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Sail-World's "Americas Cup Rialto"


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8 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

There are some knowledgeable here that disagree with you @Stingray~.  They are suggesting it is better in many ways.
I wish I could include myself in those but I'm just an observer.

It makes little difference since it is what it is, but the challenges being addressed with this new rig are enormous and were - arguably, according to several of the designers who spoke to Shirley R - avoidable had they run with the much-better solid wings. 
 

The boats weren’t out in the 70kt gust that hit Auckland. RG (who expressed shock when the new AC Class came out) is exaggerating the issue, to now advertise and promote the new design. While battery-powered canting keels may trickle-down some day, it’s very hard to imagine the complexity of these twin skin mains ever being adopted before more-efficient and more-simple hard wings instead. 

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He reads the posts on here and I think some of them are a bit disrespectful - the guy puts in an incredible number of hours to bring us images, information and opinions. You don't have to agree w

With all due respect (even though little is being shown towards Richard), get off your arses then and produce something better.

RG in action on Saturday morning

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About that freak gust, did it result in a container being blown off a truck, leading to a closure of the Bay Bridge’s two center lanes? Thought I read that. 
 

From memory, ETNZ’s B1 was in a video of theirs crossing that bridge one night - is there an easy detour if need-be? 

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I have been very focused on this twin skinned soft sail and I have observed a general amazement at it's performance.  There seems to be agreement that it is better than first thought.  Going from a consensus of maybe 60-80% as good as the AC35 wings, to now 80% to better so it will be interesting to see these machines racing in anger.  I hope that they will be more equal than AC35 where one team never really showed all it's tricks, and this time they will be more equal and have to all leave it all on the course?

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

It fits your narrative, but not as extreme as you imply.  Both boats were off the water when it happen and AM kept their sail up when hit with a smaller squall a few days earlier.   So far, the ability to drop the sails only helps in allowing them to tow them around at a greater speed.

It allows the boats to be towed, not just faster, but bow first. The race areas are perhaps up to 5 miles out, not just in a pond or inlet like the past two cycles. You don't want to be slipping a boat in backwards for hours, as happened lastcycle in the point to OR one day.

The challenge of lifting the wings in gusty conditions was huge. See the video of team Ben in the UK.

The soft sails don't disintegrate into a flapping mess when they hit the water.

Ain't my narrative cuz, it's observable facts.

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6 hours ago, Kiwing said:

There are some knowledgeable here that disagree with you @Stingray~.  They are suggesting it is better in many ways.
I wish I could include myself in those but I'm just an observer.

Time will tell or, as they say time wounds all heels!

Gotta say I come down on the side of the softsail preference.  I doubted at first but I've come around.

Little doubt softsails do not rate as highly as hard wings for pure performance. But they are bloody impressive lifting and driving today's much heavier single foil boats with their weighted appendages.  The boats fly in breezes around 6-7 knots and the rigs have proven robust in high speed foil crashes. 
Plus they lose little or no speed tacking and gybing.

To cling to a preference for hard wings is to ignore the future. 

 

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8 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

About that freak gust, did it result in a container being blown off a truck, leading to a closure of the Bay Bridge’s two center lanes? Thought I read that. 
 

From memory, ETNZ’s B1 was in a video of theirs crossing that bridge one night - is there an easy detour if need-be? 

Truck was blown over, taking out one of the steel support beams.  Good thread over at crew.org.nz

http://crew.org.nz/forum/index.php?/topic/18307-cold-front-today/

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11 hours ago, Kiwing said:

I have been very focused on this twin skinned soft sail and I have observed a general amazement at it's performance.  There seems to be agreement that it is better than first thought.  Going from a consensus of maybe 60-80% as good as the AC35 wings, to now 80% to better so it will be interesting to see these machines racing in anger.  I hope that they will be more equal than AC35 where one team never really showed all it's tricks, and this time they will be more equal and have to all leave it all on the course?

You'll have to change your handle to kisoft...

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10 minutes ago, barfy said:

You'll have to change your handle to kisoft...

Yes I was pretty impressed by that AC35 wing, and it delivered with all Glen's finesse, inverted top and flutter, no look tack etc.
But this wing comes with a lot of trickle down as well.

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On 9/21/2020 at 11:17 PM, Stingray~ said:

it’s very hard to imagine the complexity of these twin skin mains ever being adopted before more-efficient and more-simple hard wings instead. 

I disagree. I think hard wings are almost impossible to trickle down for all the reasons stated. Dual wings may not trickle down much. But I could easily see them coming down into a variety of yachts because reefing them and raising/lowering them without outside assistance are both practicable- whether it be the trans-ocean monsters or eventually the top end 30-50 foot yachts that are used all around world. I can also seem them coming into the extreme short handed boats I have sailed - dual skin mains doesn't some too difficult compared to water ballast and tilting keels.

