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Night Runner is on the market


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42 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

Looks like the topsides are due to be wooded. Love the cockpit with the wheel fwd like that. Nice boat. As long as you stay on a stbd tack. 

DSC_0090.jpg

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I dunno about "wooding the topsides" - pretty certain they were sealed with epoxy then varnish.

Damn, if I was 15 years younger (and could travel to the States) I'd be be on that like a cheap suit. I've loved that boat since it was born - Perry's best IMO.

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That's alot of boat for the price and I'm sure there's wiggle rm.  Have to say I would paint the hull straight away.  Probably would strip all the topside bright work and go back to varnish too but that's the crazy person in me.  There does seem to be alot of really great boats out there right now in the 80-150 range. 

It does look like it would be a bit cold and wet up top, not sure what there is for any canvas in the pics.  Probably not what was in mind for use.

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5 hours ago, European Bloke said:

I'd like to know the story behind that companion way. What was the owner request that caused that?

Looking at the interior, it allows for a nice aft cabin with a Pullman berth under that offset bridge deck.

Glad to see she's on the market rather than rotting away like happens in lots of estate cases. Here's hoping she goes to a good home.

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Have to say I would paint the hull straight away. 

Sass, you're a credit to this community and I hope to meet up in person some day but AFAIC you just disqualified yourself from owning NR.

If Swiftsure doesn't have a "no paint" covenant in their purchase and sale agreement, it should be the last Perry boat they're allowed to handle.

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Beautiful boat, the 8 feet draft might be a bit too much for my waters. As for the delivery to Brittany, easy peasy Polynesia -> New Zealand -> Cape horn -> Argentina  -> Brazil -> Azores -> Home :)

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7 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Beautiful boat, the 8 feet draft might be a bit too much for my waters. As for the delivery to Brittany, easy peasy Polynesia -> New Zealand -> Cape horn -> Argentina  -> Brazil -> Azores -> Home :)

A gentle daysail :D 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:
1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

 Have to say I would paint the hull straight away. 

Philistine!

Pedro_Berruguete_Saint_Dominic_Presiding_over_an_Auto-da-fe_1495.thumb.jpg.59557b2a9e54f5429efb4cb37fd628d5.jpgI'm with Sloop.  Even the suggestion of painting Nightrunner is the sort of heresy that demands an auto da fe

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43 minutes ago, IStream said:

Sass, you're a credit to this community and I hope to meet up in person some day but AFAIC you just disqualified yourself from owning NR.

If Swiftsure doesn't have a "no paint" covenant in their purchase and sale agreement, it should be the last Perry boat they're allowed to handle.

No worries there, pretty sure "honey look at this wood boat we should buy" would result in a hospital visit for me. 

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9 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I guess it's hard to understand the  NIGHT RUNNER companionway if you have never heard of Phil Rhodes, to name one designer who used this feature.

I was hoping for a bit more than, 'I copied it off a mate'. I'm sure there are good reasons, just interested to hear them.

She's a lovely yacht, one I'd be very happy to do a tough passage on, especially on starboard. My dad would have loved those chart drawers...

On the list of boats I'd rather admire than own.

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It seems to me that to run a boat like Nightrunner, you need either

  • plenty of cash for the ongoing maintenance, and a team of committed crew to help keep her in shape

or

  • Huge wodges of cash to pay a full-service boatyard to keep her in top shape on a money-no-object basis

These days, people in work have less spare time and energy than was the case with Doug's generation, so the first option seems less likely.  That means that Nightrunner needs the very rich owner.  And since she doesn't come as part of an overtly big-money scene like the Maine varnished-boat scene, I wonder if Nightrunner will attract that sort of owner.

