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PHRF Spinnaker Vs. Non-Spinnaker Ratings


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Anyone aware of PHRF committees that allow for one configuration when racing spinnakered (fully crewed) and a different configuration under non-spinnaker? Without the different configurations, the boat would rate the same. And by configuration differences, I mean standard published LP and WSP credits not different rudders or rigs that would required a rating assessment..

In may case I'd like to do my weekend racing fully crewed with the boat's 155 genoa; for weeknight non-spinnaker racing, I'd prefer to race with a 135 #2 and get a 6 second credit. Reason being that I don't want to have to rely on the same caliber of crew for beer can racing as for spinnakered racing. Being non-spinnakered, the skill requirements are lessened. But the 155 can be a handful in above 8 knots. So drop down in max LP make tacking easier and safer, sail with all skill levels and get a standard LP credit of +6 seconds. No brainer?

The WSP credit is available anytime since it only applies to non-spinnakered racing. Though I'd be hard-pressed to take a credit for a J length whisker pole if I had to sail with the 155 because I couldn't get credit for going with a smaller genoa.

Anyone with any thoughts or experience with this? Not trying to make work for anyone. Again, this would be to take advantage of readily available, published credits.

 

 

 

 

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^^^ mine is also 18 sec/mi for non-spinnaker.   When I enter a race, I put in my NFS handicap and note that I will be non-spinnaker for that race.

I think your handicap is based on the largest headsail the boat measured in.  Not sure you can have your handicap adjusted on the fly by saying you only plan to use the 135 (you might, I just don't know)

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Check with your PHRF rater. Maybe you can get a second cert for a different sail configuration and use the different certs depending on the race. 

I race with PHRF-NW where it’s 15 or 18 additional seconds to race non-flying. I’m still rated with my largest sail. 
 

I’ve wondered about doing the same and having a short handed handicap with my #2 headsails (gets me 9 points) and asym kites flown off of a small sprit.  I’m not racing enough right now to justify two certs though. 

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12 minutes ago, sledracr said:

^^^ mine is also 18 sec/mi for non-spinnaker.   When I enter a race, I put in my NFS handicap and note that I will be non-spinnaker for that race.

I think your handicap is based on the largest headsail the boat measured in.  Not sure you can have your handicap adjusted on the fly by saying you only plan to use the 135 (you might, I just don't know)

Yes I want to and would agree to only use the 135 when racing non-spinnakered. Nothing would be on-the-fly. The changes would be declared once a year. The certificate already has columns for non-spinnaker and spinnakered ratings. The allowable charges/credits seem to include the length of the whisker pole under the non-spinnaker rating and charges for having a penalty pole and/or oversized chutes under the spinnaker rating. The jib seems hard-coded with one value which is my question. seems you should be able to declare a max LP under the two types of racing. 

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BTW... The 18 second difference... That's not to try and rate a mixed fleet of spinnakered and non-spinnakered boats is it? Otherwise it doesn't matter if it's zero (in my case) or 18 as long as the spinnakered/non-spinnakered delta is consistently applied.

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I don't think your PHRF board is going to be able to do what you want to do. If you declare your 155, that's what your spin and non-spin rating are going to be based on. In Mass Bay, your PHRF certificate has to reflect your boat as you sail it, and you are only allowed to change your cert once per year - some J109s used to do that, using their big 155's for the first half of the season when the breezes were light and re-rating later in the year with their class jib when the breezes got heavier. Under ORR-ez, you can have a fully crewed certificate with one sail configuration and a shorthanded certificate with a different sail configuration - at least one boat has done that this year (surprise! a J109 that wants the big jib for the fully crewed and the smaller, more easily handled, for shorthanded events). You'd have to check the PHRF bylaws for your area, but my guess is they won't issue you two certs, which is really the only way PHRF can handle the changes.

 

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Most regions only allow one certificate per season, or at least one active one and allowing one change.  Some others allow multiple configurations so that boats can enter different events and tailor to how they would like to race (i.e. single/double handed, cruising class, etc..)

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1 hour ago, ryley said:

I don't think your PHRF board is going to be able to do what you want to do. If you declare your 155, that's what your spin and non-spin rating are going to be based on.

Why? Where's the logic? Different racing, one never against the other.

1 hour ago, ryley said:

some J109s used to do that, using their big 155's for the first half of the season when the breezes were light and re-rating later in the year with their class jib when the breezes got heavier. Under ORR-ez, you can have a fully crewed certificate with one sail configuration and a shorthanded certificate with a different sail configuration - at least one boat has done that this year (surprise! a J109 that wants the big jib for the fully crewed and the smaller, more easily handled, for shorthanded events). You'd have to check the PHRF bylaws for your area, but my guess is they won't issue you two certs, which is really the only way PHRF can handle the changes.

 

Not talking about gaming the system. It'd be a season long declaration. And btw... our PHRF allows for different configurations when racing DH vs. fully crewed. Different animals, different configurations, different ratings. Why not same for spinnakered vs. non-spinnakered?

1 hour ago, sailman said:

Most regions only allow one certificate per season, or at least one active one and allowing one change.  Some others allow multiple configurations so that boats can enter different events and tailor to how they would like to race (i.e. single/double handed, cruising class, etc..)

It would be/could be "one certificate". Just tweak the certificate. Example below. No changing the certificate to suit the conditions or how many crew I happen to have that day. If racing spinnakered - 105 distance; if racing non-spinnakered - 114 windward/leeward. Easy peasy, lemon sqeezy.

PHRF Certificate.JPG

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so in other words, you're getting good advice from people who have dealt with PHRF boards for years, and rejecting it because it doesn't suit your narrative. In that case, go look up your region's PHRF bylaws and see if they will allow what you're asking. If it doesn't, contact your local phrf board and ask them to make an exception for you based on your logic (and I'm not disputing your logic). Report back with the results - we may all be surprised :)

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23 minutes ago, ryley said:

so in other words, you're getting good advice from people who have dealt with PHRF boards for years, and rejecting it because it doesn't suit your narrative. In that case, go look up your region's PHRF bylaws and see if they will allow what you're asking. If it doesn't, contact your local phrf board and ask them to make an exception for you based on your logic (and I'm not disputing your logic). Report back with the results - we may all be surprised :)

What's the good advice? Accept things as they are because that's the way they've always been done? Regardless of logic or what impact it has on participation? Note that in my first post, I asked for experience with this issue and not a recitation of what can't be done. Had asked my local board and got back: 

:The sailing configuration declared will be the same for all styles of racing. Requests to tailor LP, the use or not of roller furling systems, whisker pole lengths etc for different styles of sub-divisional racing will be denied." No explanation behind the ruling.

Goes on to say that this does not apply to DH racing since for that a separate certificate is provided. This is too literal. Add two more columns to the table for DH racing and you're down to one certificate.Also says the rationale for a separate DH certificate is necessary to describe a potentially different configuration appropriate for how the boat is sailed DH'd.

