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Anyone know more than what it on the Melges site?  I didn't see a weight for the boat so my thoughts on it are on hold.  Really hate that it is a baler boat and am confused on the use of aluminum for the rig as a tapered aluminum rig is not exactly inexpensive compared to carbon.

Is this Melges eyeing up the Seascape/Beneteau 14?

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On 7/13/2020 at 12:14 PM, Foredeck Shuffle said:

Anyone know more than what it on the Melges site?  I didn't see a weight for the boat so my thoughts on it are on hold.  Really hate that it is a baler boat and am confused on the use of aluminum for the rig as a tapered aluminum rig is not exactly inexpensive compared to carbon.

Is this Melges eyeing up the Seascape/Beneteau 14?

They need to just downsize a M20 to 15ft scale and sell it. I would buy that.

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19 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Doesn't have a jib and may or may not end up with a keel so not a dinghy.

Definitively a Dinghy under the OD configuration - Non ballasted. The keel will be a recreational option , which, as anything else takes off and becomes popular, may end up racing in it's own division.

The VX Evo is a perfect option for a simple one-man sportboat dinghy, anybody 170 lbs to 240 lbs will simply love it.

 

Rod

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On 7/15/2020 at 4:26 PM, Rodfavela said:

Definitively a Dinghy under the OD configuration - Non ballasted. The keel will be a recreational option , which, as anything else takes off and becomes popular, may end up racing in it's own division.

The VX Evo is a perfect option for a simple one-man sportboat dinghy, anybody 170 lbs to 240 lbs will simply love it.

 

Rod

The Evo has been on my radar for a long time, just can't bring myself to spend Finn money. Unintentional threadjack but what's the fleet strength looking like lately?

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35 minutes ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

The Evo has been on my radar for a long time, just can't bring myself to spend Finn money. Unintentional threadjack but what's the fleet strength looking like lately?

The Finn is a much more expensive boat. Comparing apples to apples, the Finn starts at $17,500 for a Devotti in the US, then the adds on that we know we need.   The VX Evo, while not Olympic, is all up around $17,500, so there is a gap  of about $7,000 probably depending on the options.

The Fleet is slowly growing, the COVID situation has delayed a couple of sales, but we are moving and having great fun  , specially here in Texas.  Next on the agenda is finalize the class rules and publish them.

Curiously enough, we have sold a similar % of VX Evos to recreational sailors that have a passion for speed and simplicity as we have done to racers and more technical oriented sailors. The boat is a great performance daysailer as you can even throw a soft cooler with some libations and tie to the hiking strap and go just to have fun simply because the boat is just joyful to sail. Kudos to Brian Bennett for nailing it again with a great design that covers all the above.
 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rodfavela said:

The Finn is a much more expensive boat. Comparing apples to apples, the Finn starts at $17,500 for a Devotti in the US, then the adds on that we know we need.   The VX Evo, while not Olympic, is all up around $17,500, so there is a gap  of about $7,000 probably depending on the options.

The Fleet is slowly growing, the COVID situation has delayed a couple of sales, but we are moving and having great fun  , specially here in Texas.  Next on the agenda is finalize the class rules and publish them.

Curiously enough, we have sold a similar % of VX Evos to recreational sailors that have a passion for speed and simplicity as we have done to racers and more technical oriented sailors. The boat is a great performance daysailer as you can even throw a soft cooler with some libations and tie to the hiking strap and go just to have fun simply because the boat is just joyful to sail. Kudos to Brian Bennett for nailing it again with a great design that covers all the above.
 

 

I'm intimately familiar with Finn campaign costs, my issue is tying up close to $30,000 in singlehanded dinghies, regardless of how well designed they are.

How many hulls are in the U.S.?

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Been sitting on the fence too. Great video, btw. Vipers took me away from displacement boats, and the VXone looked perfect, but no fleets in the PNW. (Still want one though.) For singlehanding Evo ticks all the boxes, but still no fleets. Y'all need to aggressively market these things to clubs. They seem to be such great boats, but I have only sailed the viper cause that's all we got. Think you will ever make it this way, for at least a demo, after world war c of course?

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1 hour ago, Varan said:

Been sitting on the fence too. Great video, btw. Vipers took me away from displacement boats, and the VXone looked perfect, but no fleets in the PNW. (Still want one though.) For singlehanding Evo ticks all the boxes, but still no fleets. Y'all need to aggressively market these things to clubs. They seem to be such great boats, but I have only sailed the viper cause that's all we got. Think you will ever make it this way, for at least a demo, after world war c of course?

The VX -1 is an awesome boat. I would say the best all around sailing machine of my experience. Needs more elbow room in the galley though, there isn't really space to make French Toast. But hot damn, it is really fun to sail.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Varan said:

Been sitting on the fence too. Great video, btw. Vipers took me away from displacement boats, and the VXone looked perfect, but no fleets in the PNW. (Still want one though.) For singlehanding Evo ticks all the boxes, but still no fleets. Y'all need to aggressively market these things to clubs. They seem to be such great boats, but I have only sailed the viper cause that's all we got. Think you will ever make it this way, for at least a demo, after world war c of course?

