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I'm willing to bet there are several pro football quarterbacks that couldn't calculate the needed force and angles required to shoot a football sized projectile as accurately as they could throw it - does that mean they don't know what they are doing? 

And apparently experience was a great teacher when it came to developing stress form ply hulls. 

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With wings   My Covid lockdown model, Inspiration from G32, same dimensions 32' x 8'

I've got a nice winter home for my G-32 this year, complete with video monitoring. The deer seemed pretty interested. https://video.nest.com/clip/0b7e37e49a8342e2ba3dc1e6549cd4a3.mp4

We got G2 in and out of the paint shop of 69 North.  Some new best friends, Gary Gomes and Claudio (the artist) had all kinds of opinions on our color selections, allowed us some shop time before to g

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6 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

 

Aren't stressform plywood hull shapes somewhat limited by the plywood's ability to produce compound curves? 

Is there a hull generating program that only allows hull shapes that can be created using the stressed plywood technique? 

  

 

No there isn't. The Tornado is another boat that was built by eye and drawn after the fact. I have never built a tortured plywood hull, but I want to. 

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On 7/22/2020 at 4:02 PM, ProaSailor said:

My proa hull yesterday was a hasty sketch using the first "proa hull generator" tool I found among a handful I've written.  Dimensions and displacement without regard to hull shape, so today I started to look at using the line drawing from sailboatdata.com to get a more accurate shape and quickly noticed several things.

  1. The G32 has a transom, not a canoe stern, which means the waterplane aft is wider (and draft is less).  (and I need a different hull generator tool!)
  2. Profile view shows deepest draft forward of side windows, near ballast tank?  Draft appears to be deeper than the eight inch spec (0.67 ft / 0.20 m), closer to one foot?
  3. Though not shown in end view, hull beam looks wider than 1.5 feet?  So maybe not 22:1 LB ratio?

I'm curious too about what the real PPI/waterplane numbers are for the G32.  It's a marvelous design.  Why were the molds destroyed?

This CAD hull shown below has Beam WL (Bwl) = 1.76(!), LB ratio = 18, Cp = 0.63, Waterplane Area = 39.7, PPI = 214 lbs/inch (per hull).
That's only 2.8 inches extra draft at full ballast.

G32_plan_view_2020Jul22.thumb.png.428b67597927b90fc399a54cbf94a491.png

G32_profile_view_2020Jul22.thumb.png.0f2cec06e58633c1bc26f826dff91528.png

Compare the underwater shape of the G32 hull to a Tornado, which was made using stressed ply.  The second pic illustrates the location and size of the ballast tanks. 

the third pic is a pretty good view of Adagio's AMA shape, which also appears to have a similar Nike swoop to the underwater hull shape, albeit more pronounced. 

SmartSelect_20200727-101000_Google.jpg

SmartSelect_20200727-101633_Gallery.jpg

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After looking at the Tornado hull shape Jan put the water ballast where the crew would Trapeze off the hull - If he used the Tornado as a reference.  

I believe jan just elongated the Tornado hull shape (but with less rocker than. Adagio) to focus on a making the simplest, minimal hull area possible to make the boat cheap to produce, but was probably caught a bit off guard by the required detail work needed to finish the boat - at least that's what Meade implied when we talked about it. He threw out some numbers as to how much each boat cost to build, and it was significantly more than the selling price because they never reached the break even point. They were a bargain at the retail price. 

 

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I've been lucky to know a couple multi designers and I'm certain that they used their thousands of hours on the water to create their vessels.  After the fact they have to submit to the engineers and more so to the builders to produce something that can be sold.  I'd bet most designers have to make huge compromises to get their dreams to market, probably more so with multihulls since the envelope is always being pushed to enhance performance.  

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I found an interesting article about Shuttleworth 30' trimaran ama shape tank testing and it appears that while the Amas are 13 to 1 the underwater AMA shape resembles the Nike swoop with a tapered stern which was found to be optimum all around performer. 

Yes, it's a tri and not a cat, and the boat was lost at sea - the point is the shape was studied extensively and represented the more advanced design preferences of the time. 

Yes, there's a bit of hand waving here, however if I was building a catamaran I would certainly find this paper about ama shape an interesting read. Actually, Jan's hull shape was more advanced because his bows were wave piercing.  I'm guessing he was also impressed with the SWATH boats of the 80s. Strings actually looks like a SWATH sailboat to me. 

There's a thread in Multihull anarchy about Jan's last build, Strings.  They mentioned there were no drawings for the boat as it was being built, but I think he had a pretty good idea of what he wanted it to be like. 

SmartSelect_20200727-122246_Chrome.jpg

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Janet, where did you get the photo of Jans'  houseboat/shop/mothership, talk about a styln ride.  Maybe Proa, knows of one program, it would've to generate a peel pattern based upon the spiral conical deformation of a variable stiffness substrate that is controlled during a long interval layup.   For limited me, it would be more fun to just make a hull and go play, secure in the knowledge that" perfect is the enemy of good."

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9 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

No there isn't. The Tornado is another boat that was built by eye and drawn after the fact. I have never built a tortured plywood hull, but I want to. 

Waiting for Groucho Marx to chime in on tortured ply.

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Yes, though if you read the (free) Gougeon book on wood/epoxy construction you will see some photos of very tortured Tornado hulIs.