All I'm asking is why can't that logic be extended to non-spinnakered racing? Once one argues there's a "potentially different configuration appropriate for how the boat is sailed" non-spinnakered?

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22 minutes ago, jnye said:

All I'm asking is why can't that logic be extended to non-spinnakered racing? Once one argues there's a "potentially different configuration appropriate for how the boat is sailed" non-spinnakered?

To bluntly add to the good advice you've already been given, it's because $40 bucks a year (or less) ain't worth the administration and work required to modify the existing certificate program.  Multiple certificates also have a tendency to be abused - it'd pretty obvious if a boat's racing doubles so that's easy to differentiate, but other situations can be less clear.

All this bitching over a 6 second difference in NFS racing?  Give your head a shake mate, just go sailing and get over yourself...

Alternatively, you could step up and take an active role in your local PHRF organization as a VOLUNTEER to both educate yourself and advocate the change you so strongly feel you deserve.

 

Cheers!

 

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22 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

To bluntly add to the good advice you've already been given, it's because $40 bucks a year (or less) ain't worth the administration and work required to modify the existing certificate program.  Multiple certificates also have a tendency to be abused - it'd pretty obvious if a boat's racing doubles so that's easy to differentiate, but other situations can be less clear.

All this bitching over a 6 second difference in NFS racing?  Give your head a shake mate, just go sailing and get over yourself...

Alternatively, you could step up and take an active role in your local PHRF organization as a VOLUNTEER to both educate yourself and advocate the change you so strongly feel you deserve.

 

Cheers!

 

Interesting advice to step up and "educate" myself. Do we know each other? If not you might want to reign it in a bit.

What I'm interested in is exploring the process and logic. The deductions are STANDARD! There'd be no second certificate or work required. We self-declare our max LP under spinnakered racing. Why not let us self-declare a second max LP for non-spinnakered racing? Stroke of a pen and it can happen.

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If you are in WLIS and are trying to change things PHRF well, good luck. (from Selig to Expo) etc.. 

Down here in NC, they give you one rating. You can list it is Spin but, if you race Non-spin, you sail the same rating.

The non- spin fleet is the largest and some consider it the most competitive compared to the very small U20, J70, J80 and J88 groups.

Not sure why you want a different rating unless you are going for the overall apples to oranges award. Just untie the boat.

Sail Safe!

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14 minutes ago, SailRacer said:

Not sure why you want a different rating...

So I can do our casual NS racing with a smaller, less skilled and less strong crew than when sailing spinnakered without carrying a penalty as though I was sailing under my spinnakered configuration. And do so more safely. 

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1 hour ago, jnye said:

All I'm asking is why can't that logic be extended to non-spinnakered racing? Once one argues there's a "potentially different configuration appropriate for how the boat is sailed" non-spinnakered?

By-laws exist for a reason - mostly to provide a uniform response . The response you got from your local PHRF board is based on their by-laws. If you want a different answer from them, get on the board and petition to have the by-laws changed. Then volunteer to police the changes.

But clearly you have a solution in mind and are outraged that your volunteer PHRF board is so inflexible. So your choices are: 1) be outraged and sail under the current rules. 2) petition your PHRF board to change their by-laws to accomodate your solution. 3) find a better rating system. 

that last one is tongue in cheek - if you're racing under phrf that's probably your only choice. in mass bay we asked the local PHRF board to make some reasonable changes, they basically said no, so we're into our 3rd year of an experiment that addresses exactly your situation.

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PHRF SoCal probably has one of the more complex rating systems. All boats have both a Regional and an Area rating, and potentially separate ratings for Windward-Leeward, Random Leg or Offwind courses.

In addition they will rate a boat separately if sailed in one-design configuration (which includes all class rules including any crew weight or crew number limitations). For example, a J-105 in a windward-leeward race rates 78, but in OD configuration rates 90. 

If the owner wants both, the board issues two separate, concurrent rating certificates for the boat.

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39 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

PHRF SoCal probably has one of the more complex rating systems. All boats have both a Regional and an Area rating, and potentially separate ratings for Windward-Leeward, Random Leg or Offwind courses.

In addition they will rate a boat separately if sailed in one-design configuration (which includes all class rules including any crew weight or crew number limitations). For example, a J-105 in a windward-leeward race rates 78, but in OD configuration rates 90. 

If the owner wants both, the board issues two separate, concurrent rating certificates for the boat.

Thank you. We also have separate ratings for W/L versus distance as shown in the screen grab above. And locally, the J105 has a base OD rating but could have a separate PHRF rating reflecting a larger jib and perhaps other changes. To my knowledge however, the 105 owner could not switch between the two for different PHRF events - they'd only have the PHRF rating reflecting the larger jib. The exception might be if the 105s were given a OD start in a mixed fleet. Say a 50 mile coastal race. In that case I'd hope the 105 with the larger jib could revert to it's OD configuration and race with other 105s with a one-design rating. And hopefully be competitive in their class but also against the rest of the PHRF fleet.

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If you don't think racing a beercan without a spinnaker is as hard as a weekend race with one, crew wise, why bother to quibble the rating? Just go out and sail. 

We figure in the Non-spinnaker fleet that if we are leading at the finish, and everyone else owes us time, it's easy to score. On those occasions where a boat with a lower rating finishes ahead, we have to actually count seconds behind. 

Then again, I'm probably one of the few who's extended my J for rating purposes to carry a light air drifter free flying, that used to be a 180% from when Lioness was "Harrier" back in @Snaggletooth and @jesposito turf sailing out of City Island in the 60's-90's. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Alex W said:

Check with your PHRF rater. Maybe you can get a second cert for a different sail configuration and use the different certs depending on the race. 

I race with PHRF-NW where it’s 15 or 18 additional seconds to race non-flying. I’m still rated with my largest sail. 
 

I’ve wondered about doing the same and having a short handed handicap with my #2 headsails (gets me 9 points) and asym kites flown off of a small sprit.  I’m not racing enough right now to justify two certs though. 

I'm also in PHRF-NW and can confirm they will not give you a second cert for different sails. NFS is one thing because it's easy to look at the cert and adjust. If you allowed this everyone would just pick a sail configuration/cert based on the given wind conditions and it wouldn't do anyone any good.

It would be bullshit to have a boat rated with a 155% Genoa smoke your non-overlapping fractional on light days and then get 12 second credit when it's blowing 20kts. It would really fuck you over when you've got a planing hull boat that already pays dearly in light airs because of the possibility they might plane every once in a while.

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30 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

In our area we are at the point to give out sportsmanship awards if sailors simply declare their proper sail sizes, beams of destiny, missing transom doors, rudder changes, crew weights, folding props. etc.  And technically it’s PHRF Regulations which need to be changed and advised in the off-season   (not ByLaws which are more involved to change)  

Wh your you giveng awaye the YRAs secrestes?

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1 hour ago, climenuts said:

If you allowed this everyone would just pick a sail configuration/cert based on the given wind conditions and it wouldn't do anyone any good.

