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3 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Covid has a lot of people from "away" hiding out in Maine, bringing their culture, or lack thereof, with them.

I'm building a special arch to hold a rack of those "tactical nuclear stereo speakers" that the ski boats have on them. Looking forward to sharing my taste in music with my fellow cruisers in Maine. :lol:

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My neighbor across the harbor and I both have outdoor speakers and bagpipe CD’s. When visiting boats are a bit loud after 10PM we have found a coordinated few minutes of our favorite piping tracks sen

Well, here’s an odd idea for someone that wants to make a few bucks. (Emphasis on few). Create an app with something like a $5 a year subscription fee. If you have a private mooring, you can list it.

If it's late and the mooring is empty, pick it up. 

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3 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I'm building a special arch to hold a rack of those "tactical nuclear stereo speakers" that the ski boats have on them. Looking forward to sharing my taste in music with my fellow cruisers in Maine. :lol:

My neighbor across the harbor and I both have outdoor speakers and bagpipe CD’s. When visiting boats are a bit loud after 10PM we have found a coordinated few minutes of our favorite piping tracks sends a clear message. It has been quite a while since we have had to deploy such tactics. Of course there is also the real thing.....and I have not practiced in a long while so I am a lousy piper who doesn’t even bother to tune the drones.......

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2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

If I don't have a right to place a mooring in front of my home, then you sure as hell have no right to anchor there.

That's not actually how public lands work. Broadly speaking they are available to all for shared, temporary use, but to none for exclusive long-term use.

2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

You can't just pitch a tent on public property just because you want to. B)

Have you ever been camping? Have you heard of a national Forest or park?

Clearly there are a few types of public lands where camping is not allowed - namely road rights-of-way and local/muni parks. But camping is explicitly allowed (even encouraged) on the vast majority of state and federal land.

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

 

If I don't have a right to place a mooring in front of my home, then you sure as hell have no right to anchor there. By your own definition, that would be squatting. You can't just pitch a tent on public property just because you want to. B)

I am not sure Breamerly realizes his language is pretty much the same as all the numerous dipshits that want to basically outlaw anchoring altogether.

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36 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am not sure Breamerly realizes his language is pretty much the same as all the numerous dipshits that want to basically outlaw anchoring altogether.

Did you get hit in the head on a jibe?

I literally self-quoted last time you tried to paint me into this corner, to show you the several places where I said moorings should be legal, anchoring should be legal, etc. 

And in my most recent post, I was literally describing the precedent for anchoring being allowed.

But you keep banging your nuance-proof drum: "he wants to ban moorings! He wants to ban anchoring!"

I like a lot of your posts outside of this thread but this is getting tiresome.

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2 hours ago, Breamerly said:

That's not actually how public lands work. Broadly speaking they are available to all for shared, temporary use, but to none for exclusive long-term use.

Have you ever been camping? Have you heard of a national Forest or park?

Clearly there are a few types of public lands where camping is not allowed - namely road rights-of-way and local/muni parks. But camping is explicitly allowed (even encouraged) on the vast majority of state and federal land.

Duuuude, your sarcasm meter is broken. I was quoting Baldur to show how silly his post was. 

i was a rock climber for years, climbed hard 5.12 to soft 5.13 (if there is such a thing)well into my 50's, so yeah, I've camped. 

But I've never started a whine-fest over something so minor.  You should focus on bigger problems, such as which good wines can handle the shaking that is inherent to offshore sailing. 

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1 hour ago, Breamerly said:

Did you get hit in the head on a jibe?

I literally self-quoted last time you tried to paint me into this corner, to show you the several places where I said moorings should be legal, anchoring should be legal, etc. 

And in my most recent post, I was literally describing the precedent for anchoring being allowed.

But you keep banging your nuance-proof drum: "he wants to ban moorings! He wants to ban anchoring!"

I like a lot of your posts outside of this thread but this is getting tiresome.

You said this exactly:

I said that in its current form the system is open to abuse, as evidenced by public harbors being used essentially as parking lots for private boats.

Some of us have read nearly the same sentences in the infamous anchoring wars of Florida and Georgia. You may - actually probably - have no idea that you were echoing what we read before, but it surely did bring up memories of those longstanding issues. Also make one wonder if you are familiar with what harbors are used for :rolleyes:

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I have a mooring ball here in Olympia, WA.  It is on public land controlled by the Dept. of Natural Resources.  I pay a fee to them yearly to lease this public land from them so I can locate my equipment there.  There are twelve mooring sites currently.  Although there is a years long wait to get one of these, only nine are occupied by boats.   Of the boats in field, four are used regularly, four others are never used but generally taken care of once a year. The other boat was placed there and the owner hasn't been seen again.  Probably about the same statistics as a marina.