My fear is that as an estate sale, she will be sold for 75% of the low asking price to someone who will struggle to maintain her and struggle to drive her as hard ... so she will lose her cachet, and begin a process of decline.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

It seems to me that to run a boat like Nightrunner, you need either

  • plenty of cash for the ongoing maintenance, and a team of committed crew to help keep her in shape

or

  • Huge wodges of cash to pay a full-service boatyard to keep her in top shape on a money-no-object basis

These days, people in work have less spare time and energy than was the case with Doug's generation, so the first option seems less likely.  That means that Nightrunner needs the very rich owner.  And since she doesn't come as part of an overtly big-money scene like the Maine varnished-boat scene, I wonder if Nightrunner will attract that sort of owner.

My fear is that as an estate sale, she will be sold for 75% of the low asking price to someone who will struggle to maintain her and struggle to drive her as hard ... so she will lose her cachet, and begin a process of decline.

AFAIU she is cold molded and the maintenance of a cold molded boat is nowhere near as bad as for a classic wood planked boat, IMO it is closer to what you need to keep a plywood boat afloat. So may be not that bad assuming that somebody who knows about "modern" wooden boats falls in love.

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That boats made to race.  Maintenance will be all about the rig.  Hull in the PNW shouldn't be any worse than any other boat.  Especially when painted haha.  Al Mason used the offset mid fwd companionway too.  It gives some nice options below.  

Is Thunderhead the one with the huge Tumblehome?  Think I saw it at the WBF once.  That one was different.

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Bloke:

Take a look at the layout, as per owners requirements. That aft cabin needs that companionway to work. I had to get the companionway ladder out of the aft cabin. Having seen that offset companionway used several times before I thought was a reasonable solution.

 

NR layout (Medium).jpg

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I suspect she could be made into a decent (not rule cheating, just decent) IRC racer as IRC likes medium heavy boats without a bulb and she would get age bonuses (or however they call that). That would be the perfect boat to complete Cowes-Dinard or the Fastnet in style and comfort while still having fun. Stuff like pole length and max genoa size would probably have to be optimised.

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17 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I guess it's hard to understand the  NIGHT RUNNER companionway if you have never heard of Phil Rhodes, to name one designer who used this feature.

Also LFH and John Alden. Spent quite a bit of time on a 63’ Alden yawl with a very similar companion way which made for a very livable aft cabin with a single berth to port and a large double to stbd under the walkway to the companion way. 

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Is Thunderhead the one with the huge Tumblehome?  Think I saw it at the WBF once.  That one was different.

image.png.b14db38551d382912dacd2b06dcb19ba.pngimage.png.bf390c3570bdab31285745957e2fffb3.png

One of Rhodes finest - and that's saying something.

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21 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

image.png.b14db38551d382912dacd2b06dcb19ba.pngimage.png.bf390c3570bdab31285745957e2fffb3.png

One of Rhodes finest - and that's saying something.

Nope that's a different one than I saw, she is a pretty boat for sure.  Pic looks like the bow is up a little from the layout.  Might just be the pic or no boot stripe. 

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19 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Bloke:

Take a look at the layout, as per owners requirements. That aft cabin needs that companionway to work. I had to get the companionway ladder out of the aft cabin. Having seen that offset companionway used several times before I thought was a reasonable solution.

 

NR layout (Medium).jpg

I see so it's the combination of the rear cabin and short cockpit. Thank you.

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On 7/26/2020 at 5:14 AM, TwoLegged said:

It seems to me that to run a boat like Nightrunner, you need either

  • plenty of cash for the ongoing maintenance, and a team of committed crew to help keep her in shape

or

  • Huge wodges of cash to pay a full-service boatyard to keep her in top shape on a money-no-object basis

These days, people in work have less spare time and energy than was the case with Doug's generation, so the first option seems less likely.  That means that Nightrunner needs the very rich owner.  And since she doesn't come as part of an overtly big-money scene like the Maine varnished-boat scene, I wonder if Nightrunner will attract that sort of owner.

For a liveaboard it's not much different than taking care of a house.

I'd do it.

Not this year though.