Not immediately, but in time

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10 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I disagree. I think hard wings are almost impossible to trickle down for all the reasons stated. Dual wings may not trickle down much. But I could easily see them coming down into a variety of yachts because reefing them and raising/lowering them without outside assistance are both practicable- whether it be the trans-ocean monsters or eventually the top end 30-50 foot yachts that are used all around world. I can also seem them coming into the extreme short handed boats I have sailed - dual skin mains doesn't some too difficult compared to water ballast and tilting keels.

Not immediately, but in time

I reluctantly agree; was not a fan of the concept but do feel that this is translatable into more pedestrian boats.  Specifically the gains in batten technology, luff cars, hydraulic controls and just the knowledge of how to design around two independent surfaces will eventually help many areas of sail design and sailing, obviously especially in twin skin sails.  I'm still bitter about an experience with a twin skin setup that was 3 times the work, twice the weight and about 3/4 of the performance... 

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5 hours ago, fish7yu said:

America's Cup Rialto: Oct 3 - A nice 'boring' day for Emirates Team NZ

by Richard Gladwell Sail-World NZ 4 Oct 12:54 NZDT4 October 2020

America's Cup Rialto: Oct 3 - A nice 'boring' day for Emirates Team NZ

"once the Prada Cup gets underway, and the Challengers are able to sail against each other - but as Defender, Emirates Team New Zealand can only sail alone"

Sorry, not up to speed here... but why can't the Defender participate in pre-Cup series, when the US did in AC35?

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Because the Prada Cup winner becomes the Challenger. This is talking about Challenger Selection.

OK, thanks.   What was the series before the Challenger series in AC35 when the US competed?

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

OK, thanks.   What was the series before the Challenger series in AC35 when the US competed?

An abomination of the DoG.

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On 10/4/2020 at 1:05 PM, MaxHugen said:

OK, thanks.   What was the series before the Challenger series in AC35 when the US competed?

A circus series that might have been intended to drum up viewer interest and money, and/or give Defender more racing experience against the potential challenger, and/or get Defender points to carry into the Cup match. 

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10 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

A circus series that might have been intended to drum up viewer interest and money, and/or give Defender more racing experience against the potential challenger, and/or get Defender points to carry into the Cup match. 

Correct. And it was not a knockout series, that came later. 

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10 hours ago, barfy said:

It was a cheater"let's try a get an edge by taking a point into the match" series.

And ETNZ let them have that edge because they did not want to show their hand early.  Learnt from AC34.

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On 9/22/2020 at 9:01 AM, Stingray~ said:

I remember DZ, with the largest wing of any kind ever built in world history, surviving a gale off the coast of San Diego. RG’s home-boy argument for the soft wing being a good idea for that big-winds reason is not too persuasive. 
 

I love this AC75 boat concept but, as several designers have said, things would have been even better had it been done with slotted, solid wings. 

Oracle had a hell of a night in Valencia when strong winds came up in the middle of the night and it was tethered in an enclosed areas with the wingsail up.

The wingsail was dropped for the AC75 because ; when capsized/nosedived they suffer severe damage which could not be easily fixed. There are a nightmare to launch in fresh winds can only be towed out of the marina  in certain conditions - otherwise they have to sail. The power that was claimed from a wingsail was supposed to be double that of a  double skinned mainsail, yet the AC75, AC50 and AC72 all have similar top end speeds circa 50kts. Plus the mainsail can be lowered at sea for toing. the wingsail can't. You don't have to tack an AC75 into a harbour as was a 20minute required rigmarole in Bermuda . There are technical reasons in favour of a hard wingsail but they don't stack up on the water.

 

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27 minutes ago, robberzdog said:

I love this AC75 boat concept but, as several designers have said, things would have been even better had it been done with slotted, solid wings. 

Assuming ETNZ's Defence is successful and/or the AC75 Class is retained for AC37, a solid wing could be a natural Rule progression (although rig weight could be an issue for current hull designs). On the other hand, unless the AC75 Class can smash through the foil cavitation wall, would more speed be to any advantage?

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Actually I think this twin skin is superior to the wing over all.  We will see when the dust settles and Glen starts a sails business and the round the world boats start choosing sails (notice not wings?)

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16 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Assuming ETNZ's Defence is successful and/or the AC75 Class is retained for AC37, a solid wing could be a natural Rule progression (although rig weight could be an issue for current hull designs). On the other hand, unless the AC75 Class can smash through the foil cavitation wall, would more speed be to any advantage?

There will be plenty of VMG gains to be had as opposed to pure speed. 