It would be bullshit to have a boat rated with a 155% Genoa smoke your non-overlapping fractional on light days and then get 12 second credit when it's blowing 20kts. It would really fuck you over when you've got a planing hull boat that already pays dearly in light airs because of the possibility they might plane every once in a while.

I'm surprised how difficult this seems to be. My proposal is to have one configuration for racing non-spinnaker that would apply all year to every race one did while racing non-spinnakered and a different configuration that would apply to all spinnakered racing throughout the year. No gaming the system based on wind.

If replying to Alex W. this is exactly what is permitted - a second configuration for racing DH'd. AFAIK any change would be permitted and rated. Add roller furling and get a DH'd credit. Check. Remove it and take away the credit for fully crewed racing. Sure. Same with different sized sails.

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Lake Shore Sail Club on Lake St. Clair, Michigan uses what they call a “Multi-Sail Rule.” 

If a symmetrical spinnaker is flown at any time during the race, the boat’s primary rating will be used as its rating for that race. 

If an asymmetrical spinnaker is flown at any time during a race, a six (6) second rating credit will be added to the boat’s primary rating for that race. 

If a boat chooses to sail JAM for the entire race, a twelve (12) second rating credit will be added to the boat’s primary rating for that race. 

Note, if both a symmetrical and an asymmetrical spinnaker are flown at any time during a race, then the boat’s primary rating will be used for that race. 

A boat, whose primary rating is based on the use of an asymmetrical spinnaker, such as “sprit” boats (J105, J120, etc), will not be eligible for the six (6) second rating credit for an asymmetrical spinnaker, but will receive the full twelve (12) second rating credit if they choose to sail JAM only for the entire race.

https://2dc46ca7-b18b-482d-8bb7-135615d3b970.filesusr.com/ugd/d13db2_3d772c11d0a642129ce6b1cf1070a03e.pdf

We've been racing their 6-week Wednesday Sunset Series (2 per year) for 4 years now and results seem fair to us.

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36 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

In our area we are at the point to give out sportsmanship awards if sailors simply declare their proper sail sizes, beams of destiny, missing transom doors, rudder changes, crew weights, folding props. etc.  And technically it’s PHRF Regulations which need to be changed and advised in the off-season   (not ByLaws which are more involved to change)  

Ah yes... The beam of destiny... Another sordid story. 

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48 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

And technically it’s PHRF Regulations which need to be changed and advised in the off-season   (not ByLaws which are more involved to change)  

This was my point about with the stroke of a pen it could happen. The local PHRF committee changes the non-spin regulations and the ExComm approves since "Decisions of the Committees affecting the membership shall be ratified by the Executive Committee before becoming effective."

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22 minutes ago, Morgan Crewed said:

Lake Shore Sail Club on Lake St. Clair, Michigan uses what they call a “Multi-Sail Rule.” 

If a symmetrical spinnaker is flown at any time during the race, the boat’s primary rating will be used as its rating for that race. 

If an asymmetrical spinnaker is flown at any time during a race, a six (6) second rating credit will be added to the boat’s primary rating for that race. 

If a boat chooses to sail JAM for the entire race, a twelve (12) second rating credit will be added to the boat’s primary rating for that race. 

Note, if both a symmetrical and an asymmetrical spinnaker are flown at any time during a race, then the boat’s primary rating will be used for that race. 

A boat, whose primary rating is based on the use of an asymmetrical spinnaker, such as “sprit” boats (J105, J120, etc), will not be eligible for the six (6) second rating credit for an asymmetrical spinnaker, but will receive the full twelve (12) second rating credit if they choose to sail JAM only for the entire race.

https://2dc46ca7-b18b-482d-8bb7-135615d3b970.filesusr.com/ugd/d13db2_3d772c11d0a642129ce6b1cf1070a03e.pdf

We've been racing their 6-week Wednesday Sunset Series (2 per year) for 4 years now and results seem fair to us.

This sounds like a Race Committee’s nightmare.  Do boats announce their sail choices before or after racing? Does the RC have to watch to make sure no one “forgets”? The results on the LSSC website seem to include the entire fleet as one division, regardless of which sails were used.  Is there only one start, and everybody sails the same course?    

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YOU may not be trying to scam the system.  

But allowing multiple concurrent ratings,  which is basically what you want to do has proven to be a minefield in the past.  From 12M racing down it has provided headaches and bad blood between competitors as people weren't able to confirm which certificate was being used and whether the boat was in that configuration on any given day.

In your case it would be obvious which sail you were using & you claim to want to use each certificate for different series and not chop & change within a series,  BUT once you have been granted an exemption from the one certificate rule why shouldn't everyone else?  And not everyone will have intentions as pure as yours.

A possible answer is if you have more than one rating system available,  rate under a different one for each config.  Of course this only works where one of the series has a second option.

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This whole Spin vs Non Spin is a joke.

The Non Spin offset was designed for a Non Spin Class.

There is no way in HELL, you can rate a boat not using a spinnaker against a boat using a spinnaker.

In our area we have eliminated the Non Spin offset and created a class for non spin boats to race. It has been well received and we will be replicating it this year if the Virus BS gets resolved.

Sailing BS should be the name of this site.

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3 hours ago, climenuts said:

It would be bullshit to have a boat rated with a 155% Genoa smoke your non-overlapping fractional on light days and then get 12 second credit when it's blowing 20kts. 

I agree that it would suck if it were used to gain the system. Having a short handed cert on the other hand seems like it wouldn’t game the system and would be easy to watch for. Just mark the rating so you know they are using it. 
 

A J/105 is a lot easier to sail doublehanded with code 5555 sails than my Express 37. As a result I do all of my short handed races rated for sails that I’ll never use, but some of my competition does. It would be nice to get rated properly there.  Short handed I use a 2 as my largest sail (my rating would be 81 for that) and a smaller a-kite that is tacked to the stem fitting (not measured, might go to 87). 
 

It’s been more on my mind this year with what looks like a total absence of crewed racing. 
 

It’s certainly not the end of the world since I’m racing to get out there. Winning is usually a fun surprise. 

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1 hour ago, PaulK said:

This sounds like a Race Committee’s nightmare.  Do boats announce their sail choices before or after racing?

That does sound awful (the system as described). I think this should be a registration time decision, just as NFS vs FS is. 

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Again, like so many people, you are having an argument on an internet forum, rather than with the PHRF committee that governs the area you race in.  Do you think if we all agree with you, you challenge in suggesting a change to their current rating procedure will get any easier?  I can just see it now...."but everyone on Sailing Anarchy agrees with me..."

Your idea has merit, but we don't make the rules.  Too many of your "friends and competitors" will certainly try to take advantage of mulitple ratings.  Ask Socal what happened when they tried to do a "Corinthian" Rating...

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9 hours ago, TUBBY said:

A possible answer is if you have more than one rating system available,  rate under a different one for each config.  

