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9 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Anyone know what the optimum angle should be for a long, narrow catamaran?

It can be calculated if you know the distance between rudders and the tiller arrangement. Note that the relationship is non-linear so it is not just the angle, but also the length of the tillers (or effective tiller length for double pivot systems) to make it effective over the greatest range of turning radii. I'll do the calc for you if you send over the dimensions.

When I bought my cat the rudders were toed in by nearly 10 degrees because someone had cut down the tiller bar at some point in the past, presumably doing a repair. Not a fast look....

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With wings   My Covid lockdown model, Inspiration from G32, same dimensions 32' x 8'

We got G2 in and out of the paint shop of 69 North.  Some new best friends, Gary Gomes and Claudio (the artist) had all kinds of opinions on our color selections, allowed us some shop time before to g

I was friends with Geoff Prindle when he shaped the hulls for the molds of the Prindle 16 out of a solid block of styrofoam at his surfboard factory.  No computer models or graphics programs.  No loft

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I think that it can be quantified. If you picture a beach cat setup the tillers are angled inboard at some kind of magic angle and it wouldn't matter how long your tillers were, the angle of attack difference between the rudders would be the same.  I think. I can tell you one thing, trying to figure it out on the G-32 made me crazy and it made my buddy crazy too and he's actually good at this stuff.  

 

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3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

If you picture a beach cat setup the tillers are angled inboard at some kind of magic angle and it wouldn't matter how long your tillers were, the angle of attack difference between the rudders would be the same.  I think.

The length of the tillers matter as a proportion of the spacing between the rudders. This proportion changes the relative angles of attack of each rudder. To illustrate this, imagine your beach cat system with a second tiller bar mounted parallel to the first, halfway down each tiller. The system would not turn at all, other than by deforming components.

It is simple to calculate for a single pivot system like a beach cat, gets more complex with double pivot systems.

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I took Tspeer's advice and pulled strings perpendicular from the rudders to a string I pulled from a point perpendicular to the daggerboard. The strings met at the theoretical center of the boat's turning radius.  I was surprised at how close together the strings were when the tiller was 30 deg from center.  I try not to steer beyond 30 degrees off center in an effort to prevent the rudders from stalling.  I don't know if it's set up "correctly," as I really don't know for sure if I should measure from perpendicular to the daggerboard or if one should compensate for the daggerboard Gybing a few degrees.  It looks like Janet is already set up as if one doesn't have to compensate for the daggerboard's varying angle of attack. 

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37 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Is your inboard rudder turned more than the outboard rudder?

Yes, as the turning radius of the inboard rudder is smaller than the turning radius of the outboard rudder, that is if I understand the concept correctly. However I only tried to measure the rudder angles when the tiller was 30 degrees from center. I didn't check if the angles at 10 or 15 degrees from center also line up, which I might play with after I'm done with foam/carbon fiber underwing upgrade.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

A rainy day update for the group.  G2 is now pretty well stripped.  We will probably wish we took more pics of what goes where when it comes to putting her back together, but that will be the fun part.  The boat did have a repaint, but we're pretty sure they did not remove most of the fittings and just masked everything.  As a result everything is due to be rebedded, either with 5200 or the original epoxy bedding method that seemed to stand up for almost 30 years on many of the cockpit fittings.  Nothing loose, no evidence of any rot or moisture ingress, but didn't have too much trouble getting stuff off.  Except for maybe the delaminated solar panel which looked to be a factory option.  We built a decent sized ridgepole frame over 3/4 of the boat and shrinkwrapped it so we can still work. 

Have upgraded a lot of the electrical which had a neat nostalgic shout out to someone in the Gougeon's shop who soldered everything and hand labelled all the wires.   Crimping new wiring, a few switches, a voltmeter, and installing an extra bus bar or two.  Decided to remove the old none graphic GPS, which was an upgrade to a Loran at some point, as it's hard to imagine what we would use it for.  A swing mount for a tablet/cell phone, LED running lights, new VHF, USB charging ports, new 110W flexible solar panel, solar controller and a lithium battery.  Someone abandoned the masthead VHF antenna functionality and we can't get continuity on the in mast cable so a bit to sort out there yet.  The furling 'drum' on the main is curiously rotted sandwiched between a disc of epoxy and a disc of aluminum and everything covered in, of course, the one thing Jan and Meade had lots of..... epoxy. Easy enough to rebuild. 

So far the epoxy work has been pretty minimal, a bunch of holes where trampolines, solar diodes, vents, etc. were fastened and a bit of delamination between the cabin and the deck beam.  Molded a foam fiberglas step (OK actually got my buddy to break out the vacuum pump for that) to fasten on the front of cabin  between the windows after remembering how treacherous the journey forward could be and modified the aft platforms to allow the motor room to 'steer' when docking and laminated some stringers to the underside as we realized  they made a natural step but were a bit flexy under foot and maybe not designed to walk on?. 

We're well into the fairing stage while we try to find someone with a shop big enough to paint her.  We would likely default to Awlgrip, but will likely defer to the painter's preference.  If anyone has any compelling options, let us know.  Hoping for some reasonable fall weather.