Need to bring in newcomers to the sport. Just selling to clubs is going to create political infighting with existing classes.

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3 hours ago, Varan said:

Been sitting on the fence too. Great video, btw. Vipers took me away from displacement boats, and the VXone looked perfect, but no fleets in the PNW. (Still want one though.) For singlehanding Evo ticks all the boxes, but still no fleets. Y'all need to aggressively market these things to clubs. They seem to be such great boats, but I have only sailed the viper cause that's all we got. Think you will ever make it this way, for at least a demo, after world war c of course?

Varan, right on!

Yes, we actually have a plan to start migrating VX Evos to the West before September. There are few VX Ones in the West coast...however there are so many great venues so far apart that they are scattered, but we are working on our conquest of the West. 

The Viper is a great boat and I think you will really appreciate the what the VX One and VX Evo have to offer.

Note: the VX Evo is probable the best monohull I have sailed that is in fact very enjoyable in light air, so the fun factor starts very early on. Once the wind picks up is completely another level.

 

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Melges delivered 6 boats on Friday to Little Egg Harbor Yacht Club on LBI NJ. 

We sail E scows so going fast was non negotiable.  We wanted something simple at a price point that would appeal to younger sailors not ready to spend what it takes to campaign an E.  With all the covid restrictions the time was right for a husband/wife or parent/child option for sailing too.  It took 4 weeks to convince 5 owners to step up with deposits and the boats were delivered about 8 weeks after the melges announcement.  The boats are impressive out of the box and short of adding a water bottle holder I think the crew at Melges thought of everything.  

Day 1 was light and the boat was easy to sail single or double handed.  My wife hadn't sailed for a few years and the boat was stable and not intimidating at all.  Day 2 had a nice seabreeze in the 12-15 knot range.  The boat was comfortable to hike up wind and launching the chute was easy with the launcher.  Under the chute the boat really lights up and rips.  On the E the acceleration is impressive as it builds momentum.  The M15 reacts quickly to puffs and we were steering aggressively to keep the apparent wind in the kite.  It was really fun!  No speed or compass to report numbers but ill circle back with those in a week or two.

I will admit that there was a moment where i questioned my sanity ordering a boat I had never sailed.   Convincing others to come along for the adventure was a huge leap of faith.  We could not be happier with the boats now that they are here.  Hit me up here with questions and i'll respond.   

DSC_4371 (1).JPG

DSC_4419.JPG

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On 7/18/2020 at 9:39 PM, Wavedancer II said:

20 knots in that video?

I don't think it was blowing 20 knots, may be a puff at the beginning. The friend who took the video indicated that, but I don't think is accurate.

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Fretz, thanks so much for the action report and the pics. Has anybody flipped one yet?

When I saw that the NEW!! Melges 15 was single bottomed like club 420s etc etc I kinda lost interest, but I think there could be a good place for it. A simple two-person hiking centerboarder with an asymmetric, that was shaped and sized such that the size/weight of the crew were less of a deciding factor, could be a really fun (and therefor popular?) boat. It's a nice looking boat.... not ultramodern, yeah, so.... and the ergonomics look decent.

I'd like to give one a try. Long way from getting anything going here, though.

FB- Doug

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I like the single bottom as you feel like you are in a boat vs on it.  The anderson bailers are the extra large ones and there are flaps in the transom to let water out.  We have not flipped yet but well probably do it this weekend on purpose to see how it goes.  2 boats were dropped off in the outerbanks on the trip to NJ...  Like you our issue is depth.  We need something that draws less than 3' and has a durable dagger board for the occasional sand bar.  I think the boat will do well here for many factors but the draft is what got us to commit to the initial 6 boats.

 

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Boat looks fine for what it is. Not every platform needs to be cutting edge tech.

Can you describe how time consuming the rigging process is from transport to ready to launch? Can one person step the mast, or does it take two? 

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1 hour ago, Stachel said:

Boat looks fine for what it is. Not every platform needs to be cutting edge tech.

Can you describe how time consuming the rigging process is from transport to ready to launch? Can one person step the mast, or does it take two? 

The 1st time we rigged it was a group effort.  We had to get them off a 10 boat  trailer and assemble the rigs.  Now that its all together id guess that you could be mast up and rigged well under 30 min.  The next time I rig it ill try putting the mast up solo too.  

 

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The best hiking platform I have ever had the pleasure to sail is the 59er.  Open transom and double bottomed with considerable flare for extending weight outboard.

The Melges looks like it's trying to do the bevel thing (first appeared on Tasar?)  at least it doesn't have a thwart. 

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19 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Another b class cat?

I guess it fits that rule, never really thought about it.  They were designed and built in the early-mid 2000's, but being carbon/nomex prepreg, they weren't cheap and Marstom didn't sell a lot of them.  They are seeing a new life and being rebuilt into really cool foiling boats. https://vampire-project.com/

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  • 11 months later...

