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USN Ship In San Diego on Fire


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2 minutes ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Curious about the assignment of blame.  Do captains get thrown under the bus for these sorts of events?

Tied up to the pier with a work crew doing maintenance would still require someone in charge.  Even if he is on holiday in Hawaii.

My guess is yes.

Unfairly probably, but history is not kind to the unfortunate.

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24 minutes ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Curious about the assignment of blame.  Do captains get thrown under the bus for these sorts of events?

Command is ultimately accountable (usually) for most things that happen whether they were involved in the decision or not. There are certain hazards of command.....that is one of them.

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Ultimately, the Captain is in charge of the ship and the crew.  Training, watch requirements, coordination with off ship workers and their laydown areas, etc.  All of it.  They don't call it the "Burden of Command" for nothing.  Ship is likely to be take out of commission for rebuilding if it can be salvaged and treated like a newly commissioned ship at the end.  Remote possibility that they will place an Engineering Duty Officer as a titular CO or Officer in Charge as he or she would have the requisite training and experience to supervise the refit.  

Slim chance the investigation will find the CO without at least some of the blame.  An old squadron CO of mine went on the be CO of a Carrier.  They had a collision at sea while he was asleep and the CDO/OOD both failed to follow standing orders and notify him of a CPA inside his "call me" distance.  He lost his command and probable selection to Admiral as "he was responsible for the training and qualification of the watchstanders."  

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I watched The Caine Mutiny again last night - the ending worth the watch as it spells out how things start going pear shaped bit by bit.  Since we don't know the details not really applicable just interesting.

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Just now, d'ranger said:

I watched The Caine Mutiny again last night - the ending worth the watch as it spells out how things start going pear shaped bit by bit.  Since we don't know the details not really applicable just interesting.

Yep...........I have seen it many times in several industries. 

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21 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Ultimately, the Captain is in charge of the ship and the crew.  Training, watch requirements, coordination with off ship workers and their laydown areas, etc.  All of it.  They don't call it the "Burden of Command" for nothing.  Ship is likely to be take out of commission for rebuilding if it can be salvaged and treated like a newly commissioned ship at the end.  Remote possibility that they will place an Engineering Duty Officer as a titular CO or Officer in Charge as he or she would have the requisite training and experience to supervise the refit.  

Slim chance the investigation will find the CO without at least some of the blame.  An old squadron CO of mine went on the be CO of a Carrier.  They had a collision at sea while he was asleep and the CDO/OOD both failed to follow standing orders and notify him of a CPA inside his "call me" distance.  He lost his command and probable selection to Admiral as "he was responsible for the training and qualification of the watchstanders."  

I'm going to climb way out on a rotten limb here to predict they scrap/part this one out and replace it with the newer model, the new ones have that well-deck. I think the interior damage is so bad the bill to fix will be higher than what they will want to put into a boat that only has a couple decades left in her.  

 I feel the limb I'm standing on is rotten because it probably rides on the levels of suck the Congress critters whose districts the repair yard and the new boat yard have, which I assume unlikely to be the same critters. I think they would fix it in CA but new boats are usually built on the east coast. 

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The only time a captain is not responsible for his ship it the moment the bow enters a drydock until the time it clears. There is, shall I say typically, a change of command upon the ship leaving the drydock.  It will be interesting to see if a change of command had been instituted or it was the responsibility of the drydock.

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3 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Yep...........I have seen it many times in several industries. 

When I started racing on bigger boats (ten crew or so) I thought what a perfect environment to determine people's abilities to manage and delegate. If something like this were incorporated there would be fewer assholes demonstrating the Peter Principle. Team Work, it's not for everybody.

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20 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

maybe the only covid free ship around now

Nope

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-18/sailors-test-positive-for-covid-19-after-sharing-firefighting-gear-at-san-diego-ship-fire

SAN DIEGO — 

 

At least two sailors from a U.S. amphibious transport dock have tested positive for the coronavirus after helping to fight this week’s fire aboard the amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard, the Navy said.