Another possible answer  how about just buy two of the same boats and use one for non Spinnaker racing with one CERT and another one with a spinnaker rating...there's another for sale in Kingston Ontario right now...............

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19 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

PHRF SoCal probably has one of the more complex rating systems. All boats have both a Regional and an Area rating, and potentially separate ratings for Windward-Leeward, Random Leg or Offwind courses.

In addition they will rate a boat separately if sailed in one-design configuration (which includes all class rules including any crew weight or crew number limitations). For example, a J-105 in a windward-leeward race rates 78, but in OD configuration rates 90. 

If the owner wants both, the board issues two separate, concurrent rating certificates for the boat.

I would imagine that the multiple rating system is meant to even out boat characteristics that may be favored in predominately one course versus another.  Rather than giving owners multiple configurations to be able to select from. Do they really give out multiple certificates per boat if one requests an OD? In PHRF-NE the OD rating seems to be part of the existing certificate, and isn't really relevant unless the boat is always sailing in OD configuration. The boats in my area, even those that do have an OD rating, aren't allowed to choose which configuration they race under depending on who shows up to crew that particular day. The OD rating exists if they have class racing within whatever race, or if they actually sail in that configuration.It's a baseline, nothing more, unless those boat choose to sail with their OD sails.

I don't think that giving out multiple ratings to a boat in PHRF is a great idea. As others have mentioned, it is too easy for somebody to start playing the system based on weather reports, or who is available to sail. If one has two ratings available to them, one with a 135 and the other with the 150, if it was expected to be breezy why wouldn't the owner say "Oh we have the B team here so we are going to sail with the smaller sail". I'm not saying that the OP intends to do that; I'm saying if this sort of thing is allowed there is going to be a lot of people jumping on board for competitive advantage purposes. While there may be some who frown upon taking advantage of that, if the rules clearly allowed multiple certificates and one had the ability to choose which rating to sail under for a given race based on who showed up to sail, or what the weather forecast was, why WOULDN'T one take advantage of that? If it became legal it would just be another step in having a competitive boat..i.e, have a properly maintained bottom, good sails, multiple rating certificates..

I've sailed in some regattas where the option to declare spinnaker/non spinnaker was allowed last minute, and the amount of boats that would switch based on the forecast was ridiculous. Ratings already provoke enough BS. Theres a reason why many PHRF authorities don't allow more than one certificate change per season.

 

Conversely, in the OP's case...have you considered ditching the 155, and just sailing with the 135? You'd get the rating credit for the entire season, though obviously you'd be slower in light air. And your rating would reflect that. Is it worth more than 3/secs in real life?

Or, try to attract more crew for the weeknight stuff? If the weeknight stuff is non-spinnaker, you don't exactly need a lot of talent, maybe just some more muscle.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

I don't think that giving out multiple ratings to a boat in PHRF is a great idea. As others have mentioned, it is too easy for somebody to start playing the system based on weather reports, or who is available to sail. If one has two ratings available to them, one with a 135 and the other with the 150, if it was expected to be breezy why wouldn't the owner say "Oh we have the B team here so we are going to sail with the smaller sail". I'm not saying that the OP intends to do that; I'm saying if this sort of thing is allowed there is going to be a lot of people jumping on board for competitive advantage purposes.

Thanks for the reply...

First point is a bit of a straw man however. Everyone agrees you should not be able to select a rating configuration to take advantage of the weather or your crew situation within a "style" of racing. But what about across styles. In my case, there'd be no cross-over between styles of racing. Spinnakered for exclusively weekend racing; non-spinakered for evening beer can racing.

But what if I'd entered a fully crewed, weekend spinnakered race and half my crew become unavailable? What'd be the harm in petitioning the OA to move me ("cross-over") to non-spinnaker? And it just so happens that my non-spinnaker rating is different than my spinnakered rating? Especially if the alternative is not racing at all?

Yes I suppose some could look at the wind and say their chances are better to race fully crewed in the non-spinnaker class with smaller sails and a rating benefit so I'll ask to have my entry switched. Special place in Hell for them. People would wise up to that fast and I'd hope future change requests would get difficult to come by.

3 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

I've sailed in some regattas where the option to declare spinnaker/non spinnaker was allowed last minute, and the amount of boats that would switch based on the forecast was ridiculous. Ratings already provoke enough BS. Theres a reason why many PHRF authorities don't allow more than one certificate change per season.

So don't automatically allow class assignment changes. Leave it up to the OA.

3 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

Conversely, in the OP's case...have you considered ditching the 155, and just sailing with the 135? You'd get the rating credit for the entire season, though obviously you'd be slower in light air. And your rating would reflect that. Is it worth more than 3/secs in real life?

Or, try to attract more crew for the weeknight stuff? If the weeknight stuff is non-spinnaker, you don't exactly need a lot of talent, maybe just some more muscle.

I'm not interested in sailing with the 135 all the time. The 6 seconds doesn't begin to compensate for the performance loss in the typical mid-distance long day racing we do around here. And just bin my L1, H1 and JT? 145 @3 seconds maybe but then I'd want to replace the sails geared for a 155 LP.

We're actually seeing good activity in the PHRF 90 - 130 range and I've lost crew who've become boat owners so that makes things tougher. Tried the junior route and that's helped but not getting as much uptake as I'd like.

Yes, once the breeze is up a bit it's about muscle and safety. And moving weight around through tacks to keep the boat on its feet and not spinning out.

Also there's the whisker pole, It's not just any crew that can manage a 17' collapsible whisker pole. Hand-in-hand with the 135 max LP choice would be to take a 3 second credit for a max whisker pole length = J (11.7').

Bottom line is I'm trying to make the boat easier and safer to sail when raced casually. So I can accommodate a wider range of skill and experience levels. And even though it's beer-can racing it's still racing however casual, I'd like to not give away too much rating vs. performance. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jnye said:

Bottom line is I'm trying to make the boat easier and safer to sail when raced casually.

You're in complete control of making the boat easier and safer to sail.  You can make whatever choices you want in those regards.

The bottom line is actually that you want PHRF (or an OA) to give you competitive allowances for those choices.  That's different.

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2 hours ago, jnye said:

Thanks for the reply...

First point is a bit of a straw man however. Everyone agrees you should not be able to select a rating configuration to take advantage of the weather or your crew situation within a "style" of racing. But what about across styles. In my case, there'd be no cross-over between styles of racing. Spinnakered for exclusively weekend racing; non-spinakered for evening beer can racing.

But what if I'd entered a fully crewed, weekend spinnakered race and half my crew become unavailable? What'd be the harm in petitioning the OA to move me ("cross-over") to non-spinnaker? And it just so happens that my non-spinnaker rating is different than my spinnakered rating? Especially if the alternative is not racing at all?

Yes I suppose some could look at the wind and say their chances are better to race fully crewed in the non-spinnaker class with smaller sails and a rating benefit so I'll ask to have my entry switched. Special place in Hell for them. People would wise up to that fast and I'd hope future change requests would get difficult to come by.

