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Bottom Paint stripping/repainting in Van


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I need to redo the bottom paint on my '84 C&C 29 this winter. There's a couple layers of paint on the boat already which is starting to orange peel a bit on the keel and around the waterline. It's got Micron CSC on it right now. I've also got a half dozen or so small quarter sized blisters.

I'm thinking stripping the hull down to gelcoat and reapplying a barriercoat is going to be necessary before redoing the bottom paint. I'm not going to do this work myself because I've got limited vacation time and want to use it for being on the water.

I've reached out to a couple places in Vancouver to get this work done (Bluewater and Watertight) and their quotes (attached) vary quite a bit.

Watertight is suggesting to put on four coats of Interprotect 2001 barrier coat while bluewater is suggesting three coats of interprotect 2000. Otherwise I don't see much of a difference other than one being 50% higher than the other.

I've got no idea what I'm to expect with this and looking for some free advice. Any suggestions on the work getting done and/or people to do the work?

Note: Dollars are CDN, Micron 66 is not available in Canada, I'll be replacing my prop while the boat is out (myself)

Bluewater.pdf

Watertight.pdf

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I would ask each what the are considering a "coat". The key to any barrier coat, or bottom paint is the mil thickness of the finished product. Just browsing the quotes, it seems to me that Watertight's service is a little more detailed. I'm not sure if that has any bearing on the end result though.

Both the primer and bottom paints you are using are going to be on the expensive side of things, but worth it in my opinion. Shop markup on a coat of IP2000 alone can drive the price up for sure. 

Now with that being said, neither of these seem out of line. Actually Bluewater's quote seems a bit on the aggressively low side.

Having taken on a bottom job as a DIY project, 

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5 hours ago, climenuts said:

I need to redo the bottom paint on my '84 C&C 29 this winter. There's a couple layers of paint on the boat already which is starting to orange peel a bit on the keel and around the waterline. It's got Micron CSC on it right now. I've also got a half dozen or so small quarter sized blisters.

I'm thinking stripping the hull down to gelcoat and reapplying a barriercoat is going to be necessary before redoing the bottom paint. I'm not going to do this work myself because I've got limited vacation time and want to use it for being on the water.

I've reached out to a couple places in Vancouver to get this work done (Bluewater and Watertight) and their quotes (attached) vary quite a bit.

Watertight is suggesting to put on four coats of Interprotect 2001 barrier coat while bluewater is suggesting three coats of interprotect 2000. Otherwise I don't see much of a difference other than one being 50% higher than the other.

I've got no idea what I'm to expect with this and looking for some free advice. Any suggestions on the work getting done and/or people to do the work?

Note: Dollars are CDN, Micron 66 is not available in Canada, I'll be replacing my prop while the boat is out (myself)

Bluewater.pdf

Watertight.pdf

Looks like amateurs

antifoul is sandblasted off 

 very little sanding is done 

To achieve correct film thickness  both Epoxy primers and antifoul are applied with an airless sprayer 

Solicit more estimates ...for sandblast

modern blasters don’t make an environmental mess 

 

 

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That high bid is 1/2 the value of the boat.

Try Race Rock Yacht Services in West Van.

P.S. I hope Sluggo was referring to media blast. Using sand on a glass boat will really fuck it up. Soda and other less abrasive media are the only things to use on a glass hull.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

That high bid is 1/2 the value of the boat.

Yup.  AND it doesn't include storage on land or hauling out?

Bluewater says 3 days which is incredibly optimistic to my mind. Just allowing for minimum drying times between coats etc.

Are there many layers of CSC?? Since it's ablative is should have come off and not leave a heavy residue.

I paid 2 guys $28 over the course of 3 days to sand the bottom of my boat in South Africa. You should sail there and have the work done there. You'll save money and have fun along the way.

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It seems pretty caked on there to me. Photo Album of my last haul-out after a light pressure wash in April 2019: https://photos.app.goo.gl/H43c5tAc1ae9XyPa7

Visible are a couple blisters, the orange peely paint, etc.

