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Beer can racing - When to protest or not


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Ok here goes 

racing in Detroit nice little 6 mile jaunt around the cans we always get a little fleet compression at one of the marks with a range of cal 25s sport boats and some old IOR type boats.  It’s fun and interesting to maneuver thru with my bigger than most boat.  
the issue is their is this guy - who cut inside the Fleet on new breeze failed to give room (to me) and then says what it’s a beer can race what’s the big deal? Sort of like those guys who barge at starts .

 BTW he’s not in my class

it’s going to happen again he is the type.  


Is a protest the only remedy?

 

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My reply is for regattas I don't hesitate - protest on a foul.

For beer can, unless the foul is over the top and deserves immediate protest (collision or willfully and obviously fouling) , I prefer a quiet chat after the race for the first time. That chat includes a warning that if the sailor fouls like that again I will protest. AKA a friendly, firm but fair warning the rules are there for a reason, and without the rules it wouldn't be fun, even beer cans.

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it is better to protest at a beer can race so that either he learns the rules or finds out he can not get away with that type of nonsense. otherwise why screw up and go through the hassle at a significant event. 

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"What's the big deal" means he knew what he was doing was wrong, and you need to call him on it. How you do it is your business, but if it was me I'd ask him what happened. He might confess or he might rationalize. What to say from there is highly dependant on how it's going, but I'm probably going to be nice and guilt him by pointing out how it ruins other people's evenings and offer him a beer. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. The point has been made however, and protest him without hesitation henceforth.

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What’s the big deal with making some turns, then,  since it’s “only a beercan race” ??  If you hail protest, all he has to do is 1/ not hit anybody & cause damage and 2/turn(s).  Nobody has to go to to any protest meetings if he follows the rules. 

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Follow up:  he emailed me with the usual it’s just a race why am I getting all worked up? I responded I will protest him next time.

Today he responded with let’s be friends stuff I think he got the message.  The little talk/emails I hope works- protests are a pain.  That being said I have the red flag ready and the protest forms in the nav station.

thanks for the comments next week we will see.

 

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It has worked for me.  In my fleet two different sailors, both very nice guys, flagrantly fouled me in one race.  I had the chat with them that evening, warned them I would protest in the future. Neither one has fouled me ever since.  One of the guys was a notorious barger at the starts.  He claimed I couldn't force him up into the committee boat.  I replied, "yes I can and I will."  He quit barging after that.

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We had a boat barge us at a start though I warned him not to try it.  His dinghy outboard, hanging off stern rail, snagged our bow pulpit and dragged us both into  a third boat to leeward, causing extensive damage. Our ramming the Committee Boat at six knots might have sunk it. Rules are there to help prevent this sort of thing.   

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15 hours ago, Lucky Dog said:

Ok here goes 

racing in Detroit nice little 6 mile jaunt around the cans we always get a little fleet compression at one of the marks with a range of cal 25s sport boats and some old IOR type boats.  It’s fun and interesting to maneuver thru with my bigger than most boat.  
the issue is their is this guy - who cut inside the Fleet on new breeze failed to give room (to me) and then says what it’s a beer can race what’s the big deal? Sort of like those guys who barge at starts .

 BTW he’s not in my class

it’s going to happen again he is the type.  


Is a protest the only remedy?

 

Protest early and often.

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Dont hesitate to protest but a caveat, if you know your opposition a word with them will often work, no one wants to waste time on  petty issues in the room if its not a regatta but if they are drunks, you must and if they are cunts you must

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15 hours ago, unShirley said:

He claimed I couldn't force him up into the committee boat.  I replied, "yes I can and I will."  He quit barging after that.

I mean....in quite a few situations (most perhaps) you actually can't.......

And in those that you can, you shouldn't. You should protest rather than force a collision.

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6 hours ago, Quagers said:

I mean....in quite a few situations (most perhaps) you actually can't.......

And in those that you can, you shouldn't. You should protest rather than force a collision.

You can't force him to hit the committee boat, but you can force him to choose to tack away rather than hit it. If he then chooses to break a rule instead you're correct, the proper action is to avoid contact if possible and protest. 

If you want to avoid protest hearings for beer can races, ask your PRO to put Appendix T arbitration or (in the US) appendix V alternative penalties into the SI. 

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16 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

You can't force him to hit the committee boat, but you can force him to choose to tack away rather than hit it. If he then chooses to break a rule instead you're correct, the proper action is to avoid contact if possible and protest. 

Sure yes, but the reference to forcing someone into the C boat suggests they are committed and tacking away isn't an option. In which case, you are only in the right if you don't alter course, and even then, you shouldn't force the collision.

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1 hour ago, Quagers said:

Sure yes, but the reference to forcing someone into the C boat suggests they are committed and tacking away isn't an option. In which case, you are only in the right if you don't alter course, and even then, you shouldn't force the collision.

Yes, don't force collisions.  If I'm on PC and you force a collision, I will dsq you, whether you have rights or not.  Or if I'm fleet captain, I'm asking you to volunteer your boat for RC until the RC boat is fixed.  

Politely inform and instruct for beer can, that is my take.  Reminder that is a self policing sport of corinthians.  If the offender is a recidivict, then a few times to the room might help.  Or a former owner once said to our competitor who argued it wasn't a foul, "that is your one free card, don't ask for another".

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The rules are rules. If you had to avoid him and you felt it effected your race you should protest. There are only two reasons not to protest...

1. Your current record is 0-10 or greater in the protest room, which is probably an indication you don't know the rules as well as you think you do.

2. You would rather spend time drinking beer after the race than sitting in a protest hearing.

I personally suck in the protest room, but I'm still not afraid to unwrap the flag. The odds of it ending up in the protest room are slim. The offending boat either admits they are wrong and backs off, in which case I wrap the flag back up. The offending boat admits they are wrong and does their penalty, in which case I wrap the flag back up. Last but not least we end up at the dock with an unresolved foul. At this point I have a decision to make!