I understand both sides of issue now. It never occurred to me that there might be some hostility for having a mooring ball.

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5 minutes ago, rcbrds said:

...........I understand both sides of issue now. It never occurred to me that there might be some hostility for having a mooring ball.

Yeah, same here, I was caught by surprise by this thread.

 

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5 hours ago, kimbottles said:
6 hours ago, Ajax said:

I'm building a special arch to hold a rack of those "tactical nuclear stereo speakers" that the ski boats have on them. Looking forward to sharing my taste in music with my fellow cruisers in Maine. :lol:

My neighbor across the harbor and I both have outdoor speakers and bagpipe CD’s. When visiting boats are a bit loud after 10PM we have found a coordinated few minutes of our favorite piping tracks sends a clear message. It has been quite a while since we have had to deploy such tactics. Of course there is also the real thing.....and I have not practiced in a long while so I am a lousy piper who doesn’t even bother to tune the drones.......

My home guitar amp... and it's my "home" amp because it's too big & heavy for me to tote around any more... has two channels: tactical and strategic. Although not officially labelled as such, it goes a bit past 11, it's not quite as loud as the 600W double 4x12 stack I owned at one point in my squandered life (and ironically I am a much better guitar player now than I was then), it's plenty loud enough to drive away unwanted visitors at a half mile.

Only thing worse than an out of tune bagpipe is an out of tune guitar. And I have some pedals that (according to Mrs Steam) make it sound worse!

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, rcbrds said:

I have a mooring ball here in Olympia, WA.  It is on public land controlled by the Dept. of Natural Resources.  I pay a fee to them yearly to lease this public land from them so I can locate my equipment there.  There are twelve mooring sites currently.  Although there is a years long wait to get one of these, only nine are occupied by boats.   Of the boats in field, four are used regularly, four others are never used but generally taken care of once a year. The other boat was placed there and the owner hasn't been seen again.  Probably about the same statistics as a marina.

I understand both sides of issue now. It never occurred to me that there might be some hostility for having a mooring ball.

I have 6 moorings. I pay the annual fee on them to the leasing authority and have them serviced every 2 years. 3 of those moorings are available to visitors, 2 have boats on them and the remaining one is allocated to a friend's boat currently cruising. 3 of the moorings are in the bay in front of my house, 1 is in the bay up town nearest the marine industrial suppliers and the other 2 are in probably one of the 2 most sheltered spots in the D'Entrecasteaux Channel. Those ones regularly get used by people who ask, including Govt authorities at times.

Breamerly probably thinks that people like me shouldn't have any moorings. I assume therefore, that he'll never ever ask anyone for the use of something he so heartily disapproves of. His loss.

Have to point out that the exact same argument about alienation of waterfront from the public applies to all marinas and private jetties.

FKT

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21 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Breamerly probably thinks that people like me shouldn't have any moorings. I assume therefore, that he'll never ever ask anyone for the use of something he so heartily disapproves of. His loss.

As usual, I came off too negative to start, when in fact my feelings are mixed.

I think there is a very worthwhile discussion about who should get to have moorings, and how much of a bay moorings should get to take up. Should you get to have six moorings in the same Bay if others are waiting, with your sixth mooring taking up the last spot for a.transiemt anchorer? I think that's a bit much.

If you actively use your mooring, and it's not crowding out anchorers (ie, cruisers) I don't really have a problem with it.

I do feel like there should probably be a system of permits and checking up like Kent-sailor described, or like that other fellow described as existing in his harbor on Bainbridge Island. I've said as much every time someone has mentioned that in this thread.

As to your broader note about public land, I do differ from some, I guess. Seems like Oregon has it right, with a right-to-pass applying to all shorelines in the state. Does that mean I disprove of all marinas or private docks? Not at all.

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3 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Yeah, same here, I was caught by surprise by this thread.

 

I hope you were able to differentiate my criticism of the system (or lack thereof in some parts) and my feelings about the way you obviously handle and share your private balls (positive).

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You said this exactly:

I said that in its current form the system is open to abuse, as evidenced by public harbors being used essentially as parking lots for private boats.

Some of us have read nearly the same sentences in the infamous anchoring wars of Florida and Georgia. You may - actually probably - have no idea that you were echoing what we read before, but it surely did bring up memories of those longstanding issues. Also make one wonder if you are familiar with what harbors are used for :rolleyes:

It's cool how every comment on this thread you bring round to being an insult at the end.

I'm sorry my comments remind you of something the bad people said. However, I think am actually saying something very different from what they said. If you're scared of my dog because it reminds you of the dog that bit you, I can't do much about that.