I use Rhino for doing developable surfaces. It allows you to do both developable and non- shapes. It has good tools to tell you what part of a surface is developable, and unroll the shape onto a flat plane to create patterns.

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I've always been amazed by Frog and Sid.  

I'm really impressed with how light your boats are when completed, and by the amazing shapes you are able to make. But what impresses me the most is the lack of stringers and bulkheads in the boat compared to what I would have expected if one followed the rules of boat design that I'm vaguely familiar with. I do remember reading somewhere that adding shape to ply increases it's strength by as much as 75%, and clever guys like you must have figured it out the (lightness) scantlings through experience.. 

Moving fast in light air is super fun when the boat is built for it - I can see the beauty. I'd much rather have a boat built for light air than heavy air. I had a couple of short board windsurfers growing up, that didn't get used as often as I'd wished due to lack of needed wind. 

Your masts are especially impressive.  I may have to actually try to build one of those some day. 

Those are awesome boats! Keep up the good work :)

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On 8/3/2020 at 8:22 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Turns out hull 2 is still for sale. (I'll suggest that he buys an ad) 

FB_IMG_1596467175003.jpg

That one is quite different in lots of ways from the the production boats. I've seen tons of photos as friends of mine want to buy it. My preference would be a later boat as lots of things changed for the better. It also has rotten balsa in the cockpit floor, which is a serious question with all G-32's. Anyone who owns a G-32 who hasn't stripped the vinyl and padding from the cabin floor (including the above) doesn't know if they have a giant problem or not. The vinyl is like a vapor trap and if the front windows leak it runs into the trap.

Replacing the entire underwing panel seems like fun to me and I may be doing that to mine one day, but most people wouldn't enjoy it. My buddy in Maine is replacing the cabin floor. That's roughly 8' long and the cockpit floor adds another 5' or so. The flat part of the underwing is only 4' wide, which helps.

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Well #2 just landed at her new home.  Don Walton and I campaigned #7 No Bad Days about 20 years ago and both of us moved on to other boats, raising a family on a cruising cat in my case, Don taking an early adventure/retirement, amazing how 2 decades did not diminish our memories of the fun we had on No Bad Days.  We now have a new best friend and tons of mutual acquaintances in George Silvestri, who cared for #2 with help from Walter Greene's yard for the past 3-4 years and furnished us with a pretty complete history on the boat, although lot's to still learn.  Took us over 8 hours at the now thick Canada/US border to get her through customs- and lot's of unknown COVID related border regulations but she has safely landed in Picton, Ontario at about 1:30a.m.  Woke up this morning and a look out the window confirmed that an alien spaceship did follow me home last night..... we'll try to keep the group posted on our progress as right now we bought her mostly sight unseen but George supplied us with lot's of pics and information and Walter's yard gave her a good inspection.... haven't decided on a name yet but watch for her on a race course next season (OK we're checking out the rig as we speak to see if we can sneak in a fall sail or two).... we hope to do her history and pedigree proud.

G32Landed.thumb.jpg.e91cb661dc89a1686a5241a9600e8f34.jpg

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1 hour ago, jhallman said:

Well #2 just landed at her new home.

Cool.  Hope you don't mind that I took the liberty of rotating that image (taken with an iPhone?) and cropped it top and bottom.

G32Landed.thumb.jpg.5eb7c3023497a6393bc878f80f3ab65d.jpg

Link to full size (1.2 MB): http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2020_09/G32Landed.jpg.f36ad955819e9aa4cb2adcb3d96e0f75.jpg

Cèilidh

Description

A cèilidh or céilí is a traditional Scottish or Irish social gathering. In its most basic form, it simply means a social visit. In contemporary usage, it usually involves dancing and playing Gaelic folk music, either at a house party or a larger concert at a social hall or other community gathering place. Wikipedia
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Congratulations on the new ride to Don and ? (sorry, I forgot your name). I do hope you do get some sailing in on her this year and don't hesitate if I can help in any way.

I was supposed to be sailing right now, but the parts around here that aren't burning are under a thick blanket of smoke, so we are hunkered inside.

Thanks for the rotation Proa. The smoke must be really bad there?

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Russell, it's fall in so cal, and the leaves are turning golden.  Yesterday I had to. scrape the ashes of my Jobert 3mm. layup.   It's not the first time  I have busted my ash.   Doing a compounded ply standup for low cost fun.   The cedar sawdust I made reminded me of the old saying" the profit in wooden boatbuilding is in the sawdust".

 

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11 hours ago, jhallman said:

haven't decided on a name... 

Wait you're going to CHANGE it? What's wrong with Ceilidh?  Two of our three boats have been named "Ceilydh".  (We deliberately mis-spelled it because we liked the look of a descending "y" in the name. And it distinguished us from ones that were spelled Ceilidh.)

We attended a Ceilidh in Cape Breton. Very small community and we were treated as honoured guests and ushered to the front row where the local musicians all performed. At about 11 pm there was a break for tea, drinks, and cake. Super favourite memory.  They loved that our boat was named Ceilydh. 

People would approach our boat, look at the name, and say "How do you pronounce it?"    "Just the way it's spelt..." was my usual reply.  Of course over the radio calling the CG or a marina would be interesting. It's pronounced "Kay-Lee".  When we would spell out the name CHARLIE ECHO INDIA LIMA YANKEE DELTA HOTEL - there always was a very long pause as they wrote it down.
 

