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Sngle handed head sail arrangement


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I have a 9600 lbs, S2 9.1. I want to do the Bermuda 1-2 next year. It seems that at more than 4.5 tons the S2 is a little more tender than I expected. I did the 2
bridges fiasco last weekend in the Chesapeake. The S2 rounded up 3-4 times in 15 knots of breeze close hauled with full main and 2/3 rolled up #1. I know I should
have reefed the main, but single handed "round the buoy" race. it didn't seem worth it. I don't know how Andrew Evans does it with a 2 ton Olson 30, but he has
MUCH more experience single handing than I do.

My choices for head sails are:
    1)Get a 4 or 5 ounce genoa on furling head stay and a 7.5 ounce #2 (with hanks) to go on a temporary dyneema stay that I can shorten (reef) to #3. 
I'll be using the the #1 close hauled with less than 8-10  knots and up to 15-18 reach. 
    2)Get a 7 ounce genoa that I can furl as much as I need.
 
Questions are:
    1) Is a #2 that is 6 to 12 inches behind a rolled up #1 really a more efficient sail than a 7 ounce #1 rolled up half way or even 2/3rd?

I have to say, I have always been a navigator and routing guy. My skipper (father) for 50 years was a great helmsman and knew enough about sails and trimming them, that I never needed be concerned with that aspect. But he is gone, and I need to learn this now.

I really love this forum, you all have been a great help.

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6 hours ago, rmgeis said:

I don't know how Andrew Evans does it

Learn how to work the main sheet to twist off the top of the mainsail.  The Figaro skippers rarely (some say never) reef their mainsail, even in 50 knots of wind so I've been told.  The key is that they allow the top of the main to twist off.  So keep the traveler up, but ease the sheet to allow the top to fall off.  This is a very powerful way to sail, because by heading down a bit you have full sail, and heading up a bit you have 1/2 sail.  So keep your main sheet in hand and ease it the instant you feel a pull.  It was blowing 20 last night and I was doing this, even with my reefed main.

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6 hours ago, rmgeis said:

7 ounce #1 rolled up half way or even 2/3rd

You will hate sailing like that, it won't point and off the wind it will be too baggy and will still over power in the gusts. You need flatter sails when it gets windy, twist them off to spill a bit if marginal.

You really need a 3 -4 size jib for windy days, Reefing the main after that will deal with pretty much anything, if your main is a bit baggy fix that too.

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51 minutes ago, Foolish said:

So keep the traveler up, but ease the sheet to allow the top to fall off. 

I was easing the sheet, perhaps not enough, would raising the boom help (more topping lift, less vang)? I also must reiterate, I should have reefed the mail. These "round the buoy" races are not for me, give me 635 NM between start and finish.

And Foolish, thanks for your book, I refer to it often.

 

37 minutes ago, BOI Guy said:

You will hate sailing like that, it won't point and off the wind it will be too baggy and will still over power in the gusts. You need flatter sails when it gets windy, twist them off to spill a bit if marginal.

You really need a 3 -4 size jib for windy days, Reefing the main after that will deal with pretty much anything, if your main is a bit baggy fix that too.

You are saying I need the dyneema stay. Won't the rolled up #1 be a problem? I really don't want running back stays, so I have to go masthead. I can move the tack back a couple feet, but that means adding a bulkhead below. 

Also is there any problem with putting reef points in a #2 to get to the #3 and #4?

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I haven't sailed with a solent style rig so cant comment there, I think they make sense for longer distance sailing without going to expense of a cutter rig. Not sure about removable stay either.

Have seen reef points in a #2 to make a #3 on a race boat, should be way better than furling.

Changing your sail on the furler from a large to small to suit the expectations on the day is best performance wise, its a pain in the arse short handed. Hanked on sails do start to make sense pretty quick if you only got one stay up front.

I think for your set up looking into the removable stay idea for a heavy jib would be worth investigating, you need to find someone who has done and get their input.

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Rolling a genoa up more than 10-15% leaves you sailing with a potato sack for a sail. Leach & foot get very tight, draft increases, sail area moves way up the foil - all of which slow you down a lot. Even with a furler, if you're racing (esp upwind) you need to change the headsail to the right size for the day. And sailplan balance is very important also - with almost no jib and a full main that combo has a LOT of weather helm. Do NOT be afraid to reef the main -practice until you and the equipment can do it quickly/efficiently.

The Figaro & other single handed designs are built with very neutral sail plan balances, to make it easier for the autopilots to drive. They also have new, hi tec, sails designed to twist off & flatten.Almost certainly, yours' do not.

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My boat has an inner forestay setup and a RF jib as well. Back when the RF genoa was my racing headsail (have now shifted to a "J1.5" with hanks and a reef point), I wouldn't roller-reef the sail going upwind for the aforementioned shape issues. The inner forestay with an 85% jib was a much better solution. I put a reef point on that one, too.

 

One caution is that you'll need to get some serious tension on the inner forestay to go upwind with a jib set from there. After some trial and error, I settled on a soft inner made of high tech 12 strand and rigged a 4:1 purchase at the bottom which I led aft to a clutch and a winch--easy to get the right tension like this. You'll need to ensure it terminates someplace with some structure. 

 

Experiment with mainsail reefs as well. I found that the single reef had dubious utility when I didn't have much weight on the rail, but when the "maybe it's time to reef" sense kicks in, going straight to the double added half a knot and made the boat much easier to handle. 

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22 hours ago, Foolish said:

Learn how to work the main sheet to twist off the top of the mainsail.  The Figaro skippers rarely (some say never) reef their mainsail, even in 50 knots of wind so I've been told.  The key is that they allow the top of the main to twist off.  So keep the traveler up, but ease the sheet to allow the top to fall off.  This is a very powerful way to sail, because by heading down a bit you have full sail, and heading up a bit you have 1/2 sail.  So keep your main sheet in hand and ease it the instant you feel a pull.  It was blowing 20 last night and I was doing this, even with my reefed main.

You need to be afford a few mainsails though. Figaro sailors don't really have that problem. 

 

I have Genoa, medium and heavy jib and change them in spite of furling system. It works but it is a pain shorthanded and a nightmare solo although a GOOD autopilot helps. Next time I'll buy new headsails I'll go for hanks. Simple, it works and you kan easy reef your headsail

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Furled sails have horrible shape, and don't work, they are just practical to store.

I would take a furling medium #1 and a  #2 on hanks on an removable inner stay.

For short-handed offshore racing I use a good laminate light/medium #1 on hanks and a strong dacron reefable #2, works well and avoid too many dance moves on the foredeck

 

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You a racing, right?  So you only furl headsails when hoisting a downwind sail. Never for "reefing." You never try to go to windward with a furled second sail. That is a lazy cruiser thing.