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3 minutes ago, Expat Canuck said:
On 8/21/2020 at 9:26 PM, Breamerly said:

Turns out marinas are fetid hell pits tho

That's pretty harsh.  the marina operators I know spend a lot of time, effort and $ to make them nice. 

Yeah but what about those bull rails, huh? Huh?

That, plus I just wanted to say that Fetid Hell Pit would be a great name for a band

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Breamerly said:

I hope you were able to differentiate my criticism of the system (or lack thereof in some parts) and my feelings about the way you obviously handle and share your private balls (positive).

Ultimately yes, I am glad you clarified your position.

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

Round here a mooring is either owned freehold, or leased from the state government, so like the folks living on the shore line, we have title to our property.

Let's not spoil a good rant with facts.

There's a lot of scope for more whining yet. What about all those lobster pots for example?

FKT

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5 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Round here a mooring is either owned freehold, or leased from the state government, so like the folks living on the shore line, we have title to our property.

I should mention that I hold title to our tidelands to extreme low tide which is minus 4.5 feet here in Puget Sound.

Our dock is at least 90% located over our own property. The rest of the dock location is permitted by the State and the City.

Yes, our moorings are out past that point but they are licensed by the State and permitted but the City. 

Just thought some facts might help people better understand some of the issues in this thread.

(Breamerly: if you ever find yourself in Blakely Harbor let’s have a chat. This has been an interesting worthwhile thread.)

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I think in the end this is a crowding issue. People here don't care because we have plenty of space for a shrinking population of cruisers. There is literally no place I can go here and be annoyed by a "destination mooring" and even if there was one someplace I would just move over. The very few places people might try to do that, mainly Annapolis, have rules against doing so. Not a resident - not a chance. We also have a lot of generally sheltered creeks that have decent holding and are relatively shallow.

This seems to be much more of an issue where there is a large population of boaters fighting over much more limited space and/or much more difficult anchoring conditions.

* I am going to rant now about the dickhead who anchors his huge powerboat in Fog Cove (Saint Michaels) with *4 anchors* so his boat doesn't move and effectively takes up half the anchorage between his non-swinging boat and lines all over :angry:

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Well, here’s an odd idea for someone that wants to make a few bucks. (Emphasis on few). Create an app with something like a $5 a year subscription fee. If you have a private mooring, you can list it. When it’s available, you mark it as vacant on the app. As long as your’s is marked vacant, you’re now able to reserve someone else’s vacant mooring. On your listing you have to describe ground tackle and the last time it was inspected. You could also contact each other through the app in case of any issues. It’d be a nice friendly way to put all those open moorings to use. 

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21 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Pffft. I just read that in the US, "Freehold" in the manner in which @olaf hart used it, is now a racist term.

https://www.insidernj.com/change-freeholder-county-commissioner/

Get woke, or get canceled.

Racist?  That's a weird reading of the article you cited.  The primary criteria as I see it is land owner.

Quote

The term “Freeholder” is a feudal anachronism, having originated in Medieval England to designate a white male who owned an estate or land free and clear. In Colonial times, only Freeholders were eligible to be chosen for membership on New Jersey county governing bodies. Slaves, tenants, and women were ineligible.

The term “Freeholder” is incompatible with a democratic form of government that welcomes the participation of all citizens, including those who do not own real property, are women, or are persons of diverse racial and ancestral origin. New Jersey is the only state that retains the title, the term “County Commissioner” being commonly used in other states. Like other states, county government in New Jersey operates under the commission form of government, with each Freeholder being assigned responsibility for specific departments and functions.

Monmouth County residents are disadvantaged in two ways by use of the phrase “Board of Chosen Freeholders” to describe the county governing body.  Many believe that they cannot vote for a candidate for “Freeholder” because they do not live in Freehold Township, Freehold Borough or Upper Freehold Township.   In addition, most county residents are unaware of the services and programs provided by the members of the Freeholder Board.

 

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9 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Well, here’s an odd idea for someone that wants to make a few bucks. (Emphasis on few). Create an app with something like a $5 a year subscription fee. If you have a private mooring, you can list it. When it’s available, you mark it as vacant on the app. As long as your’s is marked vacant, you’re now able to reserve someone else’s vacant mooring. On your listing you have to describe ground tackle and the last time it was inspected. You could also contact each other through the app in case of any issues. It’d be a nice friendly way to put all those open moorings to use. 

I have been giving some thought to this and the liability aspect worries me. If you drag my mooring, are you going to fix it for me? If you drag my mooring until your boats hits something, am I going to fix your boat for you?

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3 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have been giving some thought to this and the liability aspect worries me. If you drag my mooring, are you going to fix it for me? If you drag my mooring until your boats hits something, am I going to fix your boat for you?