At least 27 people who were in contact with them are now quarantined.

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

I'm going to climb way out on a rotten limb here to predict they scrap/part this one out and replace it with the newer model, the new ones have that well-deck. I think the interior damage is so bad the bill to fix will be higher than what they will want to put into a boat that only has a couple decades left in her.  

 I feel the limb I'm standing on is rotten because it probably rides on the levels of suck the Congress critters whose districts the repair yard and the new boat yard have, which I assume unlikely to be the same critters. I think they would fix it in CA but new boats are usually built on the east coast. 

No doubt that will play.  NASSCO, in San Diego is a General Dynamics Company.  The building yard for the LHD class ships is Ingalls, in Pascagoula, a Northrop Grumman company.  

That said, a rebuild would occur the NASSCO dock for several year.  As discussed previously, if they can't keep the dock in use for a very significant percentage of the time, they are losing money.  I'd bet NASCCO would have to cancel a lot of work to put BH in the dock again.  If she is watertight (and appears to be), you could use a wet slip and bring a large floating crane along side for and barge in the heavy iron.  Without gantry cranes on both sides, i would not envy the repair supervisor but it could be done.  

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1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

No doubt that will play.  NASSCO, in San Diego is a General Dynamics Company.  The building yard for the LHD class ships is Ingalls, in Pascagoula, a Northrop Grumman company.  

That said, a rebuild would occur the NASSCO dock for several year.  As discussed previously, if they can't keep the dock in use for a very significant percentage of the time, they are losing money.  I'd bet NASCCO would have to cancel a lot of work to put BH in the dock again.  If she is watertight (and appears to be), you could use a wet slip and bring a large floating crane along side for and barge in the heavy iron.  Without gantry cranes on both sides, i would not envy the repair supervisor but it could be done.  

My thinking is if this were war time the USN would specify the fix one way to get the ship back on line in a hurry, but in peacetime they will be using the spec to fish for a new boat.

 Specifications likely be of the "complete refit" nature....and a  "as long as it's in the shop..." wish list. ALL the potential issues with wiring subjected to heat and salt water fire suppression, ALL the potential corrosion issues (which a crew might've dealt with) will be included.      

 

 

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2 hours ago, pbd said:

Nope

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-18/sailors-test-positive-for-covid-19-after-sharing-firefighting-gear-at-san-diego-ship-fire

SAN DIEGO — 

 

At least two sailors from a U.S. amphibious transport dock have tested positive for the coronavirus after helping to fight this week’s fire aboard the amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard, the Navy said.

At least 27 people who were in contact with them are now quarantined.

No shit. That COVID shit gets around! Sorry to hear the folk got infected.

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I get the impression that having a successful command career is heavily dependent on being lucky in various ways.  And if they keep firing the guys who had to learn the hard lessons in real time, seems it would dumb down the entire enterprise over time.

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

My thinking is if this were war time the USN would specify the fix one way to get the ship back on line in a hurry, but in peacetime they will be using the spec to fish for a new boat.

 Specifications likely be of the "complete refit" nature....and a  "as long as it's in the shop..." wish list. ALL the potential issues with wiring subjected to heat and salt water fire suppression, ALL the potential corrosion issues (which a crew might've dealt with) will be included.      

 

 

Realistically, it needs to be a rerun to new, upgraded spec if it’s going to be repaired. I think the bill to return it to service will be too high with too little return u less you can realistically give it at least 20 more years of service. Nasty and ugly as the work is, removing and replacing all power distribution wiring in any space exposed to significant heat is a requirement. As to cleaning and corrosion protection, taking any burned apexes back to bright metal is required. 
 

Attractive as it is to utilize a lot of sailor labor in corrosion related work, it’s usually a pretty poor trade. You take a volunteer and spent a lot of money training her to do some significantly technical work and put them to work full time doing raw labor work. The result is usually pretty poor quality, a pissed off sailor and increased disciplinary problems. It happens and a lot of the unskilled work gets passed to the crew under the budget pressure but the Navy is slowly trying to reduce that.


