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Stable Centerboard Dingy


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Need a centerboard boat for a cold northern lake.  Can either keep the boat on a mooring and dingy out to the boat, or trailer it 1 mile to the boat ramp.  Would prefer the mooring but concerned about trying to get from an 8' zodiac into the boat without going for a swim, so the boat needs to be very stable.  If trailer sailing the boat needs to be quick set-up at the ramp.  Something modern with set-bailing cockpit and assy on a sprit would be ideal, but this is just for afternoon daysailing so performance not the priority.  Suggestions?

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55 minutes ago, BobSled@1 said:

Need a centerboard boat for a cold northern lake.  Can either keep the boat on a mooring and dingy out to the boat, or trailer it 1 mile to the boat ramp.  Would prefer the mooring but concerned about trying to get from an 8' zodiac into the boat without going for a swim, so the boat needs to be very stable.  If trailer sailing the boat needs to be quick set-up at the ramp.  Something modern with set-bailing cockpit and assy on a sprit would be ideal, but this is just for afternoon daysailing so performance not the priority.  Suggestions?

Single or two or more person?

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1 hour ago, BobSled@1 said:

Need a centerboard boat for a cold northern lake.  Can either keep the boat on a mooring and dingy out to the boat, or trailer it 1 mile to the boat ramp.  Would prefer the mooring but concerned about trying to get from an 8' zodiac into the boat without going for a swim, so the boat needs to be very stable.  If trailer sailing the boat needs to be quick set-up at the ramp.  Something modern with set-bailing cockpit and assy on a sprit would be ideal, but this is just for afternoon daysailing so performance not the priority.  Suggestions?

Johnson 18?

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The Johnson 18 and the Raider are the two best suggestions I can think of, unless you want to go bigger and have the ability to take a crowd (Highlander, will need a battery & bilge pump & solar charger). The Buccaneer is a great boat but it's not self-bailing and the cockpit floor turns into an unholy mess if not stored covered.

Bigger, more money, self-bailing- a Viper or a VX-1

FB- Doug

 

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Lightning - old school, flat bottom and pretty stable.  Relaxed sit inside day cruising is definitely possible.  But a PITA if you somehow capsize.  There should be plenty around and available at reasonable prices.  Might even be an active fleet at or near your lake.  If its not for racing make a simple boom tent and leave it on the mooring.  Pretty quick to rig if going on/off trailer.  And as a bonus they are good looking - designed by one of the greats. 

 

  

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Definitely the Johnson 18. I could leave it in the water with no problem. I miss mine ! I don’t know if the Raider would stay upright at a mooring in a strong wind ????

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2 hours ago, europa said:

Unfortunately, I know that the Raider will not stay upright at a mooring. I’m impressed that you picked that up just from looking.

Yeah the Raider feels a bit tiddley when you're moving around in it, but when you lay it over, those hull "wings" add a lot of righting moment. As a test, I pulled the mast down so the masthead touched the water... past 90 degrees... and it popped back up.

Have you kept one on a mooring, and had it blow over? With any degree of chop plus the windage of the wing sticking up in the air, I can see that it might not pop back up.

FB- Doug

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The Vanguard Nomad or RS Venture look interesting.   Anybody have experience with these, either ramp launching or trailer sailing?

Also, this is for 2 adults and need to be able to mount a torqueedo, and roller curling jib would be nice.  I have a VX1 but the bolted down, 4.5' draft lifting keel would probably get destroyed on the rocks in this lake.

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I've had my Raider (Sport- carbon mast) on a mooring with over 50 mph winds. After the gusts had their way with her, she popped up and self bailed.  Teathered on about a 35 foot mooring line and 3' water depth

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The Nomad looks like a nice option.  Nice not having the traditional vang in the way.  Even found a pic of one with a trolling motor so you may be able to Torqueedo. I don't have any experience with the Nomad but remembered a thread about it being hard to recover from a capsize...  http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/67401-vanguard-nomad-righting/   Not a knock on the boat - just wanted to pass the info along.

See the source image

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I would also recommend a Flying Scot. Although I don't recommend doing this, I have climbed from my kayak into the Scot and back out successfully. 