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3 hours ago, jhallman said:

A rainy day update for the group.  G2 is now pretty well stripped.  We will probably wish we took more pics of what goes where when it comes to putting her back together, but that will be the fun part.  The boat did have a repaint, but we're pretty sure they did not remove most of the fittings and just masked everything.  As a result everything is due to be rebedded, either with 5200 or the original epoxy bedding method that seemed to stand up for almost 30 years on many of the cockpit fittings.  Nothing loose, no evidence of any rot or moisture ingress, but didn't have too much trouble getting stuff off.  Except for maybe the delaminated solar panel which looked to be a factory option.  We built a decent sized ridgepole frame over 3/4 of the boat and shrinkwrapped it so we can still work. 

Have upgraded a lot of the electrical which had a neat nostalgic shout out to someone in the Gougeon's shop who soldered everything and hand labelled all the wires.   Crimping new wiring, a few switches, a voltmeter, and installing an extra bus bar or two.  Decided to remove the old none graphic GPS, which was an upgrade to a Loran at some point, as it's hard to imagine what we would use it for.  A swing mount for a tablet/cell phone, LED running lights, new VHF, USB charging ports, new 110W flexible solar panel, solar controller and a lithium battery.  Someone abandoned the masthead VHF antenna functionality and we can't get continuity on the in mast cable so a bit to sort out there yet.  The furling 'drum' on the main is curiously rotted sandwiched between a disc of epoxy and a disc of aluminum and everything covered in, of course, the one thing Jan and Meade had lots of..... epoxy. Easy enough to rebuild. 

So far the epoxy work has been pretty minimal, a bunch of holes where trampolines, solar diodes, vents, etc. were fastened and a bit of delamination between the cabin and the deck beam.  Molded a foam fiberglas step (OK actually got my buddy to break out the vacuum pump for that) to fasten on the front of cabin  between the windows after remembering how treacherous the journey forward could be and modified the aft platforms to allow the motor room to 'steer' when docking and laminated some stringers to the underside as we realized  they made a natural step but were a bit flexy under foot and maybe not designed to walk on?. 

We're well into the fairing stage while we try to find someone with a shop big enough to paint her.  We would likely default to Awlgrip, but will likely defer to the painter's preference.  If anyone has any compelling options, let us know.  Hoping for some reasonable fall weather.

Just re-read Gougeon on cast-in fittings. seems like it would work well for real wood, but my boat is balsa and can't imagine there's much strength there. But, 30 years? Do the same as before!

 

but, if you go adhesive sealant,  please not 5200. 4200 is so much nicer.

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Good news is the blog software decided not to rotate my pics this time!  Doing everyone's neck a favour... ;-)  I must admit we were apprehensive about removing fittings cast-in epoxy, but it was no problem.  They all appeared to still be sealed OK and simply threaded out. I think a dab of epoxy going back in will be all that's needed.  Did not snap or strip a single fastener, but the bucket of bolts and parts is a bit daunting.  Going to look at replacing some of the hardware, especially in areas where they damaged the boat finish. 

A bit of a conundrum on the lines as we could easily go down a size in many cases using new high tech lines, but many of them are 'small' diameter already, not a lot of weight savings to be had- I remember going through a set of sailing gloves/regatta with no Bad Days and Don used to just tell me to stop complaining and threw me a roll of duct tape.  Have a 'new' local supplier of lines Rigby Ropes that is keen to work with us.  For sure going to go with the water shedding or hydrophobic fibers for the spin and reacher sheets.  

Raised the aft mast stand about a foot and used an old mast as a ridgepole giving us just enough room to work underneath the shrink wrap.  Loosened the side tie downs to get extra room when we need it.  We were prepping for a spring paint job then found a guy who might be able to do it in a week or so.... Lot's of panicked fairing and sanding ensued.  You can see our new 'step' in the pics, we also cleared a spot aft of the hatch and forward of the mast for the 110W solar panel.  Cockpit has lot's of holes now, most of which we will temporarily fill with painters putty for the paint job as we will be reusing them.  Non-skid appears to be cabosil mixed in with the paint, now sanded down and we will do some test patches to come up with a mix that works with whatever paint we decide on.

We have a Raymarine tiller pilot to sort out, anyone have any pics of their setup?  We continue to work in parallel on sourcing new gear to bolt on, although the original stuff is all in good working order.  Have a finicky 8hp merc that seems in great shape but likely just needs some tlc.  Appreciate any input or feedback on mods or go fasts other owners have done that improved their setups as we feel its a bit like a blank canvas at this point.  Only rule we are building to is to go fast!

Plan now is to trailer her back to Toronto and hopefully get her in a shop for a day or two for final masking and prep.   STAY TUNED....

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On 11/15/2020 at 7:27 PM, Raz'r said:

Just re-read Gougeon on cast-in fittings. seems like it would work well for real wood, but my boat is balsa and can't imagine there's much strength there. But, 30 years? Do the same as before!

 

but, if you go adhesive sealant,  please not 5200. 4200 is so much nicer.

