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Dumb question about galley countertops


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7 hours ago, LeoV said:

Euh, your old HPL extends under the fiddles, normally. See the problem removing it ?

Yes, I now see all sorts of problems with my original half ass plan. I suppose that is the reason people normally pay people who know what they are doing. Fortunately, I have SA and time!

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You won't get the edge of the laminate to sit nicely against the fiddles.  No matter how good your template is.  The rabbeted edge of the fiddle hides this as well as helps to keep water out.

You can drive a new screw into the wood plug and when it hits the head of the screw below, it will usually spin the plug and pull it out.  Pre drilling is up to you.  I've found it isn't necessary.  If the screw just strips the plug, you have good place to start picking, or possibly get a screwdriver in there and unscrew the existing one which will also push it out. 

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1 minute ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

You won't get the edge of the laminate to sit nicely against the fiddles.  No matter how good your template is.  The rabbeted edge of the fiddle hides this as well as helps to keep water out.

You can drive a new screw into the wood plug and when it hits the head of the screw below, it will usually spin the plug and pull it out.  Pre drilling is up to you.  I've found it isn't necessary.  If the screw just strips the plug, you have good place to start picking, or possibly get a screwdriver in there and unscrew the existing one which will also push it out. 

Well now I have a fun project for this afternoon. It sounds as if it will require plenty of beverages and some reggae music.

Speaking of which, one of the best concerts I ever attended was Third World opening for Shaggy in Antigua after Sailing Week. The smoke was so thick you couldn't see the stage.

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Worst case, if the edges of the plug hole get chipped you can just drill for the next size plug.

Be careful not to split back the surface of the fiddle around the holes - that can happen when you try to pull it with the screw.

Better to pick away the top of the plug before doing it to keep the surface good.

It's tedious but just pretend you're a dentist.

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Worst case, if the edges of the plug hole get chipped you can just drill for the next size plug.

SJB, I'm trying to remember, what's the type of drill bit for drilling teak for bungs?

I found this at Fisheries but it's not what mine look like. Unless SFW has a drill press he'll not get a clean hole for the next size up bung.

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I use this kind of boring bit. It is insanely sharp. In the very rare case an oversize bung is needed simply tap in a fresh bung and then redrill. I have a bung cutting bits, too, so cheap bungs can be made. Failing that, plastic wood filler can work as a drill guide. But also a guide can be made by boring a hole in a scrap of ply, holding that firmly where the oversize hole is desired. These bits don’t wander once started.

 

5343EE05-58A0-40DE-86AE-43C8611DF574.jpeg

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Well now I have a fun project for this afternoon. It sounds as if it will require plenty of beverages and some reggae music.

Speaking of which, one of the best concerts I ever attended was Third World opening for Shaggy in Antigua after Sailing Week. The smoke was so thick you couldn't see the stage.

Use one of these bits to drill out the club. If you can find a cheap one use it or just resharpen when finished

Make it fast an easy to get them off 

FAIWDB30.jpg?1536755376

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5 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Yes, I now see all sorts of problems with my original half ass plan. I suppose that is the reason people normally pay people who know what they are doing. Fortunately, I have SA and time!

Better a half ass plan and research, then having no plan...
To remove bungs use a chisel in the right size. Cross pattern. Glue in new ones with varnish only.

I have made fiddles from stock, but mostly we ordered ones. So even if they break there is a solution.
Quick search for US;
http://www.buckwoodcraft.com/teak-edge-molding-inside-corner-whitecap-afi-60836-clone.html

Good luck.

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38 minutes ago, hobot said:

SJB, I'm trying to remember, what's the type of drill bit for drilling teak for bungs?

I found this at Fisheries but it's not what mine look like. Unless SFW has a drill press he'll not get a clean hole for the next size up bung.

Drill out the existing plug out with the next size bit or do what el boracho wrote 

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Not the pro way to do it.

"edit* if you saw one of these bung drill bits you'd see there is a bit of a shank before the cutting surface that centers the bit so a clean cut is done and the bung has a nice clean fit.

No need for fillers to make your finished product look "better".

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Criminy, by now you'd think I'd know how to find a picture of something I'm looking for...

41WVOEohPhL._SL500_AA300_.jpgthree wood bung drill bits and on the right the drill bit for making wood bungs.

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7 minutes ago, hobot said:

Not the pro way to do it.

"edit* if you saw one of these bung drill bits you'd see there is a bit of a shank before the cutting surface that centers the bit so a clean cut is done and the bung has a nice clean fit.

No need for fillers to make your finished product look "better".