Does anyone have any experience sailing the Melges 15 singlehanded without the jib?  Have does the boat behave?  Also,  I know there is a short video showing Eddie Cox flying the chute solo, but realistically how challenging is it (I.e. while it’s clearly POSSIBLE, the question is the degree of difficulty/sanity level required)?  Finally, any idea how many boats they’ve sold to date?  Thx!

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On 7/3/2021 at 11:37 AM, Rpm17 said:

Does anyone have any experience sailing the Melges 15 singlehanded without the jib?  Have does the boat behave?  Also,  I know there is a short video showing Eddie Cox flying the chute solo, but realistically how challenging is it (I.e. while it’s clearly POSSIBLE, the question is the degree of difficulty/sanity level required)?  Finally, any idea how many boats they’ve sold to date?  Thx!

I'd love to hear the answer to your questions.  The only video is of some dude sailing in 5 knots of wind on flat water.

I'd love to see it singlehanded in 15+

 

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Ive sailed single handed with main only and its fine at 12-15.  I've flown the chute solo and its fun but a bit of a handful when the wind is up at 15. 

Double handed the boats really shine at 15+.  Last I heard Melges has sold north of 200 boats.  Were racing them 2 up and they are tons of fun.  If you are anywhere near the New Jersey shore you can come take my boat for a sail and draw your own conclusions.

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On 7/17/2020 at 11:25 PM, fastyacht said:

Need to bring in newcomers to the sport. Just selling to clubs is going to create political infighting with existing classes.

There are always exceptions to the rule but clubs are the usually the worst group to work with.  If there are existing OD's they will fight actively to keep their turf and the tactics will have no bounds and go beyond meeting room acrimony.  Annapolis for example is full of this.

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10 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:
On 7/17/2020 at 11:25 PM, fastyacht said:

Need to bring in newcomers to the sport. Just selling to clubs is going to create political infighting with existing classes.

There are always exceptions to the rule but clubs are the usually the worst group to work with.  If there are existing OD's they will fight actively to keep their turf and the tactics will have no bounds and go beyond meeting room acrimony.  Annapolis for example is full of this.

oh yes, ^this^ in spades.

Class leaders in current one-design classes act on the theory that sailing participation is THE zero-sum game, and any oxygen given to a new class no matter how different, is sucking the very life out of their own beloved boats.

You would not believe the underhanded skullduggery that went into preventing regatta invites, for example. Even between established classes.

Well, we got our revenge in the long run because those classes and events/regattas have mostly died out, now.

FB- Doug

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

oh yes, ^this^ in spades.

Class leaders in current one-design classes act on the theory that sailing participation is THE zero-sum game, and any oxygen given to a new class no matter how different, is sucking the very life out of their own beloved boats.

You would not believe the underhanded skullduggery that went into preventing regatta invites, for example. Even between established classes.

Well, we got our revenge in the long run because those classes and events/regattas have mostly died out, now.

FB- Doug

Maybe your experience is different but on the Chesapeake Bay the result has been the loss of new classes while the old classes continue to die and participation all around diminishes.  Whereas I've noted that some people that buy a hot boat sometimes have and race in more than one class and as they age, some "graduate" to calmer classes as their knees, ankles, and hips require.  The only air that is sucked out is from the collective, but some cannot see that far.

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2 hours ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

Maybe your experience is different but on the Chesapeake Bay the result has been the loss of new classes while the old classes continue to die and participation all around diminishes.  Whereas I've noted that some people that buy a hot boat sometimes have and race in more than one class and as they age, some "graduate" to calmer classes as their knees, ankles, and hips require.  The only air that is sucked out is from the collective, but some cannot see that far.

I have been asking local clubs to review their membership past and present.  I'd like to specifically target those ex jr  program sailors who are now working and have not come back to the waterfront.  That info is guarded closely so its been a slow road.  Even within my own club we don't necessarily track that info.  If the parents are active members but the kids haven't committed to coming back were hoping the M15 could be the fun they didn't know they were looking for.   

I've made countless offers to bring a boat and run demos locally and the response rate is surprisingly low.  The fear is that something new will dilute what's already there so we continually try to expand the pie vs cutting it into ever smaller slices.  For the most part the new owners locally were non boat owners previously so were successful so far.  We have a few who fit the target 20/30 age group too.  The one thing I cant control is the sailor who never liked the existing fleet so anything new is appealing.  Too many of those and any class will be seen as a threat to the status quo.   

SBYC has a member owned boat and a demo for the last two weeks.  The Jr sailing coaches are taking kids for rides and trying to show those who are not engaged with the program that there are other options to sail. The 15 can be sailed with 3 kids which seems to be a lot of fun for those who what a more social experience that the existing opti laser track.   

The boats are pretty well disbursed Nationwide with local dealer support.  www.melges15.com has a class map and you could probably find a boat to check out.  While no boat is perfect i believe that Melges has really hit a home run here and the M15 will inspire people to step up to more challenging classes in the future.  If have a fleet of these exist its only a matter of time before someone has the disposable income to think that racing an E scow, M24 VX1 etc is the next logical move.  