The 1/2 boat value certainly stings more than I was expecting but I'm thinking I'll have the boat for at least 5 more years - possibly longer until I want a bigger ocean crossing boat. If I'm keeping this thing 5-8 more years is the removal & epoxy worth it/a good idea or do I just slap another couple coats and deal with a rough bottom?

I've spent $12k on sails already, what's another $7k for a smooth bottom? :'( 

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2 hours ago, climenuts said:

It seems pretty caked on there to me. Photo Album of my last haul-out after a light pressure wash in April 2019: https://photos.app.goo.gl/H43c5tAc1ae9XyPa7

Visible are a couple blisters, the orange peely paint, etc.

The 1/2 boat value certainly stings more than I was expecting but I'm thinking I'll have the boat for at least 5 more years - possibly longer until I want a bigger ocean crossing boat. If I'm keeping this thing 5-8 more years is the removal & epoxy worth it/a good idea or do I just slap another couple coats and deal with a rough bottom?

I've spent $12k on sails already, what's another $7k for a smooth bottom? :'( 

That bottom looks better than most as it is.

Use one of these with 40, then again with 80 then paint it.

Total cost less than 10% of the low bid.

001.JPG

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15 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That bottom looks better than most as it is.

Use one of these with 40, then again with 80 then paint it.

Total cost less than 10% of the low bid.

001.JPG

Yeah,

Hull is mostly fine, but the keel could use some work.  If you are planning on racing, not much point in spending $12k on sails with an unfair keel. And keep in mind a smooth bottom is not the same thing as a faired bottom.  Hull fairing beyond smoothing isn't critical but a fair keel is.

I don't think a barrier coat is necessary and with just a few blisters you can spot fix those in no time.

There is a company here at Shelter Island that does wet media blasting instead of dry blasting.  Their web-site is here: https://marineblast.ca/

I had an estimate from them on a cast iron keel and it was surprisingly inexpensive, something like a couple hundred bucks, and I believe they are mobile so they can do it anywhere.

What I would do in your situation is get the old paint blasted off the hull and foils then grind and spot fill the blisters. 

At a minimum I would use G/Flex to fill and smooth the keel/sump joint.  If you want to got the whole nine yards on the keel, contact the old Phil's Foils and get some keel templates made up - 3 is a good number.  They could well have the keel shape specs for a C&C 29 on file since it is a reasonably common boat.  Back when I had some made up for my Hotfoot 27, I made some careful measurements of the chords and thicknesses and point of maximum thickness and called them up and they resolved my boat had a NACA  64010 keel.  I had 3 templates made up.  A couple of templates fit almost perfectly, but it took some knocking down and filling to get the keel to match the last template.  Which is something to keep in mind - few keels out the factory door end up anywhere near perfect.  Almost invariably some bulges, hollows, or even twist.

Finally I would paint her.

Another benefit to a DIY approach is that in normal times you're not limited to bottom paints only available in Canada.  Just pop over the border and pick up a few gallons of Pettit Trinidad.  Not sure how you could do that today though.  A guy who had a sistership in False Creek got 7 years out of his Trinidad - although it required more effort to clean by year 5.

 

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33 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Yeah,

Hull is mostly fine, but the keel could use some work.  If you are planning on racing, not much point in spending $12k on sails with an unfair keel. And keep in mind a smooth bottom is not the same thing as a faired bottom.  Hull fairing beyond smoothing isn't critical but a fair keel is.

I don't think a barrier coat is necessary and with just a few blisters you can spot fix those in no time.

There is a company here at Shelter Island that does wet media blasting instead of dry blasting.  Their web-site is here: https://marineblast.ca/

I had an estimate from them on a cast iron keel and it was surprisingly inexpensive, something like a couple hundred bucks, and I believe they are mobile so they can do it anywhere.

What I would do in your situation is get the old paint blasted off the hull and foils then grind and spot fill the blisters. 

At a minimum I would use G/Flex to fill and smooth the keel/sump joint.  If you want to got the whole nine yards on the keel, contact the old Phil's Foils and get some keel templates made up - 3 is a good number.  They could well have the keel shape specs for a C&C 29 on file since it is a reasonably common boat.  Back when I had some made up for my Hotfoot 27, I made some careful measurements of the chords and thicknesses and point of maximum thickness and called them up and they resolved my boat had a NACA  64010 keel.  I had 3 templates made up.  A couple of templates fit almost perfectly, but it took some knocking down and filling to get the keel to match the last template.  Which is something to keep in mind - few keels out the factory door end up anywhere near perfect.  Almost invariably some bulges, hollows, or even twist.

