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"In the Facebook post, a woman participant said she was in a yellow boat (seen in the video) that came to the sinking boat's rescue.

She claimed that the boat sank because it had "too many people on one boat" and not because of the Trump boats."

 

Looks like 4-5 adults on an 18-20 foot boat. Definitely fully loaded, but not overloaded per se. Certainly doesn't look like a high-freeboard boat to start with. I'm not surprised to see deflection and blame-shifting coming from the rally participants and organizers considering who the rally is for.

 

I've seen plenty of lobster boat parades, which feature much larger and heavier boats than shown in this video, and have never seen a sinking as a result. 

 

The real question is if anyone is legally liable. Rally organizers for not obeying/enforcing navigation/wake rules? Local harbormaster for approving the rally? Sunk boat captain for not checking Notices to Mariners?

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44 minutes ago, Commercial Boater said:

"In the Facebook post, a woman participant said she was in a yellow boat (seen in the video) that came to the sinking boat's rescue.

She claimed that the boat sank because it had "too many people on one boat" and not because of the Trump boats."

 

Looks like 4-5 adults on an 18-20 foot boat. Definitely fully loaded, but not overloaded per se. Certainly doesn't look like a high-freeboard boat to start with. I'm not surprised to see deflection and blame-shifting coming from the rally participants and organizers considering who the rally is for.

 

I've seen plenty of lobster boat parades, which feature much larger and heavier boats than shown in this video, and have never seen a sinking as a result. 

 

The real question is if anyone is legally liable. Rally organizers for not obeying/enforcing navigation/wake rules? Local harbormaster for approving the rally? Sunk boat captain for not checking Notices to Mariners?

Let’s just ignore all political connections for the moment. There are plenty of less sea worthy boats doing just fine in that video. There appears to be all kinds of stupid going on in that video. 
 

Unfortunately, because of the political situation, pretty much any witness they interview is going to have an opinion that magically correlates to their political view. 

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17 minutes ago, Flip Rigsby said:

You mean like an ID to vote?

No for the stupid parade in the no wake zone that directly related to the sinking of a seaworthy vessel.  

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6 minutes ago, DtM said:

FIFY

To be fair, that boat had all the bells and whistles a 18 ft wake board boat has, they blast around here all the time with 5-6 onboard.  Skinny kids, but that's the norm.  We have a dealer in our PL.  the top end ones run about 100K, so it aint a POS.  Saw somewhere where they were just floating.  Makes sense as the tube thing was deployed and it looked like kiddos were in the H20..  It is perfectly fine for a river, not for a frigging washingmachine.  

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1 minute ago, shaggy said:

To be fair, that boat had all the bells and whistles a 18 ft wake board boat has, they blast around here all the time with 5-6 onboard.  Skinny kids, but that's the norm.  We have a dealer in our PL.  the top end ones run about 100K, so it aint a POS.  Saw somewhere where they were just floating.  Makes sense as the tube thing was deployed and it looked like kiddos were in the H20..  It is perfectly fine for a river, not for a frigging washingmachine.  

The boat will be on my favorite salvage web site in a few months and I’ll post the auction for it to show you how worthless these things are at that price. 
 

I have to stop restoring classic boats and just repair wake boats and jet skis, I’d be a millionaire by 2024, I just hate those things...

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1 hour ago, shaggy said:

To be fair, that boat had all the bells and whistles a 18 ft wake board boat has, they blast around here all the time with 5-6 onboard.  Skinny kids, but that's the norm.  We have a dealer in our PL.  the top end ones run about 100K, so it aint a POS.  Saw somewhere where they were just floating.  Makes sense as the tube thing was deployed and it looked like kiddos were in the H20..  It is perfectly fine for a river, not for a frigging washingmachine.  

If the top end ones are only 100K, that dealer isn’t selling top end. And that boat was lacking many bells and whistles. 

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I’m going to say longer than 20’......why because boats under 20’ need to have enough foam to avoid sinking.USCG rules.....

outboard boats need level flotation, others just ‘basic’ flotation under 20’

and why you ask the differences, because back when the USCG looked at the accident rates 50 years ago most sinking were outboard boats under 20’ ........because most of the boats were that size as well......

so, an outboard boat 19’11” long has to have level flotation, an inboard boat at 20’01” long has no foam......European rules (ISO rules) are a little more logical

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14 hours ago, Monkey said:

If the top end ones are only 100K, that dealer isn’t selling top end. And that boat was lacking many bells and whistles. 

Ballpark.  I don't know the details on stinkpots like I do sailboats.  Never set foot on one and it's not like they have price tags on the ones gathering dust in the PL...  Last time I was at the boat show was about 8 years ago, so prices were around that than...  

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9 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

I’m going to say longer than 20’......why because boats under 20’ need to have enough foam to avoid sinking.USCG rules.....

outboard boats need level flotation, others just ‘basic’ flotation under 20’

and why you ask the differences, because back when the USCG looked at the accident rates 50 years ago most sinking were outboard boats under 20’ ........because most of the boats were that size as well......

so, an outboard boat 19’11” long has to have level flotation, an inboard boat at 20’01” long has no foam......European rules (ISO rules) are a little more logical

It's an inboard wake board boat, Designed to throw the biggest wake possible with 4 grown ass adults and a couple kids.  No outboard in site....  As to the volume??  They aint designed for top end flying, they are designed to throw big ass wakes.  You tell me about the volume up front...  