And final anecdote, we were trying to come up with a name for our first boat. My wife was reading a book by a local author. There was a quote there:
" A Ceilidh is a celebration where there is music, and dancing, and drinking and eating with friends . And after all that is done, we go outside and fuck the fields flat". My wife read it to me, grinned, and we knew we had found our boat's name.

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Thanks for the rotation, and comments.  Name is Jamie Hallman, Russ, never had the pleasure of meeting you, but have met your Dad and one of his Searunner 31 A Frames, Nice Tri, was my first multihull.  OK so no-one was having more fun than Don and I yesterday, told him I was going in to do a quick post on Anarchy and he went driveway sailing without me.... couldn't figure out how to rotate the photo and the wind was clocking South, didn't want to miss the first capsize in the driveway... ;-) She is a bit tired, but nothing Don and I haven't dealt with before.  Russ, you Don and I need to hook up on a webex or something, we're looking forward to learning more about the mods you have made AND your knowledge of what changes were made in later boats.  We have our 20 yr old memories of Hull 7 to go by (and don't miss the gelcoat!).  We also have access to an Omohundra section off an F25C, I think the same as yours, and would really like to know if we should consider that upgrade prior to looking at sails etc., although we were both pleasantly surprised at the condition of the main as she was unfurling.  The boat is likely 90% original at first glance.  Previous owner had Walter's yard inspect the underwing, took core samples and it all seems good?  Still has the wonderful padded vinyl on the workbench and only minor evidence of a window leak on the port side- someone sawsalled the galley insert out so she doesn't look like any of the brochures...  and so it begins!!!

FWIW, we don't mind the name but we have to decide if it captures the spirit of the next chapter for #2....

G32Driveway.jpg

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That looks great Jamie! I'm glad you found one with the mellow face windows. Not sure that the new rig was worth the many months of effort. I went just a bit higher but kept the hounds where they were. Didn't add much sail area, but am able to fly the kite and screechers from the masthead with only one set of runners. The longer mast is not an advantage when trailering. I have to slide mine back instead of leaving everything hooked up.

I think your boat has a different (bigger) fwd beam and the fwd trampoline is solid. I can send pic's of my trampoline if you don't like that one. You have curved platforms aft of the cockpit (instead of the molded boxes) which look good to me. If you want the boxes instead, I've got a set. Your watertight bulkheads in the ends of the hulls are different from later boats and I think your ballast tanks are slightly different.

I do suggest getting the vinyl out and inspecting the fwd underwing after the sailing season is over. I know it needs to be cut out and then replaced with something, but it needs to be done. That vinyl is an underwing killer.

It is a complicated boat, but systems like the ballast, centerboards, and steering seem to be very reliable.

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The G32 systems are. logical human evolution,  that is humbling in their. directness[like the way you soften the ride in a Morgan car b. Itsy letting. out air in the inner tube seat cushion that. you sit on].    It's really fun to see and explore. the solutions. directness.

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those are great Zonker, do you have any more pics? I'm trying to come up with a bench 4 my proa and I'd like to get a closer look.

 

2b

9 hours ago, Zonker said:

And add the optional added righting moment seats:

sum20.17.jpeg

G32Landed.jpg

 

I'm guessing the assembly time doesn't include the time spent answering questions and accepting compliments from the gaggle of admiring spectators  :)

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Why not both? The boat has very low righting moment so anything that keeps it upright at minimal extra weight is a good thing to me. 

Sorry not my picture, grabbed it yesterday. You can go to the link and  see if you can trace the owner

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Zonker, the G32, is all about low drag.  It's  clean for a reason   Every "improvement" I proposed to Jan, was meant with a polite response until I realized I was not getting the point of the vessel.  Once that was clear, I began to sail faster than it should go.  The boat is humbling with its' goodness.

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Actually, I really like that thing. You must have done this stuff before. Maybe this was just a mental exercise, but if not some things to think about are a place to attach the shrouds that are in line with the mast step and a place to attach the headstay. The headstay on the G-32 is supported with something like a bobstay. Maybe you were thinking to attach it to the sprit. The cabin on the G-32 is tight, especially at the front end. The G-32 is supposed to be 8.5 feet wide. Rumor is it's wider.

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14 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Really it's just that the sides of the boat would have to be cut away to install bench seating and that causes a bit of hesitation

How about something that hooks over the existing cockpit seat backs? Splash the hooks, reinforce with foam/more carbon into little square cross section hooks.  Carbon tubes, fabric mesh seat to keep the weight down.

Just have 1 seat and tack it (?). Store in the cockpit or inside when not in use.

image.thumb.png.0dfefdf8d51c1ad79c474cea307831d1.png

 

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5 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Damm, I'm impressed! Are the hulls flat panel construction?

Thanks Russell, I've always loved the G32 concept. 

The hulls are a combo of flat panel and strip.

22:1, Asymmetric to max waterline beam, fitted with boards. 

Am busy building efficient low HP foam and glass shopping trolley ( we live on an island). 22 '  x 3+' inspired by the Bermuda seagull race  hulls and the Hacker

barrel backs of yesteryear.

I'll post some pictures when there's something worth seeing.

the 32 will have to wait.

 

 

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On 9/14/2020 at 2:11 PM, Zonker said:

Why not both? The boat has very low righting moment so anything that keeps it upright at minimal extra weight is a good thing to me. 