So don't automatically allow class assignment changes. Leave it up to the OA.

I'm not interested in sailing with the 135 all the time. The 6 seconds doesn't begin to compensate for the performance loss in the typical mid-distance long day racing we do around here. And just bin my L1, H1 and JT? 145 @3 seconds maybe but then I'd want to replace the sails geared for a 155 LP.

We're actually seeing good activity in the PHRF 90 - 130 range and I've lost crew who've become boat owners so that makes things tougher. Tried the junior route and that's helped but not getting as much uptake as I'd like.

Yes, once the breeze is up a bit it's about muscle and safety. And moving weight around through tacks to keep the boat on its feet and not spinning out.

Also there's the whisker pole, It's not just any crew that can manage a 17' collapsible whisker pole. Hand-in-hand with the 135 max LP choice would be to take a 3 second credit for a max whisker pole length = J (11.7').

Bottom line is I'm trying to make the boat easier and safer to sail when raced casually. So I can accommodate a wider range of skill and experience levels. And even though it's beer-can racing it's still racing however casual, I'd like to not give away too much rating vs. performance. 

 

 

In response to the first bolded questions, moving to Non-spinnaker is the appropriate move. I've been that guy, on that boat, having to shift divisions last minute because of crew not showing up. I get that. And my non-spinnaker rating took into account what sail I had. The alternative as to not racing at all? Do you currently not go out and sail because you don't like your rating?  If you have your less talented/able crew on a weeknight and its blowing 5 knots would you not put the 155 up with your current rating?

For what its worth, I think this is a good idea to the extent of possibly(?) encouraging more participation. I just don't see it being able to implemented on a case by case basis that is anything resembling fair, and I don't see making it broadly available to everyone a good thing. I also don't know how many boats are currently not showing up to race because of this issue. Maybe it is a more common problem than it seems?

I can see the inherent simplicity of just asking for an adjustment to your non-spin handicap number, and I say by all means do ask your local measurement authority about it. Maybe they can easily accommodate it. But for many of the reasons stated in this thread, the measurement authorities and other boat owners may not be so open minded about it, for better or for worse. 

You are able to make the boat safer and easier to sail, but you may not get a rating credit for that. And you, and every other owner out there like you who shows up to race even with reduced crew numbers and/or less than ideal crew capabilities should be commended and encouraged to keep doing so. Hopefully, regardless of what your local measurement authority says, you will be able to keep showing up for all forms of racing.

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1 hour ago, Cristoforo said:

Crew availability is as big as a barrier to entry as time and money. 

I don't disagree.  I'm on, I guess, the other side of the equation from the OP.  I pretty much always sail (and race) solo.  It's....just my choice.  My boat is rated for FS and NFS, and I'll choose which to enter based on the forecast and the course.  The PHRF-NW policies support that.  And I'm fine with having my boat rated based on the smaller-than-max-LP headsail I normally use. 

I'd *love* to have a rating adjustment for singlehanding.  Even against similarly-configured boats, I'm just never going to be competitive against a full crew, whether it's about bodies in positions at mark-roundings, or bodies on the rail upwind.  Other than SSS-sanctioned races, there just doesn't seem to be recognition that single-handing is a different playing field than fully crewed.

But at the end of the day, how many people I choose to bring on the boat is *my* choice.  So if PHRF doesn't give me an option for gaming my rating when I race solo... Meh.  It's a non issue.  I'm still going to race - or not race - because of the experience and the joy of being on the water around kindred souls.  I don't need an artificial "participation award" to feel good about it.

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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. My only follow-up relates to:

20 minutes ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

I just don't see it being able to implemented on a case by case basis that is anything resembling fair, and I don't see making it broadly available to everyone a good thing.

This is the point I'm not making well. It wouldn't be case-by-case. Let every owner declare a configuration for each discipline (fully crewed, DH'd and non-spinnaker) based on standard credits. We already do that (mostly) for two out of the three. Why would this not be a good thing (or at worst a push for some)? And yes, I can see where if an owner was changing non-standard parameters for each discipline (necessitating a rating evaluation for each) that being an issue which would require separate certificates and fees to cover.

In thinking about this more, the only objection I can see is where a prize is awarded across disciplines. Like a boat-of the-year trophy. In that case someone desperate enough to go for it could switch back and forth to their advantage. Solution? BOTY trophies unique for each discipline.

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47 minutes ago, jnye said:

Let every owner declare a configuration for each discipline (fully crewed, DH'd and non-spinnaker)

Let's play that through.

Right now, PHRF racing is pleasantly simple.  A boat has a spinnaker rating and (optionally) a non-spinnaker rating.  My competitor knows what my normal rating is and it is a five-second job to look up what my non-spin adjustment is.  He also has just one thing to track, for competitive purposes.... if he sees a kite go up on my boat, he knows he better see my base-rating listed on the results.  So he has a way to "trust but verify" that I'm within the rules, he knows who he's competing against, and it's easy to administrate.

Now lets look at the platter of options you'd like PHRF to embrace.  In addition to spin/non-spin, it would be fully-crewed or shorthanded (maybe even more.... fully-crewed, short-handed, DH or SH), and, for lack of a better term, big-headsails vs reduced headsails.  That's AT LEAST 8 permutations, maybe more, to keep track of.

Spin / fully-crewed / big headsails
Spin / fully crewed / reduced headsails
Spin / shorthanded / big headsails
Spin / shorthanded / reduced headsails
Non-spin / fully-crewed / big headstails
Non-spin / fully crewed / reduced headsails
Non-spin / shorthanded / big headsails
Non-spin / shorthanded / reduced headsails

Aside from the nightmare that would be for the local PHRF board to administrate, as a competitor I would HATE it.  How in the world would I know who my competition is unless I /A/ keep track of what headsails they're using, /B/ keep track of how many people are on the boat, and /C/ keep track of whether or not they raise a kite.    And then, if I'm serious about the competition, I'd have to know what the boat's rating is for each of those permutations (and twice that, if we differentiate "short handed", DH, SH), and I'd have to keep track of all of that long enough to make sure the right ratings showed up next to the names on the results. 

Should I really have to do all that?  Should I really have to know that you have a different rating for your 135 than for your 155, and keep track of which one you use, and then dig through the PHRF book to figure out what your rating is for the permutation(s) you showed during the race, and then take that to the results to make sure you didn't cheat (or "forget" to declare the right class.  Or change your mind as conditions warranted during the race.... I've seen people do that, launch a kite midway through a race, and declare the change from NFS to FS later..)

And then what do we do about the potentially-sketchy edge cases, like... "yeah we had 8 people on the boat, but 6 of those were just passengers, we were really doublehanding...."?

Nah.  I'd rather keep things as they are.  Not only less game-able, but a lot easier to enjoy.

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19 hours ago, PaulK said:

This sounds like a Race Committee’s nightmare.  Do boats announce their sail choices before or after racing? Does the RC have to watch to make sure no one “forgets”? The results on the LSSC website seem to include the entire fleet as one division, regardless of which sails were used.  Is there only one start, and everybody sails the same course?    

