Jump to content

First Effective Treatment Imminent


Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Miffy said:

Unlike you I have skin in the game and every night when my partner gets home from the hospital and we have dinner and go to bed we wonder if we’re covid positive. 
 

keep making up shit about the best option - it isn’t even in the front lines of treatment. Your bullshit just keeps extending the timeline as if you can’t find 300 people to administer a totally magic effective treatment that if it actually worked would be all over the NIH briefings. 

I wash 21 masks a week. so please pretty please tell me what basic biological research background you have you dishonest prick. You’ve been claiming bullshit form day one. Pretending mesoblast is some small startup when it is a massively leveraged overcapitalized unicorn. 

They are conducting a propper double blind placebo controlled anti-sham trail. You can't just pull these cells out of a box and give them to the first 300 people that walk through the door and have a result 3 days later, they are cryogeneically frozen, need cryogenic tansport overseas to the treatment hospitals, need trained stemcell doctors on hand to follow the unthaw and delivery process, need screening to ensure patients meet the treatment critera and then permission from  the patients or their family if they are sedated to be in the trial - which excludes them from receiveing some other forms of treatments - then you need to follow them up weekly with tests, and it's months before saying with statistical significance they do what they say they do and have no side effects. There ain't no rushing it or you end up in the scenario we currently have, with flashy headlines that are either bullshit or half the story.

My forecast for the results is still mid July, hasn't changed - that's my opinion.... any day now. If anything the other results released on Covid patients being treated with MSC's in the meantime have strengthened my view that this will be the best treatment available. There is no making up shit here, wait for the phase 3 trial results to come out from the NIH who are running the trial,  then make your own mind up instead of sprouting your own bullshit like their cells are "non specifiec" stem cells. They are the exact type of stem cells that are needed to reduce cytokine storm that is causing the damage, and they have allready proven clinically to do exactly this in graft verses host disease. The writing is on the wall, along with all the treatment evidence to date so to speak. Wait for the results and of course I could be wrong and somehow they may not work, but stuff me EVERY use I have seen recorded for MSC's treating COVID patients has resulted in the same improved mortality with no side effects. These are multiple uses from multiple companies at multiple sites - all reporting the same thing.

I also noted - a bunch of US Insurance companies, including a very large one -  has now just decided to list the company's cell therapy in it's coverage, and in one case it was covered for off label use?  Doesn't sound like the type of thing an insurance company would pro-actively approve - based on your assesement and your evidence that it's all bullshit.

 

Stem cell therapy is going to save a LOT of lives shortly!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 569
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The “little” company is publicly traded on NYSE and has a capitalization in excess of 6 billion and sort of has a lengthy history of phase 2/3 trials that peters out.  what I’m saying is... a lot

Can I buy this stock using the Hydroxychloroquine futures I bought a few weeks ago? The future contracts are printed on super high quality paper so should be worth something.

There are dozens of multi-billion dollar ethical and bio-technical pharmaceutical companies in the world with thousands of researchers and physicians working for them with decades of experience, but r

Posted Images

11 hours ago, dachopper said:

Stem cells have the best reported response so far against covid -19 of all treatments, with out the nasty side effects of Antibodies, immune suppressants, clot suppressants, attenuated live virus vaccines. 

How deep are you personally into this stock market gambit? Just so we know how much praise or ridicule to heap on in a few days. Six figures?

I still hope for the best. But I'm thinking that the best will be some momentary good news. A big stock price bump. But a few days later, after a great amount of trading, the reality of stem cell difficulties will re-emerge and there will be great investor disappointment. Mesoblast will retreat to whatever cave they live in until the next opportunity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like how he copied and pasted my list of random possible remedies to make the claim that stem cells are better - it sure validates that he isn’t looking at any real data but just building more shit. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here you go Miffy some Data released on the Spanish trial that was done way back in April....but has taken 3 months to come out in detail - much to your disbelief.

These patients had been given, and failed to improve with the best standards of care. After treatment the results speak for themselves. Have a read and decide for yourself.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30198-X/fulltext

 

I've never suggested to buy shares in Mesoblast, I just think their product is going to work. If it  works - I think there will be many other stem cell companies that have similarly effective  options, but from what I have researched at least for the FDA in the US it appears Mesoblast will get phase 3 data on stem cells vs Covid First. Which also means if it doesn't work, then I would place serious doubt on any other MSC phase 3 trials working for COVID either. But for the time being with access programs like the spanish one above being repeated in China, New York, Israel and elsewhere with the same results - earlier improvement and a reduction in mortality along with zero side effects, evidence is already pointing towards more chance of success than failure.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

lol do you even read your own google researches? This is pre-phase 2 proof of concept. If this this your idea of “imminence” it is no wonder your April claim is getting kicked to 2022. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Looks like Moderna might get there first.......

No way.

Mesoblast is half way through expected 4 month enrollment of phase 3, with the first 30% look due any day now.

Moderna have not even started their trial, but says there phase 3 is expected to be completed October 2022 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and needs 30,000 people.

 

Unless Moderna are planning to deliberately infect the 30,000 trial subjects immediately, then the only way to test efficacy is through exposure time, ie there probably is no cutting that 2022 date short. 

 

..... Also

 

More than half the participants experienced mild or moderate side effects.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dachopper said:

No way.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and needs 30,000 people.

 

I say no problemo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moderna just has to hold a few of them college COVID parties in Alabammy or Floriduh.  Those krazy kollege kids seem hell bent on acquiring it.

Maybe offer a case of beer to whoever gets it as an additional incentive.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/14/2020 at 1:11 AM, dachopper said:

Unlike you I have skin in the game and every night when my partner gets home from the hospital and we have dinner and go to bed we wonder if we’re covid positive

Bit narrow minded buddy, we all got skin in the game.

Why you so negative about a potential therapy? Let alone one that did better in its first trial than anything else so far that I can find - feel free to show me something better.