If you are near LBI NJ im happy to put you in my boat for a sail.  I'd step off my own boat for our Sunday fleet racing, 12-15 boats,  if you were willing to set up a demo at your own club and work to establish a fleet.  Its the right boat for our needs and if you sail it I think you will agree.

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As a kid and young adult racing in the NJ / PA scene, There were large starts with Comet, GP-14, Sunfish, Laser and at SH Cougar Cats, other clubs Hobie 16, and respectable numbers of Celebrity, Lightning, DS, and a smattering of many other classes. Only 20 years before that you would have seen Dusters. They were gone. Now GP-14 are gone. What of the others?

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The Lighting, Thistle, and Flying Scott are still super active (in modern terms, down from historic levels) in the three(ish) person classes  The double handed 2 adult or multiple kids has been a tough nut to crack and seems to forever be either too fragmented or too underpowered for adults. V15s came and went nothing else has even seemed to stick that long.  I wish the class success. My home dinghy club is mostly Lasers and Sunfish now, but as has often been said sooo many sailors started historically with "Do you want to go sailing?" rather then the junior programs we see today. With the sigle handed classes unless the kids race with the adults in lasers it's a dying proposition.  I think we're losing a good chunk of sailors to young-adult debt, then families and they never come back...  The Juniors feed college, then full stop after graduation for a lot of young sailors that never get drawn into the one-design or big boat scene. You don't have to steal sailors, from other classes just ask a young adult, Do you want to go sailing? Some are too cool to crew, but some you will convert into owners  and lifetime sailors.  We have a strong community sailing fleet of cruising daysailor type boats (hunters, precisions), that fills a nitch to keep people sailing affordably but a double handed racer would be a good addition if we could afford it. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Some video from the M15 racing in Beach Haven NJ.  Yesterdays skippers ran from age 12 to 60+.  Several parent child and husband wife combos.  Top speed was 18 with some nice rides holding at 15+.  Wind was holding at 15 with some nice long duration puffs approaching 20.  The boat continues to impress all who sail it especially when the breeze is up.  

Were keeping the races short at about 15-20 minutes as this keeps the finishes tight and the last place boat doesn't feel out of touch with the leaders.   Yesterday we completed 5 races over about 2 hours 30 min from dock to dock.  We have a demo boat and would like to facilitate anyone interested in the boat to check it out.  

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

This was a fun day.  it was blowing 20+ so our usual racing was canceled which was the right call.  A few of us decided to go out anyway.   While the wind wasn't an issue the waves were a challenge.  

On 8/14-15 we host the Down Bay regatta and should see 18 M15's on the line.  If you are in NJ and curious about the boats that would be a good one to check out.  

 

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1 hour ago, Speng said:

How does it compare to Beneteau 14? It's 2021 and the USA has two 2-person, sit-in, asymmetrical dinghies you can buy...

Well, there's about a 100 Johnson 18s floating around there somewhere........ :rolleyes:

FB- Doug

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21 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, there's about a 100 Johnson 18s floating around there somewhere........ :rolleyes:

FB- Doug

Yes but 

(1) my point was that we (after these types of boats became the standard everywhere else in the modern world) that the USA has two to choose from that aren't a scow, catamaran or trap skiff. Not that there's anything wrong with any of these but they're not mass market like a sail-with-the-wife-or-kids, sit-in, two-person dinghy. 

(2) also the Johnson 18 (I've only ever seen one on the hard) looks like a big boat for two larger, stronger guys.

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19 hours ago, Thistle1678 said:

Curious enough to do a quick comparison Surprisingly similar, M-15 is heavier, with a slightly bigger kite 

m-15-first14.png

80lb difference in displacement is significant although they're not exactly talking about the same thing. For reference:

RS200:

LOA: 13ft

BOA: 6ft

Hull/Sailing weight: 172/251 lb

main/jib/kite: 98.3/29.7/89 sq ft

470:

LOA/BOA: 15ft 5 in/5ft 7 in

Hull weight: 260lb

Main/jib/kite: 98.2/38.5/140 sq ft

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On 8/9/2021 at 12:58 PM, Speng said:

How does it compare to Beneteau 14? It's 2021 and the USA has two 2-person, sit-in, asymmetrical dinghies you can buy...

Has anyone in the USA actually seen or received a quote for First/Seascape 14?  I tried about a year ago, but got nowhere with 4-5 dealers near me.  Presumably, they were moving larger boats with much larger margins during the COVID boom.  The closest I got to honesty was the dealer who said something to the effect of needing to have enough ordered to fill a container or the shipping fee would be enormous.

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1 hour ago, PurpleOnion said:

Has anyone in the USA actually seen or received a quote for First/Seascape 14?  I tried about a year ago, but got nowhere with 4-5 dealers near me.  Presumably, they were moving larger boats with much larger margins during the COVID boom.  The closest I got to honesty was the dealer who said something to the effect of needing to have enough ordered to fill a container or the shipping fee would be enormous.