Finally I would paint her.

Another benefit to a DIY approach is that in normal times you're not limited to bottom paints only available in Canada.  Just pop over the border and pick up a few gallons of Pettit Trinidad.  Not sure how you could do that today though.  A guy who had a sistership in False Creek got 7 years out of his Trinidad - although it required more effort to clean by year 5.

 

This is great. Thanks for taking the time.

I'm not going to be doing this stuff myself - I just don't have the time. I'll probably reach out for revised quotes from these guys and have a call to try and paraphrase what you've suggested. Perhaps in the future I'll do it myself with some better paint but I'll stick with the yard putting CSC on it for a couple years. Pretty sure the stuff on the boat is pushing 4 years and it's just becoming difficult to keep clean this summer.

The guy at Watertight said the barriercoat wasn't strictly necessary but since I was taking everything off it would be the time to do it and he highly recommended it.

Looking on Old Phil's Foils site doesn't seem to have anything C&C 29 related. Lots of 27 stuff (as expected). I'll chat with these yard guys and see what they can offer as far as fairing the keel goes.

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25 minutes ago, climenuts said:

This is great. Thanks for taking the time.

I'm not going to be doing this stuff myself - I just don't have the time. I'll probably reach out for revised quotes from these guys and have a call to try and paraphrase what you've suggested. Perhaps in the future I'll do it myself with some better paint but I'll stick with the yard putting CSC on it for a couple years. Pretty sure the stuff on the boat is pushing 4 years and it's just becoming difficult to keep clean this summer.

The guy at Watertight said the barriercoat wasn't strictly necessary but since I was taking everything off it would be the time to do it and he highly recommended it.

Looking on Old Phil's Foils site doesn't seem to have anything C&C 29 related. Lots of 27 stuff (as expected). I'll chat with these yard guys and see what they can offer as far as fairing the keel goes.

I hear what you're saying.  I did the bottom job on my boat myself.  Figured I could save money and do a better job.  But it ended taking a lot longer than I originally planned and ended up costing me almost $7k - about $5k of which was yard storage fees.  The first six months over the winter weren't too bad, but as soon as April hit it jumped to $1k/mo for storage.

But I believe I did do a better job, and mine involved removing the gel coat and full on keel fairing.

Something to consider when hiring someone else to do it are that there aren't many out there that can do a proper keel fairing job.  So I would not ask someone to quote on a keel fairing job because to do it properly will cost a lot more IMO and not many can do it properly unless they specialize in that sort of thing.  It's not something most local contractors get a lot of requests for.  So I wouldn't bother going full out on keel fairing unless I was going to do it myself.  But definitely get that keel/sump joint done - that's a very quick and easy job.

Another thing, if you do decide to go the barrier coat route, keep in mind (as some previous posters mentioned) that it's not the number of coats that count but the overall thickness.  For a 29 footer, I think the numbers from the Interlux web-site would suggest a minimum of 4 gallons.  On my 27 footer I applied the better part of 4 gallons of 2002E and it took me 10 rolled on coats to do that.

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Update:

Talked to Erik at Watertight again and he concurred with the suggestions here once he saw the photos. He said he was expecting something a lot worse as typically things are pretty bad when he gets asked to do a whole scrape job. He suggested that they could just allow for a couple more hours of sanding/prep time on each side to get things smooth and just repaint after doing the keel-sump joint and the isolated blister repairs. He was saying he couldn't really guarantee the spot repairs on the blisters due to potential underlying issues but that he's done them before and they've lasted just fine.

He's going to revise his quote to reflect some extra sanding & prep, repainting, and doing the keel-sump joint. He's saying he'll send photos or give me time to look at the boat after sanding to give me the opportunity to take it further if I want to. Blisters will be extra as they find them (as expected). He also suggested that if I do some extra sanding every year/two years when I redo the bottom it'll get smoother over time and they won't have to go crazy all at once.