That is for removing the existing plug  so you can get the screw out not drilling a new piece of molding to accept the plug. 

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VWAP, see that drill bit tip on EB's posted picture? What happens when in bottoms out of the fastener that the bungs covering up?

Doing Commando work is fine if you're skilled enough but using the proper tools the first time makes for less drama down the road. 

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Use spur point  bit. Do not try drilling the screw out with the bit. stop drilling when you get to the screw.  Generally the spurpoint  will hit the screw first, then stop. Remove excess wood then remove the screw.  Spur point bits are not difficult to resharpen when necessary. Just buy tapered wood plugs to refill the hole and clean up with a chisel 

You are correct the first few could be difficult though you could do some test samples if you have the time 

 

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Hobbs - I think you've got it but wait... there's more

These kind of drill & counter-bore bits can be used without the drill bit to simply do a counterbore or to clean one up. The drill bit is simply held in with a small set screw.

image.png.5bf09034881333f8e664a940f9b4f8a0.png

These are plug cutters for making your own plugs. Be sure to get the counter-bores and plug cutters from the same manufacturer - tiny differences can be extremely frustrating like loose plugs or oversize plugs that won't fit without the big hammer.

image.png.ba952a37ee2cdee831997f6e4b27fb8f.png

 

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Thank you all for your help. I found these bits while poking around in Dad''s woodshop for a few minutes as well as a tray of router bits. So I figure i will load them all up in the car along with a pair of calipers, an awl, a dental pick, a good set of small sharp chisels, a little mallet, a bunch of Gatorade and a Bluetooth speaker with instrumental music and head over to the boat. I will start with one plug in an unobtrusive place so when I fuck it up the damage is minimal.

Wish me luck! Or better yet give me advice in the next hour before I do anything stupid and irreversible.

Spur Point1.JPG

Forstner1.JPG

Make Plugs1.JPG

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The plastic box next to the propeller, those are cutting tools for cutting new bungs. Deep inside the cutting tool it will leave a rounded Edge so the bung easily inserts into the hole.

Dip the bungs in varnish prior to gently tapping them in place.

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8 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

So much for that plan. 

I'm sounding like some expert but I'm really not, I just have done a ton of interior work over the years....

Removing bungs, use a small (#1?) slotted screwdriver, look at the grain on the bung and center the the driver against it, lightly tap it into bung and dig as much of it out as you safely can use a pick to clean out the rest as best you can, the fastener will most likely be a Philips screw, carefully unscrew it and you should have a clean hole left, pick out any small bits left.

the goal is to not damage the bung hole in the fid so you'll have a straight hole leftover for the new bung to have a tight fit.

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47 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

So much for that plan. 

It is not difficult. Just don't force the bit. Let the cutter do the work.  You will know when the brad point has just touched the screw. After the first one you should have a general idea of how deep to go and when you have gone deep enough. For most it is an easy simple task to remove plugs this way. 

This guy uses a forester bit though I would use a bradpoint which less prone to damage and   easier to sharpen 

http://svmatilda.blogspot.com/2016/05/removing-and-reinstalling-wood-plugs.html

 

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1 hour ago, hobot said:

I'm sounding like some expert but I'm really not, I just have done a ton of interior work over the years....

Removing bungs, use a small (#1?) slotted screwdriver, look at the grain on the bung and center the the driver against it, lightly tap it into bung and dig as much of it out as you safely can use a pick to clean out the rest as best you can, the fastener will most likely be a Philips screw, carefully unscrew it and you should have a clean hole left, pick out any small bits left.

the goal is to not damage the bung hole in the fid so you'll have a straight hole leftover for the new bung to have a tight fit.

Doing it that way it would probably go easier with less damage to the surrounding area if sand the varnish or whatever off first. 

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On 8/16/2020 at 3:16 AM, woodpecker said:

Find a woodworking shop in your area, most have lots of remnants that they will sell you cheap or even give you for free. Waste is a huge problem in the p-lam top business.

When I was that local shop I would sell most large(1m2) pieces for $20. If it was a small pIece it would be free. As long as it doesn’t waste much of your time and the guy isn’t a jackass I didn’t mind. If they needed it cut into a pile of pieces it switched to regular hourly rate.  
 

If the old stuff is still bonded you can go over it. We rough it up with 80 grit and bond directly to it. You need some way to deal with the edges. 

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3 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

 

Make Plugs1.JPG

I don't know, maybe that top 'bit' in the picture will do the job!

Might want to wear safety goggles tho...