I almost wrote a check in 2018 at the Annapolis boat show and they said it would arrive in about 3-4 months.  But now shipping containers are $12,000 whereas they were around $3,000-$4,000 in 2018.  I would ask a large Beneteau dealer like the one in Annapolis to see if it can be shipped with other stuff and/or boats coming this way.

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4 hours ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

I almost wrote a check in 2018 at the Annapolis boat show and they said it would arrive in about 3-4 months.  But now shipping containers are $12,000 whereas they were around $3,000-$4,000 in 2018.  I would ask a large Beneteau dealer like the one in Annapolis to see if it can be shipped with other stuff and/or boats coming this way.

the seascape 14 announcement in 2017 looked compelling and really got me thinking about what a 3 sail 2 person class could be where I sail.  3 years later there was still nothing concrete for the US.  I had considered a lot of legacy designs that were far from exciting but really wanted an A sail that wasn't intimidating for the average club sailor.  The 14 still looks great and I'm sure its a blast.

Melges announced the 15 last spring and I was unloading a trailer with 6 boats 9 weeks later.  That was good enough to get people to write checks and were still having fun with more on the way.  

 

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51 minutes ago, Fretz said:

the seascape 14 announcement in 2017 looked compelling and really got me thinking about what a 3 sail 2 person class could be where I sail.  3 years later there was still nothing concrete for the US.  I had considered a lot of legacy designs that were far from exciting but really wanted an A sail that wasn't intimidating for the average club sailor.  The 14 still looks great and I'm sure its a blast.

Melges announced the 15 last spring and I was unloading a trailer with 6 boats 9 weeks later.  That was good enough to get people to write checks and were still having fun with more on the way.  

 

I don't think too many people would argue against the call you made.  Different approaches by different manufacturers with vastly different results.

 

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1 hour ago, Fretz said:

the seascape 14 announcement in 2017 looked compelling and really got me thinking about what a 3 sail 2 person class could be where I sail.  3 years later there was still nothing concrete for the US.  I had considered a lot of legacy designs that were far from exciting but really wanted an A sail that wasn't intimidating for the average club sailor.  The 14 still looks great and I'm sure its a blast.

Melges announced the 15 last spring and I was unloading a trailer with 6 boats 9 weeks later.  That was good enough to get people to write checks and were still having fun with more on the way.  

 

A case of "If you build it, they will come"

FB- Doug

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11 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

A case of "If you build it, they will come"

FB- Doug

Can't get past the bailers.  No bailers for any current or future boat.

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19 hours ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

I almost wrote a check in 2018 at the Annapolis boat show and they said it would arrive in about 3-4 months.  But now shipping containers are $12,000 whereas they were around $3,000-$4,000 in 2018.  I would ask a large Beneteau dealer like the one in Annapolis to see if it can be shipped with other stuff and/or boats coming this way.

That's unfortunate...:( I don't know how many Beneteau dealers there are in the USA and I guess they're not required to maintain dealer stock? For a boat that size they should be otherwise they wouldn't and then you don't have any demo boats and then they can't sell. The home office should realize they look stupid promoting a boat here that their dealers won't try to sell because the the profit on even a container full of 14s is probably less than one Oceanis. 

if you were a big group buyer then I suppose you could order direct from Europe, if you could fit a dozen in a container it'd be worth the effort but why bother when Melges has a boat available to sell.

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2 hours ago, Speng said:

That's unfortunate...:( I don't know how many Beneteau dealers there are in the USA and I guess they're not required to maintain dealer stock? For a boat that size they should be otherwise they wouldn't and then you don't have any demo boats and then they can't sell. The home office should realize they look stupid promoting a boat here that their dealers won't try to sell because the the profit on even a container full of 14s is probably less than one Oceanis. 

if you were a big group buyer then I suppose you could order direct from Europe, if you could fit a dozen in a container it'd be worth the effort but why bother when Melges has a boat available to sell.

That all sounds on the mark.  Maybe if it shows back up at one of the boat shows you might be able to get the one sitting on the docks next to the dealers who will not talk to you about it?

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Of the 18 entries in the M15 fleet at the Down Bay Regatta in NJ...
 
8 were family boats husband/wife or parent/child
3 were full Jr sailors teams
4 drivers were Jr sailors 
There were 3 female drivers and 5 female crew.  
5 of the top 10 finishers has a woman on board.  
2 of the top 5 boats had female skippers.
 
Full Results
 
link to photos
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/14/2020 at 8:43 PM, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

M17-5.jpg

Since when has the M20 had a pram bow?

The m17 was one of the worst boats ever designed. It has little to no room for anyone over 5'8. We used to sail them at the wmya regattas but they are pretty much a dead class.

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  • 1 month later...

Sailed one for the first time this weekend and loved it. It wasn't over technical but still had great feel and speed. To me its the perfect club racing boat, easy enough for inexperienced sailors to pick up but still fun for the advanced folks. Its a great boat to market to the millennial generation (myself) it's reasonably priced at 13k and a new set of sails is around 3k, I've looked into getting into keelboats however the coast of new sets of sails on the Melges 24 and J/70 has kept me out. Anyway I'll be fighting to get a fleet going at my club as this boat will fill the adult fleet racing void we currently have.