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All references to LFH and other proponents of white-painted topsides aside, Night Runner is by definition a bright-finished boat. The very first thing I thought of when I read the title of this thread was that beautiful clear-finished wood cleaving through the water, and I have only drooled over her from afar.  For those who have watched her grace their waters for the past few decades, I can only imagine "paint her topsides white" are fighting words. 

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For those of you concerned about the companionway, I've been aboard her in one of those epics knockdowns to starboard, you know the kind that has the mast close to horizontal for a couple of minutes with the spinnaker trying to flog the mast out of the boat and the atheists all suddenly convert to Christianity.  She didn't have the hatch boards in place and didn't ship a drop below.  She took good care of us, as always.

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8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Why would I draw a dangerous boat? The original Valiant 40 companionway is as offset is is NR's. No one dead yet.

I know of a V40 that has done a couple of 360’s and is still afloat...

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On 7/28/2020 at 11:50 PM, sam_crocker said:

For those of you concerned about the companionway, I've been aboard her in one of those epics knockdowns to starboard, you know the kind that has the mast close to horizontal for a couple of minutes with the spinnaker trying to flog the mast out of the boat and the atheists all suddenly convert to Christianity.  She didn't have the hatch boards in place and didn't ship a drop below.  She took good care of us, as always.

FFS!  Night Runner has 10's of thousands of miles under her keel and apparently without a catastrophic hatch problem an obviously still afloat!  Ditto the Valiant 40's, cruising hall of famers.

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13 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

FFS!  Night Runner has 10's of thousands of miles under her keel and apparently without a catastrophic hatch problem an obviously still afloat!  Ditto the Valiant 40's, cruising hall of famers.

No no no!  It's all an illusion.

Offset companionway, so NR  sank on her first outing ;) 

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Isn't that some probability theory mindfück anyway?

I mean, I think it's fair to assume that your boat sails on port tack amd on starboard tack 50% of the time each. You don't know from which side you get hit. If you get hit on the wrong side, the possibility of a catastrophic event goes up, and is higher than with a centered companionway. The opposite is true if you get hit on the right side, i.e., where there is more distance to the companionway than with a centered one.

So that should cancel out over 100% sailing time.

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On 8/5/2020 at 7:20 PM, Hawaiidart said:

Do you know where? Cap Sante or Anacortes Marina perhaps?

Black double spreader rig, should be easy enough to find.

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On 7/26/2020 at 4:14 AM, TwoLegged said:

It seems to me that to run a boat like Nightrunner, you need either

  • plenty of cash for the ongoing maintenance, and a team of committed crew to help keep her in shape

or

  • Huge wodges of cash to pay a full-service boatyard to keep her in top shape on a money-no-object basis

These days, people in work have less spare time and energy than was the case with Doug's generation, so the first option seems less likely.  That means that Nightrunner needs the very rich owner.  And since she doesn't come as part of an overtly big-money scene like the Maine varnished-boat scene, I wonder if Nightrunner will attract that sort of owner.

My fear is that as an estate sale, she will be sold for 75% of the low asking price to someone who will struggle to maintain her and struggle to drive her as hard ... so she will lose her cachet, and begin a process of decline.

You're confusing Maine with Nantucket. Maybe Camden is a little like that, but I'm not in Camden enough to know. We've spent exactly 3 nights there in 16 years of cruising the coast, all three for races. 

It's a great boat at a great price. Would look nice in Maine. 

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On 8/4/2020 at 2:16 PM, Matagi said:

Isn't that some probability theory mindfück anyway?

I mean, I think it's fair to assume that your boat sails on port tack amd on starboard tack 50% of the time each. You don't know from which side you get hit. If you get hit on the wrong side, the possibility of a catastrophic event goes up, and is higher than with a centered companionway. The opposite is true if you get hit on the right side, i.e., where there is more distance to the companionway than with a centered one.

So that should cancel out over 100% sailing time.

