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4 hours ago, Editor said:

what-is-it-cc-20.jpg

Some of us a re fairly giddy about our resto boats, and here is one that before we tell the tale, we want you to guess what it is!

No wonder S&S stopped getting any raceboat commissions.  Nothing a good windstorm couldn't fix.

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Was a Palmer Johnson 30, S&S design that looked a lot like that. Terrible Boat! Would not sail in the ocean, especially reaching/running. Even worse it had an aluminum "space frame" interior...and that blister deck. UGH, POS!

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32 minutes ago, No Way said:

Savage Defiance 30 - think it was S&S. Def not S&S quarter tonner - i.e Jimney Cricket

Yup.  It is shown in "The Greatest" thread  post # 67.  S&S 30, so a Half Ton.  Post indicates built in Oz by Doug Brooker.

 

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Was lucky enough to have a few beers on board this gorgeous yacht with Lydia and Phil at the Tasmanian Wooden Boat Festival 18 months ago.

Beautiful boat that has been restored fantastically :) 

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+1 My envy aside, not an S-30?

Does not matter. a beautiful boat and excellent restore. Need more...restores...IMO.

59 minutes ago, mezaire said:

Was lucky enough to have a few beers on board this gorgeous yacht with Lydia and Phil at the Tasmanian Wooden Boat Festival 18 months ago.

Beautiful boat that has been restored fantastically :) 

 

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   On 7/18/2018 at 12:40 AM, lydia said: 

Like I said Ed you know shit about boats and have no sense of history.

From above to below on just on 5 years of 1/2 ton evolution

And you wank on about Ganbare

 S&S 30 Design 2098 - Defiance 

Triple planked Oregon 

 Launched September 1972

First boat launched to IOR Mk IIIa

IMG_0715 (002).jpg

 

I remember it from the Greatest thread...

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Ah so, SS makes me feel so "with it"

Does not matter, aside from small cockpit, (is "cockpit" ambiguous and PC?) that rescue is a pretty rig...so salty, to me. Wood? Seems too slick for wood.

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:
   On 7/18/2018 at 12:40 AM, lydia said: 

Like I said Ed you know shit about boats and have no sense of history.

From above to below on just on 5 years of 1/2 ton evolution

And you wank on about Ganbare

 S&S 30 Design 2098 - Defiance 

Triple planked Oregon 

 Launched September 1972

First boat launched to IOR Mk IIIa

IMG_0715 (002).jpg

 

I remember it from the Greatest thread...

"Wank on about Ganbare"? How high are you? As retro bitchin' as Defiance is, it was a dog from the jump and left no impression of greatness in any way. Ganbare on the other hand....well there is zero reason to explain if you don't already know/

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4 hours ago, Sail4beer said:
   On 7/18/2018 at 12:40 AM, lydia said: 

Like I said Ed you know shit about boats and have no sense of history.

From above to below on just on 5 years of 1/2 ton evolution

And you wank on about Ganbare

 S&S 30 Design 2098 - Defiance 

Triple planked Oregon 

 Launched September 1972

First boat launched to IOR Mk IIIa

IMG_0715 (002).jpg

 

I remember it from the Greatest thread...

Sucker is wood, makes the work-result even better...amazing perseverance. Imagine the sanding...

Thing is with sailboat, speed is relative, to me. All fast when you are aboard and doing it, cept a few 4ksb s but do owners care?

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1 hour ago, Editor said:

 As retro bitchin' as Defiance is, it was a dog from the jump and left no impression of greatness in any way.

^^^ This.

By way of illustration, the production Hughes North Star 1000 version of that design has a PHRF of of around 200. Most 30 footers of that vintage and earlier - Cal 2-29 etc. rate more like 180.

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1 hour ago, BobBill said:

Sucker is wood, makes the work-result even better...amazing perseverance. Imagine the sanding...

Thing is with sailboat, speed is relative, to me. All fast when you are aboard and doing it, cept a few 4ksb s but do owners care?

listen, i'm the asshole who bought an ericson 35, so i know about slow, but as you said, it is all relative. 

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17 hours ago, JoeO said:

Looks like a Northstar 500 - S&S production 1/4 tonner.