I don't subscribe to the "It's just a club race" bullshit. Just like you know you were speeding when the cop pulls you over, most people know they are breaking a rule when they bully their way in on a club race. They continue to do it right up to the time they either hit someone, or get protested.

As a side note, I've travelled up to certain clubs up in your area for regattas and am fully aware that certain sailors think there are two sets of rules. One set for club members, and one set for visitors!

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I have solved many similar issues by bringing over a few beers to the boat of the offender after the race and calmly and politely discussing my issue with them.  Asking questions of their point of view helps immensely instead of starting with a you're wrong attitude.  A little humor and goes a long way too.

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11 hours ago, Quagers said:

I mean....in quite a few situations (most perhaps) you actually can't.......

And in those that you can, you shouldn't. You should protest rather than force a collision.

I  never have actually forced anybody into the RC boat.  I was merely making a point.  Fortunately, the point was taken.

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Had wanker screaming out us this weekend for a minor infraction; we didn't see him and he didn't say shit until imminent collision.  Then of course he went ballistic with his tirade.  For next two hours every time we saw him on the course our only comment was such an asshole.  After docking said asshole came by to semi-apologize and laughed it off.  He must have had a word or two spoken to him by his crew and witnesses cuz Im certain it was not his guilt complex

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Get your head around the fact that the rules are there to prevent collisions (amongst other things). Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. Protest every time regardless and two things might happen .One, they'll keep out of your way and two, they could learn . Some people are just stupid !

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If it’s only a beer can race why is he cheating.

Mark room is there for safety. It’s not some made up rule to make the game more or less challenging. 

Beer is the currency. Buy your crew beers  if you win. Buy the winner a beer. Buy your competition a beer for making you work hard. 

Buy the other guy a beer when you fuck him over accidentally or purposely with a genuine apology. 

 


 

 

 

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5 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Had wanker screaming out us this weekend for a minor infraction; we didn't see him and he didn't say shit until imminent collision.  Then of course he went ballistic with his tirade.  For next two hours every time we saw him on the course our only comment was such an asshole.  After docking said asshole came by to semi-apologize and laughed it off.  He must have had a word or two spoken to him by his crew and witnesses cuz Im certain it was not his guilt complex

Was your issue with a Flying Scot?  Asking for a friend!

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1. Follow up with a friendly chat along with one or two boats that witnessed it.

2. Print out the rule and show him the diagram.  Tell him the rules are there to avoid collisions.

3. Keep that flag handy and make it loud for next time so it draws some attention. He may get the picture.

 

Sail Safe!

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Have run into a few of "these guys" over the years.  One in particular has a large 50' boat and known as the party boat.  Has put his boat in poor situations and before going to the room try to buy his way out with a case of beer and the "let's be friends" thing.  Problem with that method is people don't learn when they are wrong.  Got into a windward/leeward thing with him in 25+ breeze, (great breeze for him to put the bow down and roll, but tough on an S2 7.9 sailing high and feathering to keep the boat flat).  Comes rolling down on top of us.  Had 0 intention of tacking away.  I knew when he rolled us we were going to stand up in his wind shadow and our rigs would come together.   We protested, flew the flag, bore away 15 degrees to let him go.  This was a BIG regatta.  I refused the beer offer.  He took his 30% before going to the room.  Hated me pretty hard for a while and might still.  However, if you don't try to stop someone from running amuck some day someone is going to get hurt and boats will get damaged.  A beer can race is the BEST time to learn these lessons.   I've been on the receiving end my fair share and glad to learn the lessons on a small platform before screwing myself up in a big event.  Given the ego's in our sport Some people have to be told by the judges to learn when they are wrong.

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Ask him in front of a witness (or two) if he knows he broke a rule. If he says yes, protest under Rule 2 reference “Basic Principles - Sportsmanship & the Rules”. That’d give him a DNE at least 

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On 6/6/2020 at 10:40 AM, unShirley said:

It has worked for me.  In my fleet two different sailors, both very nice guys, flagrantly fouled me in one race.  I had the chat with them that evening, warned them I would protest in the future. Neither one has fouled me ever since.  One of the guys was a notorious barger at the starts.  He claimed I couldn't force him up into the committee boat.  I replied, "yes I can and I will."  He quit barging after that.

Um, you might want to reread the rules..  Committee boat = an obstruction if the boat cannot get out and avoid it.  Stop Bargers early...  Red bits are important,..  

From dave Perry..  #16

https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/dave-perrys-100-best-racing-rules-quizzes/Question

Two 25-foot boats, L (a leeward boat) and W (a windward boat), are approaching the right-hand end of the starting line, a 30-foot powerboat, to start an upwind leg. Both boats are beam reaching, with L on a course to pass one length to leeward of the race committee boat. Twenty seconds before the starting signal and when two lengths from the race committee boat, L hails, “No room! Don’t go in there!” to W. Both boats hold their courses until W is overlapped to leeward of the race committee boat. At that point L luffs and W makes contact nearly simultaneously with both L and the committee boat. There is damage to the race committee boat but not serious damage. Both boats protest each other. You are on the protest committee; how would you decide this?

Answer:

Boat L is penalized under rules 14, Avoiding Contact, and 16.1, Changing Course. The preamble to Section C, At Marks and Obstructions, states that rules 18 (mark-room) and 19 (room to pass an obstruction) do not apply “at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time the boats are approaching them to start...” Therefore the situation is governed by the rules in Sections A and B. At the time W becomes overlapped to leeward of the race committee boat, she is keeping clear of L in compliance with rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped. Rule 16.1 requires L, as a right-of-way boat, to give W room to keep clear of her when she changes her course. When L luffs, there is not room (space) for W to comply with the Part 2 rules and rule 31, Touching a Mark, due to the physical presence of the race committee boat (see the definition Room). Therefore L breaks rule 16.1. W breaks rules 11 and 31 but is exonerated under rule 21, Exoneration.