For shorthanded I'd get the lightest practical (easiest to handle) #1 genoa available. Plan on lashing it to the foredeck. Maybe in a sausage. Use hanks.

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I am going to put a dyneema stay aft of the fore stay with the 4 to 1 purchase.  I think that the easiest way is to put an angle iron (stainless steel) hooked underneath the cleats in the bow. Then have the dyneema stay and the clew hooked to that. Then have hanks and reef  put into the #2  or #3.  I also need to put another reef into the main (must be 55% according to Bermuda 1-2 rules). 

So:     1) Has anybody done this with the angle iron?
          2) Which size dyneema should I use?
          3) How many pounds of pressure can I expect?
          4) What kind of square foot ratio's should I shoot for between main and reefed genoa?

Forepeak.jpg

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Not very strong - there are only 4 5/16" (or 1/4"?) bolts attaching the cleats. For that span, the 'angle iron' has to be rather large, quite a tripping hazard, would take some serious fab work to get enuff metal under the center of the cleat. Much better would be attaching to the bulkhead at the aft end of the anchor locker. Carefully inspect this for attachment to hull & thickness of panel. With good planning, tackle could be under deck in locker. Somewhere "fuzzybaxter" has pics of this setup on his Pogo.

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On 8/9/2020 at 8:32 AM, El Boracho said:

Use hanks.

I removed the roller-furler on our GS 40 and switched both our #1 and #3 over to hanks.  Specifically for solo / short-handed work.  We keep the two headsails lashed to the lifelines on the bow.  When there is a headsail change I'm without a headsail for a couple minutes but the safety of releasing the halyard and knowing the sail will be retrievable is worth it.

It feels like the boat sails much better.  I can control the shape of the sails for a wider set of wind speeds.

J

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S2 9.1 , won the Lake Ontario 300 a couple years in a row, in some horrible conditions. Its more like an inland sea than a lake sometimes. #1,#3 and some sort of #4/5 blade, two big reefs in the main. No staysail arrangement. Roller ruler taken off as its a liability shorthanded for a sail change in miserable conditions if your racing. 

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Good evening,

If you do change over to hanks, rig up a downhaul on your headsail halyard.

Tie a light line to the jib halyard snapshackle. The line passes through a small block next to the tack fitting and is led aft to the cockpit and a small cleat.

 When you hoist the headsail the line snakes up the forestay along the luff of the sail. When you have to drop the sail you throw off the halyard and pull down on the downhaul line. Then cleat off both halyard and downhaul. It snugs the headsail luff down onto the foredeck and keeps the sail out of trouble till you can make your way forward. It also keeps tension on the halyard to prevent it from riding up the forestay and snagging in the rigging.

Have fun!

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+1 on hanks but the halyard downhaul is good in theory but not that useful and another line to deal with. Generally you will have a working jib that  suits the wind range in your area, if youre at the top end of that what you can do is have a second clew and tack put in and reef it. This is a pretty easy mod that saves a change, but you'll need a second set of sheets rigged but this is a very simple way to change gear especially if conditions are expected to change during the race.

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16 hours ago, longy said:

If you use a downhaul, use small dyneema & capture the line in every hank. Otherwise it's blowing about trying to tangle on hanks or anything else within reach

Never tried that with mine.  I have a 3/16" polyester braid line with a bronze spring hook and snap it over the headstay above the second from top hank.  It runs aft through the stanchion mounted leads formerly used by the roller furling to a cleat on the outside of the coaming.  I wrap it around a secondary winch when raising or lowering the headsail to keep a little tension on it and help control it.  After getting the sail up and luff tensioned, I just hand tension the down haul.  Have never had much of a problem with it tangling on anything.  If I have crew, I just don't use it.  Your method sounds more secure though.  Is the small dyneema line difficult to handle?  

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1 minute ago, crankcall said:

I really like the down haul on a halyard idea, but trying to capture it in each hank would be a colossal pain in the arse would'nt it ? 

I like the idea as well, but how about change of headsail? 

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we had to change headsails several times when I raced a small (3 crew) shark and just the 5 mins with somebody on the front pulling down one, unhanking and hanking on the new sail was painful , a downhaul line would really help. making somebody fit a string into those hanks would cause a pointy end mutiny

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Having raced shorthanded with hanks and furlers, a big advantage with the furler was you had the right sail size up all the time.  Plus you avoided those maddening times when you change headsails only for the wind to alter 10 minutes later.  Hmm. 'Lets see if it stays before we change back'.  No such problem with the furler.  Indeed I think we kept up better averages with a furler when compared to hanks.

An essential is a decent cut sail with a rope padded luff.

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My boat is longer than yours, and perhaps more stable, but same displacement, so same amount of power is needed to move it.

What I did:

I got rid of the furler. I've sailed tens of thousands of miles with those horrible things. They suck at the most inopportune times, and never ever save any energy on the part of the crew over hanks. It's harder to roll up than to hoist a sail with hanks. It's easier to drop with hanks than unroll safely with a furler. So first step, get rid of that garbage. You will be amazed at how much easier everything is, especially how much better the boat lies at anchor without tacking back and forth due to the forestay windage, and the reduction in rolling due to the reduction in weight aloft. A roller furled headsail is as much drag as having another mast!

To make the hanked on jib very easy to deal with, I went with a lapper -- the sail barely cannot hit the mast, and the clew is a the height of the boom for 1) visibility, 2) clearance over the lifelines, and 3) less sensitive jib sheet lead position. Since there is no overlap, I can use the weather (lazy) sheet as a baber hauler, so I only use outboard tracks. This gets rid of lots of holes in the deck, lots of toe stubs, and gets rid of specific barber haulers. No chafe now with high tech lines and sail cloth. The sail is made of carbon (Dimension Polyant light skin GPX) with dyneema hanks on a dyneema headstay. This means the sail is VERY light: about a third the weight of the previous headsails, works in light to very heavy air. The light weight of the sail combined with the low friction of the dyneema hanks on dyneema headstay makes hoisting very easy. To make dropping the sail easy, the sail is fully battened. Also, the lowest batten is perpendicular to the headstay to the clew, so dead downwind I don't need a whisker pole to sail wing and wing. And, since the sail is carbon so is both very light and does not stretch at all, the same sail works at all wind speeds.

I also went with a GPX fully battened main. Like the Figaro boats, there is never a need to reef, as again the sail does not stretch, so does not get full no matter how windy it gets. With little mast bend, I can get the sail as flat as a pancake, and I use twist to control power. The sail is on a Tide Marine Strong Track, which is light and very low friction without the problems of roller bearings. Low friction and light weight again means the sail is easy to hoist, drop, and fold by myself, no lazy jacks (a really big win!!). As with the jib, being fully battened the sail is well behaved even when the sheet is dumped.