 

 

 

I've noticed that 90% of all my solo DIY projects that I've 'meticulously planned' in my head, only take 25 - 33% of the total effort and time that I had planned for... leaving more time to do it right!

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Top bit is for cutting a bunch of new plugs out of flat stock on a drill press, it's open so it ejects the plug as you go on to the next one. Doesn't chamfer the plug though.

They're also good for stripping off a wood deck with stuck fasteners, cuts around the screw head leaving it behind to removed by vice grips later. Although it will kill the tool for plug cutting probably.

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6 minutes ago, See Level said:

Top bit is for cutting a bunch of new plugs out of flat stock on a drill press, it's open so it ejects the plug as you go on to the next one. Doesn't chamfer the plug though.

They're also good for stripping off a wood deck with stuck fasteners, cuts around the screw head leaving it behind to removed by vice grips later. Although it will kill the tool for plug cutting probably.

What's the prop bit for?

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15 minutes ago, Liquid said:

What's the prop bit for?

Goes through water like a knife through warm butter.

Actually, we used the feathering prop when we used to cruise the boat a lot. The folding Martec is slippier of course, but the boat doesn't back up particularly well unless you know its idiosyncrasies. Now it is a decorative paperweight on the workbench.

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Thank you very much to everyone on this thread who has helped so far. I appreciate your advice more than I can say. Next time you are in the neighborhood Mai Tai's are on me.

Anyway, here is how it went: I started with the countertop in the head. It has more sides and angles than the one in the galley, but it is also less visible in case I totally fuck it up, and I figured this was a learning process. Photo #1.

Then I got together some essential tools. Photo #2.  

I started with a 1/16" pilot hole in the middle of the least visible plus, then 1/8", then 1/4". Then I used a very narrow awl to gently trim out the wood following your collective instructions until the whole screw head was visible. Photo #3.

I unscrewed the bronze screw which came out cleanly. That first one took a while, but by the 14th they only took a minute each since I started with the 1/4" bit. Photo #4.

Ultimately all 14 bronze screw came out perfectly cleanly leaving behind perfect plug holes. 

IMG_1252.JPG

Tools.JPG

Trimmed 1.JPG

Fascia2.JPG

After4 JPG.JPG

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Good work.

Use that to get the cuts for the back & sides but leave the front edges a bit long to trim with a router.

And now is the time to paint those vertical surfaces.

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Good work.

Use that to get the cuts for the back & sides but leave the front edges a bit long to trim with a router.

And now is the time to paint those vertical surfaces.

Oh yes, absolutely. First I was going to remove the towel rail, plumbing fixtures etc. from the bulkheads, remove the head door, then hit everything with an 80 grit orbital sander then use LifeCalk to fill all the old screw holes and imperfections then sand and tape off all the varnish. Then apply a couple of coats of Pettit EzCabinCoat (the mildew resistant one). 

Meanwhile, at home sand down to bare wood and refinish the fiddles with satin varnish.

Use the template to make the new countertop as you describe. Then put the fiddles back on, put the plugs back in (dipped in satin varnish), tape the paint and countertops and put on more coats of satin varnish.

Assuming this all works out in the head and V-berth (I am doing them together) then I will do exactly the same thing in the cabin and galley and quarterberths.

Finally put in new teak and holly floorboards.

Then put the new rig in and race the hell out of it with new 3di sails.

Question:

How should I prepare the plywood countertops for the new Formica? They won't be visible obviously so aesthetics don't matter. Just rough them up with 40 grit and use new contact cement?

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

 

Then I got together some essential tools. Photo #2.  

 

 

Tools.JPG

 

 

 

The tool top right? 

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Oh yes, absolutely. First I was going to remove the towel rail, plumbing fixtures etc. from the bulkheads, remove the head door, then hit everything with an 80 grit orbital sander then use LifeCalk to fill all the old screw holes and imperfections then sand and tape off all the varnish. Then apply a couple of coats of Pettit EzCabinCoat (the mildew resistant one). 

Meanwhile, at home sand down to bare wood and refinish the fiddles with satin varnish.

Use the template to make the new countertop as you describe. Then put the fiddles back on, put the plugs back in (dipped in satin varnish), tape the paint and countertops and put on more coats of satin varnish.

Assuming this all works out in the head and V-berth (I am doing them together) then I will do exactly the same thing in the cabin and galley and quarterberths.

Finally put in new teak and holly floorboards.

Then put the new rig in and race the hell out of it with new 3di sails.

Question:

How should I prepare the plywood countertops for the new Formica? They won't be visible obviously so aesthetics don't matter. Just rough them up with 40 grit and use new contact cement?