North Star 727, based on "Why Why", 1/4 ton world champ the year before.  Sailed on the first one on the west coast, summer of 1977 (out of Santa Cruz; Bill Lee wound up owning her after the first owner's group).  Nice boats for the day.

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3 hours ago, Editor said:

"Wank on about Ganbare"? How high are you? As retro bitchin' as Defiance is, it was a dog from the jump and left no impression of greatness in any way. Ganbare on the other hand....well there is zero reason to explain if you don't already know/

I just remembered the pic and copied the thread for it;)

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49 minutes ago, Editor said:

listen, i'm the asshole who bought an ericson 35, so i know about slow, but as you said, it is all relative. 

relative indeed... can still remember doing 15.1 knts groundspeed  (log (analoge) went only (never ever came close to that speed again to my mothers liking) up to 12 knts) on the family boat. a Vilm 36... we left from Blankenberge to go home in the Netherlands, left with about 15 knts of wind, the wind kept increasing up to a point where the women friendly windspeed meter (old Barron set which from time to time gets dirty and reduces the shown windspeed by a couple of knots) said 40 some knts wind over deck... me and my brother were 13 or so, rest of the crew were our parents... only the main up and 1500 rpm on the engine (with that boat your helm sometimes works better with a little bit of engine power). it was the last year we sailed with the wooden mast since the mainsail rail on the back of the mast broke that day... (i was hoisted up the mast when entering Scheveningen with a hammer to just smash the mainsail cars down over the broken part)

 

it was way more impressive than a windy day years later on a 49er/ extreme windy day on a J24/... (of which i remember way less)

 

boats hull speed is 6.5 knts or so...

picture of the boat from last year

image.thumb.png.e0b0966bd8e55e84935603177ee8fbf7.png

 

 

PS: groundspeed was read from a Philips AP navigator...

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16 minutes ago, #13 said:

North Star 727, based on  45 Deg South "Why Why", 1/4 ton world champ the year before.  Sailed on the first one on the west coast, summer of 1977 (out of Santa Cruz; Bill Lee wound up owning her after the first owner's group).  Nice boats for the day.

FIFY

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22 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

So how much handicap adjustment does the snail get for having a cruising interior?

Looks like he dosn't need one, he's ahead snail-for-snail... nor sure that tacking in front was legal tho...

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1 hour ago, Editor said:

listen, i'm the asshole who bought an ericson 35, so i know about slow, but as you said, it is all relative. 

Lots of swabs would love to have your 35 rig...lots, as long as the head works. 

 

@ Dex...I have always sort of wanted to sail a 22 SMeter and that SC20 has a similar draw...you flotsam you, You got me wishing and looking....Willmar, might have to finish recent boat project and call 'em. 

And they make a spendy row/sailer 18 foor Dory I saw...class acts.

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37 minutes ago, daan62 said:

relative indeed... can still remember doing 15.1 knts groundspeed  (log (analoge) went only (never ever came close to that speed again to my mothers liking) up to 12 knts) on the family boat. a Vilm 36... we left from Blankenberge to go home in the Netherlands, left with about 15 knts of wind, the wind kept increasing up to a point where the women friendly windspeed meter (old Barron set which from time to time gets dirty and reduces the shown windspeed by a couple of knots) said 40 some knts wind over deck... me and my brother were 13 or so, rest of the crew were our parents... only the main up and 1500 rpm on the engine (with that boat your helm sometimes works better with a little bit of engine power). it was the last year we sailed with the wooden mast since the mainsail rail on the back of the mast broke that day... (i was hoisted up the mast when entering Scheveningen with a hammer to just smash the mainsail cars down over the broken part)

 

it was way more impressive than a windy day years later on a 49er/ extreme windy day on a J24/... (of which i remember way less)

 

boats hull speed is 6.5 knts or so...

picture of the boat from last year

 

 

 

PS: groundspeed was read from a Philips AP navigator...

got an old photo album of the shelf and even found a picture of that day...(yes, thats me about 29 years ago...):

image.thumb.png.0d82f0ed78abc5e9ba700417af21fca2.png

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4 hours ago, BobBill said:

Sucker is wood, makes the work-result even better...amazing perseverance. Imagine the sanding...

Thing is with sailboat, speed is relative, to me. All fast when you are aboard and doing it, cept a few 4ksb s but do owners care?