There you go, ruining a perfectly good idea with reasonable questions.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have been giving some thought to this and the liability aspect worries me. If you drag my mooring, are you going to fix it for me? If you drag my mooring until your boats hits something, am I going to fix your boat for you?

At least for starters, you could include a maximum displacement limit as part of the description. You’d also have to have your own boat description listed as part of the app. That way, someone doesn’t try to reserve a mooring rated for 10K lbs with some gigantic boat that’s likely to drag it. Not a perfect answer, but it could minimize risk. 

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Just now, kent_island_sailor said:

I like the idea, the devil is in the details and then you get the Air BnB effect where people start putting out moorings to be rented out, not because they need one, and this lets them get around regulations of commercial mooring fields.

That’s why I wanted it to be a subscription fee/exchange, and not the AirBnB model where you charge for use. This model has no incentive to put out extra moorings. 

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32 minutes ago, Monkey said:

That’s why I wanted it to be a subscription fee/exchange, and not the AirBnB model where you charge for use. This model has no incentive to put out extra moorings. 

Interesting.

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1 hour ago, kimbottles said:

I should mention that I hold title to our tidelands to extreme low tide which is minus 4.5 feet here in Puget Sound.

Our dock is at least 90% located over our own property. The rest of the dock location is permitted by the State and the City.

Yes, our moorings are out past that point but they are licensed by the State and permitted but the City. 

Just thought some facts might help people better understand some of the issues in this thread.

(Breamerly: if you ever find yourself in Blakely Harbor let’s have a chat. This has been an interesting worthwhile thread.)

Interesting...

North of the border, your title extends to the High tide line, not low tide.  So anyone can walk on your shoreline, below the high water mark.

 

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34 minutes ago, Expat Canuck said:

Interesting...

North of the border, your title extends to the High tide line, not low tide.  So anyone can walk on your shoreline, below the high water mark.

 

That is true in California , Oregon and most US states too. Washington is different from the norm as the state sold the tidal lands sometime around 1900. Maybe that wasn’t a good idea, but they did it. We get to pay property taxes on them.

I have no problem with people simply walking across my beach. I don’t like them to try and use my dock, start a campfire or have a picnic in my back yard.

(I was also not very happy when someone walked out my dock in the middle of the night and “borrowed” all the electronics off one of my vessels. The jerk did not simply unplug them either, he cut all the cables so they all had to be replaced and rerun when we replaced the electronics.)

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I'm surprised I haven't seen the term "riparian rights" mentioned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_water_rights

In some jurisdictions, at some points in history, one could purchase water-lots.  Great-grandaddy bought the water-lots from the township after barges started showing up dredging away all the nice sand in his bay.  Wiki says some Eastern states (and Canada) support this model, and great-grandaddy's rights have been, ahem, grandfathered, sub-divided, sold, etc. since.  Still no zombie-balls out there, though.

How about "Use at own risk" -  I think I could come up with a simple spray-stencil that would fit a mooring ball.  Should cover up "Private" quite nicely.  ;-)

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

The term “Freeholder” is a feudal anachronism, having originated in Medieval England to designate a white male who owned an estate or land free and clear.

By the way, the term "free and clear" would rule out anyone who has a mortgage on their property, right?  Easy to see why the "retired Judge of the Superior Court of New Jersey" who wrote that article believes the term "Freeholder" is outdated and inappropriate.

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43 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

That is true in California , Oregon and most US states too. Washington is different from the norm as the state sold the tidal lands sometime around 1900. Maybe that wasn’t a good idea, but they did it. We get to pay property taxes on them.

I have no problem with people simply walking across my beach. I don’t like them to try and use my dock, start a campfire or have a picnic in my back yard.

(I was also not very happy when someone walked out my dock in the middle of the night and “borrowed” all the electronics off one of my vessels. The jerk did not simply unplug them either, he cut all the cables so they all had to be replaced and rerun when we replaced the electronics.)

Navigable waters of the US (and public right of use) extend to the high tide line, as well as to any nearby wetlands, regardless of whether the owner has title to the tidelands. 
 

good defs here
 

https://www.nap.usace.army.mil/Portals/39/docs/regulatory/regs/33cfr328.pdf

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14 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Navigable waters of the US (and public right of use) extend to the high tide line, as well as to any nearby wetlands, regardless of whether the owner has title to the tidelands. 
 

good defs here
 

https://www.nap.usace.army.mil/Portals/39/docs/regulatory/regs/33cfr328.pdf

Yes, some people refer to that as the “Public Trust Doctrine”.

