covid Normaland his other sock @jack_sparrow's modus operandi is obvious.  It isn't about informed debate about science at all.  What he is on about is hard to fathom although it would appear that this forum is his life.

What you and many others don't see is that your sycophantic following of the Sparrow is only distracting yourselves.

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  • 3 weeks later...

An absent friend dear old Jack Sparrow was very critical (well critical for Jacko was a zillion toilet roll posts of personal abuse, obfuscation and concealment) of when I posted accumulative excess mortality metrics for the duration of the pandemic.  Primarily I guess because they clearly showed that Sweden wasn't that far away from its Nordic neighbours as raw mortality figures would suggest.  Looking at the latest figures Sweden and Denmark are now nearly the same!

The accumulative excess mortality for Sweden that I posted was around 4.5%.  The following author calculates 4.1%.  

https://shahar-26393.medium.com/not-a-shred-of-doubt-sweden-was-right-32e6dab1f47a

However the following is an interesting graph which shows the All Cause deaths per million.  It shows that the year prior to 2020 was an outlier with a very mild flu season and that 2020 appears to have been a catch up year.

Excess mortality in Sweden in flu year 2019–2020

Continuation of the line, which was fit by the statistical model, yields the following estimates: In 2018–2019 there was “mortality deficit” in Sweden of 300 per million people (-3.3%) whereas in 2019–2020, the pandemic year, there was excess mortality of 364 per million people (+4.1%). Excess mortality following mortality deficit, and vice versa, are well known and expected, as the main source of mortality is an elderly population with limited life expectancy.

image.png.050613cd2d3709a5cda0d60cebaa4ced.png

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On 6/9/2021 at 5:51 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

An absent friend dear old Jack Sparrow was very critical (well critical for Jacko was a zillion toilet roll posts of personal abuse, obfuscation and concealment) of when I posted accumulative excess mortality metrics for the duration of the pandemic.  Primarily I guess because they clearly showed that Sweden wasn't that far away from its Nordic neighbours as raw mortality figures would suggest.  Looking at the latest figures Sweden and Denmark are now nearly the same!

The accumulative excess mortality for Sweden that I posted was around 4.5%.  The following author calculates 4.1%.  

https://shahar-26393.medium.com/not-a-shred-of-doubt-sweden-was-right-32e6dab1f47a

However the following is an interesting graph which shows the All Cause deaths per million.  It shows that the year prior to 2020 was an outlier with a very mild flu season and that 2020 appears to have been a catch up year.

Excess mortality in Sweden in flu year 2019–2020

Continuation of the line, which was fit by the statistical model, yields the following estimates: In 2018–2019 there was “mortality deficit” in Sweden of 300 per million people (-3.3%) whereas in 2019–2020, the pandemic year, there was excess mortality of 364 per million people (+4.1%). Excess mortality following mortality deficit, and vice versa, are well known and expected, as the main source of mortality is an elderly population with limited life expectancy.

image.png.050613cd2d3709a5cda0d60cebaa4ced.png

Too much truth for Jack!

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  • 1 month later...
41 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Indications that Stockholm has reached herd immunity, given limited restrictions, against several variants of SARS-CoV-2

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.07.21260167v1.full-text

Meanwhile CA masks up and locks down again. Silly Dumbocrats.

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

Meanwhile CA masks up and licks down again. Silly Dumbocrats.

WessGrimReaper.png.0a37450f89e4d16172e3c979a5794751.png

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38 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Indications that Stockholm has reached herd immunity, given limited restrictions, against several variants of SARS-CoV-2

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.07.21260167v1.full-text

It's a poorly written paper but it does raise the very good hypothesis of pre-immunity.  Which explains the rapid decline in case numbers BEFORE vaccination.

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Just now, Kate short for Bob said:

It's a poorly written paper but it does raise the very good hypothesis of pre-immunity.  Which explains the rapid decline in case numbers BEFORE vaccination.

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Randumb - you keep forgetting the one about more deaths from the vaccine than the disease itself reported to VAERS last week! Come on. If you are going to shrill for the left at least do a decent job of it!!

This place is so much fun. 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

Randumb - you keep forgetting the one about more deaths from the vaccine than the disease itself reported to VAERS last week! Come on. If you are going to shrill for the left at least do a decent job of it!!

This place is so much fun. 

WessGrimReaper.png.0a37450f89e4d16172e3c979a5794751.png

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You hurt my feeling by not fixing it and adding that quote about the VAERS reports of vaccine deaths.

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29 minutes ago, PeterSailor said:

BE will eventually get a Nobel for his single variable equation Covid theory.

The anti-vaxxers are back in force.

This 4th (or is it 5th) wave of Delta variant must have their bot-masters very hopeful.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, PeterSailor said:

BE will eventually get a Nobel for his single variable equation Covid theory.

Sure hope so! 