Ah, but you have to weight the probabilities for outcomes. Knockdown on port, offset hatch adds a small additional degree of downflood protection. Knockdown to starboard, it vastly increases downflood potential. 

It's sorta like side-collision auto tests. In theory, a car is equally likely to be hit in either door. But there's always someone sitting in the drivers seat; only a passenger maybe half the time. So you focus your airbags, frame-strengthening, etc on the driver's side.

The above is tongue-in-cheek, but only a little bit. That's how risk-assessment actually works. We did a lot of it in climbing, especially alpine climbing:. The decision tree , weighted, reads something like this: 

Q1: How likely is it something will go wrong?

Q2: What are the likely consequences of something going wrong?

Q3: How much effort is required to mitigate either the risk, or the consequences?

Q4: What additional risks or consequences are introduced by mitigation efforts? 

So you come to a narrow ridge traverse with long scree slopes to either side. The crest is easy, maybe class 2 with a few class 3 sections. Should you rope up and belay? Well, the terrain is easier than anything you've done on the way up, so maybe not? You aren't very likely to fall. BUT: if one of you does fall, mangling or death and a brutal rescue/recovery is near certainty. BUT: Roping up means dropping everything, setting an anchor, flaking out the rope, tying in, possibly setting intermediate gear, setting anchors on the other side, and belaying across your partner .... for 200 feet of ridgeline. BUT: doing that, several times if you are maximally cautious, increases your risk exposure by leaving you subject to fatigue, lightning, and rockfall much longer. So do you chance it?

I've climbed with partners who spent so much time mitigating risks, we rarely tagged a summit & often found ourselves stormed off or rappelling in the dark. I've also climbed with people who third-class over 5.7 sandy slabs in tennies with 500 foot drops to the talus zone when I really, really wanted a rope thanks. Some in the latter category are no longer with us. But while they were, they covered some freakin' ground.

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5 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

I've climbed with partners who spent so much time mitigating risks, we rarely tagged a summit & often found ourselves stormed off or rappelling in the dark. I've also climbed with people who third-class over 5.7 sandy slabs in tennies with 500 foot drops to the talus zone when I really, really wanted a rope thanks. Some in the latter category are no longer with us. But while they were, they covered some freakin' ground.

Don't discount the fact that nothing looks cooler on a headstone than the phrase, "They covered some freakin' ground!"

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8 minutes ago, IStream said:

Don't discount the fact that nothing looks cooler on a headstone than the phrase, "They covered some freakin' ground!"

That would be cool! Fitting epitaph for someone like Alex Lowe, who was really great at dynamic risk assessment ... til the top of a mountain fell on him. 

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  • 8 months later...

This is my Grandfather Doug Fryer’s boat. If any of you ever sailed with him in the last 25 years there is a good chance we have met. I’ve spent my entire life on this boat and even have it tattooed on my arm. To who ever ends up buying it, I’d love to go for a sail with you. 

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On 8/4/2020 at 1:40 AM, zenmasterfred said:

FFS!  Night Runner has 10's of thousands of miles under her keel and apparently without a catastrophic hatch problem an obviously still afloat!  Ditto the Valiant 40's, cruising hall of famers.

Just as an informational side note on this - the Pride (of Baltimore) aft hatch was offset, and was a primary source of her down flooding and sinking - with both USCG and NTSB incident reports. It was also an issue in the Marques sinking - with again a recommendation that 'all hatches should be on centerline' (the pride reports were specific that this applied to all sizes of vessels and not just these large historic ones) These incidents had significant reverberations throughout sailing safety thinking.  Night Runner is ofc quite a different design than these two casualties . . but, one needs to be careful discarding hard earned lessons learned. 

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On 7/26/2020 at 2:28 AM, European Bloke said:

I was hoping for a bit more than, 'I copied it off a mate'. I'm sure there are good reasons, just interested to hear them.

She's a lovely yacht, one I'd be very happy to do a tough passage on, especially on starboard. My dad would have loved those chart drawers...