With all due respect to your wife's hard work, whatever they are doing at the hospitals isn't really working is it, else we all, not just you, wouldn't be so concerned about catching the little bug.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Result is getting very close now, a doctor from one of the hospitals involved said he had managed to enroll 30 patients out of the 300 since May 4th. There are 14 other hospitals involved in the trial, so stands to reason that mid July is about right for the critical 30% futility / efficacy review. Fingers crossed !

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, BOI Guy said:

Bit narrow minded buddy, we all got skin in the game.

Why you so negative about a potential therapy? Let alone one that did better in its first trial than anything else so far that I can find - feel free to show me something better.

With all due respect to your wife's hard work, whatever they are doing at the hospitals isn't really working is it, else we all, not just you, wouldn't be so concerned about catching the little bug.

Read the thread from the beginning - it is an over leveraged pharm scam taking advantage of a global pandemic.

If you follow the initial claims - the duration, the number of times it has been "imminent" - then repeatedly extended BECAUSE SO CLOSE - with no actual data, selective reading of ancillary pre-publication papers? If you don't see it, I guess you don't see it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

"over leveraged pharm scam"

 

You are a joke Miffy.

 

For anyone interested in knowing what they have actually done, their results and product, this is the best clip I found that explains the " scam " as Miffy calls it

It's 5 years old but still relevant,  product C is now approved and sold in Japan, about to be approved as the primary treatment for agvhd  in the USA by September.

These guys know what they are doing. Enough  said - results any day now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/10/2020 at 9:37 AM, dachopper said:

I've been doing some research on the potential ways out of this lockdown mess and back to normality, and discovered the little Aussie company that could ( Mesoblast ) - are in the middle of a US trial that looks like it's as close to a guaranteed done deal in reducing Covid caused deaths as you can get before a trial end date. They have a treatment of cells that they were in the final  stages of getting approved for use in the USA targeting steroid refractive Graft verses Host disease - which there is no treatment for, and has all ready shown fantastic results ( GVHD is where your own immune system attacks / kills you after receiving a transplant. Steroids are the only treatment but they do not work in about 40% of cases   ). 

As it turns out - the main killing mechanism they observe from Covid , appears to be the Hyper immune response, and the body killing itself also ( cytokine storm ).

So far they have treated 12 people on compassionate grounds who were seriously ill, on ventilators, some with multiple organ failure, some on ventilators for 2 weeks solid prior to being treated, and had a recovery rate of 83% or 10 / 12 people.. The recovery rate in the hospital during that same period for ventilated patients was under 12% ( 88% died ).

They are now about 1 week into the final trial that is necessary to prove that the treatment works, as a proper medical trial with patients getting treated with maximum care standard + either placebo or the cells. The trial has a primary endpoint of survival at 30 days, and also at 7 and 14 days along with other measurements. 33% of the way through the trial, if it is observed that the treatment is overwhelming effective ( which is expected by the compassionate use and other data ) - Then the FDA can approve immediate treatment before the trial has completed.

What is interesting is that Mesoblast by co-incidence were already ramping up production of the cells massively in preparation of their US product launch Ryoncil, and they have stated that they are in a good position to be capable of treating as many critical patents as is needed.

They also have some different cells that are completing their last phase 3 trial next month for lower back pain ( disc regeneration ) / and heart failure which also both look like they are primed for excellent results. 

 

If they show with the large trial what they did with the 12 critically ill patients, then we are going to be reducing COVID deaths to a level lower than seasonal Flu.... Also the product can treat seasonal Flu aswell..... Fingers crossed we here good news by the end of the month. or some time in June.  


Your own words my dude - your own words. "Little Aussie company that could" trading on NYSE.

"Primary end point of survival at 30 days, and also at 7 and 14 days along with other measurements. 33% of the way through the trial."

That was in May. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

judging from the nature of chopper's posts he has been averaging down and is starting to get desperate

Also really trustworthy practice of copying and pasting from somewhere (obvious due to formatting inconsistencies) without ever revealing the context & where it was from; then when pushed, it is some random paper googled that 1) doesn't specific address the challenge at hand 2) prepublication. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, furr_ball said:

mid july.......

what exactly is mid July?

imminent.....

what exactly is imminent?

 

discuss..

Mid July was 5 days ago, so any random day after that I am expecting some news.

There is no real data on how the trial recruitment has been going apart from the company saying they expected it would take 3 - 4 months to enroll the full 300 patients - which they said in May after treating the first patient.

They need a minimum of 90 patients to have records 30 days after treatment before the DMC will check for futility or efficacy, and we would get some kind of update.

Given we are half way past the 3 - 4 months to full recruitment guess by the company, it's more than likely over 90 have been recruited and now we are waiting until the 30th day follow up of the 90th patient.

Imminent means about to happen

If - tomorrow they get results back showing overwhelming efficacy, the trial will be stopped, the patients recieving placebo will be offered the actual therapy, and the FDA would approve the therapy for use followed by insurers including it on certain schemes.

 

Nobody can say when exactly, but they are definately in the window for a result update and most likely will be the first update from a stem cell phase 3 trial in the USA for COVID ARDS. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, dfw_sailor said:

In other words,  nothing new.  Don't forget in most cases the results are it didn't work,  or didn't work enough.

Most drugs and most cases agreed. The initial results from the EAP were fantastic for this therapy however. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The window of opportunity is closing fast…

Oxford coronavirus vaccine triggers immune response, trial shows

Hopes for a vaccine to address the global spread of coronavirus have been raised after Oxford University’s experimental version was revealed to be safe and to generate a strong immune response in the people who volunteered to help trial it.

Seems it's now in phase 3. Elsewhere it's reported that the first million doses could be ready by the end of September, with priority for healthcare workers. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They're going for a 2-dose regimen, which means they'll have to manufacture ~15,000,000,000 doses to put this thing to rest. Yeah, I know, not quite that much: ~70% herd immunity threshold, antivaxers, etc, etc, but the scale of the manufacturing and distribution and dosing and follow-up dosing problem is still in the ten billion range.