L also breaks rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and is penalized under that rule because the contact results in damage to the race committee boat. However, from the time L begins to luff, it is not possible for W to avoid contact; therefore W does not break rule 14.

Had L wanted to prevent W from passing between her and the committee boat, she should have luffed sooner while W was still able to respond to her luff.

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Frontier Justice - for the next race:

- for the barger, well before the start take the offender up head to wind and stop him from him starting at all - when he complains, you know your response "its just a beercan"

- same for the mark, just take him up to the point of stopping - and if he is ahead of you, cut the mark and take him out - again "its just a beer can race"

 

It may take 2-3 races but he will finally get it (oh and you probably didn;t want him as a friend anyway)

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56 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Makes a mockery of the self policing concept if you don’t protest & people not protesting is probably what he is banking on

To ad to this if you do protest do it properly or it won't make it past the validation stage of the hearing and he gets away clean.  Simply hail "protest" as loud as you can and get the flag up instantly! 

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22 hours ago, Irish River said:

Yes, don't force collisions.  If I'm on PC and you force a collision, I will dsq you, whether you have rights or not.  Or if I'm fleet captain, I'm asking you to volunteer your boat for RC until the RC boat is fixed.  

Granted, the appropriate thing to do with a barger is to give room and protest.

However - if you're on the committee boat you have no authority to DSQ a boat without a hearing. And if a boat with rights maintains her course and "forces" a barger into contact with the committee boat I don't think there's a rule that would allow a PC to penalize her.

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7 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Granted, the appropriate thing to do with a barger is to give room and protest.

However - if you're on the committee boat you have no authority to DSQ a boat without a hearing. And if a boat with rights maintains her course and "forces" a barger into contact with the committee boat I don't think there's a rule that would allow a PC to penalize her.

Seriously, it's right here.  For the 2nd time...  You can absolutely be protested for taking a guy into the boat.  Cites, rule#'s from above.  Linkey..  

From US SAILING Quiz # 16...

https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/dave-perrys-100-best-racing-rules-quizzes/

When L luffs, there is not room (space) for W to comply with the Part 2 rules and rule 31, Touching a Mark, due to the physical presence of the race committee boat (see the definition Room). Therefore L breaks rule 16.1. W breaks rules 11 and 31 but is exonerated under rule 21, Exoneration.

L also breaks rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and is penalized under that rule because the contact results in damage to the race committee boat. However, from the time L begins to luff, it is not possible for W to avoid contact; therefore W does not break rule 14.

Had L wanted to prevent W from passing between her and the committee boat, she should have luffed sooner while W was still able to respond to her luff.

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21 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Seriously, it's right here.  For the 2nd time...  You can absolutely be protested for taking a guy into the boat.  Cites, rule#'s from above.  Linkey..  

From US SAILING Quiz # 16...

https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/dave-perrys-100-best-racing-rules-quizzes/

When L luffs, there is not room (space) for W to comply with the Part 2 rules and rule 31, Touching a Mark, due to the physical presence of the race committee boat (see the definition Room). Therefore L breaks rule 16.1. W breaks rules 11 and 31 but is exonerated under rule 21, Exoneration.

L also breaks rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and is penalized under that rule because the contact results in damage to the race committee boat. However, from the time L begins to luff, it is not possible for W to avoid contact; therefore W does not break rule 14.

Had L wanted to prevent W from passing between her and the committee boat, she should have luffed sooner while W was still able to respond to her luff.

Yes it is right there.

If L with rights changes course when it's too late for W to bail out (as in, when they're already overlapped with the committee boat) L breaks rule 16.1 and can be protested by another boat or by the race committee (but not automatically DSQ'd without a hearing).

But if L does not change course she doesn't break any rule if the barger insists on sticking her nose in when there's no room and hits the committee boat. It's W's decision not to tack away that causes the contact, not L's maintaining course and not giving room.

Neither mark room (18) or room to pass an obstruction (19) apply at a starting mark when boats are approaching it to start (preamble, Section C).

And again to be clear, I'm not advocating driving someone into the committee boat. The better course is pretty much always to give room and protest.

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You are splitting hairs.  If the guy hits the boat, and it is found that you did not give him room, you truly fucked...  a.  Bail and protest if you are in that situation.  b.  Don't get into that situation... Lock them out early.  

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Are  you racing sailboats or not?

If you are the rules are part of the race, otherwise you are just running a Rosie Ruiz  marathon.

If your competitors are cheating it ruins it for everyone. Getting your competitors to stop cheating is important for everyone. You should try to do it in the most positive way. For a first infraction a friendly chat after the race may work. If you don’t intervene in some form you are letting down the rest of the fleet by accepting / encouraging rule breaking.

If not the protest room is a great way to teach/learn the rules. (As a junior sailor I was lucky enough to sail at a place with very experienced protest committees who would sometimes let me observe the proceedings)

If a protest is a big deal in your fleet then work with the fleet captain etc. on how to increase their legitimacy, remove the drama around them and make the process easier.

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I find in many situations folks simply think they know the rules, but what they actually know is some combination of current rules and long-ago abandoned versions. With that in mind, the friendly chat is a good starting point followed by the pain of going to the room if behaviors do not change. It's a drag losing races because someone is cheating. Beercan racing or not, it's still racing. Personally, I'm out there to improve and, ultimately, try to win.

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2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Granted, the appropriate thing to do with a barger is to give room and protest.

