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Foiling Technique Anarchy


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Enjoying Tom Slingsby talking minute details of technique and setup. Gets good about 10 minutes in; at ~20m he's discussing how his ideal ride height and heel going upwind involves the tip of the foil piercing the water a little bit.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Martin, I saw that one too.  My moth will be here in a few days--- have you found many decent resources on-line for sailors new to Moth sailing, I have found a couple very simple things the RYA put out, but not much else.    Lots of techno-babble about end-plate effect, foil design minutia etc but the basics aren't super well covered... I'd be interested in knowing also if you've found any good resources for where people sail.  The class website here in the USA seems to not be updated past couple years ?    Maybe you know of some other sites I can try ?

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Start with Nathan Outteridge Tutorials here: 

 Work your way though the whole series. There are also some from Chris Rashley from about the same time. Might be a few years old but still plenty here to help you with basics of moth sailing.

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9 hours ago, 1sailor said:

Martin, I saw that one too.  My moth will be here in a few days--- have you found many decent resources on-line for sailors new to Moth sailing, I have found a couple very simple things the RYA put out, but not much else.    Lots of techno-babble about end-plate effect, foil design minutia etc but the basics aren't super well covered... I'd be interested in knowing also if you've found any good resources for where people sail.  The class website here in the USA seems to not be updated past couple years ?    Maybe you know of some other sites I can try ?

There's more activity on the Facebook groups than the website.

Here's the USA page:  https://www.facebook.com/USMothClass/?__tn__=%2Cd%2CP-R&eid=ARCkM0PS7v8tdJp8SvLayKkmrTNXXNEKehyj8ak0tXGmQuNX3SLdsLUZR0CQMXh3U6PlHIjPDZ_2vYGM

And the West Coast page is especially active: https://www.facebook.com/groups/694829203913174/

 

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On 4/29/2020 at 8:04 PM, martin 'hoff said:

Enjoying Tom Slingsby talking minute details of technique and setup. Gets good about 10 minutes in; at ~20m he's discussing how his ideal ride height and heel going upwind involves the tip of the foil piercing the water a little bit.

 

Really interesting, amazing speeds upwind, he talks about his low fast mode upwind being 25 to 26 knots!!!

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9 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Really interesting, amazing speeds upwind, he talks about his low fast mode upwind being 25 to 26 knots!!!

Tom was unreal in perth. I lined uo close to him just once, and I could not believe the speed.

That being said, everybody was faster in perth than real life, with the superflat big breeze. At rhe end of the event in the big stuff I was constantly on the 17-18 up, which is at least a knot more than I normally do.

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23 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Really interesting, amazing speeds upwind, he talks about his low fast mode upwind being 25 to 26 knots!!!

He says he's changing he pitch of the boat when changing modes. (@55 minutes) What's the reason of sailing more bow up in low mode compared to high mode?

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Are you sure thats what he said. The term "bow down" means sail further off the wind in all race boats. Only foilers literally have the option of vertically lowering the bow and reducing angle of attack on the main foil. I suspect Tom meant sailing wider angles upwind.

But lowering the bow with slightly more rudder foil lift will reduce the angle of attach of the main foil. As you go faster without changing settings the foil provide more lift than teh mass of the boat and the boat wil rise. Normally the wand will rop a little and raise the flap until lift is reduced and equilibrium achieved. At some point the flap will be raised above optimum, causing excess drag, at which point it is better to sail with the foil at lower AoA and slightly more flap. Very few moths have the facility to tilt the centreboard and change the angle of attack relative to the hull, so the normal way to adjust it is to change the rudder lift. For boats set up with generous AoA set up for example early take off in lighter winds, then tilting the bow down when going faster downwind is normal practice. AMAC is notorious for how much bow down he uses.

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2 hours ago, barney said:

He says he's changing he pitch of the boat when changing modes. (@55 minutes) What's the reason of sailing more bow up in low mode compared to high mode?

I think it is relative, cause if you go faster with same rudder settings normally in most moths the bow goes down a bit. So I think he reduces rudder lift before going low and fast to counterbalance the effect and keep bow stable. Same as what most people do at the upwind mark before the bearaway.

Then I agree with phil that it makes sense to keep slightly more bow down when going fast, or at least this has always been amac's theory

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There are different options.

Luka and Dave from StG are not slow and they set their boats up with very little foil angle relative to the hull. So for take off and light upwind sailing they use a lot of flap to get higher camber and an effective angle of attack. Even in more wind when the boat is going fast upwind they might still have some down flap. So at the top mark they reduce rudder lift and raise the bow. This allows the wand to drop further, raising the flap, and so the foil has less effective camber and less drag. Dave sails with no bowsprit and a very vertical wand, and lots of forward flick to pull the boat down when needed.

The opposite to AMAC, different set up, different philosophy but still effective.

The Exocet system is very effective but I have not studied enough of them to comment on its usage.

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Great video and really interesting. Got a bit confusing there with Slingers using bow up and down literally about boat pitch and Rob saying bow down as in going low! I think what he said is when he wants to go bow down, he changes the rudder lift to allow the bow to come up and when he wants to sail high, he sets the boat up for bow down......:unsure: 

What's amazing to me is that he is talking about 5 knots difference between upwind modes. 18-23 knots. That makes it unbelievably complex tactically and must give him a big advantage because of his experience of thinking it through at such high speeds. How much easier is it for him to come down from F50 speeds to the Moth, rather than say Tom Burton moving up from the Laser.

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19 hours ago, Phil S said:

There are different options.

Luka and Dave from StG are not slow and they set their boats up with very little foil angle relative to the hull. So for take off and light upwind sailing they use a lot of flap to get higher camber and an effective angle of attack. Even in more wind when the boat is going fast upwind they might still have some down flap. So at the top mark they reduce rudder lift and raise the bow. This allows the wand to drop further, raising the flap, and so the foil has less effective camber and less drag. Dave sails with no bowsprit and a very vertical wand, and lots of forward flick to pull the boat down when needed.

The opposite to AMAC, different set up, different philosophy but still effective.

The Exocet system is very effective but I have not studied enough of them to comment on its usage.

Okay, this actually makes sense. Wasn't really sure about the other option couse it is not how my boat is behaving. I've been using the AMAC setup, with relatively higher AOA on the main foil so I always have to add more lift on the rudder to keep the bow down going downhill. 

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19 hours ago, 17mika said:

I think it is relative, cause if you go faster with same rudder settings normally in most moths the bow goes down a bit. So I think he reduces rudder lift before going low and fast to counterbalance the effect and keep bow stable. Same as what most people do at the upwind mark before the bearaway.

Right, thanks! Your boat must be closer to Tom's setup then.

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