Even if they get a million doses out in September, and even if all the other vaccine trials are successful, we're still going to be dealing with this for years. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, IStream said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They're going for a 2-dose regimen, which means they'll have to manufacture ~15,000,000,000 doses to put this thing to rest. Yeah, I know, not quite that much: ~70% herd immunity threshold, antivaxers, etc, etc, but the scale of the manufacturing and distribution and dosing and follow-up dosing problem is still in the ten billion range.

Even if they get a million doses out in September, and even if all the other vaccine trials are successful, we're still going to be dealing with this for years. 

Agreed.... and even if vaccines work, they do have side effects which stop certain people from receiving them, and they are not guaranteed either, 70% effective would be a good result by the end of this year ( if that is even possible ).

On another note, the FDA has scheduled mesoblasts Therapy Ryoncil which is the one they are using for the Covid trial - for it's ADCOM on 13th August. That is where all the specialists/professors / doctors etc from around the US can look at the results and comment to the FDA on concerns or thoughts they may have on how effective it is. It may influence the FDA decision to authorize the Therapy which is scheduled by 30 September 20.

As soon as it is authorized, it will be available for doctors to prescribe for off label use for COVID ARDS should they want to do that.   

Keep an eye on the major US insurance policy's because if they start including coverage for off label use of Ryoncil - they believe it's worth paying for - it ain't cheap!

 

I think by the end of September - This mesoblast trial should have 100% completion of all primary endpoints plus most of the 60 day endpoints also - if it is not stopped earlier than that.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Ryoncil's gonna move the needle. Any cell-based therapy is necessarily niche. There's just no way to scale production in any reasonable time-frame, not to mention unforgiving cold chain requirements during distribution. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, IStream said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They're going for a 2-dose regimen, which means they'll have to manufacture ~15,000,000,000 doses to put this thing to rest. Yeah, I know, not quite that much: ~70% herd immunity threshold, antivaxers, etc, etc, but the scale of the manufacturing and distribution and dosing and follow-up dosing problem is still in the ten billion range.

Even if they get a million doses out in September, and even if all the other vaccine trials are successful, we're still going to be dealing with this for years. 

Do you think the world, especially the USA, has lost some "get 'er done" spirit. Look at what happened in WW2: The production of hundreds of complex aircraft within months. Somehow the entire supply chain, from radios to rivets,  was able to be instantly switched on. Seems like today just finding the little bottles for a vaccine would stymie the mighty industrial base. It's going to be sad when the vaccine is ready and waiting but 150,000,000,000 doses are held up for labels to be printed.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Do you think the world, especially the USA, has lost some "get 'er done" spirit. Look at what happened in WW2: The production of hundreds of complex aircraft within months. Somehow the entire supply chain, from radios to rivets,  was able to be instantly switched on. 

In 5 months the USA still doesn't have nearly enough N95 masks.  Trump and Jared couldn't figure out how to do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Do you think the world, especially the USA, has lost some "get 'er done" spirit. Look at what happened in WW2: The production of hundreds of complex aircraft within months. Somehow the entire supply chain, from radios to rivets,  was able to be instantly switched on. Seems like today just finding the little bottles for a vaccine would stymie the mighty industrial base. It's going to be sad when the vaccine is ready and waiting but 150,000,000,000 doses are held up for labels to be printed.

There’s no spirit - the “getting it done” was always made possible by relying on expertise. Logistics planners. Designers who were wise enough to recognize mass production required public investment and education. 
 

We have worse than no one at the helm - he have a drama queen who steers towards icebergs for ratings. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Miffy said:

We have worse than no one at the helm - he have a drama queen who steers towards icebergs for ratings. 

That is much of the problem. There are likely plenty of bottle and label makers available. But nobody has asked. Like the N95 masks. Nobody asked, nobody hit the highways to organize. Nobody in power even had a motivating speech to rally the public into action. To do so would be to admit there is a problem.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, El Boracho said:

That is much of the problem. There are likely plenty of bottle and label makers available. But nobody has asked. Like the N95 masks. Nobody asked, nobody hit the highways to organize. Nobody in power even had a motivating speech to rally the public into action. To do so would be to admit there is a problem.

Just look at what Vietnam and Taiwan did in January re communicating with local industry and manufacturers. 
 

Most industry folks are still human at heart and if you provide some assurance that scaling up risks aren’t going to be exclusively their burden - they will ramp up. 
 

This admin is more like... what’s the profit angle- kind of like the pump and dump ahole. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Results At baseline all patients with COVID-19 in the treatment group (n=86) and control group (n=86) had symptoms of CSS and faced acute respiratory failure. Treated patients had 79% higher likelihood on reaching the primary outcome (HR: 1.8; 95% CI 1.2 to 2.7) (7 days earlier), 65% less mortality (HR: 0.35; 95% CI 0.19 to 0.65) and 71% less invasive mechanical ventilation (HR: 0.29; 95% CI 0.14 to 0.65). Treatment effects remained constant in confounding and sensitivity analyses.

Conclusions A strategy involving a course of high-dose methylprednisolone, followed by tocilizumab if needed, may accelerate respiratory recovery, lower hospital mortality and reduce the likelihood of invasive mechanical ventilation in COVID-19-associated CSS.

https://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2020/07/20/annrheumdis-2020-218479

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IStream said:

I don't think Ryoncil's gonna move the needle. Any cell-based therapy is necessarily niche. There's just no way to scale production in any reasonable time-frame, not to mention unforgiving cold chain requirements during distribution

It's more of a challenge for Vaccines or first line therapies that need to be given to most of the population... but this treatment is only given to the sickest of patients to get them out off ventilators and improve recovery time. The company raised 100 million a few months ago to do exactly that - to ramp up and increase production. They already had plans in place to commence supply starting September 30, so both the demand and the supply mismatch will not be as bad as most people think.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dachopper said:

It's more of a challenge for Vaccines or first line therapies that need to be given to most of the population... but this treatment is only given to the sickest of patients to get them out off ventilators and improve recovery time. The company raised 100 million a few months ago to do exactly that - to ramp up and increase production. They already had plans in place to commence supply starting September 30, so both the demand and the supply mismatch will not be as bad as most people think.