On the list of boats I'd rather admire than own.

From the broker's description: "An offset companionway allows for a roomy aft stateroom and salon layout that feels larger than her 42 feet." Perhaps there is a  death wish there too.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

From the broker's description: "An offset companionway allows for a roomy aft stateroom and salon layout that feels larger than her 42 feet." Perhaps there is a  death wish there too.

Only if you take a redhead into that aft stateroom.

I'm surprised that Runner is still on the market - I expected it to sell in days.

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6 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Just as an informational side note on this - the Pride (of Baltimore) aft hatch was offset, and was a primary source of her down flooding and sinking - with both USCG and NTSB incident reports. It was also an issue in the Marques sinking - with again a recommendation that 'all hatches should be on centerline' (the pride reports were specific that this applied to all sizes of vessels and not just these large historic ones) These incidents had significant reverberations throughout sailing safety thinking.  Night Runner is ofc quite a different design than these two casualties . . but, one needs to be careful discarding hard earned lessons learned. 

Don't see any mention of companionways.

chrome_screenshot_1620261561803.png

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6 hours ago, eliboat said:

She’s obviously unsellable with the offset companion way.   

Here's another sinker languishing on the market surprisingly both Night Runner and Sunstone have yet to succumb to their inherent design weakness and have racked up countless miles...

Ohh sold now.

IMG_2647.thumb.JPG.e62025e9bd07547ed958f6f5e24d7cfd.JPG  

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Friggin' death trap I say, and wood to boot.  If god had meant boats to be built out of wood it would float.  That's what we used to say about ferrocement anyway.

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37 minutes ago, zenmasterfred said:

Friggin' death trap I say, and wood to boot.  If god had meant boats to be built out of wood it would float.  That's what we used to say about ferrocement anyway.

Truer words have never been uttered.  Amazing Sunstone sailed all the worlds oceans without death….miraculous. 

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Just goes to show how a good long run of blind luck can overcome the crippling handicaps of design flaws and incompetent crews.

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16 minutes ago, IStream said:

Just goes to show how a good long run of blind luck can overcome the crippling handicaps of design flaws and incompetent crews.

Or to put it more succinctly, it's better to be lucky than good.

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33 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Or to put it more succinctly, it's better to be lucky than good.

In the short run, yeah.

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

In the short run, yeah.

You sound like a poker player?  :D

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10 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Don't see any mention of companionways.

 

Need to read only just a bit deeper - "Downflooding" - the aft offset hatch was the only hatch open and she was knocked down toward that hatch. Toward that offset, that hatch began to flood at 53 degree.

I'm not sure how easy those full reports are to get now (I think they were archived to microfiche) - but it is described in some detail in "Tall Ship Down".  

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23 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Toward that offset, that hatch began to flood at 53 degree.

That puts it in some perspective.  An offset companion way with a static flood angle of 100 degrees is a different kettle of fish.

Offset only matters in so much as it affects the down-flood angle, but unfortunately that's not an easy metric to determine without stability calculations.  A boat of "normal" proportions with a center-line companionway won't start flooding until around 110 degrees of heel, usually.  Could be substantially higher if she's beamy or just large (the companionway width becomes smaller relative to the beam).  Offset can be fine if the geometry works out.

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29 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Offset only matters in so much as it affects the down-flood angle, but unfortunately that's not an easy metric to determine without stability calculations.  A boat of "normal" proportions with a center-line companionway won't start flooding until around 110 degrees of heel, usually.  Could be substantially higher if she's beamy or just large (the companionway width becomes smaller relative to the beam).  Offset can be fine if the geometry works out.

It depends what you call "normal" proportions, modern boats that are wide and light don't really down-flood as the companionway stays above the water until the boat is nearly inverted.

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35 minutes ago, MFH125 said:

Offset can be fine if the geometry works out.

absolutely agree. It is a balance between down flooding angle and stability.