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27 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

There are so many advantages to solid wings, loads being near the top, that there’s an excellent chance that an AC75 V2 will advance back up to that. 

There is no point as the AC75's are hitting 50kts now with a double skin sail, a hard wing may be slightly better in a straight line, but they need heavy air and lighter air wings, getting in and out of the boat and then getting the whole the whole deal into the water is very fraught - as Luna Rossa found in 2013 when they smacked a wing into one of the siolos in Auckland .

 You also need three wings - one bottom and two tops to be able to sail in the same wind range as he AC75

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9 minutes ago, robberzdog said:

There is no point as the AC75's are hitting 50kts now with a double skin sail, a hard wing may be slightly better in a straight line, but they need heavy air and lighter air wings, getting in and out of the boat and then getting the whole the whole deal into the water is very fraught - as Luna Rossa found in 2013 when they smacked a wing into one of the siolos in Auckland .

 You also need three wings - one bottom and two tops to be able to sail in the same wind range as he AC75

Yes, solid wings have issues, and it was actually ETNZ that smacked theirs into a building during a step or unstep.

But the loads on the rig are so much less than on these rigs, the slotted wings so much more efficient too, that it’d be my choice for an AC75 V2 Class. Wings rock! 
 

The design is on a smaller scale for good reasons but the SGP AC50F Class going with modular wings strikes me as brilliant and I bet the AC36 Teams would have been better off with that too, even at the AC72 scale. Wings were not too big a problem even on heavy-air SF Bay. 

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^ you are clueless as usual. Recent team interviews say there is very little difference, that's before the last six months of refinement. After all the rebuttals all you have is"wings rock"..

Like the 3 mil

Cash strapped etnz

Design advantage

App

Slower boat last cycle.

Don't know where you developed your obsessive drum beat, but ffs stop cycling through the list. Come up with some new material or htfr.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Wings are better, for all kinds of reasons - cost included. 

No matter to me, the twin-skin rigs add a lot of new interest for everyone - bone-headed a design decision as it may have been. 

C'mon!  Are you telling us that wing build, management and repair is cheaper than twin-skin?

And when things get hairy, what then?

With a wing, after ETNZ's little oopsie they'd still still be retrieving wing fragments from wind-swept Tamaki Strait.

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2 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

C'mon!  Are you telling us that wing build, management and repair is cheaper than twin-skin?

And when things get hairy, what then?

With a wing, after ETNZ's little oopsie they'd still still be retrieving wing fragments from wind-swept Tamaki Strait.

He'll be along shortly with a spreadsheet to prove it

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On 10/9/2020 at 2:04 PM, Stingray~ said:

Yes, solid wings have issues, and it was actually ETNZ that smacked theirs into a building during a step or unstep.

 

Luna Rossa was the major hit, ETNZ did a much smaller one. With only two AC72's sailing in Auckland at the time - that is a 100% success rate. And both in a windstrength that was suitable for sailing, albeit it a little gusty.

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Then there was the great vidy of sir Ben recovering first the wing and boat, then getting the wing off and flapping it around.almost went thru his base pre 35.

Soon spinbit will be back knocking on about the "lost" 3mill when he runs out of steam with the wing thing. So predictable these days. You all got to stop quoting the fucking troll.

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On 10/10/2020 at 1:46 PM, Stingray~ said:

Wings are better, for all kinds of reasons - cost included. 
 

No matter to me, the twin-skin rigs add a lot of new interest for everyone - bone-headed a design decision as it may have been. 

Costs? Wings require far more people to launch than a mast.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Designers from all 3 Challengers have expressed that the AC75 Class would have been better off with solid, slotted wings. 

Is that really what they’ve said? They have said that the hard wings used in Bermuda were and are more efficient. That’s a given. But the sailors have also said there isn’t that much difference between the hard wings and the soft wings now. The one advantage that the soft wing has is the ability to get it up and down easily and quickly. Something that wasn’t possible on the AC50 or 72. No side slipping back to dock as we saw in Bermuda. 

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On 10/10/2020 at 1:46 PM, Stingray~ said:

No matter to me, the twin-skin rigs add a lot of new interest for everyone - bone-headed a design decision as it may have been. 

Classic trolling..

No matter..bit of fun

But bone headed design in the opinion of the chief bleating troll.

Get onto your next spin cycle..let's see..wings, design, slowest boat..

Reckon your back around to uncommon light air in bda...gotta database somewhere?

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Interesting: "One possible helmsman alternate is Nathan Outteridge (AUS), now resident in Auckland"

One of the few ways he could enter the country would be to be affiliated with an AC team. Unless he's taken up a career in film production?

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1 hour ago, P Flados said:

Sail GP is active in New Zealand.  Nate is active in Sail GP.    