While carbon sails cost twice as much as the cheapest stretchy dacron, it means I need exactly two sails, rather than a quiver of heavy, hard to handle sails.

My boat is a 4 sail boat: Main and jib from carbon, screecher (a well designed code zero), and A3. Jib close hauled in all conditions, screecher for reaching, A3 for running. Easy to choose the sail. Few sails, so spending on good ones is not astronomically expensive. Over 15 knots, its a two sail boat in all directions.

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Oh: The boat sails very well under either jib or main alone. Less weather helm jib alone, so that is the typical choice if its blowing hard.

And I leave the jib on the headstay permanently. I have a sail cover for the jib that holds it up off the deck, suspended by the lifelines.

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2 hours ago, crankcall said:

we had to change headsails several times when I raced a small (3 crew) shark and just the 5 mins with somebody on the front pulling down one, unhanking and hanking on the new sail was painful , a downhaul line would really help. making somebody fit a string into those hanks would cause a pointy end mutiny

This is a single handing technique. Once you're putting a body forward they can pull the sail down if needed.

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5 hours ago, crankcall said:

I really like the down haul on a halyard idea, but trying to capture it in each hank would be a colossal pain in the arse would'nt it ? 

Good evening,

I used the halyard downhaul system on my 9 meter Farrier trimaran which I sailed solo most of the time. I never bothered to capture the downhaul line inside the hanks.......too lazy. Once hoisted, I would just snug it nice and tight and slip it into a cam cleat on the cabin top.

If you want to do a sail change, drop the sail and apply tension to both downhaul and halyard. Then cleat both. Change sails as normal. 

The beauty of this system is that the dowhaul is attached to the halyard, so the halyard is held captive while you clip on the new sail. The halyard is kept right where you want it and it is under tension so it will not snag spreaders etc.

When you're done, transfer the halyard to the new sail. The downhaul keeps everything tight on deck until you get back to the winches to hoist the new sail.

Try it. You can rig it with gear you already have on board.......its for free. Chuck it if you don't like it.

Have fun.

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10 hours ago, trisail said:

Good evening,

I used the halyard downhaul system on my 9 meter Farrier trimaran which I sailed solo most of the time. I never bothered to capture the downhaul line inside the hanks.......too lazy. Once hoisted, I would just snug it nice and tight and slip it into a cam cleat on the cabin top.

If you want to do a sail change, drop the sail and apply tension to both downhaul and halyard. Then cleat both. Change sails as normal. 

The beauty of this system is that the dowhaul is attached to the halyard, so the halyard is held captive while you clip on the new sail. The halyard is kept right where you want it and it is under tension so it will not snag spreaders etc.

When you're done, transfer the halyard to the new sail. The downhaul keeps everything tight on deck until you get back to the winches to hoist the new sail.

Try it. You can rig it with gear you already have on board.......its for free. Chuck it if you don't like it.

Have fun.

This sounds better than snugging the downhaul around the hanks! I will definitely try it out 

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On 8/6/2020 at 8:11 AM, rmgeis said:

I have a 9600 lbs, S2 9.1. I want to do the Bermuda 1-2 next year. It seems that at more than 4.5 tons the S2 is a little more tender than I expected. I did the 2
bridges fiasco last weekend in the Chesapeake. The S2 rounded up 3-4 times in 15 knots of breeze close hauled with full main and 2/3 rolled up #1. I know I should
have reefed the main, but single handed "round the buoy" race. it didn't seem worth it. I don't know how Andrew Evans does it with a 2 ton Olson 30, but he has
MUCH more experience single handing than I do.

My choices for head sails are:
    1)Get a 4 or 5 ounce genoa on furling head stay and a 7.5 ounce #2 (with hanks) to go on a temporary dyneema stay that I can shorten (reef) to #3. 
I'll be using the the #1 close hauled with less than 8-10  knots and up to 15-18 reach. 
    2)Get a 7 ounce genoa that I can furl as much as I need.
 
Questions are:
    1) Is a #2 that is 6 to 12 inches behind a rolled up #1 really a more efficient sail than a 7 ounce #1 rolled up half way or even 2/3rd?

I have to say, I have always been a navigator and routing guy. My skipper (father) for 50 years was a great helmsman and knew enough about sails and trimming them, that I never needed be concerned with that aspect. But he is gone, and I need to learn this now.

I really love this forum, you all have been a great help.

Don’t know your boat 

 

Bermuda is a reaching race

Optimize your headsails for ocean reaching 

 

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On 8/13/2020 at 3:31 AM, carcrash said:

My boat is longer than yours, and perhaps more stable, but same displacement, so same amount of power is needed to move it.

What I did:

I got rid of the furler. I've sailed tens of thousands of miles with those horrible things. They suck at the most inopportune times, and never ever save any energy on the part of the crew over hanks. It's harder to roll up than to hoist a sail with hanks. It's easier to drop with hanks than unroll safely with a furler. So first step, get rid of that garbage. You will be amazed at how much easier everything is, especially how much better the boat lies at anchor without tacking back and forth due to the forestay windage, and the reduction in rolling due to the reduction in weight aloft. A roller furled headsail is as much drag as having another mast!

To make the hanked on jib very easy to deal with, I went with a lapper -- the sail barely cannot hit the mast, and the clew is a the height of the boom for 1) visibility, 2) clearance over the lifelines, and 3) less sensitive jib sheet lead position. Since there is no overlap, I can use the weather (lazy) sheet as a baber hauler, so I only use outboard tracks. This gets rid of lots of holes in the deck, lots of toe stubs, and gets rid of specific barber haulers. No chafe now with high tech lines and sail cloth. The sail is made of carbon (Dimension Polyant light skin GPX) with dyneema hanks on a dyneema headstay. This means the sail is VERY light: about a third the weight of the previous headsails, works in light to very heavy air. The light weight of the sail combined with the low friction of the dyneema hanks on dyneema headstay makes hoisting very easy. To make dropping the sail easy, the sail is fully battened. Also, the lowest batten is perpendicular to the headstay to the clew, so dead downwind I don't need a whisker pole to sail wing and wing. And, since the sail is carbon so is both very light and does not stretch at all, the same sail works at all wind speeds.

I also went with a GPX fully battened main. Like the Figaro boats, there is never a need to reef, as again the sail does not stretch, so does not get full no matter how windy it gets. With little mast bend, I can get the sail as flat as a pancake, and I use twist to control power. The sail is on a Tide Marine Strong Track, which is light and very low friction without the problems of roller bearings. Low friction and light weight again means the sail is easy to hoist, drop, and fold by myself, no lazy jacks (a really big win!!). As with the jib, being fully battened the sail is well behaved even when the sheet is dumped.