Sorry not my picture, grabbed it yesterday. You can go to the link and  see if you can trace the owner

One thing that is coming back to me from No Bad Days and consulting with Jan is that if hiking seats were a good idea he would have thought of it through and didn't consider it for a number of integrated design reasons.  We actually experimented with hiking out with a tether and considered a trapeze and some sort of coaming seat thinking that would be faster than ballast, and while Jan didn't say it couldn't be done, he did suggest that there were a number of rig related issues why you might not want to.... as Russell has commented the systems on this boat are totally integrated and changing one aspect invariably impacts something else.  

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FWIW, before we got the L7, being infatuated by the G32, and none being  available, I talked to the Supercat lads about using 2 of their 27’ hulls (or 30’)  to frankenboat a G32 with a hard shell in between the hulls, ~8’ beam, folding tent opening into hiking racks, Mast step & shroud attachments at the same level, etc etc, but that turned into $100,000+ fast.  

So, inspired by Bolger’s D class cat, I started fooling around on my Vacanti with a 30’ stretched skinny low rider moth- flat bottom hull, vertical sides, dirt simple to build, and the hydrodynamics and surface friction weren’t bad 15-18:1 l/b.  I thought that would be narrow enough not to pound (too much :lol:), do it with the Supercat frankenboat ideas above, but the we found the L7, so......

hey!  It’s raining out!  Yay! :)  maybe the smoke will go away!
 

 

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38 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Capsizing while seated out on the wings isn't going to be a lot of fun.

At least in the cockpit you can brace yourself and go about the righting ritual.

No kidding- :) but these guys did ok on the R2ak :)  (I know, it’s extreme)  and the wings might make a cool tent if folded on an 8’ beam....  

frankedanken experiment as it turned out, anyway
 

 

 


 

10B97F1E-9306-4F55-AB28-5FFCC1311C00.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

That model is ABSOLUTELY beautiful @MRS OCTOPUS, like Russel asked do you have pictures of the construction or how was it put together?

Does anyone know what the point of making this a catamaran was? At this size, with these slim accomodations, a folding tri ticks all the boxes... Perhaps other than cost?

 

A folder (or slider) tri takes forever to launch off a trailer, and raising the mast is fiddly and sinus clearing.  Although Nigel Irens has some thought provoking ideas on an unstayed tri, which would simplify things a bit....it’s at the end of this article:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_SflcQYbAR4ZmUzNWU4NDAtYzk3YS00OTllLTg2M2YtNWM1ZTBkM2U0ZjNj/edit?hl=en

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Taeping has it right.........

Has she shown up in the great lakes yet???

 

image.png.e06bd7721965f777dcd0d4f0324ef2ea.png

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On 9/14/2020 at 9:34 PM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

With wings :) 

My Covid lockdown model, Inspiration from G32, same dimensions 32' x 8'

IMG_0387.JPG.410e1bf58c5b2a29071d7a1393849e6f.JPG

OK, can’t stand it no more, what’s with the scissors?  (Great aesthetic, btw- do you have a pic w/o the seats?)

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And since only 14 g32’s were made, here’s a quick doodle I did this smoky Covid morning  of a general idea I was messing with 10 years ago- I think my book of doodles got lost during the move.  I realize there are a lot of problems with this one, but like I said, it gets the general idea across- this one is kind of a cross between a Shark catamaran (solid bridge deck), an A class cat with flying downwind/drifter sails,  and the the G32-  the cabin is too low to sleep in, but good for stuffing junk in, the wings fold in to form the structure for a tent, the water ballast is moved out to bladders or tubes- the idea there is that once in the water, water ballast is neutral & 120 lbs of water 8’- 9’ out will be close to 300 lbs 4 feet out in RM, bettter if you add a body or two.  You could go with or without netting, or maybe add longitudinally sliding hiking planks.  A little floatation on the water bladders/tubes could help in going over/ righting, especially if the tubes are streamlined- kind of a Training wheels sort of approach.... use the tent structure as a mast/ boom crutch, the prod as a gin pole....:)

 

2921AC6F-5F0A-40FA-BA79-4144FBBB56ED.jpeg

C9F5DE2F-537D-4DF1-A116-5FA6A34AA74E.jpeg

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15 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Capsizing while seated out on the wings isn't going to be a lot of fun.

Since the boat stops at 90 degrees because of the masthead float, why wouldn't you hold on to the seat side struts and then climb down into the cockpit and start re-righting. No big drama.

19 hours ago, jhallman said:

One thing that is coming back to me from No Bad Days and consulting with Jan is that if hiking seats were a good idea he would have thought of it through and didn't consider it for a number of integrated design reasons.  We actually experimented with hiking out with a tether and considered a trapeze and some sort of coaming seat thinking that would be faster than ballast, and while Jan didn't say it couldn't be done, he did suggest that there were a number of rig related issues why you might not want to.... as Russell has commented the systems on this boat are totally integrated and changing one aspect invariably impacts something else. 

To suggest that any changes to the G32 is wrong because it's perfect as it is is probably a bit over the top. Perhaps he was thinking of water ballast + hiking seats would have added too much RM and made mast breakages more likely.  I was considering hiking seats INSTEAD of water ballast.

Jan used water ballast to gain RM. This adds weight, which = drag through the water.