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9 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

.....European rules (ISO rules) are a little more logical

You mean more expensive and generally beyond the pale.

You mischaracterize the problem 50 years ago. There were  plenty of boats over 20 feet but they were not sinking. It is a simple rule but effective.

Let me further note that many U.S. boats over 20 feet are also designed with flotation. Furthermore and incorrectly some U.S. boats over 20 have capscity plates likevtheir under 20 brethren and apparently extrapolated calcs. This is an incorrect applocation of the regulations

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1 hour ago, shaggy said:

It's an inboard wake board boat, Designed to throw the biggest wake possible with 4 grown ass adults and a couple kids.  No outboard in site....  As to the volume??  They aint designed for top end flying, they are designed to throw big ass wakes.  You tell me about the volume up front...  

They use water ballast to achieve that wake. Seeing as they were setting up for tubing and everyone  is accepting the sailboat’s statement that they are in a no wake zone, that ballast tank should be empty. That’d be at least as much flotation as a 55 gallon drum or two. Maybe not enough to save the boat, but it shouldn’t have gone down like a rock. 
 

All of that is assuming we are receiving real facts from the unbiased folks on Twitter. 
 

Edit:  I was way low on my guess. Apparently twenty footers carry over 3000 lbs of water ballast, so over 6 55 gallon drums. 

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My real theory is that the sailboat isn’t in the no wake zone he thinks he is. The idiots in the sunken boat were carrying max water ballast (despite going tubing instead of wakeboarding), so riding very low in the water while sitting still. Then the parade of boats shows up cruising at the worst possible speed for throwing wake, and a perfect storm of idiocy sends a boat to the bottom. 

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10 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

I’m going to say longer than 20’......why because boats under 20’ need to have enough foam to avoid sinking.USCG rules.....

outboard boats need level flotation, others just ‘basic’ flotation under 20’

and why you ask the differences, because back when the USCG looked at the accident rates 50 years ago most sinking were outboard boats under 20’ ........because most of the boats were that size as well......

so, an outboard boat 19’11” long has to have level flotation, an inboard boat at 20’01” long has no foam......European rules (ISO rules) are a little more logical

I think you are right, but over 20' is still supposed to float, even if just the tip of the bow is sticking out of the water. We had one of our kit boats tested by the CG and it was very interesting.

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

My real theory is that the sailboat isn’t in the no wake zone he thinks he is. The idiots in the sunken boat were carrying max water ballast (despite going tubing instead of wakeboarding), so riding very low in the water while sitting still. Then the parade of boats shows up cruising at the worst possible speed for throwing wake, and a perfect storm of idiocy sends a boat to the bottom. 

I generally don't see those things sitting still..  They are usually ether in the cradle or blasting music with a rugrat flipping about behind.  You would think inherent stability would be semi decent in something designed for what it is designed for.  I mean, Multiple young people bouncing around yelling, screaming, dancing, filming with a dude doing summersaults off the back should have a decent amount built in even with the H20 ballast filled or all these things would be sunk based on the basic requirements needed to buy one...   So IMHO, that thing would have been fine if the idiots on parade did not show up...  

 

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I stopped making boats. after the CG came to my one man shop and wanted to know if my Brunzeel Occume plywood   racing dories had adequate flotation added to them.  "Most boats have to add foam", I showed them the calculations and explained that wood floats.  They then wanted me to make them beamier "like a Boston Whaier"   so that they wouldn't be so "tipsy" .  The final straw came when they said "you know with new safety regulations your liability as a  builder extends for the life of the watercraft, and is not assumed by the user".    The comments about the organizers of the" parade" being liable and the suitability a wakeboard. boats use, reconfirmed my exit from small craft design and manufacture.  It's a wake boat, they are supposed to almost sink, that's  how they  throw the wake, that[and the honking. stereos]is why people buy them.   That's why we need more lawyers and inspectors, to protect us from to two glasses of water it  takes us to drown.  Why be on the water, when you can make a living regulating those that are.   Is there a rant font?

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37 minutes ago, shaggy said:

I generally don't see those things sitting still..  They are usually ether in the cradle or blasting music with a rugrat flipping about behind.  You would think inherent stability would be semi decent in something designed for what it is designed for.  I mean, Multiple young people bouncing around yelling, screaming, dancing, filming with a dude doing summersaults off the back should have a decent amount built in even with the H20 ballast filled or all these things would be sunk based on the basic requirements needed to buy one...   So IMHO, that thing would have been fine if the idiots on parade did not show up...  

 

Stability isn’t an issue.  Low freeboard while sitting still is. A witness in the article said the boat looked overloaded and was sitting low in the water. 3000 pounds of water ballast in a 20 foot boat will certainly make it squat!  
 