 

 

 

Sorry, didn't realize it was intended as a last-line defense.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Do you think the world, especially the USA, has lost some "get 'er done" spirit. Look at what happened in WW2: The production of hundreds of complex aircraft within months. Somehow the entire supply chain, from radios to rivets,  was able to be instantly switched on. Seems like today just finding the little bottles for a vaccine would stymie the mighty industrial base. It's going to be sad when the vaccine is ready and waiting but 150,000,000,000 doses are held up for labels to be printed.

If WWII had started in March, we'd all be speaking German and Japanese right now.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/21/2020 at 8:56 AM, IStream said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Apparently the Mesoblast therapy was going to be proven in June and approval is now pushed out to October, sometime after it is expected that the Oxford vaccine may have proved itself. There is also a Chinese vaccine in phase 3 trials. The window is closing.

On 7/21/2020 at 8:56 AM, IStream said:

They're going for a 2-dose regimen, which means they'll have to manufacture ~15,000,000,000 doses to put this thing to rest. Yeah, I know, not quite that much: ~70% herd immunity threshold, antivaxers, etc, etc, but the scale of the manufacturing and distribution and dosing and follow-up dosing problem is still in the ten billion range.

Even if they get a million doses out in September, and even if all the other vaccine trials are successful, we're still going to be dealing with this for years. 

There are over 170 vaccines in development, 3 have reached phase 3 (Coronavirus vaccine tracker). There is a very good chance of an effective vaccine by the end of the year, so at the shorter end of the widely reported "12 to 18 month" timeframe from the start.

Yes, it's a massive logistical effort to produce, distribute and administer sufficient vaccine to stop the disease. But if one or more vaccines are created, it puts a massive break on the potential profitability of a treatment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, IStream said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They're going for a 2-dose regimen, which means they'll have to manufacture ~15,000,000,000 doses to put this thing to rest. Yeah, I know, not quite that much: ~70% herd immunity threshold, antivaxers, etc, etc, but the scale of the manufacturing and distribution and dosing and follow-up dosing problem is still in the ten billion range.

Even if they get a million doses out in September, and even if all the other vaccine trials are successful, we're still going to be dealing with this for years. 

There are four leading contenders for the vaccine but over 170 in development. The odds are in favor of finding at least one vaccine that is effective. All the leading contenders are positing that the vaccine will be a 2 dose regimen.

However even a 50% immunity rate will defeat the disease quite quickly if combined with current social distancing and masks.  The current infection rate within communities using masks and safety measures is only a small amount over 1.0

If you had a vaccine which halved the number of potential new hosts and brought the infection rate down to 0.6 , the disease would quickly become eradicated.

100 people would make 60 sick. 60 people would make 36 people sick. 36 people would make 21 people sick.who would make 13 sick, 8 sick, 5 sick, 3 sick, 2 sick, 1 sick....... 10 cycles of 3 days + 14 days of occasional cases and prompt track, trace and isolate. All done in about 1-2 months.  That is with a 50% effective vaccine.  A 75% effective vaccine would crush it.

The key is (1) Getting enough doses in as short a period of time

                   (2) Getting those doses to the right hot spots.

 

Moderna is expecting to produce somewhere close to 500 million a year. My best guess is that whoever arrives first will double that . and my second educated guess is that there will be 2 vaccines. So lets expect 1 billion doses per year or close to 100 million per month. The hardest part will be identifying the hot spots /gathering sites.  Colleges and universities might be good place to start. Plenty of other locations which would dramatically shut down spread..  Round the world cruising sailors will probably not be a priority :)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, RobG said:

Apparently the Mesoblast therapy was going to be proven in June and approval is now pushed out to October, sometime after it is expected that the Oxford vaccine may have proved itself. There is also a Chinese vaccine in phase 3 trials. The window is closing.

There are over 170 vaccines in development, 3 have reached phase 3 (Coronavirus vaccine tracker). There is a very good chance of an effective vaccine by the end of the year, so at the shorter end of the widely reported "12 to 18 month" timeframe from the start.

Yes, it's a massive logistical effort to produce, distribute and administer sufficient vaccine to stop the disease. But if one or more vaccines are created, it puts a massive break on the potential profitability of a treatment.

treatment will also be valuable and will likely arrive earlier or at least at same time of vaccines.

Mesoblast does not look to me like a leading contender. Its a long way away. I think that existing antivirals are showing some promise combined with more knowledgeable protocols. You have to remember that when we started in March, we had limited knowledge of what to do as patients started pouring in through the swing doors.  What w elearnt here in the North East we have passed on to Hospitals in the sun belt.  Two anti-virals seem to have improved mortality rate. There are more being tried. The japanese have done really well with transfusions to prevent cyk events but that is labor intensive and expensive as hell. Now I know there is no price on a life, but we did not have the gear and frankly for a while we were overwhelmed. But my point is that we are developing protocols that improve survival and as long as we flatten the curve and keep ICUs at lower levels of occupancy , the doctors can save lives.......so  (and you know I was going to say this again) .....everyone can do their part and WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC.

Wearing masks does more than anything to help the healthcare workers save lives.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

There are four leading contenders for the vaccine but over 170 in development. The odds are in favor of finding at least one vaccine that is effective. All the leading contenders are positing that the vaccine will be a 2 dose regimen.

However even a 50% immunity rate will defeat the disease quite quickly if combined with current social distancing and masks.  The current infection rate within communities using masks and safety measures is only a small amount over 1.0

If you had a vaccine which halved the number of potential new hosts and brought the infection rate down to 0.6 , the disease would quickly become eradicated.

100 people would make 60 sick. 60 people would make 36 people sick. 36 people would make 21 people sick.who would make 13 sick, 8 sick, 5 sick, 3 sick, 2 sick, 1 sick....... 10 cycles of 3 days + 14 days of occasional cases and prompt track, trace and isolate. All done in about 1-2 months.  That is with a 50% effective vaccine.  A 75% effective vaccine would crush it.