While carbon sails cost twice as much as the cheapest stretchy dacron, it means I need exactly two sails, rather than a quiver of heavy, hard to handle sails.

My boat is a 4 sail boat: Main and jib from carbon, screecher (a well designed code zero), and A3. Jib close hauled in all conditions, screecher for reaching, A3 for running. Easy to choose the sail. Few sails, so spending on good ones is not astronomically expensive. Over 15 knots, its a two sail boat in all directions.

Like your approach, one question..

If you want to leave the job hanked on, and store it it in a jib bag, how do you deal with the long diagonal batten?

 

 

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On 8/13/2020 at 3:31 AM, carcrash said:

My boat is longer than yours, and perhaps more stable, but same displacement, so same amount of power is needed to move it.

What I did:

...

My boat is a 4 sail boat: Main and jib from carbon, screecher (a well designed code zero), and A3. Jib close hauled in all conditions, screecher for reaching, A3 for running. Easy to choose the sail. Few sails, so spending on good ones is not astronomically expensive. Over 15 knots, its a two sail boat in all directions.

Photo(s)?

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12 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Like your approach, one question..

If you want to leave the job hanked on, and store it it in a jib bag, how do you deal with the long diagonal batten?

I don't remove any battens. It folds easily on the deck, I can easily lift the sail with one hand to get the cover underneath. Then fasten the typical sail cover twist connectors over the life lines.

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You can see the lazy sheet pulling the headsail clew inboard. No inboard track.

Clew batten is not clear in this pic. The clew end of the batten pocket is just above the clew. The forward end of the batten is just below the 3rd hank from the tack, a hank below the tell tail window.

The winch with the green sheet is the starboard main sheet. From the winch, the main sheet runs forward to a ring at the chainplates, to a ring at the boom gooseneck, aft along the boom to a ring at the aft end of boom and then down to the Colligo soft padeye just forward of the winch. No traveller! Boom position is controlled by coordinating the port and starboard main sheets. I have since moved the main sheet ends to the rail instead of the soft padeyes, as it is a more versatile lead and the sheet winches are plenty big even with a bit worse mechanical advantage compared to the inboard padeyes. Yes, I continue to remove deck hardware.

The winches are all the same: Harken Radial 46.2 STA. I had the winch bases turned by Mark Shutts Fabrication out of blanks of 5" diameter Delrin Acetal rod stock. He did an excellent surface finish that matches the finish of the winces very well.

IMG_6377.jpeg

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On 8/12/2020 at 8:32 AM, crankcall said:

I really like the down haul on a halyard idea, but trying to capture it in each hank would be a colossal pain in the arse would'nt it ? 

A buddy of mine ran his down haul from the head, down to the clew (snap shackled block so he could swap it onto a different sail), and back to the tack, through a turning block and back to the cockpit.  When he dropped the halyard and pulled on the down haul it gathered the whole sail up at the base of the stay.  That was back in the days of soft dacron.

You can reduce the time going bald headed by unhanking the bottom 6 feet of Hanks, loading the new sail, then dropping the old.

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My new plan is to fill this 640 cubic inches in the aft section of the anchor locker with Coosa composite panels, epoxied together and epoxied to the anchor locker bulkhead and deck with a chain plate in the middle. This will go from port to starboard side and up to the deck.  I think the whole assembly will weight about 25-30 pounds and be strong enough to hold the new dyneema stay.CropAnchorLocker.thumb.jpg.d06f2c0192271645033fbe16b91d0ed2.jpg

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I would also suggest as carcrash said. Go with hanks, dump (sell) the furler. I can confirm it's way easyer to handle the sail (hoist/drop).

And if you put a reef in the #2 it's job done. So you have a light #1 and a #2 for windy days, wich can be transformed into a #3-4 in 30sec.

Also don't use brass or plastic hanks, go with textile + velcro or maybe dynema hanks. So much easyer for handling with frozen hands. 

 

I did this conversion on my previous boat and was a big improvement in all aspects. Would never go back to furler.

 

 

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A little netting on the foredeck,  or interlaced string....and filling in the bow pulpit with some interlaced string helps keep lowered , roller furling headsails on the deck and out of the water.  For singlehanded day-racing, roller furling is still really nice.   For multi-day ocean crossings, yeah, hanks seem better.

However, the comments about trying to sail upwind with a deep-rolled-up #1 are spot-on. Just...No.

I think as you spend more time sailing solo, you'll realize that having the biggest sail up that you can handle is generally speaking a mistake. Maybe it's not a mistake if you only tack 4x a day, but it you're short-tacking up a coastline or something, getting that big 150 in will really wear you out. The advantage you get from having up more sail area disappears into the bungled up tacks you'll do.  Upshot, I don't have a class 155 on my S2 7.9.  My biggest headsail is 125% and I spend most of my time sailing with a working jib.  I can tack that pretty quickly in heavy-ish air. It's a workout, but I can do it.

That's one reason why having a big mainsail and a small-ish foretriangle is a good thing when you're sailing solo.

I also have a low-tech (read: cut down, old crosscut dacron) 60% headsail with a very high clew that goes on the roller furler for when it's blowing like snot.  It's got a luff tape, but behind the luff tape are grommets. So in theory I COULD hoist it on a separate dyneema  soft-stay.

I would strongly suggest that for day-races, you leave the #1 in the bag unless it's going to blow <8 knots all day,  and be thinking about getting a nice, fast working jib.

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This thread has sort of validated  choices I made when I bought my boat 4 years ago.  During prep for launching, I removed a perfectly functional furling system and foil, had hanks put on the 155 (the only upwind sail that came with the boat) and ordered a 110 that slab reefed to about 80%  I use a downhaul (am going to try going to the halyard snap shackle with it, that sounds like a great idea) when sailing alone, which is about 75% of the time.   Thanks for all the tips.

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On 8/6/2020 at 10:26 PM, TalonF4U said:

My boat has an inner forestay setup and a RF jib as well. Back when the RF genoa was my racing headsail (have now shifted to a "J1.5" with hanks and a reef point), I wouldn't roller-reef the sail going upwind for the aforementioned shape issues. The inner forestay with an 85% jib was a much better solution. I put a reef point on that one, too.

 

One caution is that you'll need to get some serious tension on the inner forestay to go upwind with a jib set from there. After some trial and error, I settled on a soft inner made of high tech 12 strand and rigged a 4:1 purchase at the bottom which I led aft to a clutch and a winch--easy to get the right tension like this. You'll need to ensure it terminates someplace with some structure. 