However - if you're on the committee boat you have no authority to DSQ a boat without a hearing. And if a boat with rights maintains her course and "forces" a barger into contact with the committee boat I don't think there's a rule that would allow a PC to penalize her.

If I am on the Protest Committee and it comes before me through a protest.... if you "force" a collision that could have been avoided, you will get a dsq if I am on the Protest Committee.  Rule 14 always applies.

Rule 14, Avoiding Contact

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room (a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and (b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

"damage"  could be as little as scratch.  

 

It is not a contact sport.

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34 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

I find in many situations folks simply think they know the rules, but what they actually know is some combination of current rules and long-ago abandoned versions. With that in mind, the friendly chat is a good starting point followed by the pain of going to the room if behaviors do not change. It's a drag losing races because someone is cheating. Beercan racing or not, it's still racing. Personally, I'm out there to improve and, ultimately, try to win.

It is a bit hard to take the command to end cheating seriously when it comes from someone with the screen name Heisenberg. 

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5 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

It is a bit hard to take the command to end cheating seriously when it comes from someone with the screen name Heisenberg. 

It was that or Stabby the Unicorn. Both seemed edgy in their own unique way.

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6 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

It is a bit hard to take the command to end cheating seriously when it comes from someone with the screen name Heisenberg. 

Are you being principled about that or is there some uncertainty? 

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15 minutes ago, Irish River said:

If I am on the Protest Committee and it comes before me through a protest.... if you "force" a collision that could have been avoided, you will get a dsq if I am on the Protest Committee.  Rule 14 always applies.

Rule 14, Avoiding Contact

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room (a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and (b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

"damage"  could be as little as scratch.  

 

It is not a contact sport.

"Damage" is not defined but guidance is given in Case 19:

Quote

CASE 19

Question: Is there a special meaning of 'damage' in the racing rules?

Answer: No. It is not possible to define damage comprehensively, but one current English dictionary says 'harm...impairing the value or usefulness of something.'

This definition suggests questions to consider. Examples are:

  • Was the current market value of any part of the boat, or of the boat as a whole, diminished?
  • Was any item of the boat or her equipment made less functional?

So I think it's safe to say that a scuff or scratch would not be ruled "damage" under RRS.

Any common applicable definition of "contact" would, I think, require physical touching. A boat that doesn't touch another boat has avoided contact and is safe from rule 14.

Given the scenario below, you say you would penalize Blue for "forcing" a collision between Green and the committee boat. With respect, here's how I expect the appeals committee would react to your decision:

  • Blue to leeward had right of way. Blue did not change course and Green had room to keep clear by heading up or tacking.
  • The boats were approaching a starting mark to start, rules 18 & 19 were not in force and Green had no entitlement to mark room or room to pass an obstruction.
  • Blue did not contact either Green or the committee boat.
  • Blue did not break any rule, and is to be reinstated in her finishing place.
  • DSQ of Green is upheld if she did not do penalty turns or if she caused damage or injury.

Again, I'm not in any way suggesting that Blue should have driven Green into the boat, only that it was within the rules for her to do so. If Green insisted on sticking it in there, the prudent thing for Blue to do would be to give room and protest. The correct (both prudent and within the rules) thing for Green to do is bail out at position 3.

barge.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Unicorns poop glitter and dung.

Mostly dung.

Don’t know about Heisenberg...I’ll find the door

 

 

Unicorns are also delicious... Heisenberg probably not so much.

Neither is necessarily an expert on the Racing Rules of Sailing, although the inherent uncertainty of location and velocity of many rules situations lends itself to Heisenberg 

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18 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

 

Again, I'm not in any way suggesting that Blue should have driven Green into the boat, only that it was within the rules for her to do so. ...

barge.jpg

TJ I think the term "driven" may be causing some confusion. It might be interpreted that you applied some forcing action. In your example above I would not say blue drove green into the committee boat. I would say blue maintained corse. I would say green drove into the committee boat.

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40 minutes ago, KC375 said:

TJ I think the term "driven" may be causing some confusion.

And this is the problem every time this issue comes up.

The keep clear and the RoW boat often have different understanding of what it means to 'drive' someone into the committee boat.

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On 6/7/2020 at 11:55 AM, unShirley said:

I  never have actually forced anybody into the RC boat.  I was merely making a point.  Fortunately, the point was taken.

Shaggy, did you see the above post?  I was bluffing and it worked.  I have never forced anybody into the committee boat and I never intend to in the future.  I would protest rather than cause a collision.  But, the art of persuasion sometimes includes artistic license.B)

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2 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

It is a bit hard to take the command to end cheating seriously when it comes from someone with the screen name Heisenberg. 

Yeah, and he sails cats. Probably.

Or not.

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

TJ I think the term "driven" may be causing some confusion. It might be interpreted that you applied some forcing action. In your example above I would not say blue drove green into the committee boat. I would say blue maintained corse. I would say green drove into the committee boat.

True. Put Blue about it boat length belwo the line at 1, she can come up and close the door until 3. If she alters course at 4 when Yellow can no longer bail out she breaks 16.1

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1 hour ago, unShirley said:

Shaggy, did you see the above post?  I was bluffing and it worked.  I have never forced anybody into the committee boat and I never intend to in the future.  I would protest rather than cause a collision.  But, the art of persuasion sometimes includes artistic license.B)

U talking to me or shirley?? and don't call me shirley...  

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

TJ I think the term "driven" may be causing some confusion. It might be interpreted that you applied some forcing action. In your example above I would not say blue drove green into the committee boat. I would say blue maintained corse. I would say green drove into the committee boat.

If you are racing I would argue that green could have pulled out at position whatever, and if you could prove that you gave room and opportunity(i know it's out) then it would be his fault, but...  as stated so eloquently by mr perry...  