The key is (1) Getting enough doses in as short a period of time

                   (2) Getting those doses to the right hot spots.

 

Moderna is expecting to produce somewhere close to 500 million a year. My best guess is that whoever arrives first will double that . and my second educated guess is that there will be 2 vaccines. So lets expect 1 billion doses per year or close to 100 million per month. The hardest part will be identifying the hot spots /gathering sites.  Colleges and universities might be good place to start. Plenty of other locations which would dramatically shut down spread..  Round the world cruising sailors will probably not be a priority :)

 

Moderna's "vaccine" is likely to be the quickest to get distributed. It's easier and quicker to make.

The Oxford vaccine use an inert chimpanzee virus. Its not as simple as Moderna's.

I hope both are effective and do their part.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Moderna's "vaccine" is likely to be the quickest to get distributed. It's easier and quicker to make.

The Oxford vaccine use an inert chimpanzee virus. Its not as simple as Moderna's.

I hope both are effective and do their part.

 

There is lots of hype around vaccines, but I think they are generally years away from being proven. Moderna's phase 3 trial starting this month has the following primary outcomes :

 

Primary Outcome Measures  :
  1. Number of Participants with a First Occurrence of COVID-19 Starting 14 Days after Second Dose of mRNA-1273 [ Time Frame: Day 29 (second dose) up to Day 759 (2 years after second dose) ]
  2. Number of Participants with Adverse Events (AEs) or Medically Attended AEs (MAAEs) Leading to Withdrawal [ Time Frame: Up to Day 759 (2 years after second dose) ]
  3. Number of Participants with Solicited Local and Systemic Adverse Reactions (ARs) [ Time Frame: Up to Day 8 (7 days after first dose) and up to Day 36 (7 days after second dose) ]
  4. Number of Participants with Unsolicited AEs [ Time Frame: Up to Day 57 (28 days after each dose) ]


Given that they are primary outcomes, it will be 2 years.... ie October 2022 before Moderna's product is actually proven effective and safe and allowed to be used because some of the end points are at 2 years. 

The big problem with getting vaccines approved - unless they inject the candidates with actual COVID-19, they need to prove statistically with very large numbers of people treated and likely exposed to the virus over very long time periods, which is why a proven vaccine is going to be a very long long time away, unlike the meosblast or other treatments which are against people who actually have the virus and can be proven in a smaller group a lot quicker. 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

treatment will also be valuable and will likely arrive earlier or at least at same time of vaccines.

Mesoblast does not look to me like a leading contender. Its a long way away. I think that existing antivirals are showing some promise combined with more knowledgeable protocols. You have to remember that when we started in March, we had limited knowledge of what to do as patients started pouring in through the swing doors.  What w elearnt here in the North East we have passed on to Hospitals in the sun belt.  Two anti-virals seem to have improved mortality rate. There are more being tried. The japanese have done really well with transfusions to prevent cyk events but that is labor intensive and expensive as hell. Now I know there is no price on a life, but we did not have the gear and frankly for a while we were overwhelmed. But my point is that we are developing protocols that improve survival and as long as we flatten the curve and keep ICUs at lower levels of occupancy , the doctors can save lives.......so  (and you know I was going to say this again) .....everyone can do their part and WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC.

Wearing masks does more than anything to help the healthcare workers save lives.

Agreed, I also think 100% we will get an effective treatment long before any proven vaccine.

Depends what you think a long way away is, my guess is any day now the trial may be halted for efficacy and they will get approval from the phase 3 data to date. Even if it's not halted the trial primary end points are forecast to be completed by the end of September ( 2 months away ) - which happens to also be around the products Prescription Drug User Fee Act date. The benefits I can see for the MSB product is that it is already proven to work in AGvHD against Cytokine storm which is one of the main contributors to ARDS and deaths in Covid-19 patients, they have no side effects, they promote re-generation, and they can be scaled up massively and are "off the shelf" with a single donor providing 8000 - 10,000 allogenic treatment doses. The implications are obviously that if this product reduces ARDS deaths for Covid, it will probably reduce all cause ARDS  deaths including pnemonia, the yearly FLU etc..maybe Sepsis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, dachopper said:

 

There is lots of hype around vaccines, but I think they are generally years away from being proven. Moderna's phase 3 trial starting this month has the following primary outcomes :

 

Primary Outcome Measures  :
  1. Number of Participants with a First Occurrence of COVID-19 Starting 14 Days after Second Dose of mRNA-1273 [ Time Frame: Day 29 (second dose) up to Day 759 (2 years after second dose) ]
  2. Number of Participants with Adverse Events (AEs) or Medically Attended AEs (MAAEs) Leading to Withdrawal [ Time Frame: Up to Day 759 (2 years after second dose) ]
  3. Number of Participants with Solicited Local and Systemic Adverse Reactions (ARs) [ Time Frame: Up to Day 8 (7 days after first dose) and up to Day 36 (7 days after second dose) ]
  4. Number of Participants with Unsolicited AEs [ Time Frame: Up to Day 57 (28 days after each dose) ]


Given that they are primary outcomes, it will be 2 years.... ie October 2022 before Moderna's product is actually proven effective and safe and allowed to be used because some of the end points are at 2 years. 

The big problem with getting vaccines approved - unless they inject the candidates with actual COVID-19, they need to prove statistically with very large numbers of people treated and likely exposed to the virus over very long time periods, which is why a proven vaccine is going to be a very long long time away, unlike the meosblast or other treatments which are against people who actually have the virus and can be proven in a smaller group a lot quicker. 

 

 

 

Agreed, I also think 100% we will get an effective treatment long before any proven vaccine.