Having owned/ worked on several wood and balsa cored boats, I spent many hours making sure the deck fittings didn't cause problems down the road.  You have to drill oversized holes for everything then fill with epoxy/cotton fiber mix.  You also have to add a disc of fiberglas cloth top and bottom that overlaps the original laminate, otherwise you will have a weak spot at the transition from your fiber to the deck glass.  Idea is to spread the load out beyond your fastener to the deck core and then use the skins to act almost like a backing plate on the bottom and protection on the joint on the top.  Usually your fitting and washer will cover up your work.  I tended to use adhesive sealant on the fastener but after seeing how well sealed the cast in epoxy fittings were on this boat I would certainly consider that as an alternative now.  I got this method from some other designer/builder, can't remember who now.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/1/2020 at 3:25 PM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I took Tspeer's advice and pulled strings perpendicular from the rudders to a string I pulled from a point perpendicular to the daggerboard. The strings met at the theoretical center of the boat's turning radius.  I was surprised at how close together the strings were when the tiller was 30 deg from center.  I try not to steer beyond 30 degrees off center in an effort to prevent the rudders from stalling.  I don't know if it's set up "correctly," as I really don't know for sure if I should measure from perpendicular to the daggerboard or if one should compensate for the daggerboard Gybing a few degrees.  It looks like Janet is already set up as if one doesn't have to compensate for the daggerboard's varying angle of attack. 

When I was sailing catamarans,  we wanted to see what the difference in rudder angles were, so we disconnected the tiller bar and steered the leeward rudder, while staring at the windward rudder to see if it was different.  When it was in the water.  We lashed extensions to the short tillers.

The difference between the Shark and the Sol 18 &15 was something you could see. A stick with hash marks worked best for measuring, but flow off the back ends of the hulls was, um, complex.  Best thing to do, we figured, was to raise the windward rudder.  

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7 hours ago, Amati said:

When I was sailing catamarans,  we wanted to see what the difference in rudder angles were, so we disconnected the tiller bar and steered the leeward rudder, while staring at the windward rudder to see if it was different.  When it was in the water.  We lashed extensions to the short tillers.

The difference between the Shark and the Sol 18 &15 was something you could see. A stick with hash marks worked best for measuring, but flow off the back ends of the hulls was, um, complex.  Best thing to do, we figured, was to raise the windward rudder.  

I was surprised at how much of a difference it made in terms of boatspeed.

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Raise the rudder.  Easy peasy, and it makes the monos think you are up to no good.   Always carry a spare release cleat for the up/down haul line if you sail in kelp.  I love the Corinthian tone of the G32 group.

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On 11/1/2020 at 3:25 PM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I took Tspeer's advice and pulled strings perpendicular from the rudders to a string I pulled from a point perpendicular to the daggerboard. The strings met at the theoretical center of the boat's turning radius.  I was surprised at how close together the strings were when the tiller was 30 deg from center.  I try not to steer beyond 30 degrees off center in an effort to prevent the rudders from stalling.  I don't know if it's set up "correctly," as I really don't know for sure if I should measure from perpendicular to the daggerboard or if one should compensate for the daggerboard Gybing a few degrees.  It looks like Janet is already set up as if one doesn't have to compensate for the daggerboard's varying angle of attack. 

Theoretically, there’s also the issue of biplane/tandem array foil interaction between the daggerboard or centerboard, as well as the rudder (or rudders, if both are down).  Lift circulation, also means stagger also is in play with DB/rudder aoa attack, which as we could see during our experiment.  Any body tried windward db down, leeward db up, and only leeward rudder down?  Or the other way around? On the Shark, if both hulls were in the water for that setup, the leeward rudder got more a different + angle of flow by itself than only the windward rudder with only the windward cb. This sort of stuff gets wordy, doesn’t it?  (The blessing of a father with a masters degree in aerodynamics. Munk’s reports on the bookshelf and all ...)

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We got G2 in and out of the paint shop of 69 North.  Some new best friends, Gary Gomes and Claudio (the artist) had all kinds of opinions on our color selections,20201208_121813.thumb.jpg.6255a4535c306a1054578e0dd6303fcc.jpg allowed us some shop time before to get her thawed and ready, then two colors, followed by clear coat and non-skid and she was ready to trailer back home.  In masking and unmasking the 'new' windows, one of them unseated partially from the adhesive.....  was pretty sure I read the Dow 795 did not require  primer but there is some fine print on the tube that says there IS a primer if you need it?  Unfortunately CR Laurence doesn't seem to carry it so more research required.  Anyways, minor issue, the pics speak for themselves.  Got two sunny clear days for the transport there and back and she is now shrinkwrapped for the winter with enough room to start bolting stuff back on.  Sorry for the pic rotation AGAIN..... seems to be a random thing based on aspect size maybe?

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1 hour ago, jhallman said:

Sorry for the pic rotation AGAIN..... seems to be a random thing based on aspect size maybe?

iPhone?  It always is.  Maybe you cropped the first one (GIMP/Photoshop) and fixed it in the process?

The boat looks great, congratulations.

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7 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

iPhone?  It always is.  Maybe you cropped the first one (GIMP/Photoshop) and fixed it in the process?

The boat looks great, congratulations.

LOL...No apples involved....  thx we're pretty happy with the paint job, automotive specialty shop , they do a lot of Carbon wrap work and clear coat so very picky about the prep.... we were sure he would laugh at our fairing job but he actually thought it was pretty good and only spent a few hours knocking off a few spots. 