L also breaks rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and is penalized under that rule because the contact results in damage to the race committee boat. However, from the time L begins to luff, it is not possible for W to avoid contact; therefore W does not break rule 14.

Had L wanted to prevent W from passing between her and the committee boat, she should have luffed sooner while W was still able to respond to her luff.

The rule is not there to stop barging, the original rule did just fine for 100ds of yrs..  The rule is there so the owner of the RC boat does not have to worry about getting t-boned at every frigging start.  There is a reason that particular rule has been in Perry's quizzes since the first time it was printed back in the early 2000's maybe?  late 90's??   In reality, if you are paying attention, yell early and often if you want the boat.  The rule addresses a very very specific situation that 90% of the time is going to be a non issue as the committee boat is the clubs and the boats are generally not so aggressive, or its the grand prix boys and the 10 MM yacht that needs protecting in the last 30 sec or so.  Or..  It's the dick that barges all the time..  Fucking protest...  Pretty easy really.  If you want the boat, set up early and own it, Don't let anyone go in there...... Then Scream and protest if someone else does..  

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46 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

True. Put Blue about it boat length belwo the line at 1, she can come up and close the door until 3. If she alters course at 4 when Yellow can no longer bail out she breaks 16.1

Simple and eloquent...  BRILLIANT!!!

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 Hey it's only a beer can race....he fouls at will....yet if he wins it a very huge accomplishment. Bet if someone fouls him, he, she or it on the final leg to the finish line it would no longer be considered "just a beer can race". 

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On 6/8/2020 at 12:13 AM, Irish River said:

Yes, don't force collisions.  If I'm on PC and you force a collision, I will dsq you, whether you have rights or not.  Or if I'm fleet captain, I'm asking you to volunteer your boat for RC until the RC boat is fixed.  

Politely inform and instruct for beer can, that is my take.  Reminder that is a self policing sport of corinthians.  If the offender is a recidivict, then a few times to the room might help.  Or a former owner once said to our competitor who argued it wasn't a foul, "that is your one free card, don't ask for another".

Sorry but if you DSQ someone who has NOT broken a rule - for example a boat maintaining their rights resulting in a 'damage-less collision' (RRS 14 (b) then you are breaking the rules and exceeding your 'authority'. 

I would also suggest that the windward boat sailed into the committee boat and not the right of way boat so i am not sure that 14 would apply. Giving room at an obstruction (Section C) doesn't apply at starting marks surrounded by navigable water so hard to see what rule he would be DSQ on - no matter how wrong we think they are we cannot go round making up rules even when morally the guy was wrong.

That said, i agree it would be very tempting to sanction him in some way but would have to be a "Club Rule" not directly related to the incident on the race course. Of course i might be wrong, I'm just expressing an opinion. It is  certainly an interesting and awkward situation and not one i have ever seen or heard of in all my years.

It would be very interesting to hear the opinion of the Word Sailing Q & A team on this. A definite puzzler.

I have been in a similar situation where 2 x 40 footers barged in with no rights and had the boat in my lee not gone down to allow me out of the way thre would have been the unpleasant sound of splintering GRP as the breeze was up. The subsequent visit to the room led to both boats being DSQ as not only did i protest but the PRO did also under Rule 2.

If we don't protest bullies they will always bully.

 

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24 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I have been in a similar situation where 2 x 40 footers barged in with no rights and had the boat in my lee not gone down to allow me out of the way there would have been the unpleasant sound of splintering GRP as the breeze was up. The subsequent visit to the room led to both boats being DSQ as not only did i protest but the PRO did also under Rule 2.

Curious, what was the rationale for rule 2, and did the PC conclude that it was broken?

Seems like rule 11 would have been enough...

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46 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Sorry but if you DSQ someone who has NOT broken a rule - for example a boat maintaining their rights resulting in a 'damage-less collision' (RRS 14 (b) then you are breaking the rules and exceeding your 'authority'. 

I would also suggest that the windward boat sailed into the committee boat and not the right of way boat so i am not sure that 14 would apply. Giving room at an obstruction (Section C) doesn't apply at starting marks surrounded by navigable water so hard to see what rule he would be DSQ on - no matter how wrong we think they are we cannot go round making up rules even when morally the guy was wrong.

That said, i agree it would be very tempting to sanction him in some way but would have to be a "Club Rule" not directly related to the incident on the race course. Of course i might be wrong, I'm just expressing an opinion. It is  certainly an interesting and awkward situation and not one i have ever seen or heard of in all my years.

It would be very interesting to hear the opinion of the Word Sailing Q & A team on this. A definite puzzler.

I have been in a similar situation where 2 x 40 footers barged in with no rights and had the boat in my lee not gone down to allow me out of the way thre would have been the unpleasant sound of splintering GRP as the breeze was up. The subsequent visit to the room led to both boats being DSQ as not only did i protest but the PRO did also under Rule 2.

If we don't protest bullies they will always bully.

 

Just stop, this is useless as it has already been debunked (bolded part).  I will put it in here again. It does not matter if you are right in that situation.  you need to avoid the collision period and that meand fall off and protest.  If you let him in, well, it's 100% on you and that is the point.  It's in the rules, it is below in red crayon with all the relevant rules #'s from arguably one of the preeminent rules guys on the planet......  .  Stop......

Seriously, it's right here.  For the 3rd time...  You can absolutely be protested for taking a guy into the boat.  Cites, rule#'s from above.  Linkey..  

From US SAILING Quiz # 16...

https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/dave-perrys-100-best-racing-rules-quizzes/

When L luffs, there is not room (space) for W to comply with the Part 2 rules and rule 31, Touching a Mark, due to the physical presence of the race committee boat (see the definition Room). Therefore L breaks rule 16.1. W breaks rules 11 and 31 but is exonerated under rule 21, Exoneration.