 

Experiment with mainsail reefs as well. I found that the single reef had dubious utility when I didn't have much weight on the rail, but when the "maybe it's time to reef" sense kicks in, going straight to the double added half a knot and made the boat much easier to handle. 

Finn sailors know well ;) the tale of John Christianson (sp?) who was on the small side for Finn sailing In bigger air, so he had a smaller sail made for Big Winds.  He killed upwind in a big air race with the new sail. Left the big guys in his wake, so to speak.  But, alas,  he got killed downwind.  But some of us do remember.....  (and hoary memory whispers “use the chicken chute”.)  (It’s kind of like “Use the 3 wood off the tee”. In golf.....).....

(But who listens to that little voice, when the bigger voice is saying “USE THE DRIVER, YOU FUCKING PUSSY”) 

That, and the first reef is not worth much...:) not to experienced yachtsman.....at least.......:P

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I have to say that in the point-to-point day races I do on SF Bay, a roller furler is very nice. Where it pays off bigtime is on spinnaker sets and douses.  You set up the gear before you get to the mark...round the mark..BAM the jib is ~Gone~...and you hoist.  That's way, way faster than a hanked sail where you have to pull it down and give it a quick 'n dirty tie-down to the toerail before you hoist.

But that's solo day-racing, where it's unlikely that I will change a headsail during the day unless I need to change UP.  I've learned through many instances of getting my butt hammered during headsail changes DOWN, that changing a headsail at all just gives miles away to the competition. Sometimes you have to do it. but I've learned to always err on the conservative side. It hurts to start a race in 7 knots of wind with the working jib up, but if you know that within an hour or two, it's going to be blowing 20, then that working jib is the way to go.

 

I singlehanded with a headfoil for a few years. I have to say that I can't recommend it, though  honestly, I only ever lost control of a sail overboard, twice..

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Shorthanded racing and cruising are different animals, plus its all about the boat setup. While for the  most part hanks are better (especially in the up to 35ft range) there is a lot to be said for a furler on a bigger boats with that also have a staysail. On really small boats sub 20 ft Ive used a furler since I have only one headsail so its either in or out, and thats a great solution. On bigger boats the sheer bulk of the sails gets awkward to handle, there is a limit to what you can practically manage so you need to be pretty open minded about what systems works best for you.

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1 hour ago, Alan H said:

That's way, way faster than a hanked sail where you have to pull it down and give it a quick 'n dirty tie-down to the toerail before you hoist.

you're doing it wrong

get the kite up, dump the jib halyard, go forward and collect the jib from the bow wave at your leisure

better than having the weight of the jib halfway up the rig, the foot 6 inches from the deck, and the lazy kite sheet rolled up into it

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A bit suprising that you take the jib down first. The jib keeps a bit of pressure away from the kite while it goes up. The jib up is also what keeps my botched set from going truly pear shaped when the kite decides to hourglass around the headstay. For this reason I run a tall, skinny staysail when running under spin offshore. What's the configuration or reason that drives you to douse the jib before setting?

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If I'm offshore and have time, I will probably drop the jib and hoist a spinnaker net before hoisting a spinnaker. Why?  'cause I was doing my SHTP when Ken Roper, "The General" got such an hellacious wrap that he couldn't undo it. He sailed the last 4-5 days of the race like this:

 

2012-07-18_1226_harrier.jpg

No thank you!

If I'm racing on SF Bay, solo...if it's really light, under 8 I'll probably hoist with the headsail up to help prevent wraps.  This of course assumes that I trust my autopilot enough to drive the boat with the spinnaker up for 5 minutes while I get the headsail down. In fact, I've been able to do that in lighter wind.   However, most of my spinnaker hoists around here happen in 12-18 knots of breeze and I've just learned that if I leave the headsail up, I'll be overpowered almost immediately.  You all can lecture me about how I'm doing it wrong, just hoist deeper downwind and yeah yeah it all makes sense. But I know how many times the shit has hit the fan doing that, and I know that for me...the headsail comes down before the spinnaker goes up, if I'm solo.

Why?

Because NOTHING is slower than a fuck-up. The ten boatlengths I'll gain by having the jib up when I hoist, will disappear, 7 times out of ten, in the massive tits-up mangled mess that will result if I do that. I might nail it, and get those ten boatlengths. Or I might not.  I've learned to play it safe.

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ha ha! I find it hilarious the common language we all share.  Any sailor knows that a fuck up is a highly technical yachting term, and we all know spinnaker fuck ups are the worst! That said I will often leave the working gib up if its fresh or its a no gybe leg to avoid wraps.   

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On 8/16/2020 at 5:43 AM, rmgeis said:

My new plan is to fill this 640 cubic inches in the aft section of the anchor locker with Coosa composite panels, epoxied together and epoxied to the anchor locker bulkhead and deck with a chain plate in the middle. This will go from port to starboard side and up to the deck.  I think the whole assembly will weight about 25-30 pounds and be strong enough to hold the new dyneema stay.CropAnchorLocker.thumb.jpg.d06f2c0192271645033fbe16b91d0ed2.jpg

HI Rmgeis,

This is what Longy was referring to, my inner forestay attaches to the the rear bulkhead on my anchor well. It's 25mm closed cell foam and as you can see there is no extra structural bulk added. Admittedly it's different types of foam throughout the boat depending upon if it is a load point or structural zone but it's just the bulkhead, there is no extra reinforcing on the other side.  

On the other side of the bulkhead anchoring the padeye are 40mm SS washers. I've had it up in 40 knots and no signs of any crushing or fatigue at all. This might give you an idea at least.

IMG_1812_zpsj5lwz6bp.thumb.JPG.945416c8f5bc674c09a009116ed8826b.JPG  

38263546_IMG_1814_zps7bid0tsl(1).thumb.JPG.ff7e5b49a1a880af284941e56cccc35c.JPG

IMG_1811_zpsa5jya8nm.thumb.JPG.34c9f09289ed0a407d7c7644131c5f9e.JPG

The blue line is the tensioner, the dark grey is the inner forestay strop. It has a knuckle that attaches to the dyneema forestay. The forestay is permanently attached up the top and when disconnected just ties off at the base of the mast.

The little grey dyneema loop is for the tack and anchors to the same padeye. 

Best of luck with whatever rig you decide! 

SB 

Edit: found a picture of the knuckle, it's permanently attached to the strop. 

  

10858322_zpsaaijctju.JPG.79fd5c42008d4ea453dd52602cbfc6db.JPG

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13 hours ago, Alan H said:

If I'm offshore and have time, I will probably drop the jib and hoist a spinnaker net before hoisting a spinnaker. Why?  'cause I was doing my SHTP when Ken Roper, "The General" got such an hellacious wrap that he couldn't undo it. He sailed the last 4-5 days of the race like this:

 

2012-07-18_1226_harrier.jpg

No thank you!