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21 hours ago, jhallman said:

We got G2 in and out of the paint shop of 69 North.  Some new best friends, Gary Gomes and Claudio (the artist) had all kinds of opinions on our color selections,20201208_121813.thumb.jpg.6255a4535c306a1054578e0dd6303fcc.jpg allowed us some shop time before to get her thawed and ready, then two colors, followed by clear coat and non-skid and she was ready to trailer back home.  In masking and unmasking the 'new' windows, one of them unseated partially from the adhesive.....  was pretty sure I read the Dow 795 did not require  primer but there is some fine print on the tube that says there IS a primer if you need it?  Unfortunately CR Laurence doesn't seem to carry it so more research required.  Anyways, minor issue, the pics speak for themselves.  Got two sunny clear days for the transport there and back and she is now shrinkwrapped for the winter with enough room to start bolting stuff back on.  Sorry for the pic rotation AGAIN..... seems to be a random thing based on aspect size maybe?

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That looks so good! 

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7 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Man, you guys don't mess around! Glad you got the hard part done first. 

 

Well the inside is looking a bit like a workshop presently, and there are lots of holes to fill with hardware now.  I think I mentioned that we were going to paint in the spring but a spot in the shop opened up so we took it.  Our good friend Bernard Lasporte pitched in with his expertise and labour as well (original builder of the Manta cats, world cruiser on his Lasporte 46 and itching to get out on the racecourse with us).  Painter is hoping to add more boats to his repertoire and we would certainly recommend him.20201204_173840.thumb.jpg.f29c796aecfa78da0c9e41ba7d2c2a49.jpg

 

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Looks awesome... I worry about shrink wrap directly on paint for the winter, especially if it sits in the sun.

I had a project motorcycle with an ok matte paint go bubbly when I stored it under a cover in the sub. I suspect the sunlit cover somehow green-housed and cooked the coating film.

What was once a pretty good looker from 10 feet away now requires a good bit more distance, a later night, and a few more beers... and you best hustle this girl outta the bar before they pop the lights at closing time! She still rides well, but she needs new paint thanks to the sunshine and that cover.

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Thx for the heads up Randii.  We had that discussion with the painter and he assured us the clear coat and paint surface had cured enough that we didn't need to worry about covering it.  We were still careful to use soft lines and we reused the cover we had just put on a couple weeks before so we didn't need to do any heating near the paint just shrunk it a bit more.  We have a pretty high ridge pole and we used clear shrink wrap (OK that was just a shipping error from Uline, always used white in the past) but it does help working underneath as there is lots of light.  We have vents near the peak at both ends to let out the condensation and she is by no means air tight, really more of a top cover than a 'seal' onto the boat.  She will live outside..... at least until Don talks me into a garage/shop enlargement project so I'm not sure what would be harder on her the winter elements or the sun through shrink wrap.  Right now it's pretty hard to imagine it getting warm enough under the cover to 'cook' anything  ;-)  The first scratch will be a heartbreaker!20201211_163049.thumb.jpg.74dd6d086e7c2d63ed6fff8299503ce4.jpg

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I almost left the shrink wrap on to transport it to Toronto for the paint job, might have streamlined the front a bit if that was the plan.  I'd have to trailer it a bit more to decide how a cover might help, wouldn't want to take away from the quick rigging and de rigging at the launch ramp ;-) We are certainly hoping to 'engage' with a few other G32s next summer but haven't had a chance to make any plans yet.  Of course COVID might have something to say about that, the border is pretty thick right now I don't even think we could trailer it across right now and for sure we wouldn't be able to bring it back ourselves we would have to hire a commercial carrier.  We might be able to shame a couple of old foes with F boats back onto the racecourses on Lake Ontario, so far no-one is scheduling regattas here.  We think we are a reacher/screacher away from being competitive right now and all we know about the chute is that it is big and full but as we bolt hardware on over the winter we'll be looking at the sail inventory and what current thinking is vs what we have.

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On 12/15/2020 at 6:34 PM, jhallman said:

I almost left the shrink wrap on to transport it to Toronto for the paint job, might have streamlined the front a bit if that was the plan.  I'd have to trailer it a bit more to decide how a cover might help, wouldn't want to take away from the quick rigging and de rigging at the launch ramp ;-) We are certainly hoping to 'engage' with a few other G32s next summer but haven't had a chance to make any plans yet.  Of course COVID might have something to say about that, the border is pretty thick right now I don't even think we could trailer it across right now and for sure we wouldn't be able to bring it back ourselves we would have to hire a commercial carrier.  We might be able to shame a couple of old foes with F boats back onto the racecourses on Lake Ontario, so far no-one is scheduling regattas here.  We think we are a reacher/screacher away from being competitive right now and all we know about the chute is that it is big and full but as we bolt hardware on over the winter we'll be looking at the sail inventory and what current thinking is vs what we have.

Hopefully we will get the chance to sail in a race or two together in the next year or so. Maybe the Bay City Multihull championships would be fun if we could get a few G32s racing.  The Lake Michigan single handed society has some solo and double handed races that might be fun in the G32 as well. I have some epoxy work that will have to wait until it warms up - Janet will be race ready this spring.  I'll probably invest in a better trailer so I won't worry so much about scuffling the boat when it's on the road.  There's an impressive number of regattas on lake Norman, but no multis. 

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On 12/15/2020 at 2:53 PM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I'm hoping to make a fabric cover I can put on it when I trailer it any distance.. the shrink wrap is a great idea! I'm going to look into that.  Where are you racing next summer?