True. Core gets a lot more $$$  than a super yacht has to bring in to get entry and NO is their "test pilot"

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On 10/16/2020 at 6:18 AM, Ex-yachtie said:

Interesting: "One possible helmsman alternate is Nathan Outteridge (AUS), now resident in Auckland"

One of the few ways he could enter the country would be to be affiliated with an AC team. Unless he's taken up a career in film production?

He's shooting a porno in Ponce-on-bee with @Priscilla

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1 hour ago, Varan said:

Here's another one about light wind performance, zeros versus j1s, etc.

Sorry, partied a bit too hard to summarize for y'all. Maybe next time.

Gladwell quoted "minimum wind strength of 6.5kts than the upper 23kt limit" in the article.

I thought it was 6-24 knots? Has it been changed?

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22 hours ago, uflux said:

Britt Ward made a comment yesterday about the fact we’ve seen AM heading out alone when conditions are strong and suggested it may be due to the confidence they’ve gained from so many sail days. So it’s impressive that ETNZ, with a brand new boat, went out yesterday too.

This was a hard day for the crews, particularly the Kiwis putting in a nine hour day on the water in quite extreme conditions.”

 

 

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From that article

"But on the basis of what was seen on Monday, currently there are no standout performers, and f that remains the same come next March, the Cup will be decided by who has the best sailors rather than the best boffins."

Which I have been saying for a while

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

From that article

"But on the basis of what was seen on Monday, currently there are no standout performers, and f that remains the same come next March, the Cup will be decided by who has the best sailors rather than the best boffins."

Which I have been saying for a while

Also from that article:

"But whether both sailing at race pace, is theirs to know and others to guess."

It's called a "bob each way".

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4 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

From that article

"But on the basis of what was seen on Monday, currently there are no standout performers, and f that remains the same come next March, the Cup will be decided by who has the best sailors rather than the best boffins."

Which I have been saying for a while

I was going to point to that comment by RG too, you beat me to it and yes I agree with it too. To some extent, because for example if the boffins gave you a boat you are good at tacking with, then you are more likely to make that extra tack to go shift- or pressure-hunting. 

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I think the reason ETNZ are persisting with the CZ is they are really struggling in the light winds to get on the foils with a Jib.  Therefore they have to use the big sail to get up, but now need to learn how to sail that sail fast on foils.  The Jib is quite a bit quicker when on foils in the light stuff.

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Yeah I dunno, I think they're probably just hitting the corners of the C0 to see it's limits. Wouldn't surprise me a ton if no one really uses them. Put a .5mm wall thickness bow sprit on and a tinsel bobstay and put the weight into oil. 

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2 hours ago, fish7yu said:

America's Cup Rialto: December 8 - Jousting in AC75's is not for the faint-hearted

by Richard Gladwell, Sail-World NZ 8 Dec December 2020

America's Cup Rialto: December 8 - Jousting in AC75's is not for the faint-hearted

 

21-12-11-yysw302587.jpg

Nice to see all of the boats out and getting a little competition.  

I would assume some sandbagging going on from all of the teams.  

UK sandbagged so much that they "faked" a breakdown and just went home. 

Patriot used the smaller mainsail.  

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On 12/3/2020 at 2:29 PM, trt131 said:

I think the reason ETNZ are persisting with the CZ is they are really struggling in the light winds to get on the foils with a Jib.

We've seen plenty of footage of them get up in the light stuff with a jib, as well as manoeuvering well in little breeze. These boats are so powerful and the control is now so adept, they look easier to control than the cats - way more forgiving. At the practice stage in Bermuda, teams were still having flight issues, which carried through to the challenger regatta. France and the UK never consistently achieved dry laps - ever.

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On 9/22/2020 at 9:01 AM, Stingray~ said:

I remember DZ, with the largest wing of any kind ever built in world history, surviving a gale off the coast of San Diego. RG’s home-boy argument for the soft wing being a good idea for that big-winds reason is not too persuasive. 
 

I love this AC75 boat concept but, as several designers have said, things would have been even better had it been done with slotted, solid wings. 

I won't comment on whether or not it is better with soft or hard wings, but certainly the soft wings seem to be a shit tonne easier to pop in and out and are a lot more robust.

I wouldn't want ANY team to risk being knocked out of the cup cos they fucked their wing the same way ETNZ did in the elimination round against BAR in the last cup.

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29 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

We've seen plenty of footage of them get up in the light stuff with a jib, as well as manoeuvering well in little breeze. These boats are so powerful and the control is now so adept, they look easier to control than the cats - way more forgiving. At the practice stage in Bermuda, teams were still having flight issues, which carried through to the challenger regatta. France and the UK never consistently achieved dry laps - ever.

Considering BAR managed to take a win off NZ they can’t have been that bad.. 

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