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Beer can racing - When to protest or not


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The "it's just a beer can race" from the perpetrator is classic.  The suggested reply of "yes it's just a beer can race so why are you cheating" is a great suggestion.  If it's crowded at the mark, yell it loud so others hear it, especially his crew.   The cheater will lose crew and friends on the race course.

Also what type is his boat and your boat, and how is your wallet?  If you're bigger, heavier and tougher, with a little cash on hand, maybe a bit of a nudge on the course would be good.  If he is breaking the rules, chances are his insurance should pick up the tab.

I'm not racing my boat, but if I did, I could be tempted in the moment to plow over a repeat offender in a lightweight boat with my 25000 lb solid glass 40 foot tank.  Heck I might not even slow down.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Coming down a slip lane to merge in Sydney traffic. My youngest daughter was complaining that nobody would let her in even though she was going fast enough. She drove a baby Fiat.

I lent her my 4WD 1 tonne flat tray Isuzu diesel pickup. All of a sudden she found there was always a big hole in the traffic waiting for her to merge.

After that she just drove more aggressively and stopped worrying about denting her car.

She also admired my parking technique in high rise car parks. Just back up until the heavy steel tow bar assy lets you know there's noplace further to go. The 'clunk' against the concrete is good.

Guess why I have a steel boat....

FKT

It's not a towbar, it's a "Park Assistance device".

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Coming down a slip lane to merge in Sydney traffic. My youngest daughter was complaining that nobody would let her in even though she was going fast enough. She drove a baby Fiat.

I lent her my 4WD 1 tonne flat tray Isuzu diesel pickup. All of a sudden she found there was always a big hole in the traffic waiting for her to merge.

After that she just drove more aggressively and stopped worrying about denting her car.

She also admired my parking technique in high rise car parks. Just back up until the heavy steel tow bar assy lets you know there's noplace further to go. The 'clunk' against the concrete is good.

Guess why I have a steel boat....

FKT

I find the same difference between driving the wife's car or my Land Rover 110, people are a lot less willing to let her car in.. or they try to squeeze me out when lanes merge. On the Landrover, I have the advantage of a tow ball on the back,  rock sliders on the sides and.... a tow ball on the front..

That generally keeps people off, though I did have a car run into the back in traffic.. tow ball 1, car radiator 0, along with clouds of steam...

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The "it's just a beer can race" comes not only from the offender but also the race committee who doesn't want to be bothered with "going to the room" and also from other club members who just don't want conflict within the club.

Do you know how many SI's I've read with stupid protest shit such as "Protests will be held in the Grand Caymans. Protesters will provide airfare and rum to the Protest Committee...etc.etc."   Yeah, sounds like they encourage following the rules and are serious about enforcing them.

You guys are just proving what I said earlier-  There are 2 losing philosophies on beer can racing:  You're a whiney cunt for protesting during "casual" races or you're a doormat who lets people cut you off.  49% of you are on one side and 49% are on the other.  The other 2% of us have said "fuck it" and gone cruising.

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Coming down a slip lane to merge in Sydney traffic. My youngest daughter was complaining that nobody would let her in even though she was going fast enough. She drove a baby Fiat.

I lent her my 4WD 1 tonne flat tray Isuzu diesel pickup. All of a sudden she found there was always a big hole in the traffic waiting for her to merge.

After that she just drove more aggressively and stopped worrying about denting her car.

She also admired my parking technique in high rise car parks. Just back up until the heavy steel tow bar assy lets you know there's noplace further to go. The 'clunk' against the concrete is good.

Guess why I have a steel boat....

FKT

Here's my funny car story:  At the supermarket in my lifted Jeep Wrangler there's a high end Mercedes (gold paint) in front of me as we're exiting the parking lot.  We stop at the street entrance and after a brief wait for traffic the guy guns it to get into traffic *in reverse*!  Bam!  He jumps out of his Mercedes and yells "You hit my car!".  I told him no you backed into me and a nearby shopper chimes in "Yah, I saw it, you were backing up dude."  The funny part was the box score:  Jeep= no visible damage,  Mercedes= major body damage to the trunk area as my bumper rode up over his bumper.  He won't be getting his groceries out of the trunk for a while  .  .  .

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4 hours ago, Ajax said:

The "it's just a beer can race" comes not only from the offender but also the race committee who doesn't want to be bothered with "going to the room" and also from other club members who just don't want conflict within the club.

Do you know how many SI's I've read with stupid protest shit such as "Protests will be held in the Grand Caymans. Protesters will provide airfare and rum to the Protest Committee...etc.etc."   Yeah, sounds like they encourage following the rules and are serious about enforcing them.