You dullards absolutely shit on the entire world, to save your old, out of shape, fat asses. Now, you have the gal to preach to others who don't want to do what you tell them to do.  Fuck off.  Seriously.  

What sort of authoritarian, unauthentic, unconvincing, dipshit thinking.


The data is in dude. If you can read, or have any brain cells left after 18 months of hysterics... you can see it for yourself.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Sure hope so! 

You dullards absolutely shit on the entire world, to save your old, out of shape, fat asses. Now, you have the gal to preach to others who don't want to do what you tell them to do.  Fuck off.  Seriously.  

What sort of authoritarian, unauthentic, unconvincing, dipshit thinking.


The data is in dude. If you can read, or have any brain cells left after 18 months of hysterics... you can see it for yourself.

What can be seen is the lying and mis-representation... this thread for example, with the anti-vaxxers pretending that 1- Sweden has some kind of outstanding pandemic result and 2- Sweden never had any lockdowns, thus proving that lockdowns don't work (and thus are the product of authoritarian etc etc)

Both premises 1 and 2 are flat-out lies.

So, yeah, the data is in... but not "in dude"

- DSK

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

1- Sweden has some kind of outstanding pandemic result and 2- Sweden never had any lockdowns, thus proving that lockdowns don't work (and thus are the product of authoritarian etc etc)

Both premises 1 and 2 are flat-out lies.

Not correct.

4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

1- Sweden has some kind of outstanding pandemic result

How do you measure good vs bad pandemic management "results"?  In terms of deaths per million Sweden is ranked 37th.  Age adjusted excess mortality is 1.7% for the course of the pandemic.  

Sweden's results are skewed by a bad decision initially with regard to aged care which although resulted in preventable deaths in the elderly and frail is not as bad as similar decisions made by some USA states particularly New York. 

89% of Sweden's deaths were those aged over 70.  With nearly all having comorbidities.  70% were over the average mortality age.

15 deaths under the age of 20 and all had other serious illnesses.

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa/page/page_0/

Out of 22 European countries Sweden ranked 18th in terms of "good" results.  Yes their neighbours did better but the significant difference between them and Sweden was that Sweden was much slower in closing their borders and they had a higher and more distributing Covid-19 seeding event.

5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

2- Sweden never had any lockdowns

Correct Sweden never had any lockdowns.

If you read the link to the research I posted above you can read a clear and definitive description of the NPI's that Sweden took.

They didn't have mandatory mask wearing - they were recommended.  Survey's showed that very few people actually wore masks.

Liquor stores had their hours reduced from 10pm to 8pm closing.

Restaurants and bars remained open but with table service only and a limit on numbers at a table.

Junior schools all remained open through the entire pandemic.  How many countries did that and had much worse results not only in terms of Covid-19 outcomes but in terms of the health and education of their children.

High Schools and Universities did go to remote learning but in-person teaching was only closed for about 3 months.

None of this is anywhere near approaching what could be called a lockdown in the UK or USA sense.

 

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22 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

...

Correct Sweden never had any lockdowns.   ...

 

RWNJ lie... why do they love it so much?

Again, about 30 seconds worth of googling reveals the obvious truth.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2020/12/sweden-s-covid-19-failures-have-exposed-myths-lockdown-sceptics

..."Of late, these champions have fallen silent. It’s not hard to explain why. Recent days have seen Sweden’s Nordic neighbours Finland and Norway offering emergency medical assistance as Stockholm’s hospitals have been overwhelmed, infections and deaths have spiked dramatically upward, and the King of Sweden has made an unprecedented criticism of the government’s bungled strategy.

Unprecedented, but hardly surprising: Sweden has suffered a death rate that is roughly ten times that of neighbouring Norway and nine times that of Finland." ....

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9569833/Covid-Entering-lockdown-earlier-Sweden-curbed-wave-deaths-40-study-says.html

"... Sweden drew early praise from lockdown sceptics ..." ... "...December. Sweden now has the highest infection rate in Europe, with 467.5 cases per million people recorded yesterday.  The nation's hospitals are taking a battering..." ... " (Sweden) was forced to introduce some more stringent measures at the start of the year, including limiting the numbers of people allowed at social gatherings to eight. ..." ... Frankfurt School of Finance and Management and University of Tübingen scientists analysed Sweden's death rates.  The country's death rate per one million people is many times higher than that of its Nordic neighbours."

The notoriously left-wing Business Insider says

https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-facing-its-first-lockdown-as-covid-19-restrictions-tightened-2021-2?op=1

"Sweden has U-turned on several of its coronavirus measures and is now facing its first lockdown, warns PM"

That last headline is from February.

So yeah, you're full of shit.