 

19 minutes ago, NaptimeAgain said:

I get the impression that having a successful command career is heavily dependent on being lucky in various ways.  And if they keep firing the guys who had to learn the hard lessons in real time, seems it would dumb down the entire enterprise over time.


There is a balance but the more senior you are, the more authority and responsibility you earn. With that comes accountability for bad stuff that happens. The spate of collisions at sea over the last few years is a good example. In each case, poorly trained and dysfunctional watch teams ignored SOP, failed to perform as trained or didn’t get trained but the CO’s signed off on their qualifications and went to bed.  Lots of mitigating factors and failures in higher command and a few Admirals lost their jobs as well but in each case, the Navy handed the CO a ship and the crew to train and lead. When the crew failed, the Captain takes the fall.  There are no “but he didn’t mean to let it happen.” Do overs at that level  

in this case, there will be a very hard look at training and supervision of watchkeepers, actions or lack of actions, and a thorough review of the chain of events leading to an out of control fire. Arson is not unheard of and will be considered as a possible cause. The CO of a large amphib is usually a nuclear trained aviator who served as XO of a carrier before being selected to command the amphib. Successful ones go on to be Carrier COs. It’s a harsh path.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Realistically, it needs to be a rerun to new, upgraded spec if it’s going to be repaired. I think the bill to return it to service will be too high with too little return u less you can realistically give it at least 20 more years of service. Nasty and ugly as the work is, removing and replacing all power distribution wiring in any space exposed to significant heat is a requirement. As to cleaning and corrosion protection, taking any burned apexes back to bright metal is required. 
 

Attractive as it is to utilize a lot of sailor labor in corrosion related work, it’s usually a pretty poor trade. You take a volunteer and spent a lot of money training her to do some significantly technical work and put them to work full time doing raw labor work. The result is usually pretty poor quality, a pissed off sailor and increased disciplinary problems. It happens and a lot of the unskilled work gets passed to the crew under the budget pressure but the Navy is slowly trying to reduce that.


 


There is a balance but the more senior you are, the more authority and responsibility you earn. With that comes accountability for bad stuff that happens. The spate of collisions at sea over the last few years is a good example. In each case, poorly trained and dysfunctional watch teams ignored SOP, failed to perform as trained or didn’t get trained but the CO’s signed off on their qualifications and went to bed.  Lots of mitigating factors and failures in higher command and a few Admirals lost their jobs as well but in each case, the Navy handed the CO a ship and the crew to train and lead. When the crew failed, the Captain takes the fall.  There are no “but he didn’t mean to let it happen.” Do overs at that level  

in this case, there will be a very hard look at training and supervision of watchkeepers, actions or lack of actions, and a thorough review of the chain of events leading to an out of control fire. Arson is not unheard of and will be considered as a possible cause. The CO of a large amphib is usually a nuclear trained aviator who served as XO of a carrier before being selected to command the amphib. Successful ones go on to be Carrier COs. It’s a harsh path.  

 

 

In that paradigm, the president or SECDEF should resign or be fired for every mishap, since they are ultimately responsible. TA metaphorical accountability thermocline.  Seems like an incentive to bury problems for career self defense.  I guess they chose the life.

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9 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Realistically, it needs to be a rerun to new, upgraded spec if it’s going to be repaired. I think the bill to return it to service will be too high with too little return u less you can realistically give it at least 20 more years of service. Nasty and ugly as the work is, removing and replacing all power distribution wiring in any space exposed to significant heat is a requirement. As to cleaning and corrosion protection, taking any burned apexes back to bright metal is required. 

Many years ago I worked at a large General Electric factory making electric commuter train units.  The trains were used in the NE corridor, NYC, Philadelphia, Connecticut, etc.  