This is fraught with danger. If the cover can flap or even vibrate it will damage the paint. Better to install guards on the trailer to prevent debris from hitting the boat

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On 12/19/2020 at 9:39 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Hopefully we will get the chance to sail in a race or two together in the next year or so. Maybe the Bay City Multihull championships would be fun if we could get a few G32s racing.  The Lake Michigan single handed society has some solo and double handed races that might be fun in the G32 as well. I have some epoxy work that will have to wait until it warms up - Janet will be race ready this spring.  I'll probably invest in a better trailer so I won't worry so much about scuffling the boat when it's on the road.  There's an impressive number of regattas on lake Norman, but no multis. 

Bay City or other races on Lake Michigan/Lake Huron would be fun with as many G32s as possible! I'm in for trying to make it work if I don't sell before then!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/15/2020 at 2:53 PM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I'm hoping to make a fabric cover I can put on it when I trailer it any distance.. the shrink wrap is a great idea! I'm going to look into that.  Where are you racing next summer?

FWIW, when we had the U20, we used to cover it with blue plastic tarp in the winter.  (Seattle winters usually get a fair amount of wind- up to 30-35 regularly, up to 70 sometimes). So, just draping her and tying the plastic down with the grommets didn’t work in big winds. Flap flap, disintegrate, fly off.  I did finally discover that blue tarp can be cut into panels and sewn with 1/8” (the white stuff) line along the edges, if they aren’t high load areas.  In other words use the grommets to tie the ends down, cut panels so grommets can be used edge to edge,  tied together, that sort of thing.  Eliminate flapping. Keeping the tarp away from anything but the gunwales.  Overlap the panels and edge seams to exploit anticipated wind directions.  Stitch up the loose edges to each other.  Everything under tension. The boat remained dry through 3 winters, and a couple of 50-70 K storms with rain. No damage to paint.  This included Pineapple Expresses. The cockpit and foredeck actually were dusty when we uncovered.  Even wet heavy snow slid off. This was on a trailer.  Takes some experimenting though, and a couple of ridge poles.  Or the mast being down on top of the boat.  With some poles to get rid of sags.  Finding tarp with a lot of grommets was serendipitous.  Kind of fun, actually.  The boat was in dry storage at the north end of Shilshole, which was not protected, and the boat was sideways to the wind and rain.  Did you know that it rains a lot in Seattle? :lol:  In the Winter?  I don’t know if this would work for trailering, but at least you’d know what direction the wind would be coming from!  Maybe something like one of those sailplane box trailers would work?

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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Jan was interested in building a simplified version of the 32, the working title I heard was Jancat24.  I had a brief discussion over email with him about a similar project I was planing at the time where he discussed his vision.  He wanted to build in Stressform, of course.  I was leaning towards S&G as that seems to be more popular.  I had built Stressform and CM tri hulls, and it is a better way to go.  I just figured if there was ever going to be more than one built, four full length seams per hull, always seem more popular than 1.  :)

I thought there was a build thread here for Strings.  I know I saw one somewhere.  There were good pictures of his process for building String's hulls, that were simple stressform hulls covered with carbon cloth.  Really slick.  Can anyone point me to that thread?

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1 hour ago, SimplyDabbling said:

My uncle currently sails Strings out of the Bay City Yacht Club. 

I'm sure he could answer any questions people had?

Cool boat, I hadn’t heard of it before, how does it go. Does he race her ?

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2 hours ago, he b gb said:

Cool boat, I hadn’t heard of it before, how does it go. Does he race her ?

Yeah, they do the Wednesday beercans all summer at BCYC. And they have done a few Chicago to Mac/Port Huron to Mac's. I think this summer they are doing the Queens Cup? Which is I believe Muskegon to Milwaukee and back or something thereabouts

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Here are a couple from the 50th anniversary. Got to go sailing on her in light airs. Really like Jan's previous boat Ollie in the second photo. Self righting and very fast.

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Well sure sign spring has sprung in Canada, the cover came off G2 and we've been busy bolting stuff back on.  Put the rig up to confirm some measurements for new sails and standing rigging.  Managed to get the extended carbon bowsprit with internal spinnaker tack line sorted, working on new carbon steering tubes.  Rebuilt the roller furling disk on the boom.  Since we took the cover off it's rained almost every day so we'll find out how our new window glazing is holding up.  Hope to have a steady stream of pics now that the snow is gone......

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On 3/29/2021 at 11:42 AM, Russell Brown said:

Here are a couple from the 50th anniversary. Got to go sailing on her in light airs. Really like Jan's previous boat Ollie in the second photo. Self righting and very fast.

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Both beautiful boats. Have you seen either of these two sail in heavier airs? I can’t get over the low volume of the bows in Jans designs.

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I've driven the piss out of my G-32 and never felt like it needed more bow. Meade said that he and Jan tried very hard to make it pitchpole and couldn't. The slenderness seems to be what makes so unnaturally dry too. The self righting thing is a whole different reality.

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Just wondering. Could you fit a G-32 inside a 40' shipping container? Would have to be tilted and slid in with a forklift or similar. Just ship it to the Med and cruise there for a season and then ship it back in the fall.

Actually it would go via the Suez. Maybe not...

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The slender bows are part of a logic the pervades the G32.  It's a glider.  If you watch the demo video you will see a boat that is so clean that it leaves almost no wake.  It's like a fish that uses its shape to draw itself upstream.  Pure flow,  I never got tired of her motion.

 

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Russell, I have been bottom fishing again.  I got a Mull, mini-ton from storage in the quaint almost seaside village of Visalia,  it's  a next to the barn find.  Please let me know if you want pictures.  Aloha, Guerdon.