If I'm racing on SF Bay, solo...if it's really light, under 8 I'll probably hoist with the headsail up to help prevent wraps.  This of course assumes that I trust my autopilot enough to drive the boat with the spinnaker up for 5 minutes while I get the headsail down. In fact, I've been able to do that in lighter wind.   However, most of my spinnaker hoists around here happen in 12-18 knots of breeze and I've just learned that if I leave the headsail up, I'll be overpowered almost immediately.  You all can lecture me about how I'm doing it wrong, just hoist deeper downwind and yeah yeah it all makes sense. But I know how many times the shit has hit the fan doing that, and I know that for me...the headsail comes down before the spinnaker goes up, if I'm solo.

Why?

Because NOTHING is slower than a fuck-up. The ten boatlengths I'll gain by having the jib up when I hoist, will disappear, 7 times out of ten, in the massive tits-up mangled mess that will result if I do that. I might nail it, and get those ten boatlengths. Or I might not.  I've learned to play it safe.

But if you don’t have your spinnaker up are you even racing? 

& old mate above really needed to get up there & blow the knife or start cutting. 

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6 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

HI Rmgeis,

This is what Longy was referring to, my inner forestay attaches to the the rear bulkhead on my anchor well. It's 25mm closed cell foam and as you can see there is no extra structural bulk added. Admittedly it's different types of foam throughout the boat depending upon if it is a load point or structural zone but it's just the bulkhead, there is no extra reinforcing on the other side.  

On the other side of the bulkhead anchoring the padeye are 40mm SS washers. I've had it up in 40 knots and no signs of any crushing or fatigue at all. This might give you an idea at least.

IMG_1812_zpsj5lwz6bp.thumb.JPG.945416c8f5bc674c09a009116ed8826b.JPG  

38263546_IMG_1814_zps7bid0tsl(1).thumb.JPG.ff7e5b49a1a880af284941e56cccc35c.JPG

IMG_1811_zpsa5jya8nm.thumb.JPG.34c9f09289ed0a407d7c7644131c5f9e.JPG

The blue line is the tensioner, the dark grey is the inner forestay strop. It has a knuckle that attaches to the dyneema forestay. The forestay is permanently attached up the top and when disconnected just ties off at the base of the mast.

The little grey dyneema loop is for the tack and anchors to the same padeye. 

Best of luck with whatever rig you decide! 

SB 

Edit: found a picture of the knuckle, it's permanently attached to the strop. 

  

10858322_zpsaaijctju.JPG.79fd5c42008d4ea453dd52602cbfc6db.JPG

Nice looking setup.
Those lines would be a horrible brown & slime colour here within a year!

Do you tension the stay on a winch & then lock it off at that deck jammer?
Or does it need to stay on the winch permanently.

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25 minutes ago, MiddayGun said:

Nice looking setup.
Those lines would be a horrible brown & slime colour here within a year!

Do you tension the stay on a winch & then lock it off at that deck jammer?
Or does it need to stay on the winch permanently.

Hi Midday,

Yep, engage the lock, tension on the cabintop winch and it jams on the deck jammer. The thin blue line is the release line , it runs back to the cockpit with the tensioner, but not the lock. I figured you're on the foredeck anyway when setting up which is when you lock it, so one less line that needs to come back :).  

The staysail bag zips around the forestay, so you can leave it all next to the mast already attached and drag it forward when you need it, that way the foredeck is clear for tacking the headsail.

I tend to connect it all up before we start out though, then its just a case of going forrard to unzip the bag then hoist. You have to half furl the headsail when tacking to clear the inner forestay if you do it that way, so not as sexy and neat but good enough for cruising mode. .      

 

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2012-07-18_1226_harrier.jpg

Man that would suck.  From the picture it looks like he wrapped the kite around the headfoil along with the spin net and snuffer.  It would have been a shit fight, solo, by yourself up the mast with a knife, swinging in the ocean swell trying to cut that down safely.   Can't say I fault him for taking the safer route.  The pole is set - maybe he was able to fly another kite for those 4-5 days and it was taken down after his finish in Hawaii.

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Thanks for the photos. I think that what I am planning is more like what Bruno said "Overkill" which is fine with me. I had a friend who has naval architecture experience who consoled me to put in less. Hope to get it done this weekend, but Laura may ruin those plans. I'll post some photos when I'm finished

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3 hours ago, yoyo said:

2012-07-18_1226_harrier.jpg

Man that would suck.  From the picture it looks like he wrapped the kite around the headfoil along with the spin net and snuffer.  It would have been a shit fight, solo, by yourself up the mast with a knife, swinging in the ocean swell trying to cut that down safely.   Can't say I fault him for taking the safer route.  The pole is set - maybe he was able to fly another kite for those 4-5 days and it was taken down after his finish in Hawaii.

There comes a time when it's well and truly wrapped where you are left with 3 choices:

1. Hopes and prayers.  Go on ignoring it and act like everything is fine. 

2. Attack it.  Climb up there and cut it down.

3. Lean into it.  Do a bunch of 360's and execute a poor-man's top down furler.

It looks like our man may have gone with #3.

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Patience might be the key, sometimes. I wrapped a kite around the headstay. All of it. Tightly. Chose to motor back to the slip. Of course it unwrapped into a perfectly trimmed kite inside the marina. Hilarity ensued.

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3 hours ago, yoyo said:

rmgeis,

I am curious.  What's your plan for the mast mount for the inner forestay?

I was thinking that 3 feet from the top of the mast is the most I can go without running back stays.

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OK, so you have to understand that Ken was about 72 years old when that happened, and Harrier is a 31 foot boat.  I'm not so sure that having Ken climb the mast is such a great idea.     Harrier is a pretty fast boat, though.   I was about 150 miles behind him when that happened and he actually beat me in that year....not by much, but under main and I think a storm jib, he actually kept the boat going at 4 1/2 knots. I picked up about 30-35 miles a day on him, I'd busted my vang and hosed my autopilot,  but still.

Another SSS sailor got the Wrap From Hell on a SHTP. After a couple of days of trying to unwrap it, he taped together a 40 foot pole. Somehow he figured out how to stabilize it .  He strapped a flare to the end of the pole and set it off. Then, somehow he got the flare up near the top of the mess, and BURNED off the  top of the wrapped kite.

I'm not making this up, I swear.  Ask Bob J, sleddog, solosailor, or Ronnie Simpson.

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It's always a good idea to inspect your rig before an ocean crossing.   Here is a SHTP racer inspecting the rig with his helper twenty years back.  As she was the soulless type the race committee allowed the stow-away to race.   I'm not going to say "why" she sprang some leaks on her lower extremities but when she made an appearance in Halalei her legs were tied together at the waist to keep inflated.   I am certainly not making this up.