If you already have 350 lbs of crew aboard, their weight shifted say 3' further outboard than seated in the cockpit = 1050 ft.lbs more RM. For comparison the 300 lbs of water ballast has less RM if you only fill the windward tank (I think 300 lbs in each hull?). Maybe put a weight limit on seats so it roughly equals the RM of the water ballast tanks so you don't risk rig breakage!

 

I think Russell's new mast and rig may have a bit more RM than the original design?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Since the boat stops at 90 degrees because of the masthead float, why wouldn't you hold on to the seat side struts and then climb down into the cockpit and start re-righting. No big drama.

To suggest that any changes to the G32 is wrong because it's perfect as it is is probably a bit over the top. Perhaps he was thinking of water ballast + hiking seats would have added too much RM and made mast breakages more likely.  I was considering hiking seats INSTEAD of water ballast.

Jan used water ballast to gain RM. This adds weight, which = drag through the water.

If you already have 350 lbs of crew aboard, their weight shifted say 3' further outboard than seated in the cockpit = 1050 ft.lbs more RM. For comparison the 300 lbs of water ballast has less RM if you only fill the windward tank (I think 300 lbs in each hull?). Maybe put a weight limit on seats so it roughly equals the RM of the water ballast tanks so you don't risk rig breakage!

 

I think Russell's new mast and rig may have a bit more RM than the original design?

 

 

I did not mean to imply that being aware that the boat has highly integrated systems, (i.e. changes in one thing impact another) = perfection.  You did say why not both but I'll assume you meant either one or the other, and going by memory, we generally hiked first, tethered to the mast as we wanted to keep the boat light, then when things got a bit close to the edge we added ballast instead.  I don't recall doing both at the same time as there were certainly advantages to being down in the cockpit closer to the controls. 

What's missing in assuming the ballast RM can be replaced with hiking RM is that anyone who has sailed one knows that the extra displacement of ballast settles the boat motion through the water down dramatically in addition to adding RM.  A lot to consider on whether momentum and rig and foil stability through the water might make for a faster boat in certain conditions.... we contemplate a lot of the variables on this boat already!  That one is a great complex question to ponder.

'

'I think Russell's new mast and rig may have a bit more RM than the original design?'

I don't know how Russell's new rig could increase the RM?  I haven't seen how his sail plan compares to the original or some of the big roachy mains I've seen in pics, I just assumed it would generally require more RM, (i.e. adding ballast sooner) as it is taller.  I know reduced weight aloft can reduce the moment of inertia but I don't think that increases RM? 

 

Cheers!

From a design perspective, no doubt hiking is a lot simpler than water ballast.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Since the boat stops at 90 degrees because of the masthead float, why wouldn't you hold on to the seat side struts and then climb down into the cockpit and start re-righting. No big drama.

To suggest that any changes to the G32 is wrong because it's perfect as it is is probably a bit over the top. Perhaps he was thinking of water ballast + hiking seats would have added too much RM and made mast breakages more likely.  I was considering hiking seats INSTEAD of water ballast.

Jan used water ballast to gain RM. This adds weight, which = drag through the water.

If you already have 350 lbs of crew aboard, their weight shifted say 3' further outboard than seated in the cockpit = 1050 ft.lbs more RM. For comparison the 300 lbs of water ballast has less RM if you only fill the windward tank (I think 300 lbs in each hull?). Maybe put a weight limit on seats so it roughly equals the RM of the water ballast tanks so you don't risk rig breakage!

 

I think Russell's new mast and rig may have a bit more RM than the original design?

 

 

IIRC* it wasn’t just RM, it was also to settle the boat down, I assume that increasing mass to be accelerated, slows acceleration for the same force. 

*notes seen over various times, may not have perfect recall.

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Bernd Kohler was unashamedly inspired by the G32 when penning his "MaXi" design... It lacks the G32 grace (among other attributes), but may be worth sharing (if it hasn't been already). 

Renderingfinaweb1l.jpg

If I won the lotto one  of the boats I'd commission would be an updated, carbon, G32 based design... although there would be little to update.

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2 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Bernd Kohler was unashamedly inspired by the G32 when penning his "MaXi" design... It lacks the G32 grace (among other attributes), but may be worth sharing (if it hasn't been already). 

Renderingfinaweb1l.jpg

If I won the lotto one  of the boats I'd commission would be an updated, carbon, G32 based design... although there would be little to update.

:wub:

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Zonker,  nothing is sacred on the G32, but the development given to it  deserves respect.  Jans' water ballast is simple, pull one line to fill, another line to empty.  There is a simple bubble indictator to let you know the status of the fill/empty.  It reminds me of the Lotus Seven.  If I still had mine we could go for a sail/smile.

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The comments highlighting the mass of the water ballast and not merely the weight of it are interesting.  I would love to here more about how the 'settling'effect actually feels when sailing.

I went down a rabbit hole of similar thoughts the other day and ended up in the rather odd place of a proa with a water filled torpedo on the end of a laterally swinging (canting?) daggerboard.  But then I recovered.

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10 hours ago, Zonker said:

I guess I should have said Russell's new rig has more heeling moment. RM of the boat hasn't changed. Thus you fly a hull sooner.

I’d guess that the new rig has less drag?

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The settling part is that the boat goes from tippy to stable in about 30 seconds of filling the ballast. I used to be a bit late in adding ballast and there are times when it's needed just to round up or gybe when running. Adding bench seats to a stock G-32 would put the weight of the people sitting in them quite high compared to where the ballast is.