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9 hours ago, LTFF said:

Sailed one for the first time this weekend and loved it. It wasn't over technical but still had great feel and speed. To me its the perfect club racing boat, easy enough for inexperienced sailors to pick up but still fun for the advanced folks. Its a great boat to market to the millennial generation (myself) it's reasonably priced at 13k and a new set of sails is around 3k, I've looked into getting into keelboats however the coast of new sets of sails on the Melges 24 and J/70 has kept me out. Anyway I'll be fighting to get a fleet going at my club as this boat will fill the adult fleet racing void we currently have.

Did you sail in the NJ regatta?

 

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This weekend we held our fall regatta for the M15 in NJ.  Forecast was a little brisk.  Our only sailable day was going to be Saturday with a full NE'er blowing all weekend long.  Saturday dawned with more wind than forecasted.  12 boats ventured out in 20-25 and hoped for the best.  

The steep chop was a bigger problem than the wind as the boats were often going over one wave and through the next both upwind and down.  There were more capsizes in 4 races than we have seen in 2 seasons of club racing.  75% of the fleet went swimming with some going over several times.  Needless to say a lot of mud was rinsed off of mast tips and sails.   The boats handled the conditions far better than the sailors did.  Though teams elected to retire there were no breakdowns that forced them too.  There were 3 teams sailing the boats for the 1st time so not everyone was a well practiced team either.  

Our max speed for the day was 20.7mph and we were making every effort to head the boat down and burn off speed in puffs.   We'll be talking about Saturday's sailing years from now for sure.  If you are considering a 2 person boat the M15 is proving to be as durable as it is entertaining.  

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3 hours ago, clownsailor said:

thats just a m-16

M16 does't have a kite, so it isn't really a downsized M20.

What that basically is is the M17, which is such a healthy class that they've skipped how many regatta seasons?

We do NOT need yet another 16 to 20 foot sloop-rigged scow class to sit and flounder. We just need to get the existing one (the I-20) into a state where the class is active and successful again. The difference between dealing with a 16 foot sloop-rigged scow with a kite and a 20 foot sloop-rigged scow with a kite is almost nil.

For those who aren't aware, an I-20 is an M20 with an asymmetrical spinnaker. Newer ones have foiled rudders too. 

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On 9/1/2021 at 7:32 AM, clownsailor said:

The m17 was one of the worst boats ever designed. It has little to no room for anyone over 5'8. We used to sail them at the wmya regattas but they are pretty much a dead class.

Worst boats ever designed? I wouldn't go that far. Too much boat for the maximum allowable crew weight? Yeah, probably, but I can think of plenty of designs that sucked a lot harder than the M17.

The M17 tried to be a modernized I-20, and ultimately it proved to be faster than the I-20. But it also proved to be harder to sail, required more athletic crew, and was much more fragile. Pick your poison. The I-20 has proven to hold up well with heavy crews in big wind, while the M17 doesn't, so there's that. 

I have sailed them, and it was fun, but coming from an I-20, I didn't really think it was considerably better or worse. Just different. 

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On 10/11/2021 at 5:02 PM, Fretz said:

This weekend we held our fall regatta for the M15 in NJ.  Forecast was a little brisk.  Our only sailable day was going to be Saturday with a full NE'er blowing all weekend long.  Saturday dawned with more wind than forecasted.  12 boats ventured out in 20-25 and hoped for the best.  

The steep chop was a bigger problem than the wind as the boats were often going over one wave and through the next both upwind and down.  There were more capsizes in 4 races than we have seen in 2 seasons of club racing.  75% of the fleet went swimming with some going over several times.  Needless to say a lot of mud was rinsed off of mast tips and sails.   The boats handled the conditions far better than the sailors did.  Though teams elected to retire there were no breakdowns that forced them too.  There were 3 teams sailing the boats for the 1st time so not everyone was a well practiced team either.  

Our max speed for the day was 20.7mph and we were making every effort to head the boat down and burn off speed in puffs.   We'll be talking about Saturday's sailing years from now for sure.  If you are considering a 2 person boat the M15 is proving to be as durable as it is entertaining.  

I've seen the boat and watched a few folks race them from the VX One I was on.  The 15's are great little boats and on my radar for when my son gets a little older...

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3 hours ago, JM1366 said:

M16 does't have a kite, so it isn't really a downsized M20.

What that basically is is the M17, which is such a healthy class that they've skipped how many regatta seasons?

We do NOT need yet another 16 to 20 foot sloop-rigged scow class to sit and flounder. We just need to get the existing one (the I-20) into a state where the class is active and successful again. The difference between dealing with a 16 foot sloop-rigged scow with a kite and a 20 foot sloop-rigged scow with a kite is almost nil.

For those who aren't aware, an I-20 is an M20 with an asymmetrical spinnaker. Newer ones have foiled rudders too. 

The M-16 did have a kite and it was called a Superscow dare we forget. No scow in the 16-20 range will make it unless the right person is selling it, the people that could sell them are not The M15 will make it though and besides, this is their post and we should talk about M15's and how they will be the premier under 20 ft boat of choice. Best of luck.