Good plan. Scrape as much of the old contact cement as possible before sanding - it's like sanding rubber and will quickly clog even coarse disks

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Good plan. Scrape as much of the old contact cement as possible before sanding - it's like sanding rubber and will quickly clog even coarse disks

Have to be a little careful scraping plywood as amateurs can too easily go through the top ply. Is there a stripping chemical that would work?

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7 hours ago, See Level said:

Top bit is for cutting a bunch of new plugs out of flat stock on a drill press, it's open so it ejects the plug as you go on to the next one. Doesn't chamfer the plug though.

They're also good for stripping off a wood deck with stuck fasteners, cuts around the screw head leaving it behind to removed by vice grips later. Although it will kill the tool for plug cutting probably.

The pro method is to use a Fuller plug cutter and drill a row of them in a piece about 2” wide. Then you rip it in the table saw. You get a pile of perfect plugs with the rounded ends. The other option is to do the same and leave the plugs in the piece. When you need them you can pop them out with a chisel or screwdriver. 

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1 hour ago, yoyo said:

If you don't have the stock to cut plugs from you can buy packages of pre cut plugs.  Teak or mahogany plugs are usually available at marine stores or woodworkers supply stores. 

I do have nice, aged mahogany stock but I prefer to keep it for other projects. Thank you!

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1 minute ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Since we are discussing plugs, once they are tapped in (dipped in satin varnish) do you make them flush with a chisel?

I prefer a flexible flat saw like the one shown here.  Chisel can work just have to be careful not to make a gouge in the surrounding wood.

 

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One way to Rome; fine toothed handsaw and sandpaper, or on flat surfaces a router.
Installing the fiddle, use varnish as sealer between formica and fiddle. Tape of area not covered by fiddle, heavy coat of varnish on bottom fiddle, and install. We even used varnish on the screws.

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43 minutes ago, LeoV said:

We used bandsaw, less looking where the F did they go...

We put a strip of masking tape over the plugs, then ran them through the saw and all the plugs were stuck to the tape in a neat row, like a dispenser. No chasing them around the floor.

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I do have nice, aged mahogany stock but I prefer to keep it for other projects. Thank you!

That's why you keep all the scrap & offcuts from expensive wood.

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Since we are discussing plugs, once they are tapped in (dipped in satin varnish) do you make them flush with a chisel?

You make your first cut near the top of the plug so you can determine which way the grain runs - very aggravating to slice a plug only to find the grain runs down - always below the surface of the piece.

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20 hours ago, El Boracho said:

I use this kind of boring bit. It is insanely sharp. In the very rare case an oversize bung is needed simply tap in a fresh bung and then redrill. I have a bung cutting bits, too, so cheap bungs can be made. Failing that, plastic wood filler can work as a drill guide. But also a guide can be made by boring a hole in a scrap of ply, holding that firmly where the oversize hole is desired. These bits don’t wander once started.

 

5343EE05-58A0-40DE-86AE-43C8611DF574.jpeg

Yah 

 

make a drill guide from a clean  scrap of  10 or 12 mm plywood 

place the guide over the bung and drill out with a Forstner  bit

if the screw heads are full of glue... fit a screwdriver bit into s soldering iron insert into the screw head and vaporize the glue in the slot and under the shoulders 

E05A2C3B-F4AE-403A-87BD-1927B03E1979.jpeg

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I have a Fein tool so I will use that on an experimental plug so make sure it works.  The Fein tool is amazing. I had no idea such a thing existed until about a month ago when I was remodeling a bathroom and needed to recess a medicine cabinet and a buddy showed one to me. Wow, now that I have one it is amazing how necessary it is.

It reminds me of a couple of months ago when I bought a gasoline powered pressure washer to clean off a large area of bricks at the house. It did that, of course, but once I had it I realized that almost everything on Earth needs to be pressure washed. Wrought iron, obviously. Windows and siding go without saying. Outdoor furniture? You bet! The Labrador? Why not? Smelly people at the bus stop? Pressure washer with Old Spice to the rescue! People walking through the neighborhood without masks? Put bleach in the pressure washer. Drone overhead? That is what the red tip is for.

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4 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I have a Fein tool so I will use that on an experimental plug so make sure it works.  The Fein tool is amazing. 

Like all power tools they make everything go faster. Including fucking shite up. 
 

The plug cutting hand saws people mentioned have the teeth set on one side. You can put them on a flat surface and they will not damage it. 
 

I’ve had a multi tool for 30 years. Even with my neurosurgeon like accuracy, there is no way I would attack a bung with it.