The OSR's specify the hatches shall be above the water at 90 degree heel, which I rather suspect Nightrunner's is.  I believe (but have not looked in a while) that the school ship requirement was 60 degrees.

I was just trying to provide some perspective on why/where the 'off center = death trap" became a meme. The quick succession of loss of Pride and Marques back in the '80's was a shock to the traditional sailing crowd.  Those vessels had many issues - perhaps the biggest was they were in fact not sailing in their historical configuration - were modified in ways which reduced their stability. I'd rather we dont lose or dismiss the lessons earned with the blood of sailors.   "off center' is an inaccurate short hand, but is more easily understood and seen than 'down flooding angle'.

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26 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

modern boats that are wide and light don't really down-flood as the companionway stays above the water

I concur. I "tested" this on my J22. With the top of the mast and my brother-in-law in the (55º F) water, the companionway was comfortably above the water.

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It's seems they did make some changes as a result, I remember them bitching about having to put water tight bulkheads and doors in on Spike Africa when it was refit to meet USCG requirements.  

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10 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

 water tight bulkheads and doors

one thing that has struck me across many incident reports . . is how infrequently watertight doors and bulkheads actually are (watertight) . . . because they are all left open.

does not mean they are a stupid thing.  We put them on Hawk.  But if they are going to mean anything they have to be combined with training and procedures which will get them closed.  And that needs to happen quickly, even when the ship is at a significant angle already.  Some of these down flooding and sinking's only took 2 minutes.

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That is the issue with any openings.  You can add all sorts of stuff but if not used it's useless.  The up side it would seem is that minimum requirements were raised and the guess work factor has been reduced.  When you have known and tested stability and safety procedures then there is at least a process to follow.  A vessel operating with lots of grey is a risk to any crew.

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2 hours ago, MFH125 said:

That puts it in some perspective.  An offset companion way with a static flood angle of 100 degrees is a different kettle of fish.

Offset only matters in so much as it affects the down-flood angle, but unfortunately that's not an easy metric to determine without stability calculations.  A boat of "normal" proportions with a center-line companionway won't start flooding until around 110 degrees of heel, usually.  Could be substantially higher if she's beamy or just large (the companionway width becomes smaller relative to the beam).  Offset can be fine if the geometry works out.

Or one can just close the hatches when the weather gets sporty.

Too simple?

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

I was just trying to provide some perspective on why/where the 'off center = death trap" became a meme.

IIRC it was in response to some fanaticism of Brent Swain.

It became a standing joke more than a meme.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Amazingly many of us anarchists have survived some bumpy weather in sailing vessels w/ offset hatches and lived to tell the tales.  Who would have thought it could be so?  I count myself as one of the lucky ones.  Of course those lost at sea due to tragic offset companyways are not here to tell their stories.  So It Goes!

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Given the races Sunstone entered, she would have had quite good stability and down flooding angle - would be interesting to see her IMS stability data, I would guess rather good for a 1965 centerboard racing design.

She is an S&S masterpiece.  And Tom and Vicky are quite competent and focused individuals - they kept her athletically trim, made a few small concessions for the high latitude cruising but never compromised the boat. 

yea, great boat and great people.

 

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If you look across the range of boats which have done amazing things (small boat solo RTW's and blue water awards and such), I think you  have to conclude that some combination of skipper skill & tenacity and the fortunately relatively rare occurrence of extreme events (like really large breaking waves and white squalls and such) is really more the common theme than particular boat design characteristics (the variety of boats across these sorts of accomplishments is really wide).

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27 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

If you look across the range of boats which have done amazing things (small boat solo RTW's and blue water awards and such), I think you  have to conclude that some combination of skipper skill & tenacity and the fortunately relatively rare occurrence of extreme events (like really large breaking waves and white squalls and such) is really more the common theme than particular boat design characteristics (the variety of boats across these sorts of accomplishments is really wide).

Looking at the boats that Webb Chiles has used, I have to agree - It's the skipper, stupid!

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