Still Crazy.jpeg

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On 8/9/2020 at 8:32 AM, El Boracho said:

You a racing, right?  So you only furl headsails when hoisting a downwind sail. Never for "reefing." You never try to go to windward with a furled second sail. That is a lazy cruiser thing.

For shorthanded I'd get the lightest practical (easiest to handle) #1 genoa available. Plan on lashing it to the foredeck. Maybe in a sausage. Use hanks.

Is an inner furled jib actually slower?  IIRR, Anything that slows the flow down ( I guess you could say blocks the flow) in the ‘slot’ forces more flow around to the low pressure side of the outer jib, so It seems to me the trick, if you’re going to use any furling, would be to use a flying sail for any of the outer jibs/assym’s, upwind or down, so you don’t have an outer furled banana screwing up the fast/low pressure side of a deployed inner jib when you don’t need it, no?  That, and flying sails are a lot easier to deal with in lighter air, at least IMHO.  We have a flying drifter (~ 160%, sheeted to the aft Genoa track) that works upwind and down, just by messing with luff tension.  

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1 hour ago, solosailor said:

It's always a good idea to inspect your rig before an ocean crossing.   Here is a SHTP racer inspecting the rig with his helper twenty years back.  As she was the soulless type the race committee allowed the stow-away to race.   I'm not going to say "why" she sprang some leaks on her lower extremities but when she made an appearance in Halalei her legs were tied together at the waist to keep inflated.   I am certainly not making this up.

Still Crazy.jpeg

Reminds me of a pilot who took guide dogs for the blind aboard his commercial airplane (I guess pilots used to to be required to do this?) out with him to do his preflight inspection so the pup could take a squirt.  Worked fine until he did it with his dark glasses on, and the blind passenger’s cane :lol: in one hand.  Not the leash hand.  Hilarity ensued. Apparently there was some ;) ‘acting’ involved....checking the tires was claimed to be especially amusing.  Tap tap

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@shaggybaxter Thanks for the info on the setup, I might be stealing it!
I really like the idea of using a dogbone to connect the stays & just leaving it out of sight in the anchor well when not used.
Did you find the stay being offset makes any real difference?

Also, what time of boat is she?

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1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

@shaggybaxter Thanks for the info on the setup, I might be stealing it!
I really like the idea of using a dogbone to connect the stays & just leaving it out of sight in the anchor well when not used.
Did you find the stay being offset makes any real difference?

Also, what time of boat is she?

G'day Midday,

The dogbone sits on the deck, (it can't pass through the collar) and no it doesn't get underfoot surprisingly. You tend to sit either forward or behind the deck jammers so you don't really notice it. When I want it all tidy I snub it up to the collar. 

Sorry, the previous pics are a bit misleading on perspective, the forestay is plumb on centreline. The anchor gear goes to starboard and the bowsprit stuff to port. The sprit angles in (so fully extended its on the centreline) which doesn't help with the perspective in the pics. Boat type she's a Pogo 12.50.

IMG_1768_zps32vnad4j.thumb.JPG.c0396fdc72eadf37ac2a169f287c4cc0.JPG

Edit: found a much better picture, here ya go. Ignore the yellow line tied to the strop, that's just a halyard that was banging on the mast and annoying me. 

Cheers!

SB

IMG_28901.thumb.jpg.c277a64ac99be415ee69f1bb8cf92075.jpg 

 

 

.      

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On 8/13/2020 at 11:30 AM, slug zitski said:

Don’t know your boat 

 

Bermuda is a reaching race

Optimize your headsails for ocean reaching 

 

EXCEPT when it isn't.   like 2017

 

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20 hours ago, sailordave said:

EXCEPT when it isn't.   like 2017

 

Then go to the bank , grab a huge wedge of cash  , call your local sailmaker and purchase a big stack of sails ..completely fill the entire interior of the boat with brand new sails 

If  the interior gets full,  stack even more sails on the rail 

get the good stuff

if your cash pile  goes  thin ... get some more cash 

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On 8/28/2020 at 4:52 PM, shaggybaxter said:

HI Rmgeis,

This is what Longy was referring to, my inner forestay attaches to the the rear bulkhead on my anchor well. It's 25mm closed cell foam and as you can see there is no extra structural bulk added. Admittedly it's different types of foam throughout the boat depending upon if it is a load point or structural zone but it's just the bulkhead, there is no extra reinforcing on the other side.  

On the other side of the bulkhead anchoring the padeye are 40mm SS washers. I've had it up in 40 knots and no signs of any crushing or fatigue at all. This might give you an idea at least.

IMG_1812_zpsj5lwz6bp.thumb.JPG.945416c8f5bc674c09a009116ed8826b.JPG  

38263546_IMG_1814_zps7bid0tsl(1).thumb.JPG.ff7e5b49a1a880af284941e56cccc35c.JPG

IMG_1811_zpsa5jya8nm.thumb.JPG.34c9f09289ed0a407d7c7644131c5f9e.JPG

The blue line is the tensioner, the dark grey is the inner forestay strop. It has a knuckle that attaches to the dyneema forestay. The forestay is permanently attached up the top and when disconnected just ties off at the base of the mast.

The little grey dyneema loop is for the tack and anchors to the same padeye. 

Best of luck with whatever rig you decide! 

SB 

Edit: found a picture of the knuckle, it's permanently attached to the strop. 

  

10858322_zpsaaijctju.JPG.79fd5c42008d4ea453dd52602cbfc6db.JPG

Cheers for that Shaggy. I’ve been wanting to change my SS setup on our 40 as it sits too high due to the above deck purchase system.  I’d like to have it all plugged in, tied back at the mast base to avoid the half furl to tack...but make it simple and easy to connect the stay up forward when needed.  
 

As you built new, did you have the discussion regarding how far toward the SS is set? Most of the C40’s have them much further aft... as ours is the cruising version and came with it in a similar position to yours I wondered...
 

also don’t sell!  You’ll regret it!!!

 

EDIT- just seen the more recent pics- your tack/stay point is much further aft...ours is only about 3-400mm aft of the forestay...

Edited by plugger
Seen more recent pictures
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On 8/31/2020 at 2:25 PM, plugger said:

Cheers for that Shaggy. I’ve been wanting to change my SS setup on our 40 as it sits too high due to the above deck purchase system.  I’d like to have it all plugged in, tied back at the mast base to avoid the half furl to tack...but make it simple and easy to connect the stay up forward when needed.  
 