Well, it's the club's race so they can run it how they want. If the PRO wants to discourage protests that's their business (as long as they do it within the rules). They can run short filing periods, hide the protest desk, hold hearings at inconvenient times & places, etc. if that's what they feel is best for the event and the club. And it's everyone else's decision whether to race or not, given that they know their ability to protest rules violations may be curtailed.

For the record, I don't think I've ever seen ridiculous requirements for protesting in SIs. I think about the most I've seen (for a series that offers arbitration) is an SI that says that a disqualification as a result of a protest hearing shall be a DNE.

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The scars don't lie....I protested a Red Boat for hitting a Green Mark. They did not respond or perform the "turns".  The port side of that Red boat had a HUGE green stripe on it for the rest of the race. Back at the club the Idiot owner was trying to scrub off the green paint at the mooring while the launches were driving by full of the crews from the participating yachts. 

We asked him to withdrawal...he said he could not make that decision since it was a syndicate and he had to ask the other owners. 

He was just the daily driver. 

They were fighting for 4th place...please....stop. 

This proper yachtsman went on to become the Commodore, as did some of his syndicate....

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16 hours ago, Ajax said:

The "it's just a beer can race" comes not only from the offender but also the race committee who doesn't want to be bothered with "going to the room" and also from other club members who just don't want conflict within the club.

Do you know how many SI's I've read with stupid protest shit such as "Protests will be held in the Grand Caymans. Protesters will provide airfare and rum to the Protest Committee...etc.etc."   Yeah, sounds like they encourage following the rules and are serious about enforcing them.

You guys are just proving what I said earlier-  There are 2 losing philosophies on beer can racing:  You're a whiney cunt for protesting during "casual" races or you're a doormat who lets people cut you off.  49% of you are on one side and 49% are on the other.  The other 2% of us have said "fuck it" and gone cruising.

Be the 2% who declares that they won't protest, but will hail starboard when port and drive like one who don't know jack shit about rules and plays bumper cars with boat.

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On 6/9/2020 at 12:21 AM, RobbieB said:

Simply hail "protest" as loud as you can and get the flag up instantly! 

exactly

any racer worth his salt will have a flag , prepped and ready to go , normally tapped furled on the back stay with a quick release mechanism .

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15 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Well, it's the club's race so they can run it how they want. If the PRO wants to discourage protests that's their business (as long as they do it within the rules). They can run short filing periods, hide the protest desk, hold hearings at inconvenient times & places, etc. if that's what they feel is best for the event and the club. And it's everyone else's decision whether to race or not, given that they know their ability to protest rules violations may be curtailed.

For the record, I don't think I've ever seen ridiculous requirements for protesting in SIs. I think about the most I've seen (for a series that offers arbitration) is an SI that says that a disqualification as a result of a protest hearing shall be a DNE.

Yes, the club can run their race any way they want, and they WILL suffer the consequences of dwindling participation for their perfidy.  For the record, I was NOT embellishing when I posted those BS protest conditions in the SI's that I have seen.

 

6 hours ago, Pollination said:

The scars don't lie....I protested a Red Boat for hitting a Green Mark. They did not respond or perform the "turns".  The port side of that Red boat had a HUGE green stripe on it for the rest of the race. Back at the club the Idiot owner was trying to scrub off the green paint at the mooring while the launches were driving by full of the crews from the participating yachts. 

We asked him to withdrawal...he said he could not make that decision since it was a syndicate and he had to ask the other owners. 

He was just the daily driver. 

They were fighting for 4th place...please....stop. 

This proper yachtsman went on to become the Commodore, as did some of his syndicate....

When I hear the word "syndicate" it just makes me want to flee racing all the more.

 

3 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Be the 2% who declares that they won't protest, but will hail starboard when port and drive like one who don't know jack shit about rules and plays bumper cars with boat.

I like my boat too much to play bumper cars with cheaters.

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9 hours ago, Pollination said:

The scars don't lie....I protested a Red Boat for hitting a Green Mark. They did not respond or perform the "turns".  The port side of that Red boat had a HUGE green stripe on it for the rest of the race. Back at the club the Idiot owner was trying to scrub off the green paint at the mooring while the launches were driving by full of the crews from the participating yachts. 

We asked him to withdrawal...he said he could not make that decision since it was a syndicate and he had to ask the other owners. 

He was just the daily driver. 

They were fighting for 4th place...please....stop. 

This proper yachtsman went on to become the Commodore, as did some of his syndicate....

How is it that he was not disqualified?