As usual.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Of late, these champions have fallen silent. It’s not hard to explain why. Recent days have seen Sweden’s Nordic neighbours Finland and Norway offering emergency medical assistance as Stockholm’s hospitals have been overwhelmed, infections and deaths have spiked dramatically upward, and the King of Sweden has made an unprecedented criticism of the government’s bungled strategy.

Unprecedented, but hardly surprising: Sweden has suffered a death rate that is roughly ten times that of neighbouring Norway and nine times that of Finland." ....

You really need to Google better News sources.  Or better still, although it is probably beyond your level of literacy, do some research in Science Journals.

I see they leave Denmark out of the Nordic comparison now.

The "Neighbour" argument is a weak one too when you consider that Sweden did much much better than all its other neighbours.  Norway and Finland are catching up though as you can't defy the inevitability of mortality or fight the average forever.  Again a concept you would have difficulty in understanding.

No third wave yet in Sweden.  Children haven't stopped being educated.  Sweden certainly looked after the education, health and welfare of their children.  Very admirable.

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3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Sweden certainly looked after the education, health and welfare of their children.  Very admirable.

When did they start looking after their children's education and health? The last I heard pre-covid, the childrens emergency ward at their leading hospital, Karolinska, kept getting closed to staff shortage. My partner watched a child in her care die because the hospital did not have any doctors at the hospital and the oncall doctor despite her pleas would not come in to the hospital. They then tried to pin the blame on my partner. 

As for education, a Swedish masters degree is no better than a normal degree elsewhere and they are more about presentation than actual work. 

 

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3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You really need to Google better News sources

MikeyKateAntiVax.jpg.a20d7a343be04e579bf01ca99b968b10.jpg

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45 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

When did they start looking after their children's education and health?

During Covid-19 they have kept Primary Schools open for the reason that children are at greater health risk by not attending school than they are from Covid-19.

That's what a multidimensional approach to pandemic management calls for.

48 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

As for education, a Swedish masters degree is no better than a normal degree elsewhere and they are more about presentation than actual work.

I'm sure Primary School children have other needs than worrying at this stage about quality of their post graduate education in 15 years time.  

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

During Covid-19 they have kept Primary Schools open for the reason that children are at greater health risk by not attending school than they are from Covid-19.

That's what a multidimensional approach to pandemic management calls for.

I'm sure Primary School children have other needs than worrying at this stage about quality of their post graduate education in 15 years time.  

It does not change the fact that the Swedish approach to covid was fucked. 

They should have shutdown at the start of the pandemic to buy some time to prepare for the "Swedish" approach. They didn't and a lot of people lost their lives because no one was ready.

Their hospital system was not prepared for normal hospitalisations, let alone a pandemic spike. Everything else needed time to be ready.

If you can't concede that, then you are an idiot.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

It does not change the fact that the Swedish approach to covid was fucked. 

They should have shutdown at the start of the pandemic to buy some time to prepare for the "Swedish" approach. They didn't and a lot of people lost their lives because no one was ready.

Their hospital system was not prepared for normal hospitalisations, let alone a pandemic spike. Everything else needed time to be ready.

If you can't concede that, then you are an idiot.

 

 

Are you sure you aren't talking about the UK or New York?

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19 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Their hospital system was not prepared for normal hospitalisations, let alone a pandemic spike. Everything else needed time to be ready.

Prepare for which wave the first wave in March 2020 or the second at the end of 2020?

The Swedish health system coped.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Are you sure you aren't talking about the UK or New York?

No confusion. I don’t tend to get confused about a county I am a citizen of. 
 

before the pandemic started, could you find Sweden on a map? admittedly being at the top of the Italian boot does make it easy.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Prepare for which wave the first wave in March 2020 or the second at the end of 2020?

The Swedish health system coped.

You are not very bright are you. 
 

it never copes with its normal, so how did it cope with a pandemic?

Letting people die alone at home without any treatment and free beds in a hospital because there is not enough nurses to cover them is not what I’d call coping. 

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3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:
5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:
...

You are not very bright are you. 
 

No, there is an old southern (USA) expression "dumber than a stump" which rather accurately describes it

Blatting on and on about Sweden's wonderful results with no covid lockdown is just one example, but this is a popular right-wing lie in the USA at this time

Tragic, really

- DSK

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Blatting on and on about Sweden's wonderful results with no covid lockdown is just one example

Can you provide anything from an official source that confirms your assertion that Sweden had an extensive lockdown?

Primary Schools remained open.  Are you saying they didn't?

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On 7/18/2021 at 9:14 AM, Wess said:

July 17 2021 CVID deaths in Sweden = 0.  The 7 day average = 1.

Still the same.

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  • 4 weeks later...

You elk still hollering about Sweden?

Think about this: Sweden has a higher percentage of vaccinated population that the US. They started vaccinating earlier, and got 88% of their >65 population vaccinated.

When asked, ~ 95% of Swedes say they intend to get vaccinated against covid.

- DSK

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