As you built new, did you have the discussion regarding how far toward the SS is set? Most of the C40’s have them much further aft... as ours is the cruising version and came with it in a similar position to yours I wondered...
 

also don’t sell!  You’ll regret it!!!

 

EDIT- just seen the more recent pics- your tack/stay point is much further aft...ours is only about 3-400mm aft of the forestay...

G'day Plugger,

No, there wasn't any discussion on setting the inner forestay position, looking at it it kinda has to follow the rear bulkhead of the anchor well as there is nothing fore or aft of it to mount to. I probably shouldn't call it an anchor well as it's a spinnaker and anchor well. There is a half height wall dividing the two wells so you don't get your kite all manky from the chain and rode, but you couldn't mount the inner forestay off the dividing wall without putting the deck collar smack bang in the middle of the hatch.   

I'll measure the distance to the forestay for you, I can't remember off the top of my head, but yes it'd be more than a metre I think. 

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Anchor locker reinforced, chain plate installed. Still have to paint. I see there are 3 types of Dyneema , SK78, SK99, and DM20. So which one should I use, and what diameter? How far can I go down from the top of the mast can I go without running backstays? (Luff 35-38 feet).

Thanks for all of the replies, amazed at the size of this discussion.

DyneemaStay.thumb.jpg.cad553fa4b45e7ed13b498a70f3d797a.jpg
 

DyneemaStay.jpg

DyneemaStay.jpg

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Actually, I have to get the mast out soon. I only have two halyards, The sheave  for the third halyard is missing and the axle or all three sheaves seems to be welded to the mast. I am not sure how to attach the new stay to the mast, I was going to let the yard suggest the best way.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/12/2020 at 10:31 AM, carcrash said:

My boat is a 4 sail boat: Main and jib from carbon, screecher (a well designed code zero), and A3. Jib close hauled in all conditions, screecher for reaching, A3 for running. Easy to choose the sail. Few sails, so spending on good ones is not astronomically expensive. Over 15 knots, its a two sail boat in all directions.

Car Crash, what's your boat? We sail in similar conditions, currently using a RF #3 jib upwind and a sym kite downwind when we have enough leg distance to screw with it. Our boat's a B 40.7 and we can generally hold our own in >10 kts upwind but really lose ground off the wind until we can fly the kite. Above 10 Kts, tacking a #1 just beats us up too much. I hate to admit it but, at 74 years old, that kind of self abuse would discourage me from getting out often.

Shortly after getting her I rigged up a four part system with snap shackles and a cam fiddle block as a preventer. We now take the german mainsheet system off when short handed and use the preventer as our main sheet, attached to the boom end and traveler car. Our boat was designed with German main sheet system, a bit like yours but with blocks in place of rings. We find, with the full width traveler track forward of the wheel, it's just too hard to for the helmsman to trim the main using the winches when the jib or spin are being tended by the other crew. The four part main sheet tackle is a little under purchased when we get above 15 kts. but I can luff momentarily and get the desired tension on the leach.

We are still getting all this sorted out and I'm really getting some good ideas from this thread.

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traditional hank-on sails is hands-down the easiest, most simple, most effective solution for solo racing your boat in the ocean. I have had hank-on sails for both of my singlehanded Transpacs and for all of my solo ocean cruising. I absolutely would not recommend rigging a down haul line. Sounds cool in theory but would suck in reality and would impede with changes. You will likely end up with a genoa, a #2-3 type thing and a blade #4 all up front. You just un-hank a sail, move it about a meter or two aft and sail-tie it to the life lines or hand rail. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/29/2020 at 2:22 AM, ronnie_simpson said:

traditional hank-on sails is hands-down the easiest, most simple, most effective solution for solo racing your boat in the ocean. I have had hank-on sails for both of my singlehanded Transpacs and for all of my solo ocean cruising. I absolutely would not recommend rigging a down haul line. Sounds cool in theory but would suck in reality and would impede with changes. You will likely end up with a genoa, a #2-3 type thing and a blade #4 all up front. You just un-hank a sail, move it about a meter or two aft and sail-tie it to the life lines or hand rail. 

I am finding the carbon fully battened lapper to be much more effective than I thought. On a broad reach from Catalina to LA Light, I nearly caught a well sailed Bene 367 with good sails and spinnaker, just using the main and lapper. The 367 left Catalina about 20 minutes before us, chute up. 0-10 knots of breeze over 20 nautical miles. We were closing on him in the Island wind, he gained on us when it almost shut off during the transition, and then we closed steadily once we were both in the same westerly breeze, passing them just inside the light.

You really don't  need that many headsails on a ULDB, if your headsails keeps their shape. Carbon gives that stable shape, and light weight so it flies well in ghosting conditions. Stable shape even as the wind increases dramatically, lift-to-drag is maintained. Stretchy sails get full, so drag increases: the direction of that total lift vector moves from nice forward driving force to a lot of heeling force.

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On 9/28/2020 at 5:09 PM, kinardly said:

Car Crash, what's your boat? We sail in similar conditions, currently using a RF #3 jib upwind and a sym kite downwind when we have enough leg distance to screw with it. Our boat's a B 40.7 and we can generally hold our own in >10 kts upwind but really lose ground off the wind until we can fly the kite. Above 10 Kts, tacking a #1 just beats us up too much. I hate to admit it but, at 74 years old, that kind of self abuse would discourage me from getting out often.

Shortly after getting her I rigged up a four part system with snap shackles and a cam fiddle block as a preventer. We now take the german mainsheet system off when short handed and use the preventer as our main sheet, attached to the boom end and traveler car. Our boat was designed with German main sheet system, a bit like yours but with blocks in place of rings. We find, with the full width traveler track forward of the wheel, it's just too hard to for the helmsman to trim the main using the winches when the jib or spin are being tended by the other crew. The four part main sheet tackle is a little under purchased when we get above 15 kts. but I can luff momentarily and get the desired tension on the leach.

We are still getting all this sorted out and I'm really getting some good ideas from this thread.

Mine is an Olson 40 with an Andrew designed 7' deep bulb keel. So about the same draft as original, but much lower center of gravity. Similar righting moment as several people on the rail, with no people on the rail.

My jib or lapper is fully battened, with the lower batten going from the clew, perpendicular to the headstay. This means I can wing it out when nearly DDW without needing a whisker pole. It works better than I expected. But usually we tack downwind as that is more fun and safer (no gybe risk), even if not always faster.

 

IMG_1783.jpg

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On 10/7/2020 at 6:14 PM, El Boracho said:

How is such a thing, with that batten, lowered?

I guess there must be some slack in it so that when the clew hits the deck you can lower it further.
 

My number 3 has battens, but not full length, just in the leech.
My furler has them as well, made out of some collapsible material that springs into shape when the sail is unfurled.

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