The three brands of countersink/plug cutters I recommend are Fuller, Snappy & Veritas. Fuller is the original with useless tapered drill bits. Snappy is affordable. Veritas has these trick fully tapered plugs. Almost invisible glue lines. 

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5 hours ago, xyzzy said:

I've heard bent chisels are good, https://hardwickandsons.com/products/buck-bros-1-1-2-bent-paring-chisel but haven't tried that myself.  I used a flexible flush cut saw like in the video and then finished with sandpaper.

 

With a straight chisel start off with the bevel down 

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I have a Fein tool so I will use that on an experimental plug so make sure it works.  The Fein tool is amazing. I had no idea such a thing existed until about a month ago when I was remodeling a bathroom and needed to recess a medicine cabinet and a buddy showed one to me. Wow, now that I have one it is amazing how necessary it is.

I had good luck cutting plugs with my Fein using a flush cut (Japanese pull saw style) wood blade. In my case it was 100+ plugs in teak battens against the hull. Because they are are bent and not perfectly flat, I cut them slightly less than flush then sanded the last bit.

For just a few plugs with good access, a chisel works well too.

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My little go-to is a small Japanese hand saw. A plug takes 30 seconds. It would take longer to fire up the Fein.  And I have one and used it last weekend, am a big fan.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

My little go-to is a small Japanese hand saw. A plug takes 30 seconds. It would take longer to fire up the Fein.  And I have one and used it last weekend, am a big fan.

I have one of those. Teeth cut the opposite direction. Very thin blade. I will use that. Thanks!

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Another good method is to use a laminate trimmer. The 1/2” mortising bits used for door hinges cut plugs perfectly. It’s good for doing teak decks.
 

I learned to use a chisel really well back in the day. Unfortunately it ruins your day when one of the plugs snaps below the surface. Teak will do it because if it’s squirrelly grain. Most people  use the handsaws if they own one. 

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Chisel works well with new holes and bungs, but new bungs in old holes can have a less snug fit.
Experienced hands make a cutting movement with a bloody sharp chisel, not a hammer blow with a duller one most novice will do.
A chisel is sharp when you can use it as a razorblade without damaging the skin, preferable on your arm...

If this project was done in the yard I worked at, we would first look to get the whole top out of the boat.
Older boats are often weakly glued and non structural. So much cleaner and efficient (labour expensive) to work in the wood shop with all the tools around you and dust no problem.
The need to cleaning a boat after a job was always avoided as much as possible, $$$$.

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On 8/19/2020 at 5:14 PM, SF Woody Sailor said:

I have one of those. Teeth cut the opposite direction. Very thin blade. I will use that. Thanks!

The Japanese solution is the flush trim saw, also available from Stanley and Harbor Freight. Teeth have either no set or set on one side only. A regular japanese saw works too, and you can protect the surface by laying a thin piece of plastic or pasteboard with a hole cut out over your plug before sawing (playing cards work okay). Then finish up with the sharp chisel, using a slicing motion.

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  • 3 months later...

As worktops go there are better alternatives than Corian.

Take a look at Swanstone from the US. https://swanstone.com/en Some of the advantages with Swanstone:

- Very light.
- 5 mm thin.
- 450-celsius heat resistant. 
- Will not easily get colour marks as Corian.
- The material got the same characteristics to work with as Corian. (According to a pro Corian fitter that tested the product for me in the UK.)

All of these makes the Swanstone an excellent material for yacht worktops. Especially refurbishment. 

Only one problem. The product is not for sale outside the US. It is not a new material, been around for years in the US. Of whatever reason, the product is not exported to Europe. There are ways around this. Cost for private export and shipping is high. 

 

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Lots of good suggestions here and obviously more than one way to skin this cat. I agree with the recommendations to remove the fiddles. Here are two more ideas you probably don't need but they worked for me:

1. Removing bungs to get to the screws in the fiddles: I just drilled a small hole in the bung down to the screw head itself, inserted another, larger screw and tightened until the bung remnant popped out enough for me to clean the hole and unscrew the fastener. I did not have a problem with damaging the sides of the hole but, if I had, I'd mix up some matching sawdust with glue, fill, sand and revarnish.

2. Making templates: The cardboard shim idea is genius but I'm a dumbass and made my template out of strips of 1/8" ply doorskin and used the hot glue gun assmble. You can cut the stuff with a good strong pair of scissors to match the curves. This might be better for templating vertical surfaces because the material is stiffer-I dunno.

Looking forward to the after pics.

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