He also had some big criticism on the Bluewater quote saying there's no way they could do that work in 3 days, they didn't allow for paint cost, too little epoxy coats, etc.

Thanks for the advice (especially @12 metre) Looks like you've saved me enough cash that I could buy you guys a beer :)

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WTF would you barrier coat an entire 1984 hull if it’s only got (6) 25mm blisters????
 

Those blisters could be between the bottom paint & gelcoat. Not the classic blister between the gelcoat & glass. Even if they are real Simply  fill the with epoxy fairing compound and barrier coat with regular epoxy. Go a bit wide on the margins to prevent anymore. 

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14 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

WTF would you barrier coat an entire 1984 hull if it’s only got (6) 25mm blisters????
 

Those blisters could be between the bottom paint & gelcoat. Not the classic blister between the gelcoat & glass. Even if they are real Simply  fill the with epoxy fairing compound and barrier coat with regular epoxy. Go a bit wide on the margins to prevent anymore. 

Easy way to find out is to pop the blister and smell.  If it smells like vinegar, it is not likely just a paint blister.

Going a bit wide will help, but new blisters can form anywhere.  Just a part of routine maintenance if the hull suffers from blisters.  When you haul out, spot repair any new blisters.

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On 8/19/2020 at 11:53 AM, 12 metre said:

Hull fairing beyond smoothing isn't critical but a fair keel is.

@12 metre could you say more about this, including with any sources I could look at? Or, if it's just your own expertise that's fine too. Genuinely curious. thank you.

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4 hours ago, Breamerly said:

@12 metre could you say more about this, including with any sources I could look at? Or, if it's just your own expertise that's fine too. Genuinely curious. thank you.

Ideally, all surfaces would be smooth and fair.

First, let's differentiate between smooth and fair surfaces.  In simplest terms, smooth means little surface roughness while fair means no bumps or hollows.

You can  use a small sanding block or ROS to progressively sand a surface down to 2000 grit, and it may feel mirror smooth and fair but it will not likely be so.  A photo of my old boat below is evidence of this.  I originally used a ROS to smooth out the fairing compound. But after applying a guide coat it was clear it was not fair.

So I hit it with a longboard and more fairing compound and you can see where the lows were by the light coloured patches.  

In the second photo, the barrier coat has been applied and about to start the process of templating the keel.

I could go on for pages but it's getting late.  I can continue on another time if you're interested.

In the meantime, I suggest you Google: laminar flow, Reynolds Number, boundary layer, viscous sublayer (because they all relate to this), and NACA airfoils

2010-05-14 006.JPG

2010-05-15 003.JPG

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In case you're not familiar with longboarding, here the guys of WOXI show how it's done.

In spite of what most people seem to think, it is not back breaking work if you're positioned properly.  Very fast and easy since you take off so much with one swipe.  Mostly an upper body workout.  Making the boards was probably the most time consuming thing for me.  Fairing the hull in prep for the barrier coat was maybe 2-3 hours of effort with the longboards

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7 hours ago, 12 metre said:

In case you're not familiar with longboarding, here the guys of WOXI show how it's done.

In spite of what most people seem to think, it is not back breaking work if you're positioned properly.  Very fast and easy since you take off so much with one swipe.  Mostly an upper body workout.  Making the boards was probably the most time consuming thing for me.  Fairing the hull in prep for the barrier coat was maybe 2-3 hours of effort with the longboards

One thing to point out - those very long boards that take 2 or 3 people to work are not necessary on small boats.

The 20" Hutchins I posted works just fine on boat 30' or less.

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46 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

One thing to point out - those very long boards that take 2 or 3 people to work are not necessary on small boats.

The 20" Hutchins I posted works just fine on boat 30' or less.

No one is going to use a board that long on a 30 footer.  The ones I made for the hull were designed for single person use and were 42' x 8" (the width of the floor sanding paper)   So my boards had 7x the sanding surface area of the Hutchins.  Nothing wrong with the Hutchins if you want a smooth and reasonably fair surface. 