The Public Trust Doctrine is a legal principle derived from English Common Law. Under this doctrine, the waters of the state are a public resource owned by and available to all citizens equally for:

  • Purposes of navigation
  • Conducting commerce
  • Fishing
  • Recreation and similar uses

The Public Trust Doctrine trust is not invalidated by private ownership of the underlying land. The doctrine limits public and private use of tidelands and other shoreline areas to protect the public's right to use the waters of the state.

(There are some Washington State Supreme Court rulings about that which add some confusion to the whole subject.)

 

However, if we could just all be “Reasonable” and realized we are all in this “Life” thing together, maybe we could find some common ground and avoid conflict. (Yeah, I know that I am dreaming here....)

 

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12 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

However, if we could just all be “Reasonable” and realized we are all in this “Life” thing together, maybe we could find some common ground and avoid conflict. (Yeah, I know that I am dreaming here....)

That's what Rodney King said: "Why can't we all just get along?"

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You and Rodney are in good company, dream on!

Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one
 -- John Lennon

And I think this is part of his answer to your good question (in bold) - most of us are still fucking peasants, surviving as best we can:

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be
There's room at the top they're telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
 -- John Lennon

 

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9 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Well, that's not very woke, is it? B)

Yes, yes, you are quite correct there.

My plan is to own all the moorings in the bay out the front of my house, so I can control who can stop there. Power boats and catamarans will be banned, banned I tell you!

FKT

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9 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yes, yes, you are quite correct there.

My plan is to own all the moorings in the bay out the front of my house, so I can control who can stop there. Power boats and catamarans will be banned, banned I tell you!

FKT

MacGregors only

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have been giving some thought to this and the liability aspect worries me. If you drag my mooring, are you going to fix it for me? If you drag my mooring until your boats hits something, am I going to fix your boat for you?

For the same reason, if someone “borrows” my mooring I don’t want money for it, don’t want the liability a contract carries.

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8 hours ago, Monkey said:

Well, here’s an odd idea for someone that wants to make a few bucks. (Emphasis on few). Create an app with something like a $5 a year subscription fee. If you have a private mooring, you can list it. When it’s available, you mark it as vacant on the app. As long as your’s is marked vacant, you’re now able to reserve someone else’s vacant mooring. On your listing you have to describe ground tackle and the last time it was inspected. You could also contact each other through the app in case of any issues. It’d be a nice friendly way to put all those open moorings to use. 

That may work. We did toss about the idea of short-term renting my vacant moorings but the liability issues and actually getting paid once people knew where the mooring was turned me right off the idea. Too much hassle for too little return. Restricting entry to people who have an available mooring is a different matter, then they too have skin in the game. We do this already on an informal basis. I've used one of Olaf's moorings on occasion and have offered him the use of mine in return. I have a visiting cruiser on another of mine at the moment.

I don't have any compunction about picking up a vacant mooring with sufficient swing room for a lunch stop or similar.

FKT

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37 minutes ago, Breamerly said:

MacGregors only

Strangely that’s not a joke round here, there is a Mac65 that someone has spent a heap of dollars restoring in the local marina, half way round the world downwind of its origins.

Probably won’t get back home any time soon as it’s all upwind..

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39 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

For the same reason, if someone “borrows” my mooring I don’t want money for it, don’t want the liability a contract carries.

State says not legal to rent our buoy here in Washington, so we don’t have to worry about that.

State also says not legal to live aboard at our buoy.

City of Bainbridge Island says our buoy must be used, or it should be removed, Don’t know the details on that one, but back before I purchased our “sailor’s motorboat” lending it to friends and random cruisers helped keep it occupied. Now FRANKIE pretty much lives on it.

Don’t think any state and city regulations conflict with each other, at least not that I have seen.

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On the surface wa state is clear-cut, but if you aren't a land owner the speed of things moves in a much lower gear.  Our friend in Deer Harbor had a mooring put in by a local contractor per code with all applications and permits filed by contractor.  I think it's been in the queue for approval for something like seven years.  

Can't say I have ever been annoyed by too many moorings.  Makes it interesting sometimes especially coming in after dark, but wherever we go on our boat at the end of the day we are a guest so we gets what we get.

 

Sounds like FKT is playing the long game to take over the island... Secure the harbors first then Viva la revelation!

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19 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

On the surface wa state is clear-cut, but if you aren't a land owner the speed of things moves in a much lower gear.  Our friend in Deer Harbor had a mooring put in by a local contractor per code with all applications and permits filed by contractor.  I think it's been in the queue for approval for something like seven years.  