I don't really don't agree with your statement that Tampa is a cold Northern lake environment though. 

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@BobSled@1 we have a brand new RS Venture being demoed in Michigan right now. After that it will probably work it's way back to Illinois. Not sure where your "Northern Lake" is but we could probably get you a ride as we have dealers throughout the great lakes.

Shoot me a note if you're interested Todd@RSSailing.com 

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21 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yeah the Raider feels a bit tiddley when you're moving around in it, but when you lay it over, those hull "wings" add a lot of righting moment. As a test, I pulled the mast down so the masthead touched the water... past 90 degrees... and it popped back up.

Have you kept one on a mooring, and had it blow over? With any degree of chop plus the windage of the wing sticking up in the air, I can see that it might not pop back up.

FB- Doug

Yes, mine did flip at a mooring. This was on Lake Champlain,  between an island and mainland, not exposed to the broad lake.

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I should add to this discussion that after selling the Raider, I have decided to build a 15 1/2 foot dinghy called an Argie 15, designed by Dudley Dix. More sedate, but more stable, so probably more appropriate at age 74. Incidentally, both Dudley and I have Lotus Europe’s.

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1 minute ago, europa said:

I should add to this discussion that after selling the Raider, I have decided to build a 15 1/2 foot dinghy called an Argie 15, designed by Dudley Dix. More sedate, but more stable, so probably more appropriate at age 74. Incidentally, both Dudley and I have Lotus Europe’s.

Thanks for the info. I had some experience with the Raider's reserve stability but did not feel like that was any guarantee

 btw I've ridden in a Lotus ;)

FB- Doug

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54 minutes ago, europa said:

I should add to this discussion that after selling the Raider, I have decided to build a 15 1/2 foot dinghy called an Argie 15, designed by Dudley Dix. More sedate, but more stable, so probably more appropriate at age 74. Incidentally, both Dudley and I have Lotus Europe’s.

Sorry for the misspelling, should be Lotus Europa’s

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On 7/30/2020 at 12:08 PM, BobSled@1 said:

By cold northern lake I mean Maine, so a dry boat with low capsize potential for sailing with inexperienced crew, and sailing through the cool fall weather.

Rhodes 19

cat boat

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On 7/29/2020 at 9:03 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Yeah the Raider feels a bit tiddley when you're moving around in it, but when you lay it over, those hull "wings" add a lot of righting moment. As a test, I pulled the mast down so the masthead touched the water... past 90 degrees... and it popped back up.

Have you kept one on a mooring, and had it blow over? With any degree of chop plus the windage of the wing sticking up in the air, I can see that it might not pop back up.

FB- Doug

FWIW, I turtled mine my first time out. Easy enough to right, but it can go over. Last time out, with the boat perpendicular to the end of a floating dock, the onshore wind got under the far side and laid the boat on its beam ends with the mast on the dock behind me. Took a bit of effort to get her back on her bottom.

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Bobsled@1, if you pass through the Boston area on your way up there you are welcome to try out my Flying Scot. Only in the next few weeks though, as I will probably sell it at the end of the Summer to get ready to move next year.

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Bobsled, we went to quite a bit of trouble and thought to make the Nomad an good fit for your requirements.  We tried to incorporate the sophistication of racing sailboats into the recreational daysailer category. In particular it was our belief that “performance” features like properly sized and shaped foils, light masts and rigging, tunable sails and additional down wind sail area ( in the form of an asymmetrical spinnaker) all added capability to the boat.

I sailed the Nomad several hundred hours during development and never felt the slightest bit insecure or at risk, so it was a surprise that customers tipped them over.  The only way I ever stuck one in the drink was deliberately when we realized that it was almost impossible to right the boat with the flotation as originally designed. We solved it, but any big stable centerboarder is going to be a challenge to right if you tip it over. Simply stated, the stability you desire when right side up is your enemy when upside down.  In the peversity of the planet, boats are often more stable upside down, and so harder to right if they turn turtle.

 If you are going to sail in remote places in off season, you should have a plan and practice it enough in warm weather so you don’t have to make it up in an emergency.  The key is getting someone on the centerboard as soon as possible, preferably by going over the high side as the mast hits the water. Your crew should know this and how to bail out in the correct direction if things go wrong.  Like all things, when you know what to do, you can do more things safely.