But a properly sized longboard with an appropriate amount of spring to it is quicker, requires less effort and does a better job of fairing.   I worked for a custom builder and a Hutchins or anything like it was nowhere to be seen.  Always a longboard for fairing.

But I wouldn't recommend those 3M boards they sell.  The stiff ones work fine on perfectly flat surfaces, but the springy one has too much spring for most parts of the hull - maybe around the turn of the bilge they might work.

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9 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Ideally, all surfaces would be smooth and fair.

First, let's differentiate between smooth and fair surfaces.  In simplest terms, smooth means little surface roughness while fair means no bumps or hollows.

You can  use a small sanding block or ROS to progressively sand a surface down to 2000 grit, and it may feel mirror smooth and fair but it will not likely be so.  A photo of my old boat below is evidence of this.  I originally used a ROS to smooth out the fairing compound. But after applying a guide coat it was clear it was not fair.

 

Very interesting, I will read up.

Can you say any more thought about the emphasis on the keel over the hull? I'm pretty new to this side of things and while I think I have an idea (the hull is just a flat surface generating friction but the keel is... A wing?) any clarification/confirmation would be of interest. Since the keels a wing generating lift to windward, does it affect pointing ability as well as speed?

Also, what kind of marginal changes are we talking about here? For instance, I just reencapsulated my Santana's fin keel and got it smooth but *not fair. If I were to go back and fair it next time I do bottom paint would we be taking a one percent speed increase? Five percent? Ten?

 Curious because I had always heard 'oh a smooth bottom ain't that important won't ever make more than a couple percent difference it's just for racers here have a snoot and quit worryin' about it lad' but the new paint and tiny bit of fairing (smoothing!) I did made a noticeable difference - in the ballpark of half a knot or more under power (sail obviously more ambiguous to compare but a difference there, too)

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1 hour ago, Breamerly said:

Very interesting, I will read up.

Can you say any more thought about the emphasis on the keel over the hull? I'm pretty new to this side of things and while I think I have an idea (the hull is just a flat surface generating friction but the keel is... A wing?) any clarification/confirmation would be of interest. Since the keels a wing generating lift to windward, does it affect pointing ability as well as speed?

Also, what kind of marginal changes are we talking about here? For instance, I just reencapsulated my Santana's fin keel and got it smooth but *not fair. If I were to go back and fair it next time I do bottom paint would we be taking a one percent speed increase? Five percent? Ten?

 Curious because I had always heard 'oh a smooth bottom ain't that important won't ever make more than a couple percent difference it's just for racers here have a snoot and quit worryin' about it lad' but the new paint and tiny bit of fairing (smoothing!) I did made a noticeable difference - in the ballpark of half a knot or more under power (sail obviously more ambiguous to compare but a difference there, too)

For a body moving in a fluid, there are 2 main components to drag:  Frictional (or viscous) drag and pressure drag.  You are right about frictional drag, you can equate the hull to a flat plate and is pretty much dependent on surface area and is the dominant portion of drag at low speed.  

Pressure drag relates to the shape of the body and is the dominant portion of drag at higher speeds.  The reason hollows and bumps are bad is it slows down or speeds up the flow respectively and if you remember one of the Bernoulli brothers equation, slower flow has decreased kinetic energy resulting in increased pressure energy. and vice versa.  The small localized variations in pressure add to the pressure drag of an otherwise fair body.  Not much, and for most people it's not worth the effort of fairing.  A link and a video describe this in more detail and probably explain it better: https://www.princeton.edu/~asmits/Bicycle_web/blunt.html#:~:text=Frictional drag is important for,sectional area of the body.  

However, ships don't operate in a fluid - they operate at the interface of 2 fluids - water and air.  So you have the added wrinkle of wave making drag.  Plus residuary drag elements such as induced drag (foil tips) and interference drag (foil to hull interface) which I won't discuss here but you can look those up.

However, more important than a smooth fair bottom is a clean bottom.  Even the best fairing job won't get you half a knot of speed.  It might allow you to cross a parade of starboard tackers coming into the weather mark - or escape from a lee bow situation.

But if there is any growth, cleaning the bottom can gain you half a knot or more.  A few strands of kelp on the rudder can slow you down that much. 