L also breaks rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and is penalized under that rule because the contact results in damage to the race committee boat. However, from the time L begins to luff, it is not possible for W to avoid contact; therefore W does not break rule 14.

Had L wanted to prevent W from passing between her and the committee boat, she should have luffed sooner while W was still able to respond to her luff.

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This is a lose-lose type of question:

If you protest at your beer can races, you're a whiney cunt. You should just talk it over with the offender over a beer at the club after the race. Of course, you'll never catch him because the offender probably zips home immediately after putting the boat to bed.

If you don't protest, the bully will treat you like a doormat and barge on you every time, and scrape you off at every mark rounding instead of giving room.

 

Isn't racing fun?

 

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31 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Curious, what was the rationale for rule 2, and did the PC conclude that it was broken?

Seems like rule 11 would have been enough...

Dangerous sailing which was, i understand considered unfair. (It was a long time ago - 7-8 years)The PRO actually protested the 2nd boat which reached in with absolutely nowhere to go and it was only through the grace of god there was no serious damage or injury. For example if i hadn't been able to put my helm up and bear away sharply he would have been right through us with the whole crew on the rail.

All i was concerned about was we avoided what would have been a very nasty collision and the offender was rightly flicked.

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13 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Just stop, this is useless as it has already been debunked (bolded part).  I will put it in here again. It does not matter if you are right in that situation.  you need to avoid the collision period and that meand fall off and protest.  If you let him in, well, it's 100% on you and that is the point.  It's in the rules, it is below in red crayon with all the relevant rules #'s from arguably one of the preeminent rules guys on the planet......  .  Stop......

Seriously, it's right here.  For the 3rd time...  You can absolutely be protested for taking a guy into the boat.  Cites, rule#'s from above.  Linkey..  

From US SAILING Quiz # 16...

https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/dave-perrys-100-best-racing-rules-quizzes/

When L luffs, there is not room (space) for W to comply with the Part 2 rules and rule 31, Touching a Mark, due to the physical presence of the race committee boat (see the definition Room). Therefore L breaks rule 16.1. W breaks rules 11 and 31 but is exonerated under rule 21, Exoneration.

L also breaks rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and is penalized under that rule because the contact results in damage to the race committee boat. However, from the time L begins to luff, it is not possible for W to avoid contact; therefore W does not break rule 14.

Had L wanted to prevent W from passing between her and the committee boat, she should have luffed sooner while W was still able to respond to her luff.

I will check with some guys with more experience than myself but from the diagram W could have luffed out up until 3.5 in the diagram and depending on the speed of the boats that would be very little time indeed and the . It is only after he doesn't luff out at 3.5 does L have to do anything - RRS 14 (a). Also i am not clear if L not bearing away fits with your piece in red above as that refers to the specifics of L altering course (luffing) once the give way boat has nowhere to go, not holding course.

I have the utmost respect from Mr Perry but he is 1 judge. It is a very strange and tricky INDIVIDUAL situation. Mr Perry is interpreting RRS 14 "a boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible"  to include "shall avoid causing contact between a give way boat and another boat, in this case the the committee boat" which is, actually, not what the rule says.

In fact from the diagram the right of way boat had no contact with the give way boat. DO you see what i am getting about. I am sure there must be a csae on this if it has happened before.

If i am wrong, i will hold my hands up, - those that i interact with on the forums know that for a fact - that is how we learn and i will see if i can find anything in the case book when i have time but it is now Zero Dark 40 and i need some shut eye

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20 minutes ago, Ajax said:

This is a lose-lose type of question:

If you protest at your beer can races, you're a whiney cunt. You should just talk it over with the offender over a beer at the club after the race. Of course, you'll never catch him because the offender probably zips home immediately after putting the boat to bed.

If you don't protest, the bully will treat you like a doormat and barge on you every time, and scrape you off at every mark rounding instead of giving room.

 

Isn't racing fun?

 

This is why I stopped doing beer can racing. I'm just not good at half assed racing - its a personality defect - I'm either racing or I'm cruising. I try to race in series or events where everyone knows and respects the rules (still lots of divering POV but at least effort). If that is not the case I'd rather doing a training session alone or with another boat that wants to get better...or just go for a sail.

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5 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I will check with some guys with more experience than myself but from the diagram W could have luffed out up until 3.5 in the diagram and depending on the speed of the boats that would be very little time indeed and the . It is only after he doesn't luff out at 3.5 does L have to do anything - RRS 14 (a). Also i am not clear if L not bearing away fits with your piece in red above as that refers to the specifics of L altering course (luffing) once the give way boat has nowhere to go, not holding course.

I have the utmost respect from Mr Perry but he is 1 judge. It is a very strange and tricky INDIVIDUAL situation. Mr Perry is interpreting RRS 14 "a boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible"  to include "shall avoid causing contact between a give way boat and another boat, in this case the the committee boat" which is, actually, not what the rule says.

In fact from the diagram the right of way boat had no contact with the give way boat. DO you see what i am getting about. I am sure there must be a csae on this if it has happened before.

If i am wrong, i will hold my hands up, - those that i interact with on the forums know that for a fact - that is how we learn and i will see if i can find anything in the case book when i have time but it is now Zero Dark 40 and i need some shut eye

OMG...  I done.. Stay away from the boat would ya....  

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50 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I will check with some guys with more experience than myself but from the diagram W could have luffed out up until 3.5 in the diagram and depending on the speed of the boats that would be very little time indeed and the . It is only after he doesn't luff out at 3.5 does L have to do anything - RRS 14 (a). Also i am not clear if L not bearing away fits with your piece in red above as that refers to the specifics of L altering course (luffing) once the give way boat has nowhere to go, not holding course.