I think that a some things could be improved in the design, but the things that make the boat easy to set up and use would have to be retained. I'd really love to see an all plywood multichined G-32 built. The forward shapes that Octopus has modeled would retain the amazing dryness of the boat. I'm going to be offline for a week or so.

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5 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

The comments highlighting the mass of the water ballast and not merely the weight of it are interesting.  I would love to here more about how the 'settling'effect actually feels when sailing.

I went down a rabbit hole of similar thoughts the other day and ended up in the rather odd place of a proa with a water filled torpedo on the end of a laterally swinging (canting?) daggerboard.  But then I recovered.

Well, the Polynesians used a solid log for the small windward hull on some of their proas.  Kind of goes against the ‘light is better’ mantra, sticking a keel bulb out there.....

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5 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

The comments highlighting the mass of the water ballast and not merely the weight of it are interesting.  I would love to here more about how the 'settling'effect actually feels when sailing.

I went down a rabbit hole of similar thoughts the other day and ended up in the rather odd place of a proa with a water filled torpedo on the end of a laterally swinging (canting?) daggerboard.  But then I recovered.

Swallow Yachts has been doing the water ballast thing for a while now, for ~ same reasons

http://swallowyachts.com/range/bay-cruiser-23/

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7 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

The settling part is that the boat goes from tippy to stable in about 30 seconds of filling the ballast. I used to be a bit late in adding ballast and there are times when it's needed just to round up or gybe when running. Adding bench seats to a stock G-32 would put the weight of the people sitting in them quite high compared to where the ballast is.

I think that a some things could be improved in the design, but the things that make the boat easy to set up and use would have to be retained. I'd really love to see an all plywood multichined G-32 built. The forward shapes that Octopus has modeled would retain the amazing dryness of the boat. I'm going to be offline for a week or so.

The bow shape reminds me of the little DS12 cat designed by Chris Tucker (plans available for free: https://www.ctmd.com.au/ds12.php)

I guess that increased mass provided by the ballast might be particularly effective in wave-piercing designs where it can be used to increase 'punch' into seas?

136851-fwdquarter.JPG

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10 minutes ago, Anotherclarkey said:

The bow shape reminds me of the little DS12 cat designed by Chris Tucker (plans available for free: https://www.ctmd.com.au/ds12.php)

I guess that increased mass provided by the ballast might be particularly effective in wave-piercing designs where it can be used to increase 'punch' into seas?

136851-fwdquarter.JPG

Weren’t some of the Open mono classes were using water ballast in the bows for that very reason?  (It was a while back)

Volvo 65’s too

 

29D0D72F-821C-465B-B1E3-004E4EE9A948.png

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On 7/27/2020 at 11:45 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

That's Kalakala! 

An Art Deco Ferry from Puget Sound. Looks like Something from a Buster Crab Matinee 

SmartSelect_20200727-041735_Google.jpg

Built on an old ferry hull that burned? IIRR

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9 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

The bow shape reminds me of the little DS12 cat designed by Chris Tucker (plans available for free: https://www.ctmd.com.au/ds12.php)

I guess that increased mass provided by the ballast might be particularly effective in wave-piercing designs where it can be used to increase 'punch' into seas?

All the big French record breaking trimarans have some form of water ballast for this reason.

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On 9/16/2020 at 12:52 AM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Capsizing while seated out on the wings isn't going to be a lot of fun.

At least in the cockpit you can brace yourself and go about the righting ritual.

I thought about wings with floats underneath that might prevent the boat from tipping to 90 degrees - like the inflatable tubes sometimes seen on the leward side of proas that don't have the leward pod protruding from the main hull. Otherwise one could just trapeze first to see how the boat handles with crew weight further out.

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12 minutes ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I thought about wings with floats underneath that might prevent the boat from tipping to 90 degrees - like the inflatable tubes sometimes seen on the leward side of proas that don't have the leward pod protruding from the main hull. Otherwise one could just trapeze first to see how the boat handles with crew weight further out.

Question, does the boat need more RM? Sounds like it was set up to be hyper efficient and not in need of all that power. International Canoe vs. International 14.

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Well really it is very efficient with a small low aspect rig. But it still capsizes from time to time. So... yeah more RM wouldn't hurt it.

Yes, water ballast is really well recognized to add momentum to racing boats sailing to windward in big seas. Or to add it to the stern to help in following seas. It's not just about RM.

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Already at leasr 20 years ago in Holland I did several races in a 20 -ish field of Corsairs ,Dragonflys ,mc Gregor 36 , 3 grainger tri ,s

and a Gaugeon

The Gaugon outsailed all of them apart from one 31 grainger tri...

Conditions were shallow freshwater steep/short waves

Gaugeon ....no spray.... Tiny easy to trim rig..

Impressive although somewhat funny looking.!

If at that time I could have got my hands on that Gaugeon second hand , I would have done it

 

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When I added water ballast as needed, she went faster, it is a wave piercing displacement hull, which are seldom seen and break different ground. You should research proas from the. Stone Age, that are fast and have. small rigs.

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On 9/21/2020 at 1:48 PM, Raz'r said:

Question, does the boat need more RM? Sounds like it was set up to be hyper efficient and not in need of all that power. International Canoe vs. International 14.

I doubt I'll modify my G32 with bench seats, but I bet the boat would be faster with them.  