One 3 car set had a fire and they brought the damaged cars back to the shop to repair them.  In the car with the most damage, the heat was high enough to melt a large hole in the steel floor.  There were a few miles of wire in the cars and it all had to be striped out and replaced, along with much of the interior components.  It was a dirty, nasty job.  Each car was about 85' long  I can't imagine doing something like that on the scale of the ship involved in the fire.

This is what the cars looked like.

image.png.d1e0266cc5d410028b81ebf85dbf4824.png

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12 hours ago, NaptimeAgain said:

I get the impression that having a successful command career is heavily dependent on being lucky in various ways.  And if they keep firing the guys who had to learn the hard lessons in real time, seems it would dumb down the entire enterprise over time.

Didn’t Napoleon, very successful right up until he wasn’t, say something about preferring to have generals who were lucky?

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I don't know anything about big ships (or much of anything else, some would argue) but.... wouldn't the heat of the fire have the potential to affect the steel, and the structural integrity of the ship itself?

it seems to me that this is about more than just replacing wiring and other burned bits.... I'd guess that whole sections of the structure would have to be re-built.

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24 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I don't know anything about big ships (or much of anything else, some would argue) but.... wouldn't the heat of the fire have the potential to affect the steel, and the structural integrity of the ship itself?

it seems to me that this is about more than just replacing wiring and other burned bits.... I'd guess that whole sections of the structure would have to be re-built.

The heat of the fire can warp and distort bulkheads and structural members. I don't know what the heat will do to the metallurgical property's of the alloys of the steels used in the structure. I was a mechanical/piping designer, not a structural engineer/naval architect . I took class at my shipyard years ago called Welding Technology and Metallurgy taught by our welding engineering office. One session had to do with flame bending. A prominent professor from the University of Washington was brought in to teach the class. He showed how a proper use of heat, cooling and sometimes pressure could be used to straighten warp and distorted metal structure. His famous example was how the legs of the Space Needle were formed using flame bending. Our instructor showed us examples from a ships fire in our shipyard. The beams and structures were warped. The mechanics were able to straighten most of the damage by using the localized heating and cooling. The instructor did say that replacing some of the structure could maybe have been replaced easier than trying to straighten everything.

In the case of the Bonhommie Richard fire, I am sure the surveyors will be all over it estimating the damage and cost to repair. As was reported before, the machinery rooms were not damaged or lightly damaged. I did some modernization designs in the Main Machinery room of some of the ships of that class. The steam plant controls had been updated to the latest configuration.

I would think that if the Navy chose to repair this ship, they would send it back to the building yard in Missisipi. The Ingalls yard has the Syncro lift system where ships are lifted and moved around without tying up a drydock.

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My bet they chop it at whatever line/level it is good below

then take off like New construction from there

likely to look more like the one just splashed than as original

might also be changed into whatever kind of ship that was desired but not budgeted as a One-Off

Think NewShit Test Platform

I would like to hear the results of measuring (from Deck ?) any Twist or bend end to end

wonder what the tolerance is when New ???

COVID-19 may be well long gone before # 6 Sets out on another mission 

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I know it keeps people working and paying taxes but don’t we have more than enough ships?

Empty it of fuel and salvage the engines and make a reef out of it.   Heck an offshore platform would be pretty cool.  Plant a forest on the top 

park it off Whidbey naval airbase and use it for touch and go practice?

leave it in the South China Sea?

All bad ideas I know.   But I really think we have too many ships.   

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15 minutes ago, Windward said:

I know it keeps people working and paying taxes but don’t we have more than enough ships?

Empty it of fuel and salvage the engines and make a reef out of it.   Heck an offshore platform would be pretty cool.  Plant a forest on the top 

park it off Whidbey naval airbase and use it for touch and go practice?

leave it in the South China Sea?

All bad ideas I know.   But I really think we have too many ships.   

Sell it to the dudes in India that run them up on shore.