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4 hours ago, ILYAScow said:

The M-16 did have a kite and it was called a Superscow dare we forget. No scow in the 16-20 range will make it unless the right person is selling it, the people that could sell them are not The M15 will make it though and besides, this is their post and we should talk about M15's and how they will be the premier under 20 ft boat of choice. Best of luck.

Agreed, but I'm not sure that the M15 vying for the same market. I see it as fixing a lot of the things that suck about 420s and I look forward to seeing where it goes.

Out of curiosity, how tough are the hulls built compared to a 420? I've always felt that 420s are a little on the fragile side, this thing any better in that regard?

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The M15 only has to be as good as what the expectations of the buyers are. They have boats being built and people are enjoying them. The other boats or classes you mention are too concerned with politics it would seem which in the end is the death of all sailboat classes. The M17, I20, M20, and M16, all got mired in politics it seems. Its the right boat at the right time. It will absorb the majority of the scow classes in the next few years so be prepared.

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7 minutes ago, ILYAScow said:

The M15 only has to be as good as what the expectations of the buyers are. They have boats being built and people are enjoying them. The other boats or classes you mention are too concerned with politics it would seem which in the end is the death of all sailboat classes. The M17, I20, M20, and M16, all got mired in politics it seems. Its the right boat at the right time. It will absorb the majority of the scow classes in the next few years so be prepared.

??

It seems to me that scows are for guys who love scows more than sailing, the only one which I'd even bother with is the E and they're difficult and expensive to campaign. I sailed an I-20 years ago at a regatta I went to with in our Johnson 18, my wife sat in it and got right back out again, I took it out for a brief spin and found it cramped and un-ergonomic, the steering was kinda quirky. Of course, I don't love scows above all and don't have a lot of interest in learning to lean exactly the right amount, and having stuff on the boat that doesn't work unless everything else is set just right.

Scow sailors hated the Johnson 18 because they were afraid of the same thing... a boat that was not so much of a PITA as most scows coming along and superceding their babies. It didn't, partly because of an aggressive campaign against it and partly because it was too expensive for a 2-person centerboarder. But I doubt the Melges 15 will do it either, no matter how good of a boat it is.

FB- Doug

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23 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

??

It seems to me that scows are for guys who love scows more than sailing, the only one which I'd even bother with is the E and they're difficult and expensive to campaign. I sailed an I-20 years ago at a regatta I went to with in our Johnson 18, my wife sat in it and got right back out again, I took it out for a brief spin and found it cramped and un-ergonomic, the steering was kinda quirky. Of course, I don't love scows above all and don't have a lot of interest in learning to lean exactly the right amount, and having stuff on the boat that doesn't work unless everything else is set just right.

Scow sailors hated the Johnson 18 because they were afraid of the same thing... a boat that was not so much of a PITA as most scows coming along and superceding their babies. It didn't, partly because of an aggressive campaign against it and partly because it was too expensive for a 2-person centerboarder. But I doubt the Melges 15 will do it either, no matter how good of a boat it is.

FB- Doug

 

My experience with scows (limited to the last 10 years) has been pretty different. The lake I started sailing on 10 years ago sails scows because they are a strong one design class and crazy stable platform for taking a couple guests out for casual sailing. That makes it a nice inland racer/cruiser dinghy.

But the M Scow fleet is struggling, and I think not only on our small lake. The cat rig of a C-Scow doesn't give much love to the crew.

So our club is pretty excited about the Melges 15 and 11 of us have ordered new boats for the spring. Sure, familiarity with the Melges name helped, but I think that's more a function of a boat manufacturer giving some attention to our small inland lake than it is scow-loving.

Of the 11 new 15s headed to our lake, six are being bought by MC sailors who are interested in sailing with a partner more often and three are being bought by M scow sailors. (Some of the MC sailors are switching over, some are keeping both boats.)

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39 minutes ago, jbfraser said:

 

My experience with scows (limited to the last 10 years) has been pretty different. The lake I started sailing on 10 years ago sails scows because they are a strong one design class and crazy stable platform for taking a couple guests out for casual sailing. That makes it a nice inland racer/cruiser dinghy.

But the M Scow fleet is struggling, and I think not only on our small lake. The cat rig of a C-Scow doesn't give much love to the crew.

So our club is pretty excited about the Melges 15 and 11 of us have ordered new boats for the spring. Sure, familiarity with the Melges name helped, but I think that's more a function of a boat manufacturer giving some attention to our small inland lake than it is scow-loving.

Of the 11 new 15s headed to our lake, six are being bought by MC sailors who are interested in sailing with a partner more often and three are being bought by M scow sailors. (Some of the MC sailors are switching over, some are keeping both boats.)

You must be with the Lake Harriot fleet starting up in the Twin cities. When the best MC sailor in the state/class switches boats and sells his MC you know that it probably has some traction. Like I said you it will replace the scow fleets as it is the right boat. If you can not get an E scow for now two years wait, all that effort is being put into the M15 program. There are now probably 40 plus boats in Minnesota from the sounds of it. Have fun.