I think that's exactly what the Dave Perry quiz question is saying. L can luff up and leave no room for W to pass between her and the committee boat as long as W still has an option to bail out. In that instance if W chooses not to bail out and winds up hitting the committee boat that's on her, not L.

Quote

I have the utmost respect from Mr Perry but he is 1 judge. It is a very strange and tricky INDIVIDUAL situation. Mr Perry is interpreting RRS 14 "a boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible"  to include "shall avoid causing contact between a give way boat and another boat, in this case the the committee boat" which is, actually, not what the rule says.

In fact from the diagram the right of way boat had no contact with the give way boat. DO you see what i am getting about. I am sure there must be a csae on this if it has happened before.

I don't think Mr. Perry is interpreting rule 14 that way at all. I think you may be looking at the diagram I posted, which is not exactly the scenario in the Perry quiz. In the quiz scenario, "L luffs and W makes contact nearly simultaneously with both L and the committee boat." Since L actually made contact which she could have avoided she breaks rule 14. I don't believe that a boat can break rule 14 without making physical contact with another boat.

I think we're all agreed (including Dave Perry & Shaggy) that if L luffs when it's not possible for W to avoid contact with L, committee boat or any other obstruction then L has broken rule 16.1 and, if there's contact, rule 14. But if L luffs early, putting W in a situation where she has a choice of actions and makes the wrong choice, L doesn't break 16.1.

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On 6/8/2020 at 12:39 PM, Heisenberg said:
On 6/8/2020 at 12:32 PM, AnotherSailor said:

It is a bit hard to take the command to end cheating seriously when it comes from someone with the screen name Heisenberg. 

It was that or Stabby the Unicorn. Both seemed edgy in their own unique way.

For the record: Werner Heisenberg was no cheat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- I get the cultural reference.

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6 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I think that's exactly what the Dave Perry quiz question is saying. L can luff up and leave no room for W to pass between her and the committee boat as long as W still has an option to bail out. In that instance if W chooses not to bail out and winds up hitting the committee boat that's on her, not L.

I don't think Mr. Perry is interpreting rule 14 that way at all. I think you may be looking at the diagram I posted, which is not exactly the scenario in the Perry quiz. In the quiz scenario, "L luffs and W makes contact nearly simultaneously with both L and the committee boat." Since L actually made contact which she could have avoided she breaks rule 14. I don't believe that a boat can break rule 14 without making physical contact with another boat.

I think we're all agreed (including Dave Perry & Shaggy) that if L luffs when it's not possible for W to avoid contact with L, committee boat or any other obstruction then L has broken rule 16.1 and, if there's contact, rule 14. But if L luffs early, putting W in a situation where she has a choice of actions and makes the wrong choice, L doesn't break 16.1.

Sorry, i just went with what the diagram was showing. Of course you cannot luff someone into the committee boat. In the diagram 

Sorry if i added to the confusion - will say no more.

Humble pie in the menu - as i said earlier, if i am wrong, i admit it

Cheers

SS 

 

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7 hours ago, KC375 said:

This is why I stopped doing beer can racing.

Exactly why I stopped last year. It’s a slippery slope when rules are ignored and “hey, it’s just beer can racing” become the prevailing attitude. Over the previous few years, as fleet captain, I saw and heard of too many incidents to keep me involved. I was blatantly fouled on stbd and leeward and had a windward port tracker hold his course. I was lucky, the boat on my hip, also on stbd was a good sailor I’ve sailed with and against. He saw the potential collision, luffed hard and allowed me to luff REAL hard to avoid a collision.

i tried the talk to the other owner, he wasn’t at the helm, and attempted to explain the situation but his attitude was “the guy driving didn’t see it that way” and refused to acknowledge let alone withdraw.

I gave up. I personally think the concept of ‘low key’ no protest racing can be dangerous. Awgrip just costs too much. 

Cruising and occasionally OPB is much more relaxing. Until I can find a 1 design fleet with a decent skill level that I can afford, that is. 

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9 minutes ago, DrewR said:

Exactly why I stopped last year. It’s a slippery slope when rules are ignored and “hey, it’s just beer can racing” become the prevailing attitude. Over the previous few years, as fleet captain, I saw and heard of too many incidents to keep me involved. I was blatantly fouled on stbd and leeward and had a windward port tracker hold his course. I was lucky, the boat on my hip, also on stbd was a good sailor I’ve sailed with and against. He saw the potential collision, luffed hard and allowed me to luff REAL hard to avoid a collision.

i tried the talk to the other owner, he wasn’t at the helm, and attempted to explain the situation but his attitude was “the guy driving didn’t see it that way” and refused to acknowledge let alone withdraw.

I gave up. I personally think the concept of ‘low key’ no protest racing can be dangerous. Awgrip just costs too much. 

Cruising and occasionally OPB is much more relaxing. Until I can find a 1 design fleet with a decent skill level that I can afford, that is. 

And so one more (keen) person leaves our sport! I am sure that those newer to sailing or not sure if it for them would not take quite so much pushing. No wonder participation numbers are falling with these sorts of wankers on the race course. Surely it is worth some drinking time to take the bastards to the room and piss them off. I would rather lose people like that from the sport than good people like you DrewR.

In my opinion it shouldn't matter whether the racing is low key or a world championship, the rules are there for safety and fairness. Boats coming together can hurt.

My wife was part of a 40.7 crew on S that was t-boned by a P tack boat just at the aft end of the coachroof - the impact 'V' ended at the inboard side of the side deck - the galley was pushed in 6-8 inches, 3 crew members required emergency treatment and the as the boat spun with the impact the bowman was flicked over the side with his mouth impacting a hard part on the way ultimately requiring plastic surgery (Russian boat did the hitting). This was 3'45" before the start. 3'45" later the Russians were on the start line. at 0800 the next morning they were in a 69 hearing.