Do I care!

15134559.jpg

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6 hours ago, Editor said:

"Wank on about Ganbare"? How high are you? As retro bitchin' as Defiance is, it was a dog from the jump and left no impression of greatness in any way. Ganbare on the other hand....well there is zero reason to explain if you don't already know/

That's a bit harsh Ed, that design was hardly a dog back in the day. Tommy Stephenson's GRP production sister Defiance 30 "Providence" won an Aus Half Ton championship and they did well offshore too.John Molloy's Audacious here in Melbourne was incredibly well sailed and very hard to beat on IOR around the buoys or offshore for many years.  She was crewed by a young bunch of legends, some of whom went on to great sailing deeds including the '83 Americas Cup. I'm sure you remember the '83 Cup; the one you lost?

The Defiances were the mainstay of a big fleet of IOR Level Rating half-tonners here for many years and there  are lots of Defiance 30s still sailing today.(or would be if they could under current restrictions) 

We raced a state of the art 1976 NZ built Peterson 30 half tonner (Foxy Lady near-sister) ourselves and struggled for a long time in anything but light air to beat the Defiances. Through that connection, I got to meet Doug Peterson here in Melbourne and what an enlightened man he was! There's no doubt about his importance in the yacht design pantheon.

 

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12 hours ago, lydia said:

Do I care!

15134559.jpg

@ L, Your comment, "Do care" and pic says it all, Capt.

Anyone who has restored or even finished wood knows and should appreciate the work involved. This jetsam dodger swab loves it, and is about to do it again...fourth time...shoot me!

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On 7/7/2020 at 5:38 PM, 12 metre said:

Yup.  It is shown in "The Greatest" thread  post # 67.  S&S 30, so a Half Ton.  Post indicates built in Oz by Doug Brooker.

 

Doug Booker built the original and Savage's built the 'glass versions. Jimney Cricket was the S&S quarter tonner which Doug built for himself. A couple of years ago tried to get info on the design from S&S Blog but nothing

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19 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

That's a bit harsh Ed, that design was hardly a dog back in the day. Tommy Stephenson's GRP production sister Defiance 30 "Providence" won an Aus Half Ton championship and they did well offshore too.John Molloy's Audacious here in Melbourne was incredibly well sailed and very hard to beat on IOR around the buoys or offshore for many years.  She was crewed by a young bunch of legends, some of whom went on to great sailing deeds including the '83 Americas Cup. I'm sure you remember the '83 Cup; the one you lost?

The Defiances were the mainstay of a big fleet of IOR Level Rating half-tonners here for many years and there  are lots of Defiance 30s still sailing today.(or would be if they could under current restrictions) 

We raced a state of the art 1976 NZ built Peterson 30 half tonner (Foxy Lady near-sister) ourselves and struggled for a long time in anything but light air to beat the Defiances. Through that connection, I got to meet Doug Peterson here in Melbourne and what an enlightened man he was! There's no doubt about his importance in the yacht design pantheon.

 

Not harsh in terms of what boat revolutionized design and IOR racing. Like, not even close. I admit i don't know much about the Defiances of the world, and I'm sure they had their moments in the sun. But look at the two boats today - one has stood the test of time (relatively), one not so much!

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19 hours ago, armchairadmiral said:

Ganbare ? Really !. The move to modern sailboats was Bruce Farr. 727, Tituscanby (later Tohe Candu) and the giant killer Prospect of Ponsonby . And boy, did the rulemakers stick it to his designs.

The move to modern sailboats may lie with Farr and his fellow kiwis, but none of the boats you listed can be called "The Greatest" - and this is what the thread is about.  Not about which designer was greatest.

As far as "The Greatest" goes, the most dominating performance at a Ton Cup (exceeding even Ganbare's) was by J. Fauroux's Bullit in 1980 where she demolished the best the kiwis could offer - in the Kiwis backyard no less.  The series was mainly sailed in typical kiwi conditions, i.e.+15 kts.  Bullit scored 1,3,1,1,1 for the series.  The 3rd place finish was when they broke a spreader and had to nurse her home.  In the final long distance race sailed with gusts to 40 kts her mast began inverting and suffered some hull damage but she still won, even though they were slowing the boat down to keep in close contact with the rest of the fleet in case something drastic happened.  Keep in mind that Bullit was a 3 year old design at the time, as another Bullit, pulled from the same mold won the QTC the year before.  Bullit could hang in there upwind, then fly past all the competition on the reaches and runs.  In other words she soundly beat the kiwis at their own game.