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Russell, 

For your Med trip (or maybe Scandinavia; I can just see it gliding along the rocks and tiny islands in the Baltic; sailing into Copenhagen) you will need a "high cube" container. These are extra tall. A standard 40' won't cut it. Thankfully they are not much more to ship something in. Build a little padded plywood cradle to support the hulls near bow and stern with a few 4x4. Add 4 casters. Make a little plywood ramp so you can unroll it from the container onto the ground. 

You probably should wait until 2022 just to make sure things are back to normal. 

I've got a colleague in Finland who owns a very traditional wooden sailboat. He can sort out a boatyard to have the boat delivered to and have a crane ready to go to tilt it over and then put it in the water.

Have fun. Don't forget to write.

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At this point that's well out of my income bracket, so I won't be writing from somewhere in Europe. Have to admit that I'd really like do that though.

Do you have the inside dimensions of a high-cube container memorized? I'd like them. 

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Actually these days shipping container costs are nuts because not enough boxes to meet demand.

I read a year ago it was about $2500 for a 40' from Shanghai to Long Beach.

A furniture manufacturer said his latest quote was $67,000 due to almost zero availability. i.e. people are bidding for the last available container.

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Shipped the proa from NZ to Port Townsend in a container for $6000.

Had to cut some pretty big parts off to make it fit. Was underway for a trip to the Charlottes 5 days after it came out of the box. I was broke, but had to go.

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The thing that got me stuffed up on the 21 foot version or even the 24 is just figuring out the platform.  If you go as small as 16 foot OAL, an 8 foot beam is perfectly operational without all the fancy self-righting.  So you have the Jarcat which is a fun boat that a lot of people like and works relative well as a small camper.  I suppose with a big enough rig and a light enough build you could capsize it easily enough, but people are OK with it in conventional terms.

At one time a 24 foot boat and an 8 foot beam, as a ratio of 1-3 was considered ocean viable.  I think some Wharrams were built to those proportions, though they would not have been good for competitive racing, and where soon adjusted to a 1-2 ratio of beam to length as the format was better understood.

Boats tend to look similar in the ratio of mast height to waterline length regardless of size.  So if one looks at a line of boats like the KHSD 23, 26, 30, etc...  The profile views in the sailplan, all look similar, despite different sizes.  So as the boats get smaller the sail plans vary to the 2nd power, while the displacement varies to the 3rd power. So if you halve the boats length the sail plan would be 4 times smaller, while the displacement would be 8 times smaller.  Given the fixed beam on a G-X design you do not suffer that loss of righting due to declining beam, you are fixed at 8 feet, and both displacement and sail area are 2nd order changes as the boat gets smaller, and you gain in beam ratio as the boat gets smaller.  So a 24 should be a lot stiffer.

A G-24, compared to a G-32 does have a steeper righting angle if the mast length (and presumably sail area) remain in ratio to length.  Given that the beam is fixed at 8 feet.  It would take more offset of the boat to mast angle to pop it back up after capsize, and that ratio is not inconsequential.  In the Maxi design it is shown self-righting with the water ballast pulling it back up.  The G-32 (according to the video) is supposed to be very stable with the water ballast, there should be less reason for a G-24 to capsize with water ballast given the better beam ratio, but it would also be harder to pop back up when it did capsize (whether with or without water ballast), due to the steeper angle on the water after capsize (same beam proportionally shorter mast).  Of course live ballast is a lot more effective on the smaller boat...

This led me to consider building her narrower than 8 feet, possibly 6 feet, with the more carefree trailering that implies.  I go through two of the crazier large cities on my way to the east coast and as time goes by my desire to hit lane reduction, at speed, and without warning, while trailering a whale, has declined.  But give up beam...  I would have to be crazy.

I don't have Jan Gougeon's experience in type, and he was uniquely capable designer, I haven't made much progress with the idea of the 24 over the years.  I did build a 16 foot plywood cat for motoring about 25 years ago, so I knew I could build the platform and had some feel for the how solid they are, so there was that.

 

I hope someone builds the Maxi at some point, and maybe some questions will be answered.  A few minor issues to consider with any build is to be sure to keep the hull interior clean for the water ballast,  which is where the Stressform and carbon have appeal.  The format would be similar to my KHSD amas, but they have a lot of interior clutter.  Fine when they are kept dry but ensuring a lot of stringers and bulkheads are impermeable when containing water would be a problem better avoided. 

Another super feature, and all the more impressive if you have ever had to handle your build over the years, is the way the G-32 was supported on a lifting trailer.  This allows the two to be separated at will, or for  the G-32 to be launched in a puddle.  This requires the cabin to be designed to carry all the trailering loads.  I don't know if the Maxi is designed to allow that, it takes some pretty rugged construction, like core in the cabin sole, to pull it off is my guess.

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Thanks for the old copy of Epoxyworks Mrs O.  I have been a subscriber since it was Boatbuilder.  I only recently tossed all the copies, so it was good to see that story.  I have only a few posts on this forum, and have been a member here since February 2011.  I think that would have been when I stumbled over the thread here, I was a very late arrival on the thread.  It was  a bit annoying to have missed all the action when I had been very curious about all the references to Project X and there had been a thread here (or wherever it was) all along.  Normally I would archive pages of something that interesting, but I don't know that I did.