A faired keel will help with speed and point.  Again, not necessarily much and some people may not notice a difference.  But for others it is a matter of "no stone unturned".  And to some degree, the keel section enters in to the factors.  For example, the keel on my old boat had a 6 series section (NACA 64A010 to be precise) which are known for their inherent drag bucket at low angles of attack.  So lower drag than a 4 digit while producing similar lift (i.e. better L/D ratio).  But also a fairly finicky section requiring near perfect shape and  clean surface.  Overall the more forgiving 4 digit section is probably a better choice in most instances and that is what you will find on most boats.

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1 hour ago, 12 metre said:

But if there is any growth, cleaning the bottom can gain you half a knot or more.  A few strands of kelp on the rudder can slow you down that much. 

A faired keel will help with speed and point.  Again, not necessarily much and some people may not notice a difference.  But for others it is a matter of "no stone unturned".  And to some degree, the keel section enters in to the factors.  For example, the keel on my old boat had a 6 series section (NACA 64A010 to be precise) which are known for their inherent drag bucket at low angles of attack.  So lower drag than a 4 digit while producing similar lift (i.e. better L/D ratio).  But also a fairly finicky section requiring near perfect shape and  clean surface.  Overall the more forgiving 4 digit section is probably a better choice in most instances and that is what you will find on most boats.

Interesting indeed.

Well, I will look it up but sounds like not something to be worth stripping and redoing, since it's already done. But I will keep that in mind next time I do heavier-duty stripping, and am trying to talk myself out of more hours behind the sander.

It must have been growth that slowed me down before. I kept the hull pretty scrubbed but had a good handful of hard stuff on the very middle of the bottom of the keel (hard to reach with just a mask). In future I'll take a few extra breaths and try to reach it.

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  • 1 month later...

As a follow-up to my original post:

Looks like everyone was right about not stripping and barrier coating the boat. Found 15 blisters which are all quite small that are getting spot patched.

Watertight is doing a great job. Hauled out Monday morning (19th) and visited the boat last night (20th) to install a new prop and everything is looking really good. I'm extra impressed with the work to smooth the keel. 

Photos thus far for anyone interested: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vnatn4GXRccUU76i6

Scheduled to splash on Friday - trying to bribe the yard guys with beer to let me sit in the lift for an hour over lunch to let the keel paint dry.

 

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The watertight guys came highly recommended, I spent a lot of time on the phone and sending photos of the previous haul-out, etc. The bluewater quote also didn't really make sense as their time estimate was less than the cure time for the paint. My referral to watertight got me 5 or 10% off, I forget the exact figure, and the guy referring me also gets the same discount on his next job. Overall the gut feel was just way better.

Overall I'm happy with the decision. They're sending me photos throughout the day of their progress, he explained his anticipated timeline, the work is getting done quickly and per the quote (so far), it looks good, and he's helping me get the yard guys to leave me in the lift over lunch for the keel paint.

The yard at Lionsgate marina were also far better than my previous experience over at Mosquito Creek. They took the time to understand the underwater layout of the boat before hauling me unlike the guys at Mosquito. The guys at Mosquito also did a shit job blocking the boat and tried to charge me to re-block it when I told them it was moving around.

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5 hours ago, climenuts said:

As a follow-up to my original post:

Looks like everyone was right about not stripping and barrier coating the boat. Found 15 blisters which are all quite small that are getting spot patched.

Watertight is doing a great job. Hauled out Monday morning (19th) and visited the boat last night (20th) to install a new prop and everything is looking really good. I'm extra impressed with the work to smooth the keel. 

Photos thus far for anyone interested: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vnatn4GXRccUU76i6

Scheduled to splash on Friday - trying to bribe the yard guys with beer to let me sit in the lift for an hour over lunch to let the keel paint dry.

 

CSC has an immersion time of 16 hours, you can expect some solvent encapsulation if you splash it earlier. On the bottom of the keel is no biggie, just run it up onto a sandbank at low tide to clean it off.

On 8/18/2020 at 5:16 PM, See Level said:

Why barrier coat a 35 year old boat where there may be a couple of blisters that may or may not actually be into the laminate? 