 

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We got out on our first sail on G2 last Sunday.  Had the mast up and her in the water in about 15 min despite a questionable launch ramp.  Very light and shifting winds but we did see 10+ knots at one point.  Beat our way over to a friends place expecting a spinnaker run back but the wind had other ideas and shifted almost 180 while we were enjoying a cold one.  Everything worked!  Had some concern about some new daggerboard trunk flaps and the CDI furler foil has a break in it but we'll get that sorted out.  Pretty sure all the lines are original so of course the spaghetti in the cockpit is all the same color now and nothing is labelled so we refreshed our memories on where everything is located.  The windows need rebedding, anyone have any suggestions on what is currently the best adhesive?  Have used the Sikkens 295 in the past.  Also before we go and buy a new CDI furler, anyone have a strong opinion on the various flexible furlers now on the market?

FirstLaunch.jpg

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Jan, told me they. chose cdi, furler  because you can. leave the jib on it so it is faster to rig for daysails.  The riggers around here like the more expensive units but you can't. leave the sail ready to go, so for me that was it [I never had any trouble with it].  Skip Etchells has the sails dialed in[he made them for the Gougeons, boats].

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7 hours ago, jhallman said:

We got out on our first sail on G2 last Sunday.  Had the mast up and her in the water in about 15 min despite a questionable launch ramp.  Very light and shifting winds but we did see 10+ knots at one point.  Beat our way over to a friends place expecting a spinnaker run back but the wind had other ideas and shifted almost 180 while we were enjoying a cold one.  Everything worked!  Had some concern about some new daggerboard trunk flaps and the CDI furler foil has a break in it but we'll get that sorted out.  Pretty sure all the lines are original so of course the spaghetti in the cockpit is all the same color now and nothing is labelled so we refreshed our memories on where everything is located.  The windows need rebedding, anyone have any suggestions on what is currently the best adhesive?  Have used the Sikkens 295 in the past.  Also before we go and buy a new CDI furler, anyone have a strong opinion on the various flexible furlers now on the market?

FirstLaunch.jpg

Saw you out there.  Looked great!  I would love to go for a sail if you need crew sometime.

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On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2020 at 1:15 AM, Keith said:

Taeping has it right.........

Has she shown up in the great lakes yet???

 

image.png.e06bd7721965f777dcd0d4f0324ef2ea.png

Yep, sailing out of Superior, Wisconsin at the western end of Lake Superior. Didn't put the racks on.

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11 hours ago, jhallman said:

We got out on our first sail on G2 last Sunday.  Had the mast up and her in the water in about 15 min despite a questionable launch ramp.  Very light and shifting winds but we did see 10+ knots at one point.  Beat our way over to a friends place expecting a spinnaker run back but the wind had other ideas and shifted almost 180 while we were enjoying a cold one.  Everything worked!  Had some concern about some new daggerboard trunk flaps and the CDI furler foil has a break in it but we'll get that sorted out.  Pretty sure all the lines are original so of course the spaghetti in the cockpit is all the same color now and nothing is labelled so we refreshed our memories on where everything is located.  The windows need rebedding, anyone have any suggestions on what is currently the best adhesive?  Have used the Sikkens 295 in the past.  Also before we go and buy a new CDI furler, anyone have a strong opinion on the various flexible furlers now on the market?

I like the old-school Harken 436 furler. It's rated for 3/16 wire and seems to be strong enough for the headstay loads. Originally I used a torque line as the headstay (run through the sleeve in the jib) but the rolled-up sail kinks when the mast is down and the sail would wrinkle when rolling it up in breeze. I now use a spectra headstay run inside a fiberglass tube. The tube takes the torsion and the spectra takes the headstay loads. I haven't coiled it tight enough to fit in the back of the truck because I think it would break, but so did the shitty (and heavy) CDI plastic foil. I lay it flat over the boat when trailering and store it indoors when not using the boat. I'll add more detail if that's the road you want to go down.

Just returned from a nice week on the boat. Nice besides almost being run down in the fog by a power yacht and being in thick fire smoke for a couple of days. Never flew a hull the whole trip but did add some ballast for a gale at anchor.

DSC_8222.jpeg

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On 9/22/2020 at 10:18 AM, guerdon said:

When I added water ballast as needed, she went faster, it is a wave piercing displacement hull, which are seldom seen and break different ground. You should research proas from the. Stone Age, that are fast and have. small rigs.

And g32 precedents- not Stone Age, but.......

Do the shroud outriggers help near capsize?  Do they help on open 60’s when things get heeled?

ABE93738-DC3B-4BA7-99BD-0BB13E44513F.jpeg

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I've been meaning to ask you about your jib furler Russ. I saw it in one of your videos and was impressed with how compact it was. It looked great! 

John and I had a great time on Flipper racing in the Solomons Cove Point Classic last weekend  Perfect conditions for the G32. Despite Losing the sprit (control pulley on the sprit broke as we were rounding the last mark) we managed to beat a well sailed F31 and an absolutely beautiful Dragon Fly 25 scratch and corrected about an hour ahead of the stiletto 30 and a beautifully restored 44' trimaran. 

It was entirely downwind and the G32 was deeper and faster than our friendly rivals. It's hard to beat a G32 in lighter air. 

Flipper's reaching chute is alot smaller than Janet C's crazy huge running chute, but after seeing how well we sailed in lighter air with the reacher I'm beginning to wonder if Janet's runner is really any faster.  I'll probably bring Janet to Annapolis for a few races to see how the two chutes compare side by side. 