I completely agree he was fine til the idiots on parade arrived. I’m merely suggesting the idiots with the sunken boat lacked an understanding of their boat’s weaknesses, along with situational awareness. Its still the fault of all the combined wakes though. 

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42 minutes ago, guerdon said:

It's a wake boat, they are supposed to almost sink, that's  how they  throw the wake, that[and the honking. stereos]is why people buy them

You said it much more eloquently than me.  Good show...  

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10 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Maybe that white couch looking thing is supposed to float the boat. It sure pops up with lotsa buoyancy 

funny how it took so long for someone to notice it and use it as a flotation device

which brings up a really important question, why do we spell "float" one way and then "flotation" without the "A"?

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14 hours ago, fastyacht said:

You mean more expensive and generally beyond the pale.

You mischaracterize the problem 50 years ago. There were  plenty of boats over 20 feet but they were not sinking. It is a simple rule but effective.

Let me further note that many U.S. boats over 20 feet are also designed with flotation. Furthermore and incorrectly some U.S. boats over 20 have capscity plates likevtheir under 20 brethren and apparently extrapolated calcs. This is an incorrect applocation of the regulations

At least ISO rules give you choices....downflooding angles, self bailing, stability or flotation

50years ago ‘most’ boats were under 20’ and nearly all were outboard powered, hence had most of the accidents

didn’t say anything that stops boats over 20’ having flotation.....it’s just they don’t ‘have’ to....

capacity plates are used up to 26’.......using NMMA rules that go above USCG....although yes, the calculation, based on volume, means that the allowable capacity rapidly increases to be an unrealistic number.

also, any of these wakeboard boats.....to get that much volume to carry a couple of thousand pounds of water will take the remaining volume that could be used for foam, not enough space for foam and ballast

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12 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I think you are right, but over 20' is still supposed to float, even if just the tip of the bow is sticking out of the water. We had one of our kit boats tested by the CG and it was very interesting.

No, only outboard boats over20’ have to have foam, inboard engine = no foam required

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I've said this elsewhere......The vid of a sinking vessel with flotsam and survivors being rescued is a perfect metaphor...."When Trump goes down, there'll still be a lot of shit left to clean up" ;-)

 

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6 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

At least ISO rules give you choices....downflooding angles, self bailing, stability or flotation

50years ago ‘most’ boats were under 20’ and nearly all were outboard powered, hence had most of the accidents

didn’t say anything that stops boats over 20’ having flotation.....it’s just they don’t ‘have’ to....

capacity plates are used up to 26’.......using NMMA rules that go above USCG....although yes, the calculation, based on volume, means that the allowable capacity rapidly increases to be an unrealistic number.

also, any of these wakeboard boats.....to get that much volume to carry a couple of thousand pounds of water will take the remaining volume that could be used for foam, not enough space for foam and ballast

"Downflooding angles" on a dinghy. Haha. That's why we require flotation....the EU approach is overly arduous for small craft. Okay yes I can calculate it. But really?

I want to see if the cost of the required EU scantling calcuations has actually achieved anything measurable and worthywhile of the cost....

50 years ago there were a LOT more inboards than there are now on a percentage basis!  We now have 60 foot outboards! Chris crafts had inboards....

Look at the stats today and you will find that the statistical approach served well.

NMMA is not a regulation...it is an industry group. ABYC is on the ISO board.

Wakeboad boats are stupid. Agree on that.

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21 hours ago, guerdon said:

I stopped making boats. after the CG came to my one man shop and wanted to know if my Brunzeel Occume plywood   racing dories had adequate flotation added to them.  "Most boats have to add foam", I showed them the calculations and explained that wood floats.  They then wanted me to make them beamier "like a Boston Whaier"   so that they wouldn't be so "tipsy" .  The final straw came when they said "you know with new safety regulations your liability as a  builder extends for the life of the watercraft, and is not assumed by the user".    The comments about the organizers of the" parade" being liable and the suitability a wakeboard. boats use, reconfirmed my exit from small craft design and manufacture.  It's a wake boat, they are supposed to almost sink, that's  how they  throw the wake, that[and the honking. stereos]is why people buy them.   That's why we need more lawyers and inspectors, to protect us from to two glasses of water it  takes us to drown.  Why be on the water, when you can make a living regulating those that are.   Is there a rant font?

I hear your pain

 However my dealingscwith USCG on small boat stuff have been very positive.

I could go into detail but not now.

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23 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I think you are right, but over 20' is still supposed to float, even if just the tip of the bow is sticking out of the water. We had one of our kit boats tested by the CG and it was very interesting.

Go read 33CFR parts applocable.

There is no flotation requirement over 20'. Also no freeboard, no downflooding, no stability, no subdivisiom, no watertight deck etc. The philosophy isvsimple: operator use your marbles. This is for pleasureboats. It is as it shoild be.

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Fastyacht,  I have no beef with the Coast Guard, I just don't see how you can make. common sense, common.  The more safe we are[comfortable] the less elegant our life experiences become, pretty soon we are reduced[seduced] to being on forums instead  sailing.  Aloha, Guerdon.

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