I don't recall C & C boat's ever having a blister problem.

'85 and '86 C&C's of all sizes seem to have some blister issues. That's one of the reasons I went with an '84. Not saying they all had, but all the worst blisters I have seen have been on those years.

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My Dash 34 had no blisters for 33 years.  Then it had a few, which I repaired.  Then it had a few more, which I repaired.  Then it had blisters everywhere.  With luck, repairing the few you had will be all that is necessary.

Without a barrier coat, there is a pretty good chance you will see more of them in the future.  Hopefully not a full on pox like my boat had.  Worst case, plan for the strip and barrier coat a couple of haulouts down the road.

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I haven't heard of major blistering issues on the 84s just the odd ones like I'm experiencing.

I am super pumped to have a smooth bottom and a folding prop on this thing this weekend.

What are recommendations on prop-kote? I never put anything on the last prop and growth was never too bad.

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44 minutes ago, climenuts said:

I haven't heard of major blistering issues on the 84s just the odd ones like I'm experiencing.

I am super pumped to have a smooth bottom and a folding prop on this thing this weekend.

What are recommendations on prop-kote? I never put anything on the last prop and growth was never too bad.

I meant we liked the '84's because of the lack of blistering, just in case I was unclear. Our 29 was also an '84. 

You'll love the folder (maybe, depending on which one), when we went from a 2-blade Michigan Wheel to a Max Prop, it was night and day.

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13 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I meant we liked the '84's because of the lack of blistering, just in case I was unclear. Our 29 was also an '84. 

You'll love the folder (maybe, depending on which one), when we went from a 2-blade Michigan Wheel to a Max Prop, it was night and day.

Yes, I was just speaking to my experience thus far.

I got a 2-Blade flex-o-fold and upped the pitch by an inch to 14×11. I'll find out tomorrow how it does.

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4 hours ago, climenuts said:

Yes, I was just speaking to my experience thus far.

I got a 2-Blade flex-o-fold and upped the pitch by an inch to 14×11. I'll find out tomorrow how it does.

We are in the process of getting a FOF for our Jeanneau 36.2.  What is the thinking behind upping the pitch?  This is my first prop purchase and while I have done quite a bit of research the pitch thing is a bit of a mystery.  We had FOF recommend a 16 x 12 for us.  Any help with this appreciated.

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2 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

We are in the process of getting a FOF for our Jeanneau 36.2.  What is the thinking behind upping the pitch?  This is my first prop purchase and while I have done quite a bit of research the pitch thing is a bit of a mystery.  We had FOF recommend a 16 x 12 for us.  Any help with this appreciated.

...when looking into this for you I realized I fucked up my propeller purchase... Shit.

I thought my existing prop was 13x09 for some reason but after taking it off I realized it was 14x10.

FOF recommended the 14x10 but I was spooked at the idea of having a big jump and I reduced it to 14x09... I guess I should've listened to FOF.

My thought process on upping the pitch was because the old prop lacked the balls to push the boat in heavy seas and the engine didn't seem fully loaded at max RPM. I wanted something that would grab more and use the available engine power more effectively. I think the goal is to have the engine able to reach near max revs and be fully loaded when wide open. Currently I can hold it at 3,700-3,800 RPM without any black smoke at all and it doesn't bog down when I hit any waves. Was looking to have it fully loaded at 3,500-3,700 RPM at speed and bog down a bit if the boat slowed to maximize power.

Anyone want to trade 14x09RH blades for 14x10RH or 14x11RH? :rolleyes: I'm well past the return window :( Oh well, what's another $550.

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39 minutes ago, climenuts said:

...when looking into this for you I realized I fucked up my propeller purchase... Shit.

I thought my existing prop was 13x09 for some reason but after taking it off I realized it was 14x10.

FOF recommended the 14x10 but I was spooked at the idea of having a big jump and I reduced it to 14x09... I guess I should've listened to FOF.