I have a friend here in Blakely Harbor who has had the same experience, application has been in queue for quite a while now. My buoys came with the house, so I just renewal with state and when The City of Bainbridge Island decided to get involved I applied for my existing moorings and it went thru fairly fast and painlessly.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That may work. We did toss about the idea of short-term renting my vacant moorings but the liability issues and actually getting paid once people knew where the mooring was turned me right off the idea. Too much hassle for too little return. Restricting entry to people who have an available mooring is a different matter, then they too have skin in the game. We do this already on an informal basis. I've used one of Olaf's moorings on occasion and have offered him the use of mine in return. I have a visiting cruiser on another of mine at the moment.

I don't have any compunction about picking up a vacant mooring with sufficient swing room for a lunch stop or similar.

FKT

It was just an odd thought I had. With no renting, there’s no liability. It makes no difference to me. Anchoring out and private moorings aren’t really a thing in my region. I was just tossing out ideas. It was more fun than arguing about who owns what. 

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12 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Strangely that’s not a joke round here, there is a Mac65 that someone has spent a heap of dollars restoring in the local marina, half way round the world downwind of its origins.

Probably won’t get back home any time soon as it’s all upwind..

One of the nicest families we ever met cruising were on a Mac 26x. It got the whole family out on the water, at a price they could afford. They ended up aboard for supper one night, since we had room for the whole gang of kids below and the adults ate in the cockpit. Not sure we ever had so much fun in one night. 

Covid really sucks, because we love to invite people aboard, and that's all gone for the time being. 

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Different ownership and entitlement issue:

There is an island near here called Dobbins Island. It has never been public property, but erosion caused the house on it to fall off a cliff sometime maybe around the 1930s. The owners paid no attention to the island after that and it was a favorite hangout for kids, families, parties, camping, and so on for generations. I took my first girlfriend there and met my wife there. Some summer weekends you could hardly find a spot to pull up on the beach or anchor.

This all went along fine until someone tracked down all the heirs, bought the island, and built a house. These people got quite irate that they could not seem to keep people from traipsing all over their island and eventually put up signs and a little fence at the tide line. They also frequently complained about noise from rowdy raftups and boats pulled up on the beach with stereos blasting. I had some sympathy for them -  some - but not too much because it was like buying Sandy Point State Park, building a house on the beach, and then complaining about the crowds :rolleyes:

Then things got much worse when the locals, not to be deterred by little signs, organized a yearly HUGE raft-up that included a freaking rock band on a barge with a generator. The island residents got so pissed off they got a law introduced to making rafting up illegal without a prior permit from the state government :o The event was out of hand, it was almost all drunk powerboaters and it did keep the water cops busy. I honestly can't recall if the law ever passed, passed and got rescinded, or was ignored. The raft-up event stopped because the organizers were afraid of getting sued due to stupid drunk boater tricks.

* if any of you ever read "Skipper's First Sail" by Richard Henderson, this is the island in the book.

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@kent_island_sailor

So, several things at play here:

1. This is like buying a house next to an airport and then demanding that all the flight patterns be changed to accommodate you.

2. The owner of Dobbins Island violated SEVERAL environmental regulations to build his property and litigation is still ongoing. So, fuck that clown.

3. This asshole's "personal law" that he had crafted was originally written so that even very small groups (like 20, if I recall) would require a permit. Boaters got wind of this and had the bill modified so that the number of boaters that would trigger the permit is larger. (100). Here's the link:

https://dnr.state.md.us/Boating/Pages/marine_gatherings.aspx

Yes, the Dobbins Island "Bumper Bash" had gotten out of hand. One one hand, hundreds and hundreds of clueless, rude, ignorant powerboaters. On the other hand, an entitled, rich asshole landowner who doesn't understand where his rights end, who not only successfully "purchased" legislation but also flouted the law when it suited him, to build his home.

https://www.capitalgazette.com/news/ac-cn-little-dobbins-20190628-story.html

Somehow, this prick had the resources to illegally expand the footprint of his structures yet now he claims that he lacks the resources to demolish them in order to comply with the law and judgements against him.

If I had the resources, I'd marshal 500 asshole powerboaters and have them anchor off this guy's property for 2 hours and 59 minutes, 5 days per week (so as not to trigger the "marine gathering" permit requirement) and blare Twisted Sister music until he flees his little island.

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Intersting subject as the mooring issue is becoming more problematic in our area, below is photo of the closest protected anchorage to us. The author of the article I copied it from points out there are far more balls than shoreline properties, and I can vouch for the fact that most go unused even at peak boating season. We anchored there last weekend and finding a spot is a challenge. I am not anti mooring at all, but the right seems to be abused. Interestingly I am there often enough to have learned that several closer to shore are used only to block others from anchoring close by, so I anchor there knowing there will not ever be a boat to swing into. 