1) This sounds like a Race Committee’s nightmare. You'd have to verify with the RC, but as a particpant it isn NOT a nightmare.

2) Do boats announce their sail choices before or after racing?  After the race, when you cross the finish line, you radio to the RC what you flew

3) Does the RC have to watch to make sure no one “forgets”?   They can't, so we trust one another - it's the midwest, it works here.  That and others in the class would out you.

4)  ...One division, regardless of which sails were used?  IIRC there is one division.

5)  Is there only one start, and everybody sails the same course?  There are 6 classes and each class has its own start time with about 6 to 8 boats per class.  Yes, everyone sails the same course 

There are usually more details on the LSSC website the racing info has been omitted due to COVID concerns.  Meanwhile, most marinas and YCs have been closed by governor's orders.  Only last week did they lift the ban on any motorcraft that was motorized - no matter the engine size or if electirc. 

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This thread seems to be about big regions, but let me add another perspective.

I serve on an all-volunteer club regatta committee, and also on an all-volunteer lake-wide PHRF committee (with free certs, and no yearly renewal paperwork), as well as run our website with race registration.

We only have the resources to handle one rating per boat, and (at our club level), competitors can pick Spinnaker or Jib and Main, with one choice for Wednesdays, and another for weekends. Anything else would be too much work for our volunteer efforts. All the PROs are volunteers, and all club-member racers have to sign up for RC duty for one race a year. We only pay college kids to set marks, and all racing is free except for local non-members on Wednesday nights, which is $200 for the season. We also do persistent registration, so your boat stays registered until it goes away.

I would say our priorities are maximizing participation, minimizing volunteer workload, while providing fair and fun racing.

PS, Spin and JaM do not start together.

Cheers

 

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I'm surprised by this discussion concerning PHRF certificates.  Around here, boats are rated with 155% max genoas & other factory dimensions, not body count, possible wind speeds and smaller headsails.  One Design boats racing in PHRF are rated in their one design configuration, including smaller (135%) headsail limits if applicable, sail material limitations, crew body count or weight limits, etc., in conformance with their class rules.  I tire of OD cert boats running 8 people when their OD rules limit it to four and they win because of movable ballast, and when accosted claim they were running their legal sails and didn't know about the body count OD rule. Yah, you never read your own OD rules?

You can buy as many PHRF certificates as you want, and enter a race or series with any of your valid certs, but no switching after you enter.  That's a playable game,  enter windward-leeward racing using your One Design PHRF cert,  do the offshore stuff with your stock PHRF cert so you can fly 155% genoas, code zeros and have unlimited crew size.  Fairly common around here for strict One Design boats to have two certs.  Less common is a stock boat with more than one cert with a longer spinnaker pole & bigger kites for the offwind  offshore work with a fathead main, and a cert with a stock dimension pole & kites & main for inshore can racing.  That's expensive.  Although not PHRF, Roy Disney had a half dozen certs for Pyewacket, several different sail wardrobes and a rack of keels he'd switch out depending on whether it's TransPac or local Island races.  Big time playing the rules.

Concerning spin vs. non-spin,  there's been decades of PHRF "offsets" that theoretically fairly rate a JAM boat in a spin fleet but it's never worked out to be a fair race for either.   Clearly  JAM boats deserve their own start & most (all?) cognizant RCs recognise this.  Concerning single &  double handed racers getting a bonus in mixed PHRF races that's dumb, instead participate in the SH/DH races & don't allow your limited maneuverability to jeopardize fully crewed fleets. 

"After the race, when you cross the finish line, you radio to the RC what you flew."  That's insane.  Should I fly my 155%  on this leg and get line honors & the win or pop the 135% and correct out over boats that finish before me & win?   Also I abhor any radio communication(s) between the RC and an individual competitor when racing; it should be flags, cannons, sound signals to all and no other interaction.

Frankly if you're not flying a spinnaker downwind you're either an obsolete OD dinghy boat or deserve to be relegated to the JAM class to do battle with other losers who also haven't the finances and crew skills to seriously participate in sailboat racing even at the club level.

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12 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

I don’t think trophies are a consideration 

If trophies aren't a consideration then ratings don't matter at all. Sail with standard PHRF certificate, and calculate your own elapsed time based on what you think the rating should be,  to assess your own performance.

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11 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

If trophies aren't a consideration then ratings don't matter at all. Sail with standard PHRF certificate

^^^ this

The whole thread is based on the premise that I should be able to reconfigure my boat, my crew, my... whatever, and get an adjusted rating so I can still "win".

My belief is that making the PHRF system more complicated - and harder for the newbie to understand - will drive people away, not encourage growth.

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36 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

But there arent many like you that want to race solo or 2 up and skirt and grind in a 155 Genoa on a foil. 

Ah... yeah, that group also doesn't include me.

I race solo, but it is with my "normal" sails - I have a 125% on a furler, and a 165% asym in a sock.  My boat is rated with those sails (180 with spin, 201 NFS - I forgot, the small LP of my largest headsail gets me a 21 sec/mi credit instead of the normal 18 sec/mi)

If it gets sporty, I might switch to my 90% jib... or I might sit in front of the fireplace with a good book and a nice glass of scotch.  I race for fun, and for the personal challenge, not because I enjoy pain.

Oh, and I've chosen not to pursue the cruising-class rating adjustments that are available in PHRF-NW.  Yes, my furler would get me a credit.  There are a few other things that might, too.  But I don't care that much, and I don't load my boat down with a lot of crap,, so it doesn't seem fair (?) for me to push myself into the domain of liveaboards with dinghies on davits...

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Fixed it for you.

4 hours ago, sledracr said:

Now lets look at the platter of options you'd like PHRF to embrace.  In addition to spin/non-spin, it would be fully-crewed or shorthanded (maybe even more.... fully-crewed, short-handed, DH or SH), and, for lack of a better term, big-headsails vs reduced headsails.  That's AT LEAST 8 permutations, maybe more, to keep track of.

Spin / fully-crewed / big headsails
Spin / fully crewed / reduced headsails
Spin / shorthanded / big headsails whatever you choose as your max LP (which can be different from your fully crewed configuration)
Spin / shorthanded / reduced headsails
Non-spin / fully-crewed / big headstails
Non-spin / fully crewed / reduced headsails
Non-spin / shorthanded / big headsails
Non-spin / shorthanded / reduced headsails

3 configurations vs. 2, No flexibility to go big or small within a discipline (fully crewed, short-handed, non-spinnaker).

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3 hours ago, sledracr said:

How in the world would I know who my competition is unless I /A/ keep track of what headsails they're using, /B/ keep track of how many people are on the boat, and /C/ keep track of whether or not they raise a kite.

No different than now. If you can read a scratch sheet you'll know who your competition is

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3 hours ago, Streetwise said:

Te only have the resources to handle one rating per boat, and (at our club level), competitors can pick Spinnaker or Jib and Main, with one choice for Wednesdays, and another for weekends...