My thought process on upping the pitch was because the old prop lacked the balls to push the boat in heavy seas and the engine didn't seem fully loaded at max RPM. I wanted something that would grab more and use the available engine power more effectively. I think the goal is to have the engine able to reach near max revs and be fully loaded when wide open. Currently I can hold it at 3,700-3,800 RPM without any black smoke at all and it doesn't bog down when I hit any waves. Was looking to have it fully loaded at 3,500-3,700 RPM at speed and bog down a bit if the boat slowed to maximize power.

Anyone want to trade 14x09RH blades for 14x10RH or 14x11RH? :rolleyes: I'm well past the return window :( Oh well, what's another $550.

Is the $550 the prop or the shipping?  Seems like a lot for shipping but not enough for the prop.  We are looking at ca. $1200 USD for the 16" prop.

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10 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Is the $550 the prop or the shipping?  Seems like a lot for shipping but not enough for the prop.  We are looking at ca. $1200 USD for the 16" prop.

$550 is just for the blades...

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6 minutes ago, climenuts said:

$550 is just for the blades...

Ah, I see.  Thanks for sharing the thoughts on pitch.  The 36.2 is a pretty common boat so I think we'll go with FOF's suggestion.  

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

We are in the process of getting a FOF for our Jeanneau 36.2.  What is the thinking behind upping the pitch?  This is my first prop purchase and while I have done quite a bit of research the pitch thing is a bit of a mystery.  We had FOF recommend a 16 x 12 for us.  Any help with this appreciated.

I would go with their recommendation - just make sure they have accurate engine/gearbox numbers.

For my Islander 34 (10k lbs) with a Beta 25 (25 hp / 3600 rpm, gear reduction ratio 1:2.60) they recommended a 2-blade 17x11 and that was spot on. I get 3550 rpm flat out so I know I'm putting the full power down and that's close enough to full rated RPM that I'm not bogging the engine.

I've been very happy with the prop. Zero regrets saving $2500 over a Max Prop.

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5 hours ago, climenuts said:

...when looking into this for you I realized I fucked up my propeller purchase... Shit.

I thought my existing prop was 13x09 for some reason but after taking it off I realized it was 14x10.

FOF recommended the 14x10 but I was spooked at the idea of having a big jump and I reduced it to 14x09... I guess I should've listened to FOF.

My thought process on upping the pitch was because the old prop lacked the balls to push the boat in heavy seas and the engine didn't seem fully loaded at max RPM. I wanted something that would grab more and use the available engine power more effectively. I think the goal is to have the engine able to reach near max revs and be fully loaded when wide open. Currently I can hold it at 3,700-3,800 RPM without any black smoke at all and it doesn't bog down when I hit any waves. Was looking to have it fully loaded at 3,500-3,700 RPM at speed and bog down a bit if the boat slowed to maximize power.

Anyone want to trade 14x09RH blades for 14x10RH or 14x11RH? :rolleyes: I'm well past the return window :( Oh well, what's another $550.

Can't you get the blades re-pitched an inch?

When I had my Martec rebuilt they cut an inch of diameter off and took two inches of pitch out. It was a 15 X 14 on a 2GMF pushing a 6200 Lb race boat :o they made it into a new 14 X 12

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Worth a try. I'll call them to see.

My engineer mind is telling me the diameter reduction in SJBs case correlated to the pitch reduction and it probably wasn't a geometrical change to the blades. I think it would be difficult to increase pitch.

Bright side is I can just get blades and have them changed in the water and keep the others as spares on the boat. As long as the hub stays on I could change the blades in a pinch.

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5 hours ago, Zonker said:

Talk to Osborne propellers. If they can't do it, nobody locally can.

I couldn't find anyone in B.C. who would touch a folding prop - they all just did fixed wheels.

Had to send my Martec to Arizona.

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4 hours ago, climenuts said:

My engineer mind is telling me the diameter reduction in SJBs case correlated to the pitch reduction and it probably wasn't a geometrical change to the blades. I think it would be difficult to increase pitch.

No, they did both changes. The prop was wildly oversized so they reduced both diameter and pitch to get it closer to ideal. IIRC Yanmar spec'd 15 X 10 for my engine

Apparently the blades can be heated and twisted. I was told 2" was the maximum pitch change possible on a given blade - I didn't ask but presumably that's 2" either way.

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