Janet's chute hoist is about 35' and the foot is about 26', so it's oddly shaped compared to the more modern asym aspect ratios of today. 

The guys in Annapolis are so much fun to hang out with too - swapping stories at the tiki bar over drinks - I'm looking forward to racing there again. 

Skinny cats rule

 

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Lots of G-32 racing action lately. Besides Flipper, my friend Helge raced his G-32 in the Silverrudder 2020. Helge is an old guy like me and hasn't raced his G-32 for many long years. The race he did appears to be a long-distance singlehanded race and at some point he dropped out (as I often do without the slightest bit of shame), but the report and the photos are worth a look: https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/silverrudder2020 

I met Helge last year at the Gougeon's 50'th anniversary and I can only say that I wish we lived closer together.

The Round the County race has just been cancelled, so I don't know when I'll get to enter a real race again, but it doesn't really matter because just sailing on the G-32 is such a joy. Hoping to get out again this year, but with the border closed my options are limited.

 

 

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On 9/25/2020 at 7:49 AM, jhallman said:

The windows need rebedding, anyone have any suggestions on what is currently the best adhesive?  Have used the Sikkens 295 in the past

Pretty sure you meant Sika 295 but anyway. I've used GE Silpruf 2000 and Dow Corning 795. Both are silicones and are good, and much cheaper than 295. And they don't need the Sika special primer made from unicorn tears (judging by the price).

The key with any bonded windows is a thick layer of caulking to allow for thermal expansion without shearing the glue bond. With the small windows on a G-32 1/4" thick would be plenty with 3/16" likely just as good.

Re-read the Sika brochure on how to do it properly if it's been a few years since you did it. The V shaped notch in the caulking tube is essential, as are using small rubber spaces to avoid the window being pressed too close to the substrate.

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1 hour ago, unShirley said:

Not very well being trailered down the highway.

There is that......  I suppose you could hinge them?  More complexity......<_<
 

But might they help in a tippy situation?  I don’t know. :o  You’ve been there, I gather-

how well does the leeward pod work with Pacific Proas?  I don’t think I’ve seen or heard any reports....

or maybe a pod would work like a really big dss foil?

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27 minutes ago, Amati said:

how well does the leeward pod work with Pacific Proas?  I don’t think I’ve seen or heard any reports....

It works very well.  Wrong thread for this discussion though.

 

Observations on Pacific proas by Russell Brown, Sep 3, 2011
http://pacificproa.com/brown/observations_on_pacific_proas.html

Quote

The Pod. One probably wouldn't sail this type of boat in the ocean without one. First, because it makes for a usable interior and a wonderful place to sleep, and second, because it would be unsafe.  I say this even though in my present boat I have never had a knockdown. On my last boat I did have a couple of serious ones; One going fast with the spinnaker sheet wrapped around the tiller, the other in 60 knots of wind (said the nearby coastguard station). In both of these knockdowns the boat was pinned over for a period of time. On my first boat, with a small pod, I had a couple of serious knockdowns as well, one in quite rough weather.

 

PARK IT, DAD by Jim Brown - Chapter 18 of Jim Brown's "Among the Multihulls, Vol. 2"
http://pacificproa.com/brown/park_it_dad.html

Quote

This bunk was located in the pod, that strange, streamlined, shelf-like protuberance that cantilevers out over the water on the side opposite the outrigger, the downwind side of the main hull. The ride here was wonderfully quiet. As I lay there, just feeling the ship soar through ocean space, I recalled how we had tested KAURI’s stability on our river in Virginia.

Using two anchors to position the boat near the river shore we then brought a line from the masthead to the bank, where Steve, Russ and I hauled as hard as we could, trying to pick up the float and heel the vessel over. Indeed we were able to lift the outrigger float clear of the water, but as soon as the craft had heeled enough to press the pod down onto the surface, our continued efforts to tip the boat were to no avail. I brought our old Pontiac station wagon into hauling position, and we tied the line to that. Then we hauled again, with 250 horsepower, and the boat heeled way over. As the mast came down, the outrigger float climbed skyward. Surprisingly, as the pod was forced to submerge, the main hull was literally picked up by it, almost completely out of the water! It was now abundantly clear that the main hull acted as a powerful counterweight against the buoyancy of the pod, trying hard to re-right the vessel. With the station wagon's handbrake set and Steven blocking the wheels, I got out of the driver's seat and noticed that the line from the wagon to KAURI's masthead was bar taught, and furthermore, Russell was already half way between the shore and the boat. His feet were dangling in the water as he went hand over hand along the line, headed for the horizontal mast. He reached it and pulled his legs almost free of the water. At this point, his weight, at the very top of the mast, finally overcame the knockdown stability of the vessel, and she continued heeling, which lowered Russ back into the water. When he let go, the craft snapped back toward upright until it was restrained by the line to the station wagon. It was an amazing demonstration. I knew there were few multihulls of any size that would exhibit such ultimate stability.

With the recollection of that static test, made years ago, I now relaxed. If a freak wave – combined with a sharp gust – was to hurl KAURI's float skyward right now, I had great confidence that the pod in which I was reclining would encounter the water and shoulder the boat back on its feet. 

jzerro_lat38.jpg.0356f0b7c7ae0a8a8530aaf9dad249e3.jpg

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