Depends what you think a long way away is, my guess is any day now the trial may be halted for efficacy and they will get approval from the phase 3 data to date. Even if it's not halted the trial primary end points are forecast to be completed by the end of September ( 2 months away ) - which happens to also be around the products Prescription Drug User Fee Act date. The benefits I can see for the MSB product is that it is already proven to work in AGvHD against Cytokine storm which is one of the main contributors to ARDS and deaths in Covid-19 patients, they have no side effects, they promote re-generation, and they can be scaled up massively and are "off the shelf" with a single donor providing 8000 - 10,000 allogenic treatment doses. The implications are obviously that if this product reduces ARDS deaths for Covid, it will probably reduce all cause ARDS  deaths including pnemonia, the yearly FLU etc..maybe Sepsis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A vaccine will be rushed.

It's only importance is that it's less harmful than the actual virus.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Stem cells have promised much but have mostly not done a lot. Lots of promise in rehashing existing therapies though:

'Major' breakthrough in Covid-19 drug makes UK professors millionaires

Three professors at the University of Southampton school of medicine have this week made a “major breakthrough” in the treatment of coronavirus patients and become paper millionaires at the same time.

Almost two decades ago professors Ratko Djukanovic, Stephen Holgate and Donna Davies discovered that people with asthma and chronic lung disease lacked a protein called interferon beta, which helps fight off the common cold. They worked out that patients’ defences against viral infection could be boosted if the missing protein were replaced.

The study of 101 people found that patients were 79% less likely to develop a severe version of the disease and their breathlessness was also “markedly reduced”, the company said.

As soon as the clinical trial results were published, on the morning of 21 July, the shares spiked, and by lunchtime had risen by 540%. Djukanovic, aged 65, a professor of medicine, saw his 0.56% stake in the company jump in value in one day from about £300,000 to £1.6m. The 0.59% stake held by Holgate, 73, a professor of immunopharmacology, rose to £1.7m. It is understood that Davies, aged 67, the third founder and a professor of respiratory cell and molecular biology, holds a similar-sized stake through a separate company.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/22/2020 at 8:40 PM, jack_sparrow said:

The 250g initial is but the 80g methylprednisolone per day common for a bad joint injury and it is around 20 times more potent than prednisone a common athsma treatment.

A half pound of any drug is a pretty heavy dose. :-) 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Hawke said:

I'm not so sure about that.  Unless I was in the vulnerable group I wouldn't be rushing to get the vaccine.  Why would you when for the majority of people it is a mild.

Unless you have morals. Then you might care about being a asymptomatic spreader.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Hawke said:

What does that tell you?

Because Brazilians have more incentive to live?

A large number of people will not be able to take the vaccine because of contraindications and having conditions that have not been tested but are suspected issues. We could ask them about your choice. Plus all the anti-vax idiots who nevertheless have rights, I guess.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, El Boracho said:

Because Brazilians have more incentive to live?

A large number of people will not be able to take the vaccine because of contraindications and having conditions that have not been tested but are suspected issues. We could ask them about your choice. Plus all the anti-vax idiots who nevertheless have rights, I guess.

Vaccination is almost certainly going to be a precondition to travel internationally from 2021-2025. Don’t waste your time engaging with the just discovered covid last week guy complaining about living in a covid free paradise. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/21/2020 at 11:59 PM, dachopper said:

 

There is lots of hype around vaccines, but I think they are generally years away from being proven. Moderna's phase 3 trial starting this month has the following primary outcomes :

 

Primary Outcome Measures  :
  1. Number of Participants with a First Occurrence of COVID-19 Starting 14 Days after Second Dose of mRNA-1273 [ Time Frame: Day 29 (second dose) up to Day 759 (2 years after second dose) ]
  2. Number of Participants with Adverse Events (AEs) or Medically Attended AEs (MAAEs) Leading to Withdrawal [ Time Frame: Up to Day 759 (2 years after second dose) ]
  3. Number of Participants with Solicited Local and Systemic Adverse Reactions (ARs) [ Time Frame: Up to Day 8 (7 days after first dose) and up to Day 36 (7 days after second dose) ]
  4. Number of Participants with Unsolicited AEs [ Time Frame: Up to Day 57 (28 days after each dose) ]


Given that they are primary outcomes, it will be 2 years.... ie October 2022 before Moderna's product is actually proven effective and safe and allowed to be used because some of the end points are at 2 years. 

The big problem with getting vaccines approved - unless they inject the candidates with actual COVID-19, they need to prove statistically with very large numbers of people treated and likely exposed to the virus over very long time periods, which is why a proven vaccine is going to be a very long long time away, unlike the meosblast or other treatments which are against people who actually have the virus and can be proven in a smaller group a lot quicker. 

 

 

 

Agreed, I also think 100% we will get an effective treatment long before any proven vaccine.

Depends what you think a long way away is, my guess is any day now the trial may be halted for efficacy and they will get approval from the phase 3 data to date. Even if it's not halted the trial primary end points are forecast to be completed by the end of September ( 2 months away ) - which happens to also be around the products Prescription Drug User Fee Act date. The benefits I can see for the MSB product is that it is already proven to work in AGvHD against Cytokine storm which is one of the main contributors to ARDS and deaths in Covid-19 patients, they have no side effects, they promote re-generation, and they can be scaled up massively and are "off the shelf" with a single donor providing 8000 - 10,000 allogenic treatment doses. The implications are obviously that if this product reduces ARDS deaths for Covid, it will probably reduce all cause ARDS  deaths including pnemonia, the yearly FLU etc..maybe Sepsis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re Vaccine Schedule:

Moderna - I spoke with Stephane (CEO) 2 weeks ago. They believe they will be able to declare "victory or defeat" in October. Phase 3 trials have started in July (that is public knowledge) running parallel with ongoing Phase 2 .  The manufacturing facility by Lonza is nearly up and running and will be producing a very large inventory of vaccine before the vaccine is approved. If the vaccine fails then the US Government will be out a few hundred million ...oh well!  Nothing compared to the economic cost of waiting one additional week for a vaccine.

Pfizer- They are only weeks or even days behind Moderna. Same on the production facility....possibly even further ahead. they are going to be making the vaccine without knowing final results

Astra - Zeneca UO.    Phase 3 trials with N30,000 subjects. Their program is moving at breakneck speed. The team are working 12-14 hour days , 7 days a week.