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I love Ollie.  I made a pilgrimage to Bay City to "survey" Ollie, and I shot some VHS video of it. JR was kind enough to show us around the facility, and to let us loose in the boat shed.  I remember his commenting that the right angle bend from the beam to the ama, took way more carbon than anyone had imagined it would, to get it firm.  Good thing they had in-house engineering! A hugely complicated simplification from the simple bracket on Meade's boat. 

That iteration of the boat shown above has the revised amas on it.  Originally they were made of two proa hulls glued together from the Gougeon proa canoe.  Last seen that plan had moved to Butler Projects, though they don't list it.  Here it is from 2017.  They would probably sell it to you.  I have an old copy from way back.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150226005649/http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/outrigger/index.htm

When I visited Bay City, a Stressform half mold for a torpedo ama was sitting outside the shop, taking on rot, though I don't think it was the same mold, it was a little stubbier.  I forget, it was a long time ago.  But that was how they made the mold, it was stressform, and then internally detailed for a mold.  The deck jig was permanently attached.  Or that was how they made a mold for a similar ama, can't say for sure how they made the Ollie torpedo.  So to bring this digression back to G-32 land, not only were the tris like Ollie earlier self righting boats, but maybe those ama experiments were earlier  exercises in glass molding hulls that eventually fed into the G-32 development.

 

Presumably most people saw this, another formative event that led to self righting multihulls. 

https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/surviving-flickas-capsize/?hilite='jan'%2C'gougeon'

I wonder who holds the record for the most self righting in a single multihull race.  I saw a record in the New England Multihulls club of Jan winning a race after multiple (3?) capsizes.  If you remember the OSTAR committee's response to Cheer's pre-sponsoon capsize where they worried about whether multiple capsizes on route to the finish line was really consistent with good seamanship, well their worst nightmare...

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To continue the drift slightly, I've seen how the 32 was rerighted, but have always wondered the process for Ollie?

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On 4/5/2021 at 4:25 PM, ALL@SEA said:

To continue the drift slightly, I've seen how the 32 was rerighted, but have always wondered the process for Ollie?

There's a G32 promotion video on you tube that shows the Gougeon trimaran self righting process. 

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11 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

There's a G32 promotion video on you tube that shows the Gougeon trimaran self righting process. 

Thought I'd watched all those, and only saw the G32 being righted - no tris.

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Quote

Easy righting wasn't a new concept for the Gougeon brothers Their experiences with rightable multihulls such as Splinter and Ollie helped them create a sophisticated righting system for the Gougeon 32.

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It occurred to me how similar the tunnel hulled scow Dominion is to the G32. In fact there's an article floating around concerning Dominion's rating, and how such a design shouldn't be allowed to compete against monohulls.  The article is over 100 years old and it reflects the same conversations rating committees have today. 

Granted, I only spoke to Jan and Meade a couple of times, and the Dominion scow never came up in the conversation; so I don't know if this design directly influenced Jan when he was imagineering the G32. 

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On 4/8/2021 at 10:27 AM, ProaSailor said:

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Thanks -I hadn't noticed that little snippet - I take it the (tri) system relies on the low volume amas, not pitchpoling, and the buoyancy of the wing mast? Despite having a wing mast, Russel has kept the mast float - I guess more volume'd be required in the mast to lose the float. 

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On 4/8/2021 at 10:49 PM, ALL@SEA said:

Thanks -I hadn't noticed that little snippet - I take it the (tri) system relies on the low volume amas, not pitchpoling, and the buoyancy of the wing mast? Despite having a wing mast, Russel has kept the mast float - I guess more volume'd be required in the mast to lose the float. 

I believe Ollie has water ballast in the amas, but I don't know if that actually plays a role in the righting process.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
18 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Wait, Whose boat is that? What a cool paint job!

The MI based owner named the boat "Boom Chicka Bow Bow" because the boat has a boom, two bows and she's a chick.

She designed the look herself and wow... 

 

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I like the tuna fish stuck on top of the mast.....

A mad thought:

AC75’s seem to have an adjustable mast crane between the two mainsail skins to control head shape and AoA. How hard could it be to design a G32 topmast float shape to end plate a full hoist square headed mainsail? Or maybe slide up and down the track with it?

Two birds with one stone?

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11 hours ago, Sidecar said:

I like the tuna fish stuck on top of the mast.....

A mad thought:

AC75’s seem to have an adjustable mast crane between the two mainsail skins to control head shape and AoA. How hard could it be to design a G32 topmast float shape to end plate a full hoist square headed mainsail? Or maybe slide up and down the track with it?

Two birds with one stone?

That tuna fish removes the worry about capsize. Until you have tried it...

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19 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

That tuna fish removes the worry about capsize. Until you have tried it...

I am aware it is a masthead float, I just couldn’t recall them with fish tail vanes at the back...... I might stick a sliding one attached to the the mainsail head on Sidecar, as much for the end plate as for turning turtle prevention.

My masthead, due to its rake to leeward, hits the water before the boat gets to 90 degrees, so it could be more effective than for a G32 for turning turtle resistance?

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  • 2 months later...
On 4/25/2021 at 10:24 AM, Sidecar said:

I am aware it is a masthead float, I just couldn’t recall them with fish tail vanes at the back...... I might stick a sliding one attached to the the mainsail head on Sidecar, as much for the end plate as for turning turtle prevention.