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4 hours ago, Great White said:

The heat of the fire can warp and distort bulkheads and structural members. I don't know what the heat will do to the metallurgical property's of the alloys of the steels used in the structure. I was a mechanical/piping designer, not a structural engineer/naval architect . I took class at my shipyard years ago called Welding Technology and Metallurgy taught by our welding engineering office. One session had to do with flame bending. A prominent professor from the University of Washington was brought in to teach the class. He showed how a proper use of heat, cooling and sometimes pressure could be used to straighten warp and distorted metal structure. His famous example was how the legs of the Space Needle were formed using flame bending. Our instructor showed us examples from a ships fire in our shipyard. The beams and structures were warped. The mechanics were able to straighten most of the damage by using the localized heating and cooling. The instructor did say that replacing some of the structure could maybe have been replaced easier than trying to straighten everything.

In the case of the Bonhommie Richard fire, I am sure the surveyors will be all over it estimating the damage and cost to repair. As was reported before, the machinery rooms were not damaged or lightly damaged. I did some modernization designs in the Main Machinery room of some of the ships of that class. The steam plant controls had been updated to the latest configuration.

I would think that if the Navy chose to repair this ship, they would send it back to the building yard in Missisipi. The Ingalls yard has the Syncro lift system where ships are lifted and moved around without tying up a drydock.

Thanks,

Hoping you would jump in. I dealt with post fire damage on the  carrier Independence and ran the PACFLT ship repair budget for a couple of years but the scope of this one is bigger than I have seen.  

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20 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Thanks,

Hoping you would jump in. I dealt with post fire damage on the  carrier Independence and ran the PACFLT ship repair budget for a couple of years but the scope of this one is bigger than I have seen.  

I didn't know about the Independence fire, so did a bit of googling.  Everything you guys own seems to catch fire or hit things, and it makes sense when you thing about how many things can go wrong in a hurry.

http://www.damagecontrolmuseums.org/Ship_Cas_history/cas_index.html

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19 hours ago, Tax Man said:

I didn't know about the Independence fire, so did a bit of googling.  Everything you guys own seems to catch fire or hit things, and it makes sense when you thing about how many things can go wrong in a hurry.

http://www.damagecontrolmuseums.org/Ship_Cas_history/cas_index.html

That website is it's own rabbit hole.....

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  • 1 month later...
Quote

SAN DIEGO (KGTV) -- A Navy sailor is under investigation in connection with the fire that caused extensive damage to the USS Bonhomme Richard at Naval Base San Diego, sources told ABC 10News.

Multiple sources with close ties to Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) told ABC 10News that investigators determined the July 12 fire may have been set intentionally. Investigators identified a sailor as an arson suspect in their probe, sources said.

The sources added multiple search warrants were executed at the sailor’s home and property. The sailor’s name and rank were not disclosed.

On Tuesday, a Navy spokesperson told ABC 10News that NCIS requested help from the National Response Team for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) because the agency provides resources and expertise on complex, large-scale incidents like the massive ship fire.

A Navy spokesperson on Wednesday declined to confirm what sources told ABC 10News regarding the suspect and now-arson investigation.

 

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been here before haven't we?

 

https://patch.com/new-hampshire/portsmouth-nh/man-who-set-submarine-fire-gets-17-year-sentenced

If convicted, he is going to to be paying it off in smokes from prison for the rest of his life like this loser.

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I take these with a big grain of salt.  This same crap came out after the Iowa explosion and of course Olympic Park.   Blame the Enlisted Man or the fat security guard.   

Only after a thorough investigation that is backed up by multiple agencies can we believe anything.   We just had a Carrier Sailor released from a Virginia jail for a rape / murder he did not commit in  1985!!!

Facking over enlisted since 1775 ...another great tradition. 

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  • 3 months later...

Here is the latest I just heard:

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/11/30/navy-will-scrap-fire-ravaged-bonhomme-richard/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=Socialflow+NAV&utm_medium=social

I would hope that some effort would be put into salvaging any machinery that was not fire damaged. But this was a boiler ship and the new ones are gas turbine, there may not much usable equipment.

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  • 7 months later...
On 7/30/2021 at 7:20 AM, Tax Man said:

Will be expensive is convicted, the guy who torched a nuclear sub got hit with $400m of restitution.