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On 6/6/2020 at 12:36 PM, Lucky Dog said:

he emailed me with the usual it’s just a race why am I getting all worked up? I responded I will protest him next time.

Today he responded with let’s be friends stuff I think he got the message.

If it happens again and you don’t protest after having given him the warning, this is what he will think:

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On 6/9/2020 at 8:39 PM, shanghaisailor said:

Could you imagine playing a game of chess while drinking a "beer can" and your opponent saying they could move their knight like the queen.

+1.

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On 6/11/2020 at 6:32 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

 

She also admired my parking technique in high rise car parks. Just back up until the heavy steel tow bar assy lets you know there's noplace further to go. The 'clunk' against the concrete is good.

Guess why I have a steel boat....

FKT

We call that "park by feel" or "braille parking".  My wife says she just has bad depth perception.

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On 6/11/2020 at 3:20 PM, TJSoCal said:

Well, it's the club's race so they can run it how they want. If the PRO wants to discourage protests that's their business (as long as they do it within the rules). They can run short filing periods, hide the protest desk, hold hearings at inconvenient times & places, etc. if that's what they feel is best for the event and the club. And it's everyone else's decision whether to race or not, given that they know their ability to protest rules violations may be curtailed.

For the record, I don’t think I’ve ever seen ridiculous requirements for protesting in SIs.

If non-standard restrictions on the ability to protest are imposed, IMO that should be fully disclosed within the Notice of Race .... it’s really unfair surprising competitors with nonsense stuff like that in the SIs, after they have already registered. Cf. Rule J1.2(1).

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2 hours ago, Svanen said:

If non-standard restrictions on the ability to protest are imposed, IMO that should be fully disclosed within the Notice of Race .... it’s really unfair surprising competitors with nonsense stuff like that in the SIs, after they have already registered. Cf. Rule J1.2(1).

That's definitely true, the NOR should spell out any rule changes or other factors that might impact a boat's decision to enter.

But on the other hand, if competitors are reluctant to and frequently fail to protest when it's clearly called for (see the first couple of posts in this thread, and there have been others similar) then I'm not sure you can accuse the RC of "perfidy" if they choose to discourage protests even if they do it in a somewhat flip manner.

For Ajax, I'm curious, in the event where you saw those ridiculous SIs - if there had been a protest filed for a major incident, say a collision with serious damage, injuries, etc. do you think the PC's response would have been "sorry, unless you buy the airline tickets and the rum there's nothing we can do?" If you think that's the case, I don't think I'd ever want to sail in that OA's event no matter what the SIs said.

Better all around I think if competitors don't hesitate to hail and show the flag whenever they think it's warranted and then decide whether to follow through with a written filing once they're on the dock. And I think it's fine for the RC to encourage competitors to take on-the-water or post-race penalties if they'd prefer not to have to hold hearings, including by stiffening the potential penalty from a hearing.

 

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7 hours ago, Svanen said:

 

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In some states with fault-based divorce that's literally true - you can't make infidelity grounds if you screw your spouse after you know they cheated...

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On 6/9/2020 at 12:44 PM, KC375 said:

This is why I stopped doing beer can racing. I'm just not good at half assed racing - its a personality defect - I'm either racing or I'm cruising. I try to race in series or events where everyone knows and respects the rules (still lots of divering POV but at least effort). If that is not the case I'd rather doing a training session alone or with another boat that wants to get better...or just go for a sail.

Yep I agree it takes all the fun out of racing. 

regarding getting people into racing -I belive we are loosing ~30% of new sailors.  They will never start racing due to this stuff.

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I checked with my 'rules mentors'- (they have 5 x ACs between them as well as more major regattas and events than I have had hot dinners I think) and they were quite definite - you cannot be penalised under RRS 14 unless your boat was part of the collision, in other words either hit or being hit.

One actually asked if W was on some kind of mind altering trip.

No 14, only 31 on W and of course 11 if she didn't keep clear.

The diagram shows no contact between L & W and as neither L (nor W) showed any alteration of course from 8 boat lengths out when W had more than sufficient room to keep clear, not only of L but also of the committee boat and (from the diagram) L most certainly DID NOT luff up or "drive W into the committee boat" as suggested up thread.

Also, it was suggested up thread that L should be DSQ even though she didn't 'shut the door' on W nor drive W into the committee boat. That DSQ would, if the decision be appealed,  be a certainty for the appeal to be successful.

So as someone said, I "got off the boat" and checked.

Rules are rules - i was taught that if in doubt or puzzled, read the rule word by word and then check the italics for the definition word for word - then the rules are really quite easy to understand.

When I am wrong, as I said, I put my hand up and apologise, I wonder if others do too!

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