Could you imagine playing a game of chess while drinking a "beer can" and your opponent saying they could move their knight like the queen. I think "fuck off" might enter the conversation at some point so why should we allow people to disrespect our sport in such a manner. 

Every time they get away with it - sorry, let mere-phrase that - every time WE LET them get away with it their bullying and cheating tactics (or at the very best their total ignorance) they win once again.

Keep pissing them off with visits to the room and maybe THEY will leave the beer can scene instead of other, more decent people, being pushed out.

Anarchy belongs on this website, not on the race course.

SS

PS - sorry for the rant but cheats and bullies really piss me off.

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3 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

PS - sorry for the rant but cheats and bullies really piss me off.

Me as well. But I mostly heard as fleet captain the tired old refrain, it’s just Wed night sailing. So I bailed. It sucks but if you can’t change things from within, it’s time to move on. 

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Tuesday night somewhat competitive Soling fleet racing. There was an excellent sailor who seemed to always just be able to sneak in on the port layline with boats coming in from starboard layline. It was partially avoiding eye contact. It was partially a hell of a move that was always on the razor's edge of fouling. It was partially long-time relationships. It was partially the good nature and focus on fun for the fleet. It was partially the fleet sailing short courses with 22 boats all converging on the mark tightly grouped and therefore conservative starboard laylines. It worked for years and years. Until it didn't.  A righty at the top of the course caught him out and his soling was holed by two different boats below the deck hull seam. If memory serves, one in front of shrouds, one behind. Video of the races and beer was always available and everyone stuck around to see it happen a few times, give him a hard time, and cheer loudly for the starboard tackers (who had zero chance of avoiding the collision). 

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On 6/6/2020 at 12:36 PM, Lucky Dog said:

Follow up:  he emailed me with the usual it’s just a race why am I getting all worked up? I responded I will protest him next time.

Today he responded with let’s be friends stuff I think he got the message.  The little talk/emails I hope works- protests are a pain.  That being said I have the red flag ready and the protest forms in the nav station.

thanks for the comments next week we will see.

 

The way to win this is to foul him, every race, and say "what's the big deal?"

Best done with a cheap beater boat that you don't mind getting scuffed up.

I'd be surprised if he got the message but I like your optimism.

DSQ or getting rammed is the only way guys like this learn.

- DSK

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This is a silly discussion.  In PHRF if a boat obviously fouls you avoid the collision and fly the flag and meet them in the protest room if they don't do their turns.  It's the only way to behave in a corinthian sport (golf, etc.)  to suppress anarchy on the course because there's no umpires. The folks who claim no contact no foul haven't read the rules.

OTOH if it's a difficult call, I'll hold back on the flag and if only minorly impeded may not pop the flag.  There's a world of difference between BeerCan racing and regional championships et. al. (One Design keelboat) racing where inches of clearance may make the difference in winning a race, but an ignorant clown in PHRF deserves to be protested every time he makes an obvious foul, both to protect the fleet and maybe educate him concerning the rules if he aspires to more competitive fleets. 

The idea that you discuss it with the transgressor in the bar afterwards instead of protesting  is silly and breaks the rule structure;  protest on the race course,  win or lose in the room, then discourse if there's anything to say.  I'll not enter "fun" races where protests are not allowed; serious racing involves  use of the rules as a sword, and also as protetcion.  Losers who don't have a clue deserve to die quickly; protest them immediately on the course   and  follow through with the protest proccedings to  straighten  them  out.

The idea the PHRF Beer Can races should relax the rules dumbs down the sport and will ultimately make  it a bumper car game where the big boats dominate.

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On 6/9/2020 at 12:30 AM, TJSoCal said:
On 6/8/2020 at 2:13 AM, Irish River said:

Yes, don't force collisions.  If I'm on PC and you force a collision, I will dsq you, whether you have rights or not.  Or if I'm fleet captain, I'm asking you to volunteer your boat for RC until the RC boat is fixed.  

Granted, the appropriate thing to do with a barger is to give room and protest.

Why?

Why should a a leeward right of way boat, who at her last change of  course gave a windward boat room to tack away or otherwise avoid the RC vessel, and is complying with all relevant rules, take any action to help the windward boat get out of a situation that the windward boat's misjudgement or boat handling mishap has put her in?

However - if you're on the committee boat you have no authority to DSQ a boat without a hearing. And if a boat with rights maintains her course and "forces" a barger into contact with the committee boat I don't think there's a rule that would allow a PC to penalize her.

Irish River was talking about being on the Protest Committee, not Race Committee, so that supposes that there is a hearing.    But you're right:  rule 64.1 requires that a protest committee has to decide that a boat has broken a rule, a real live rule, as defined in the RRS, before it can penalise a boat, and I agree that there's no rule that requires a leeward boat that has given room as required by rule 16.1 and is thereafter sailing a steady course to give any further room.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 3:16 AM, Irish River said:

If I am on the Protest Committee and it comes before me through a protest.... if you "force" a collision that could have been avoided, you will get a dsq if I am on the Protest Committee.  Rule 14 always applies.

Rule 14, Avoiding Contact

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room (a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and (b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

I am by no means sure what is meant by 'force a collision', but a collision between a boat racing and a race committee vessel is not a breach of rule 14.  A Race Commitee Vessel is not a 'boat' according to the definition in the rules which reads:

Boat  A sailboat and the crew on board.

 

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On 6/9/2020 at 5:05 AM, JohnMB said:
On 6/9/2020 at 4:20 AM, KC375 said:

TJ I think the term "driven" may be causing some confusion.

And this is the problem every time this issue comes up.

The keep clear and the RoW boat often have different understanding of what it means to 'drive' someone into the committee boat.

Which is a really good reason why, when discussing the rules it is best to use the language of the rules, not some slang, or stuff that sounds 'rulesy' but is not.

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