Nomad has a light Sheldon rig, which can be de powered nicely.  So you can tune for conditions like a racing dinghy by raking back pulling on Cunningham and bending the mast.  the mainsheet and compression vang keep the cockpit clear.  The boat sails well bare headed, so rolling up the jib is a very fast way of shortening sail.  I sailed happily upwind in 20+ knots with my 10 year old as crew, but I am very experienced at sailing small quick boats, and am regulated as being reasonably good at it. 

All that being said, it’s been 10 years since the  last Nomad was built.  Vanguard is history, there is no professional service or support and if you buy one, you are on your own.

SHC

 

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On 7/29/2020 at 7:37 AM, BobSled@1 said:

Need a centerboard boat for a cold northern lake.  Can either keep the boat on a mooring and dingy out to the boat, or trailer it 1 mile to the boat ramp.  Would prefer the mooring but concerned about trying to get from an 8' zodiac into the boat without going for a swim, so the boat needs to be very stable.  If trailer sailing the boat needs to be quick set-up at the ramp.  Something modern with set-bailing cockpit and assy on a sprit would be ideal, but this is just for afternoon daysailing so performance not the priority.  Suggestions?

I have a JY15 for sale for $1250. 5'8" beam + 300lb Hull = Super stable and modern-ish daysailer/club racer.

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4 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Didn't you buy a K1? Have you done a report yet?

Yep- I want to sail it in salt water first, and things are conspiring against that- it will happen.....oh yes......it will happen...

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2 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Excuse me but looks like a slow-assed mini 12 Meter slogging through the troughs doing its best to break hull speed.

It will stay upright on a buoy though....and it has a dangly pole- that has to mean something, even to you!  And before you get all riled up and get on my case about that, what the fuck do you mean by mini 12 meter?
 

 

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18 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

More of a keeler and centerboard

Needs to live on a buoy.  Horses for paddocks...

here’s a YouTube of a race in challenging conditions- flying 15’s and K1’s-  there’s a K1 knockdown, but’s a keelboat knockdown, so that’s worth something to the white haired set who still want to sail something interesting-  some young guys kicking some butt too, on behalf of the class...

 

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9 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

Nice video thanks for sharing  The Flying 15 looks ton of fun.  The K1 much more modern looking, but I'm still surprised how tippy they seem with a keel bulb compared to the 15.  Suppose one more crew is more righting moment than lead on the bottom.

Thanks, mesmerizing video.  Couple more hands helps on the fifteens.  The lead really helps the motion during gnarly tacks.  The K1 designer, Paul H. Has his own K1 that he races.  He’s designed for RS too.  

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12 hours ago, Amati said:

Needs to live on a buoy.  Horses for paddocks...

here’s a YouTube of a race in challenging conditions- flying 15’s and K1’s-  there’s a K1 knockdown, but’s a keelboat knockdown, so that’s worth something to the white haired set who still want to sail something interesting-  some young guys kicking some butt too, on behalf of the class...

 

great vid, that's one narrow river though! it makes the small lake I sail on look like a ocean

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

great vid, that's one narrow river though! it makes the small lake I sail on look like a ocean

I kind of lost track of it, but isn’t there a thread kicking around here about ‘what dinghy for what water’?

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On 8/11/2020 at 2:43 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

great vid, that's one narrow river though! it makes the small lake I sail on look like a ocean

That's not a River it's a lake, quite an average size for the UK...lol.

It's Broxbourne Sailing Club, where I learnt to sail back in the early 70's. Four kids sent out in boats called Torch's. I remember when we tacked you passed the tiller to the kid sitting opposite you. 

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15 hours ago, Martin T said:

That's not a River it's a lake, quite an average size for the UK...lol.

It's Broxbourne Sailing Club, where I learnt to sail back in the early 70's. Four kids sent out in boats called Torch's. I remember when we tacked you passed the tiller to the kid sitting opposite you. 

My wife’s cousin and I did that on Amati a couple of times.  Nice not having to get up and move.  

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