I would say our priorities are maximizing participation, minimizing volunteer workload, while providing fair and fun racing.

Perfecto! Someone's answered the question, "Anyone aware of PHRF committees that allow for one configuration when racing spinnakered (fully crewed) and a different configuration under non-spinnaker?".

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8 hours ago, Streetwise said:

We only allow one configuration and one rating. A competitor can choose Spin or JaM per series. This is not a game.

 

11 hours ago, jnye said:

Perfecto! Someone's answered the question, "Anyone aware of PHRF committees that allow for one configuration when racing spinnakered (fully crewed) and a different configuration under non-spinnaker?".

We only do one rating. With that rating, you can race Spin or JaM.

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On 4/28/2020 at 5:14 PM, jnye said:

Perfecto! Someone's answered the question, "Anyone aware of PHRF committees that allow for one configuration when racing spinnakered (fully crewed) and a different configuration under non-spinnaker?".

If you want different configurations, pay the fee and get a second certificate. Many of the big Sleds in So Cal have several Certificates.

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

If you want different configurations, pay the fee and get a second certificate. Many of the big Sleds in So Cal have several Certificates.

Not true.  
Prove me wrong.

Multiple concurrently valid certificates, issued by the same rating authority, for the same boat in different configurations.  And we know about crewed/doublehanded certs - we’re not talking about that.

Every new certificate replaces the one before it.  Only one is ever valid at a particular time.

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1 hour ago, Dacron said:

 

Every new certificate replaces the one before it.  Only one is ever valid at a particular time.

That's my understanding as well.  Underscored by the fact that at the end of the process, you agree that you're going to race the boat in the configuration documented in the certificate.  If you have two certificates, you can't simultaneously maintain that agreement for both of them.

If you change configuration in a way that would affect your rating, you have to report it to the OA and get a new certificate. 
 

phrf.JPG.c1761eba77ecddd6ba2617ef73b58d27.JPG

 

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2 hours ago, Dacron said:

Not true.  
Prove me wrong.

Multiple concurrently valid certificates, issued by the same rating authority, for the same boat in different configurations.  And we know about crewed/doublehanded certs - we’re not talking about that.

Every new certificate replaces the one before it.  Only one is ever valid at a particular time.

PHRF Southern California Fleet List here

Medicine Man (97777) has two concurrent rating certificates, apparently one for masthead and one for fractional.

A couple of J-105s have concurrent certificates if they choose to enter in their one-design configuration (smaller headsail & kite) 

There are a few other examples. I think it's up to the rating authority (at least within PHRF) whether they want to support multiple concurrent certs or not.

That said, I believe that boats are (or at least ought to be) required to declare what certificate they intend to sail under when they enter, they shouldn't be allowed to game it based on weather or last-minute crew availability. 

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33 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

PHRF Southern California Fleet List here

Medicine Man (97777) has two concurrent rating certificates, apparently one for masthead and one for fractional.

A couple of J-105s have concurrent certificates if they choose to enter in their one-design configuration (smaller headsail & kite) 

There are a few other examples. I think it's up to the rating authority (at least within PHRF) whether they want to support multiple concurrent certs or not.

That said, I believe that boats are (or at least ought to be) required to declare what certificate they intend to sail under when they enter, they shouldn't be allowed to game it based on weather or last-minute crew availability. 

Indeed.  You are right.  Article 6.7

https://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/Rules/lr.pdf

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Well then?  Switch to IRC. It has a non-spinnaker TCF included.  You simply declare per regatta if you want to sail without a spinnaker. And your rating will not change if you sail in another location.  World wide too! 
 

 

6C12B3C1-6424-4AA4-841D-D589743B64B4.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, George Hackett said:

Well then?  Switch to IRC. It has a non-spinnaker TCF included.  You simply declare per regatta if you want to sail without a spinnaker. And your rating will not change if you sail in another location.  World wide too! 
 

 

6C12B3C1-6424-4AA4-841D-D589743B64B4.jpeg

Yes, indeed.  But the non-spinnaker TCF is the same, save for the spinnaker parts of the rating.  So LP specifically, is the same, whether sailing with or without spinnakers.

The OP wants to change things up elsewhere in the certificate.  The boat already has a non-spin rating, based on the same sailplan.  The owner wants a non-spin rating based on a different sailplan.  IRC doesn’t allow that.  

Nowhere but PHRF SoCal permits that.

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14 hours ago, Dacron said:

Nowhere but PHRF SoCal permits that.

And ORR-ez.

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23 hours ago, Dacron said:

 IRC doesn’t allow that.  

That is IRC ignorance. IRC allows you to make any change you want. All you need to do is send in the new numbers for a new Rating Cert before you race with the changes.  
 

so, if I decide to go from Genoa on the J35 to Jibs? My rating will come down. So will the Non-Spinnaker Rating! 
 

for racing in Subic, I use Long Sprit with all Asy Kites. But when I bring Misty to the lumpy, strong currents of HK, I go with Pole and Sym Kites.  
 

and IRC is not based on wether the Rating guy got his morning blow job or not! 

DD7BCDB9-865E-4E1E-82C6-629F55A12CB3.jpeg

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35 minutes ago, George Hackett said:

That is IRC ignorance. IRC allows you to make any change you want. All you need to do is send in the new numbers for a new Rating Cert before you race with the changes.  
 

so, if I decide to go from Genoa on the J35 to Jibs? My rating will come down. So will the Non-Spinnaker Rating! 
 

for racing in Subic, I use Long Sprit with all Asy Kites. But when I bring Misty to the lumpy, strong currents of HK, I go with Pole and Sym Kites.  
 

and IRC is not based on wether the Rating guy got his morning blow job or not! 

 

Wasn't the claim that PHRF (except for PHRF SoCal) and IRC don't allow one to have concurrently held certificates? Not that if one needed a new certificate for a change, one could send in for it? 

Most PHRF areas only allow 1 switch per season between certificates. You can't just set up for a regatta in whatever configuration, and then change for the next regatta's configuration. Unless there is only one change needed for the entire season...Apparently you can do this in IRC?

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6 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

Wasn't the claim that PHRF (except for PHRF SoCal) and IRC don't allow one to have concurrently held certificates? Not that if one needed a new certificate for a change, one could send in for it? 

Most PHRF areas only allow 1 switch per season between certificates. You can't just set up for a regatta in whatever configuration, and then change for the next regatta's configuration. Unless there is only one change needed for the entire season...Apparently you can do this in IRC?

IRC only allows one Certificate at a time. But there is no limit to how often you can change.  They do limit you to six trail certificates a year.  But if you want to change your boat’s setup for a different region, then do so, then apply for a new certificate and then race that regatta. 
 

I see PHRF as a system stuck between PYS and IRC and they don’t know what to do! 