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19 hours ago, JM1366 said:

M16 does't have a kite, so it isn't really a downsized M20.

What that basically is is the M17, which is such a healthy class that they've skipped how many regatta seasons?

We do NOT need yet another 16 to 20 foot sloop-rigged scow class to sit and flounder. We just need to get the existing one (the I-20) into a state where the class is active and successful again. The difference between dealing with a 16 foot sloop-rigged scow with a kite and a 20 foot sloop-rigged scow with a kite is almost nil.

For those who aren't aware, an I-20 is an M20 with an asymmetrical spinnaker. Newer ones have foiled rudders too. 

i agree i think scows between the 15-20ft range get a little funky.

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On 10/20/2021 at 8:58 AM, Steam Flyer said:

It seems to me that scows are for guys who love scows more than sailing

Yeah, scows are very crappy dinghies. I especially hate how tippy they are at the dock. It's like stepping onto a canoe. They are slow as molasses on the water, especially in light flukey air like we get here in the midwest. The worst part is the mandatory use of the trapeze for both skipper and crew. Scows: Yechh!!!

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2 hours ago, DougH said:

Yeah, scows are very crappy dinghies. I especially hate how tippy they are at the dock. It's like stepping onto a canoe. They are slow as molasses on the water, especially in light flukey air like we get here in the midwest. The worst part is the mandatory use of the trapeze for both skipper and crew. Scows: Yechh!!!

Did the Melges 15 sailors come into a thread about your scows and shit all over it?

FWIW I've sailed a bunch of scows, somewhere in my closet are some MC trophies and E crew trophies. I'd probably sail an E again, depending on who asked me. But in general, not my favorite and I don't agree with fanbois from one special type of boat strutting around convinced they're God's gift to sailing. Not from catamaran sailors, not from Olympic class sailors (maybe from Olympic medallists, a little), not from offshore sailors, etc etc. There is no type of sailing or sailboat that is utterly superior to all other types.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

FB- Doug

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I've had some serious fun on an E-Scow in the 90's.  The design is not my cup of tea though I would buy a Skeeta (foiling scow dinghy) if I could put a larger sail on it.

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8 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Did the Melges 15 sailors come into a thread about your scows and shit all over it?

No but you sure shit all over the scows: "scow fanboys"? "God's gift to sailing(sarcasm)"?  "It seems to me that scows are for guys who love scows more than sailing"? "I don't love scows above all and don't have a lot of interest in learning to lean exactly the right amount, and having stuff on the boat that doesn't work unless everything else is set just right"?  "a boat that was not so much of a PITA as most scows"?

I'm going to push back on sheet like that every time dude.

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"I don't love scows above all..." Implying that anyone who sails a scow does. Nonsense. I like scows and other non-scows equally well. Same can be said for many/most scow sailors.  

"...don't have a lot of interest in learning to lean exactly the right amount..." Probably the only defendable statement you made about scows that I quoted. I take that one back. Though I will comment that the required heel when sailing to windward has quite a bit of 'inexactness'. Yes, you need to heel the boat to reduce wetted hull in the water and take best advantage of the angled-out leeboards. But there is a fairly large range of heel that works just fine. Regardless, it is your right to not like having to heel a boat when going to windward.

But love scows above all, scow fanboys, God's gift to sailing, and love scows more than sailing is really way over the top.

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58 minutes ago, DougH said:

"I don't love scows above all..." Implying that anyone who sails a scow does. Nonsense. I like scows and other non-scows equally well. Same can be said for many/most scow sailors.  

"...don't have a lot of interest in learning to lean exactly the right amount..." Probably the only defendable statement you made about scows that I quoted. I take that one back. Though I will comment that the required heel when sailing to windward has quite a bit of 'inexactness'. Yes, you need to heel the boat to reduce wetted hull in the water and take best advantage of the angled-out leeboards. But there is a fairly large range of heel that works just fine. Regardless, it is your right to not like having to heel a boat when going to windward.

But love scows above all, scow fanboys, God's gift to sailing, and love scows more than sailing is really way over the top.

Why don't you go post a big rant on the superiority of scows, over in Multihull Anarchy? They'll love you, really.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Why don't you go post a big rant on the superiority of scows, over in Multihull Anarchy?

Because I think non-scow boats are cool too. I don't refer to them as catamaran fanbois that think catamarans are God's gift to sailing, or other bs like that.

I grew up sailing the family LIghtning. I still think Lightnings are one of the coolest dinghies. So many great choices in the dinghy world.

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On 8/9/2021 at 3:59 PM, Thistle1678 said:

Curious enough to do a quick comparison Surprisingly similar, M-15 is heavier, with a slightly bigger kite 

m-15-first14.png

Wait wait wait. This boat is being considered for "boat of the year" with same hull weight as a club 420, and the same upwind sail area? in 1978?
Isn't this going to put their ideal crew weight down around 220-240 then? That's me plus my clothes, lunch, and two beers.

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