I believe we will have a vaccine by December.First priority will be hot spots and health workers. Then the ILCA :)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

You realise a vaccine doesn't actually prevent you from being infected?

Some just argue for the sake of it. Only an idiot or troll wouldn't see that an effective vaccine significantly reduces the marketability of an effective treatment (which is what this thread is really about). Yes, a treatment will still be needed but the population that  might meed it is hugely reduced. Its biggest prospect for making money will be if it's also effective against the next novel virus (or whatever) for which there is no effective vaccine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobG said:

Some just argue for the sake of it. Only an idiot or troll wouldn't see that an effective vaccine significantly reduces the marketability of an effective treatment (which is what this thread is really about). Yes, a treatment will still be needed but the population that  might meed it is hugely reduced. Its biggest prospect for making money will be if it's also effective against the next novel virus (or whatever) for which there is no effective vaccine.

The iron lung and leg caliper market has suffered serious challenges since Salk did his thing......

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Hawke said:

would you have one of those vaccines?  

If the outcome of Phase 2 (Safety and Adverse effects) is successful, Yes of course.

I want to travel again and live a normal life without fear of CV19.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mid said:

DRAFT landscape of COVID-19 candidate vaccines –
24 July 2020

 

https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/draft-landscape-of-covid-19-candidate-vaccines

 WHO document does not record that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine  enters Phase 3 in late July. https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-early-positive-update-german

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

You realise a vaccine doesn't actually prevent you from being infected?

That is a imprecise statement and depends on what you mean by infected and depends on the different mechanisms of different vaccines.

No vaccine will prevent the virus molecules from entering your respiratory system but several of the candidates work by preventing/neutralizing the spike protein from attaching to the human cells.

Whatever the mechanism, a successful vaccine will (1) Prevent the vaccinated subject from incurring the disease and (2) Prevent the virus from reproducing and shedding.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Hawke said:

By the way a vaccine is not an effective treatment.  It is a preventative.  There is a difference.

Yes . There is an important difference between a vaccine and effective anit-virals and treatment protocols.

A treatment protocol is like putting a fire out in your house after it has started.

A vaccine is akin to preventing the fire in the first place.

Obviously It is better to prevent the fire but we still need to have fire extinguishers in the house rather than let a fire which escapes our preventive measures rage unabated.

One key point about putting out the fire after it has started, is that after the fire is out we are left with varying degrees of fire damage . We are not close to fully understanding the damage because the current focus is saving lives, and a "recovery" is considered a success. We know enough to know that there are varying degrees of longer term impacts from CV19 in some patients. We also know that treatment protocols do not succeed in every patient. The fire extinguisher does not put out every fire.

A successful vaccine is the game changer but in the meantime, improving treatment protocols and the application of anti-virals can moderate the mortality rate.

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

That is a imprecise statement and depends on what you mean by infected and depends on the different mechanisms of different vaccines.

No vaccine will prevent the virus molecules from entering your respiratory system but several of the candidates work by preventing/neutralizing the spike protein from attaching to the human cells.

Whatever the mechanism, a successful vaccine will (1) Prevent the vaccinated subject from incurring the disease and (2) Prevent the virus from reproducing and shedding.

You don't get the immune response without the infection. Even if the immune response is limited to blocking spike proteins.

Even then, the immune response doesn't always prevent minor symptoms from appearing.

In fact, part of the immune response is localised inflammation and a low grade fever.

When caused by the vaccine, they're occasionally called side effects.....

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Phase 3 trials have started in July

 

46 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

enters Phase 3 in late July.

QED

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

You don't get the immune response without the infection.

 

Sure you do.

Vaccine technologies have changed immeasurably in the last 10 years. Biotech has revolutionized how we are provoking the immune response.

The mRna vaccines are replicating the genetic code to provoke an immune response without any infection such that antibodies and T cells are produced without a viral infection of any sort.

The viral vector and dead viral vaccines are usng a form of harmless variations of the virus to provoke an immune response.  

Scientifically and medically these are very different approaches...but the end game is the same....to provoke the immune response before the live virus arrives such that if you are exposed to the virus your body destroys the virus before it has a chance to attach itself to your cells.

Eventually the vaccine destroys the disease because without hosts, it cannot spread and dies out quite quickly.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Re Vaccine Schedule:

Moderna - I spoke with Stephane (CEO) 2 weeks ago. They believe they will be able to declare "victory or defeat" in October. Phase 3 trials have started in July (that is public knowledge) running parallel with ongoing Phase 2 .  The manufacturing facility by Lonza is nearly up and running and will be producing a very large inventory of vaccine before the vaccine is approved. If the vaccine fails then the US Government will be out a few hundred million ...oh well!  Nothing compared to the economic cost of waiting one additional week for a vaccine.

Pfizer- They are only weeks or even days behind Moderna. Same on the production facility....possibly even further ahead. they are going to be making the vaccine without knowing final results

Astra - Zeneca UO.    Phase 3 trials with N30,000 subjects. Their program is moving at breakneck speed. The team are working 12-14 hour days , 7 days a week.

I believe we will have a vaccine by December.First priority will be hot spots and health workers. Then the ILCA :)

 

Look at Moderna's Primary outcomes.....!!!!

If I participated in Moderna's test and took the vaccine tomorrow, and I don't catch covid -19 by October, the vaccine works.... !

I don't know a single person that is a direct contact of me or anyone that I know that actually has it.... May as well drink a coffee every day for 2 months, and I  don't get it then coffee must be a vaccine.

There is no guarantee using those primary end points over 3 months that it works at all unless the participants are being injected with covid, or tested for antibodies which for some reason was not included as a primary outcome...... wonder why?

 

I can tell you from the hospitals in Aus, that there has been progress made in cov plasma transplants ( the blood of someone who has recovered ) that has been donated, can be injected with good effect. But it's a blood transfusion, the blood type has to match, the donor has to meet donation requirements, and you would need a near equivalent donor to treatment ration.  I don't see how anyone could get ahead of the curve , using recovered sick people's blood when the curve is going up exponentially.