RB Sailing has a more lengthy description of the boat and event here: http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/2013/05/bullit-faroux-quarter-tonner.html

Actually, from about 1979 on, the kiwis and Farr never posed much of a threat in any Ton Cup (barring some later "end of IOR" editions of the OTC where Farr's designs looked pretty much like all the others.  Farr for all intents and purposes became irrelevant to the IOR scene in around 1979 - only to have his career resurrected in 83/84 with Pacific Sundance, which turned North Americans heads with her performance at the 84 Clipper Cup.

From 1979 and on, most of the Ton Cups were won by French designs from the boards of: Fauroux, Briand, Berrett, J&N, et al.  The ones they didn't win were still European (i.e. Jeppesen)

Bullit 2.jpg

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On 7/8/2020 at 2:29 AM, Editor said:

"Wank on about Ganbare"? How high are you? As retro bitchin' as Defiance is, it was a dog from the jump and left no impression of greatness in any way. Ganbare on the other hand....well there is zero reason to explain if you don't already know/

I only posted defiance on the greatest thread not to say it was the greatest but to show why the 1977 Farr 1ton and 1/2  ton boats were the greatest series of boats in modern times and that Ganabre while advancing the canoe hull hull form was no where as revolutionary as the Farr boats which really where the first on the modern boats  we race today
a fast 40 or tp 52 owes far more to swuzzlebuble than the ganabre
some may argue that even the Farr 40od is a step back from Red lion

Defiance was only posted to show how far things went from late 1972 to late 1976 just 4 years

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On 7/7/2020 at 1:07 PM, JoeO said:

Looks like he dosn't need one, he's ahead snail-for-snail... nor sure that tacking in front was legal tho...

Not a tack... a luff. And he gave sufficient time and room for Slug to respond and keep clear. Foul: Slug.

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10 hours ago, BobBill said:

@ L, Your comment, "Do care" and pic says it all, Capt.

Anyone who has restored or even finished wood knows and should appreciate the work involved. This jetsam dodger swab loves it, and is about to do it again...fourth time...shoot me!

There you go Bob Bill.

Restoration number 3. (should not have sold that one)

Defiance was number 4 and number 5 is on the dock waiting.

Special mention to Peter Kerr and the team at Deagon Slipway in Queensland by the way for both Defiance and Marion du Fresne below.

11351500.jpg.d960099a553e1a7a9cbde2fc0c5e3861.jpg

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On 7/7/2020 at 5:06 PM, No Way said:

Savage Defiance 30 - think it was S&S. Def not S&S quarter tonner - i.e Jimney Cricket

Both Defiance and Jimmey Cricket built by Doug Brooker. Defiance for his dad Norm and JC for himself.

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On 7/7/2020 at 12:49 PM, 12 metre said:

FIFY

Forgot about 45 degrees south.  1975 champs, sistership Why Why was 1976, and Carl Schumacher's Summertime Dream in 1977?

Don't ask me what I just had for lunch, it's already forgotten, and no clue why I remember these antiquated sailing stats...  ;-)

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Nah mate we are going full retro, with the blooper.

and to think all these sail sail round now not knowing they have a modern blooper cut on board.

 

Still got that jockey pole btw

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6 hours ago, barefoot children said:

Looks like re-decked Northstar 500  to me:

 

north_star_500_photo.jpg

northstar_500_drawing.jpg

It's a bigger version of the 500. The Tartan 41 is an even bigger version.

In those days S&S did series of a design concept like that.

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8 hours ago, lydia said:

Nah mate we are going full retro, with the blooper.

and to think all these sail sail round now not knowing they have a modern blooper cut on board.

 

Still got that jockey pole btw

You get a blooper, I'm coming down for a ride - worth a couple of weeks quarantine...

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4 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

You get a blooper, I'm coming down for a ride - worth a couple of weeks quarantine...

I can't get there myself til 24 July without holing up in the house

Bugger

But DD it would be a pleasure!

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