This raises an issue. In some cases people can legally have a mooring, but do they have the right to exlude use by anchoring boats nearby? By that I mean if I anchor close to a ball that is empty, and balls owner shows up in his/her boat later, can I be asked to move or is it their problem?

mv-Archimedes-Port-Madison-mooring-buoys

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8 minutes ago, steele said:

Intersting subject as the mooring issue is becoming more problematic in our area, below is photo of the closest protected anchorage to us. The author of the article I copied it from points out there are far more balls than shoreline properties, and I can vouch for the fact that most go unused even at peak boating season. We anchored there last weekend and finding a spot is a challenge. I am not anti mooring at all, but the right seems to be abused. Interestingly I am there often enough to have learned that several closer to shore are used only to block others from anchoring close by, so I anchor there knowing there will not ever be a boat to swing into. 

This raises an issue. In some cases people can legally have a mooring, but do they have the right to exlude use by anchoring boats nearby? By that I mean if I anchor close to a ball that is empty, and balls owner shows up in his/her boat later, can I be asked to move or is it their problem?

mv-Archimedes-Port-Madison-mooring-buoys

If it is a State Licensed Buoy I would think you as a respectful guy would move. After all apparently it is there to be used if the owner shows up and wants to use it. The process to get the license from the state and the permit from the city is not easy and costs money. I wonder if anyone has actually gone through it without planning to use the buoy. I suspect buoys placed to deter anchoring are not legally licensed and permitted. 

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15 minutes ago, steele said:

This raises an issue. In some cases people can legally have a mooring, but do they have the right to exlude use by anchoring boats nearby? By that I mean if I anchor close to a ball that is empty, and balls owner shows up in his/her boat later, can I be asked to move or is it their problem?

 

Yes you have to move. The mooring obviously was there first and cannot be moved. Why would you want to anchor so close to a mooring you could swing into it and hit it and/or tangle up your anchor line anyway?

Also if all those moorings just sit there empty, who put them in and why?

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

If I had the resources, I'd marshal 500 asshole powerboaters and have them anchor off this guy's property for 2 hours and 59 minutes, 5 days per week... and blare Twisted Sister music until he flees his little island.

Now this is something with the potential to be a great app

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Are you confusing assholes? The illegal builder guy is - AFAIK - on Little Island at the other side of the anchorage and the prime complainer is on Dobbins.

No, read the 2nd link I included. Daryl Wagner built on Dobbins without permits. He was then cited and got "retroactive" permits. Then, he was (rightly) told that he illegally expanded the footprint and that he must demolish the pool and other structures in order to get back to within the 3,325 sq feet that he was legally allowed to built on. Now, he's dragging his feet on the demolition process.

I'm ok with him building on the island.

I'm not ok with him skipping permits. I'm not ok with him flouting environmental regulations that the rest of us must live by. You wouldn't believe the shit that @Innocent Bystander and I go through to make minor modifications to our property that this guy simply ignored. I'm also not OK with Daryl Wagner thinking that he owns all the waters surrounding his private, little island, and crafting personalized legislation that serves his personal interests at the violation of all of Maryland boaters' liberties.

Edit: After double-checking, it's "Little Dobbins Island."

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On 8/23/2020 at 11:12 AM, kimbottles said:

I never understood this not wanting boats in ones view, I LOVE transient vessels to come anchor here in Blakely Harbor. I like looking at the various vessels and I have met so many really great people by going out in my skiff and asking about the design of their boat. Part of the joy of having waterfront property is interacting with so many different people and vessels. And it is always a real kick when it turns out the person is someone here on SA. That has happened a number of times. Some of my best pals are people I have met thru SA. 

Kim is one of the most hospitable boat/waterfront homeowners I have ever met and I have witnessed his 'stewardship' that he shows to the little wonder that is Blakely Harbor. 

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Yes you have to move. The mooring obviously was there first and cannot be moved. Why would you want to anchor so close to a mooring you could swing into it and hit it and/or tangle up your anchor line anyway?

Also if all those moorings just sit there empty, who put them in and why?

It was more of a theoretical question. I always anchor away from moorings, but because they move very little compared to anchored craft it can take a bit of mental gymnastics to figure it all out in a crowded bay.

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On 8/23/2020 at 3:09 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

What I would like to see in Maryland is a permit/sticker system so when a mooring hasn't been used in years, you can track down the owner and confirm it is abandoned and get rid of it.

I'm not a big fan of big government, in this case having a position funded by tax dollars to go around and inspect moorings.  Shouldn't be needed in this case.

Pass an ordinance that all mooring buoys must be labeled with Name and Phone number and it must be readable, and cannot be left unused for X number of days.

If someone pulls up to an unused ball, call the number on it to see if you can use it. 