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This is supposed to be a for low-key, local, no-sweat midweek evening series. What if the OP simply spoke to the RC and told them he was using a smaller jib and should therefore get a rating adjustment?  It would be very simple for the RC to adjust his rating for that series alone. Wouldn’t impact other clubs or other events.  No fussing with PHRF committees or having to get new certificates issued. No additional costs. Just talk to the right person.  It must be possible.  At one point our club adjusted Wednesday night racing PHRF ratings each season based on the previous season’s results: you won the series, they cut your rating by six seconds, regardless of what the PHRF certificate said. Win again, six more cut. Certainly worked to keep us on our toes. This could solve the OP’s problem very easily. 

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1 hour ago, PaulK said:

This is supposed to be a for low-key, local, no-sweat midweek evening series. What if the OP simply spoke to the RC and told them he was using a smaller jib and should therefore get a rating adjustment?  It would be very simple for the RC to adjust his rating for that series alone. Wouldn’t impact other clubs or other events.  No fussing with PHRF committees or having to get new certificates issued. No additional costs. Just talk to the right person.  It must be possible.  At one point our club adjusted Wednesday night racing PHRF ratings each season based on the previous season’s results: you won the series, they cut your rating by six seconds, regardless of what the PHRF certificate said. Win again, six more cut. Certainly worked to keep us on our toes. This could solve the OP’s problem very easily. 

Apples and oranges comparo mate...

Your club adjusting PHRF ratings to become golf handicaps was (I assume) communicated, understood, and accepted by the participants beforehand.

But recommending that an RC should play with ratings at a participant's request is a different kettle of fish.  How are other competitors gonna know what's going on if their mate's rating keeps going yo-yo?  Handicaps should be consistent, and are not (and should never be) RC's responsibility, not even for "low-key, no-sweat midweek evening series".

If this is a true description of the OP's seriess, the simple solution is to eat the 6 seconds to ensure his own comfort and safety, and just go out and have fun...

Cheers!

 

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15 hours ago, George Hackett said:

That is IRC ignorance. IRC allows you to make any change you want. All you need to do is send in the new numbers for a new Rating Cert before you race with the changes.  
 

so, if I decide to go from Genoa on the J35 to Jibs? My rating will come down. So will the Non-Spinnaker Rating! 
 

for racing in Subic, I use Long Sprit with all Asy Kites. But when I bring Misty to the lumpy, strong currents of HK, I go with Pole and Sym Kites.  
 

and IRC is not based on wether the Rating guy got his morning blow job or not! 

DD7BCDB9-865E-4E1E-82C6-629F55A12CB3.jpeg

That is way too much work (and $$$) to race a J35.

 

26 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

Apples and oranges comparo mate...

Your club adjusting PHRF ratings to become golf handicaps was (I assume) communicated, understood, and accepted by the participants beforehand.

But recommending that an RC should play with ratings at a participant's request is a different kettle of fish.  How are other competitors gonna know what's going on if their mate's rating keeps going yo-yo?  Handicaps should be consistent, and are not (and should never be) RC's responsibility, not even for "low-key, no-sweat midweek evening series".

If this is a true description of the OP's series, the simple solution is to eat the 6 seconds to ensure his own comfort and safety, and just go out and have fun...

Cheers!

 

In our area, we will assign ratings to boats who do not have a cert, meaning they do not race at all except to have fun on the Summer Evening races. We simply look at the boat and do comparisons of other rated similar boats. If we cannot find any similar boats we pull a number out of our asses and go have fun.

If a boat already has rating, too bad, go race. No switching configurations or jumping classes unless you pay the individual race fees.

It is just too much work for the volunteers to keep track of someones BS from race to race.

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All rating systems have  their own set of problems.  Back in the 80s, I couldn’t understand why a particular boat in LI Sound rated differently in Newport. It was then explained to me how PHRF was ran locally, not nationally.  So the writing was on the wall back then that this system will piss off a lot and favor a few. 

we have seen IOR, IMS, and others come and go.  IOR and IMS were good systems that were run nationally and internationally. Owners knew what they were getting and had a central committee to appeal to.  That is why IRC and other newer systems work well.  
 

yes owners will adjust and play with their boats.  But at least with systems like IRC, you are not held hostage to the moods of the wankers running the local system.  

Is there type forming? Yes. However, IRC also protects the core of their clients which are the older cruisers sailed by mom and pop. So, if there are enough boats to make type formed divisions, the bitching will be less.  
 

personally? I think PHRF needs to be National. Take away the corruption factor at the local level. Have good turn around service and email the new certificates straight to the owner.  Give owners a way to “What If?” as they start to look at going to out of region regattas. Give owners a way to see how other boat owners with similar boats are setting up. Oh, sorry. This is IRC. 

 

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8 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

That is way too much work (and $$$) to race a J35.

Yes and no.  After ordering a CT Sprit for a 45ft boat and having it break with the first use? I decided to go professional. And I do not intend to go back to a pole for as long as I own the boat. 

41FDEE2B-6305-4D48-ABC0-69BE8631BC35.jpeg

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Is C-Sprit still around?  I couldn’t find their website anymore a couple of weeks ago...

I’m interested to know who else is making them. I know about trogear. 

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6 hours ago, Alex W said:

Is C-Sprit still around?  I couldn’t find their website anymore a couple of weeks ago...

I’m interested to know who else is making them. I know about trogear. 

I think I was their last customer?! 
 

I’m Thinking it went like this?  Hey boys! We’re going bust. Let’s get this last order to the Philippines out and then split! 

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20 hours ago, George Hackett said:

I think PHRF needs to be National.

Not gonna happen.  PHRF has their nationwide rating book and the differences between the same boat on different coasts is surprising.  The PHRF *mantra* is we rate boats for the local conditions of prevailing wind & sea state and rate purely on past performance in our venue assuming a well outfitted and sailed boat.  Hard to complain about that as a goal, but local politics will play out and distort ratings.  PHRF is centered on the local playpen, so be it.  If you got a beef, show up with a few seasons of results, proof your boat and crew are top notch, and maybe get a rating adjustment.

A PHRF certificate is only +-$35,  cheap chump to get into *real* racing with a somewhat accurate rating.

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2 hours ago, axolotl said:

Not gonna happen.  PHRF has their nationwide rating book and the differences between the same boat on different coasts is surprising.  The PHRF *mantra* is we rate boats for the local conditions of prevailing wind & sea state and rate purely on past performance in our venue assuming a well outfitted and sailed boat.  Hard to complain about that as a goal, but local politics will play out and distort ratings.  PHRF is centered on the local playpen, so be it.  If you got a beef, show up with a few seasons of results, proof your boat and crew are top notch, and maybe get a rating adjustment.

A PHRF certificate is only +-$35,  cheap chump to get into *real* racing with a somewhat accurate rating.

Well! If cheap and a local rating is what one wants? PYS. It is free, and open to corruption at club, regional, or national level. So this will keep the truth about sailors.  “A Happy Sailor is a Bitching Sailor!” 

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