$20 a month, for the next 166,666 years?  

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the gubermint doesn't actualy want the money

they just want't the $####'s on the books

so they can allocate it to their pet programs

 

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  • 2 months later...

It looks to me like the navy is embarrassed a single sailor can destroy a ship.    Insight anybody?

It sounds like San Diego Fire Department was the first to start fighting the fire?   But after the ship was evacuated they quit.  The crew had abandoned ship without even using its functioning foam system!   

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Foam needs water.   No hose no foam.  Also Foam is used on fuel fires and fuel burning on water.   Then to make matters worse how many "Crew" were there?  My understanding is that not many at all.   I really need to read the report before I go farther. 

However - Did you know the Japanese had a Battleship just blow up in a harbor during World War II?   They could not find any remnants of a torpedo.  There were no enemy aircraft around.   The US which loved to brag about any rusted old Maru's that went under said nothing.  

The Japanese blamed an enlisted man who on purpose blew up their battleship Mutsu.   He was a disgruntled enlisted man.  

The other choice was that the new  16 inch battleship rounds that had a chemical and metal anti-aircraft mix inside had caught fire and the magazine exploded. Yes the Japanese tried to shoot down airplanes with the big guns of battleships.  Didn't work. 

The US Navy has tried something called minimum manning.  This is where they put a uniform crew or civilian crew that is a fraction of the size of which was on a ship in the ______'s.  (Just name any other decade that begins with a 19 and you can fill in the answer) Minimum manning for a ship in the shipyard in the 2020's is supposedly very small.  

How many crew were assigned to this ship?   How many of those crew were actually present when the alarm sounded?  

 I would stick this enlisted man in a Marine Brig for as long as it takes for him to admit he did it.   This works for the Japanese who have a 99% conviction rate.   Those people know how to get justice. 

 

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USN Report on fire

The information on the accused arsonist will be in a different report.  

However, the Navy has cited additional questionable and admitted arson on their ships.   Some with multiple fires set at the same time.  The report indicates that the contractor on the Miami was not the only arsonist. The actual number appears to be four incidents not just the submarine in drydock.   

 

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7 hours ago, Kent H said:

Foam needs water.   No hose no foam.  Also Foam is used on fuel fires and fuel burning on water.   Then to make matters worse how many "Crew" were there?  My understanding is that not many at all.   I really need to read the report before I go farther. 

However - Did you know the Japanese had a Battleship just blow up in a harbor during World War II?   They could not find any remnants of a torpedo.  There were no enemy aircraft around.   The US which loved to brag about any rusted old Maru's that went under said nothing.  

The Japanese blamed an enlisted man who on purpose blew up their battleship Mutsu.   He was a disgruntled enlisted man.  

The other choice was that the new  16 inch battleship rounds that had a chemical and metal anti-aircraft mix inside had caught fire and the magazine exploded. Yes the Japanese tried to shoot down airplanes with the big guns of battleships.  Didn't work. 

The US Navy has tried something called minimum manning.  This is where they put a uniform crew or civilian crew that is a fraction of the size of which was on a ship in the ______'s.  (Just name any other decade that begins with a 19 and you can fill in the answer) Minimum manning for a ship in the shipyard in the 2020's is supposedly very small.  

How many crew were assigned to this ship?   How many of those crew were actually present when the alarm sounded?  

 I would stick this enlisted man in a Marine Brig for as long as it takes for him to admit he did it.   This works for the Japanese who have a 99% conviction rate.   Those people know how to get justice. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Mutsu 

Interesting story.  Seems to me the chain of command defaults to blame "a disgruntled sailor" just like the USS Iowa explosion.

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On 10/21/2021 at 8:50 AM, NaptimeAgain said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Mutsu 

Interesting story.  Seems to me the chain of command defaults to blame "a disgruntled sailor" just like the USS Iowa explosion.

That's a frank admission of poor leadership.

The Iowa turret explosion was bullshit.

FB- Doug

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