My masthead, due to its rake to leeward, hits the water before the boat gets to 90 degrees, so it could be more effective than for a G32 for turning turtle resistance?

You and Russell are playing a dangerous game with this conversation.  I feel like you two have said "Beetlejuice" twice now! ;)

 

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On 1/1/2021 at 1:57 PM, Amati said:

FWIW, when we had the U20, we used to cover it with blue plastic tarp in the winter.  (Seattle winters usually get a fair amount of wind- up to 30-35 regularly, up to 70 sometimes). So, just draping her and tying the plastic down with the grommets didn’t work in big winds. Flap flap, disintegrate, fly off.  I did finally discover that blue tarp can be cut into panels and sewn with 1/8” (the white stuff) line along the edges, if they aren’t high load areas.  In other words use the grommets to tie the ends down, cut panels so grommets can be used edge to edge,  tied together, that sort of thing.  Eliminate flapping. Keeping the tarp away from anything but the gunwales.  Overlap the panels and edge seams to exploit anticipated wind directions.  Stitch up the loose edges to each other.  Everything under tension. The boat remained dry through 3 winters, and a couple of 50-70 K storms with rain. No damage to paint.  This included Pineapple Expresses. The cockpit and foredeck actually were dusty when we uncovered.  Even wet heavy snow slid off. This was on a trailer.  Takes some experimenting though, and a couple of ridge poles.  Or the mast being down on top of the boat.  With some poles to get rid of sags.  Finding tarp with a lot of grommets was serendipitous.  Kind of fun, actually.  The boat was in dry storage at the north end of Shilshole, which was not protected, and the boat was sideways to the wind and rain.  Did you know that it rains a lot in Seattle? :lol:  In the Winter?  I don’t know if this would work for trailering, but at least you’d know what direction the wind would be coming from!  Maybe something like one of those sailplane box trailers would work?

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Amati, do you have a sailplane to go with that nice trailer?

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1 hour ago, pironiero said:

what speed are these things capable of?

I've seen one of Russell's video where he was doing a nice easy 12-14 knots. No drama.

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45 minutes ago, Zonker said:
2 hours ago, pironiero said:

what speed are these things capable of?

I've seen one of Russell's video where he was doing a nice easy 12-14 knots. No drama.

Russell is a good, careful, conservative driver. I am sure he could go a lot faster if he wanted to.

G32 with Russell’s rig gives indicative flat water Base Speeds:

Main & jib: 10.2 knots, Main and screecher: 11.6 knots.

These numbers indicate approximate maximum upwind speed, and the boat should be capable of double that off the wind.

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6 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Amati, do you have a sailplane to go with that nice trailer?

I wish….

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On 7/29/2021 at 8:19 PM, Sidecar said:

Russell is a good, careful, conservative driver. I am sure he could go a lot faster if he wanted to.

G32 with Russell’s rig gives indicative flat water Base Speeds:

Main & jib: 10.2 knots, Main and screecher: 11.6 knots.

These numbers indicate approximate maximum upwind speed, and the boat should be capable of double that off the wind.

Where did you find those flat water boatspeeds?  Do you know the TWS that goes along with those boatspeeds?  

I've been trying to figure out the fastest/most controllable sail/ballast combinations with John on Flipper this year. And getting an average 10.6 knots upwind with just a main and jib is impressive.  Maybe the taller rig really does make a tangible difference.  

I wish there were more of these boats around, and more people were racing them. I have a feeling there's a great deal of untapped potential that would be easier to find if you had several of them racing against each other. 

 

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On 7/29/2021 at 7:53 PM, Zonker said:

I've seen one of Russell's video where he was doing a nice easy 12-14 knots. No drama.

The Drama for us starts around 16 knots of boatspeed, and when the water ballast is needed to keep her on her feet. 

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I don't think it's so easy to get real numbers. Does my boat go 10 upwind?  Maybe sometimes, but more like 8 if I'm making 90 degrees between tacks and slower in short chop. 

My taller rig adds very little sail area. The jib is the same size. The real benefit is the higher hoist for the screecher and spinnaker. Greg Bull sent me his rating sheet and my boat had less sail area. His main has a bigger top and his spinnaker is much bigger.

 

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2 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Where did you find those flat water boatspeeds?  Do you know the TWS that goes along with those boatspeeds?  

Mine is an old version of Base Speed formula I use to get a rough comparative idea between boats, and also to evaluate different combinations of the 3 inputs, namely LWL, SA and Displ. Differently tweaked Base Speed versions are behind OMR, Texel and MOCRA multihull rating rules. The latest version is here, under II Performance indicators:

http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=34

There are no wind speeds given, but top upwind speeds are most likely to occur somewhere between 10 and 15 knots with full sail, flying a hull. Sidecar “lifts” at ~ 9 knots boat speed upwind.

Best to use the white sail Base Speed. The screecher one is more for off wind numbers. Upwind you couldn’t carry it in 10-15 knots wind and you probably will lose some pointing ability when you do fly it. But it should add extra speed under ~ 8 knots, especially in chop and slop. Russell will know more.

And Russell is right, chop and rough water knocks off a lot of those speeds. Sidecar, in the washing machine conditions we get in Norfolk Bay (multiple swell directions and backwash)  can do 10- 11 knots in dead flat water near an offshore edge but can easily drop down to 7-8 knots out in the middle of the bay.

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