 

Not long now and hopefully there will be some singing!

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Sure you do.

Vaccine technologies have changed immeasurably in the last 10 years. Biotech has revolutionized how we are provoking the immune response.

The mRna vaccines are replicating the genetic code to provoke an immune response without any infection such that antibodies and T cells are produced without a viral infection of any sort.

The viral vector and dead viral vaccines are usng a form of harmless variations of the virus to provoke an immune response.  

Scientifically and medically these are very different approaches...but the end game is the same....to provoke the immune response before the live virus arrives such that if you are exposed to the virus your body destroys the virus before it has a chance to attach itself to your cells.

Eventually the vaccine destroys the disease because without hosts, it cannot spread and dies out quite quickly.

So, without infection, to what does the immune system respond to?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

So, without infection, to what does the immune system respond to?

 

Ever had an allergy to something benign like cat dander or pollen?

The immune system doesn't just react to infected cells.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Ever had an allergy to something benign like cat dander or pollen?

The immune system doesn't just react to infected cells.

i get your point,

 

 

 

though pollen is a good example of an infecting agent.

i can live with being called a pedant.....

Link to post
Share on other sites

The pollen does nothing to you - it’s your immune system reacting. 

The idea with the new mRNA vaccine is the same as inactivated vaccine - like the flu vaccine - the immune system responds to the perceived threat without it actually threatening you with infection with a disease. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Miffy said:

The pollen does nothing to you - it’s your immune system reacting. 

The idea with the new mRNA vaccine is the same as inactivated vaccine - like the flu vaccine - the immune system responds to the perceived threat without it actually threatening you with infection with a disease. 

You don't think that an immune response to pollen is your body reacting to something? Like maybe the pollen is a trigger? And the body responds to that trigger?

 

 

I agree with your description of how an mRNA vaccine works. However what was being discussed was that having an effective vaccine doesn't stop a persom from being infected.

In this case, having a vaccine won't stop you from being infected with the Sars cov 2 virus. It should, hopefully, limit the virus turning into covid 19.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/22/2020 at 9:26 AM, EYESAILOR said:

Moderna is expecting to produce somewhere close to 500 million a year.

 

The only thing I expect from Moderna is a SEC investigation that puts the top guys in jail. On paper the entire company looks like a financial scam. The company has always been run by investment wankers. Read their Wiki page. I would be surprised if they are not the next Theranos. 
 

They have never brought a vaccine to market. In fact no company in the world has ever using similar mRNA vaccines. 
 

Why would they succeed now? More msn hours  and money do not guarantee success. 
 

My brother is a well known cardiac stem cell researcher. The entire stem industry has very little to show after many decades and billions of dollars. It’s always going to work in 5 years. But that hasn’t materialised. I’m talking about real FDA approved therapies. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hey ChopChop you sold down yet? Better hurry.

Heh. It's not whether the protocol is effective. Or trials. Or anything medical at all. The key is if there is just one more pump-and-dump opportunity for the big money to sell to the easily duped. The last one fizzled when numerous business writers complained to Meso about the ceaseless flow of breathless PR calls.

Link to post
Share on other sites

He’ll just google another random pre publication and copy paste the executive summary without reference  as evidence that it is all going well. Soon. Imminent. Fixes everything. 
 

Every statement that’s an outright lie gets excused and it keeps going. Nothing like a global pandemic to really highlight scum who view it all as opportunity to make money. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/24/2020 at 9:17 PM, Hawke said:

You are not listening.  If the vulnerable are vaccinated and protected why would I as a non-vulnerable person take the risk of taking a vaccine that has been rushed through a process in a year that normally takes 10 years?

There's a difference between breathing the air we breathe and allowing someone to inject me.

Now I'm not an anti-vaxer but I'm not willing to be a guinea pig either.  Observe how they are running vaccination trials in Brazil.  What does that tell you?

Did you get a flu shot..  Same diff..  Personally I have not as I have never really had a debilitating flu to the extent I have had to miss more than a day or so of work.   YmmV

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Did you get a flu shot..  Same diff..  Personally I have not as I have never really had a debilitating flu to the extent I have had to miss more than a day or so of work.   YmmV

"Debilitating flu" is on your bucket list? Have you thought this thru?

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Heh. It's not whether the protocol is effective. Or trials. Or anything medical at all. The key is if there is just one more pump-and-dump opportunity for the big money to sell to the easily duped. The last one fizzled when numerous business writers complained to Meso about the ceaseless flow of breathless PR calls.

AKA the Dead Cat Bounce.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

"Debilitating flu" is on your bucket list? Have you thought this thru?

And not to mention the fact that when ppl say they’ve never had debilitating flu- the truth is likely they’ve never had it because ppl around them are vaccinated and they’re not exposed to novel flu strains from their daily interactions. 
 

I’ve never had polio either. It isn’t some statement on the strength of my immune system or innate bodily constitution. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

"Debilitating flu" is on your bucket list? Have you thought this thru?

OK stop.  Really?? Never exposed??  OK........  Never had Chicken Pox ether so I got that going for me..     Obviously if there is a vaccine I will get it.  Hawk was saying he didn't want to be a guinea pig and my counter argument was that you are a guinea pig every time you get a flu shot.  (could have said it better above  :) )

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, i was out by a few weeks, must have been harder to get volunteers than first thought. Looks like the DMC will release their findings first week in September, and will have the 90th patient follow-up in mid August. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

oh.......great.....quite possibly almost reasonably definitively without question decidedly imminent then......

 

.........with thousands of cases how is it hard to get volunteers if it is such a great treatment?

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, furr_ball said:

oh.......great.....quite possibly almost reasonably definitively without question decidedly imminent then......

 

.........with thousands of cases how is it hard to get volunteers if it is such a great treatment?

millions of cases

supposedly imminent. 3/4 done!

nah - there has been no crossover because despite the propagandist's best efforts, the data speak for itself and it don't work. 

Link to post
Share on other sites