If it sits for more than x number of days unused any member of the public (complainant)  can contact local code enforcement then government gets involved.  If code enforcement cannot get in touch with the person after x calls or contact information on the ball is not readable the complainant is notified and they can do whatever they want with the buoy: remove it, replace  it, claim it (put their contact info on it), ...  I am pretty sure that in these places that people are complaining about there is at least one person that would be more than happy to be the mooring inspector for free.  

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2 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

And apparently you aren't a big fan of privacy rights either.  Your suggestions are heavy handed.  Imagine if they applied to cars?  No thank you!

How is my suggestion a violation of Privacy?  No one is forcing someone to put out a mooring ball.  

 

" Imagine if they applied to cars?"  You mean what if we were required to put something on a car that would allow identification of the owner if it was left unattended in a public space for a long period of time?

 

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21 minutes ago, rockb said:

You mean what if we were required to put something on a car that would allow identification of the owner if it was left unattended in a public space for a long period of time?

I mean name and phone number, not a license plate.  But that's only one of several problems with your suggestions.

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3 minutes ago, andykane said:

In Canada, you legally need to include your name, address and phone number on all private buoys, including mooring buoys. Compliance is hit or miss, and there's minimal enforcement, but the rules are there.

That seems like a PITA from a space standpoint. Trying to cram all that info on there and keep it legible, I mean.

Surname and phone number, sure that would fit easily enough. Or if privacy is an issue, a license or permit # that can be cross referenced to a phone number by maritime law enforcement.

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So Sunday it howled out of the west here in Maine. I wanted to visit a friend on Vinalhaven, so Tucky and I decided to make for Perry's Creek. It's shallow, and pretty full of moorings, so we picked up a likely looking one, and figured we'd have about 1.5' under the keel at dead low. A friend on Polly (57' wood S&S built by Henry Nevins for his own use) picked up the mooring behind us.

A while later a gent from a small trawler yacht dinghied by and introduced himself. He owns and maintains the mooring we were on, as well as several others, all free on a first come basis, and gave us a package of trail maps and info for the Vinalhaven Land Trust properties on the island, including those bordering the Creek. No pressure, but if we later decided to donate to the Trust it would be a nice thing. As it turns out the friends we were visiting are major donors the the Trust, the wife is a trustee, and they know and love the gentleman with the moorings. 

All in all a quite satisfactory situation. 

Edit to add: in the morning, with the breeze down, we motored across to Calderwood Neck to visit our friend, and picked up one of several large, well- maintained moorings clearly marked GUEST. 

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1 hour ago, andykane said:

In Canada, you legally need to include your name, address and phone number on all private buoys, including mooring buoys. Compliance is hit or miss, and there's minimal enforcement, but the rules are there.

The rules in Canada are awesome! It's the wild west out here. It's basically pure anarchy.

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34 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

So Sunday it howled out of the west here in Maine. I wanted to visit a friend on Vinalhaven, so Tucky and I decided to make for Perry's Creek. It's shallow, and pretty full of moorings, so we picked up a likely looking one, and figured we'd have about 1.5' under the keel at dead low. A friend on Polly (57' wood S&S built by Henry Nevins for his own use) picked up the mooring behind us.

A while later a gent from a small trawler yacht dinghied by and introduced himself. He owns and maintains the mooring we were on, as well as several others, all free on a first come basis, and gave us a package of trail maps and info for the Vinalhaven Land Trust properties on the island, including those bordering the Creek. No pressure, but if we later decided to donate to the Trust it would be a nice thing. As it turns out the friends we were visiting are major donors the the Trust, the wife is a trustee, and they know and love the gentleman with the moorings. 

All in all a quite satisfactory situation. 

Edit to add: in the morning, with the breeze down, we motored across to Calderwood Neck to visit our friend, and picked up one of several large, well- maintained moorings clearly marked GUEST. 

Vinalhaven is a truly lovely place, both on land and to cruise. Had the same pleasant experience with moorings a few years ago. 

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On 8/21/2020 at 6:42 AM, slap said:

Sounds like something out of a horror movie......

 

Just sayin'.

And at four bells in the middle watch, an unseen dinghy puts silently off from shore, making ominous way toward the sleeping vessel lying snug on the borrowed mooring 

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4 hours ago, Latadjust said:

And at four bells in the middle watch, an unseen dinghy puts silently off from shore, making ominous way toward the sleeping vessel lying snug on the borrowed mooring 

followed closely by a large anaconda and two pythons

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On 9/2/2020 at 1:11 PM, Ajax said:

Surname and phone number, sure that would fit easily enough. Or if privacy is an issue, a license or permit # that can be cross referenced to a phone number by maritime law enforcement.

I still do not see where privacy is an issue.  If you don't want to put your home or cell phone number on it get a google voice number, it is free.  If you choose not to check the voice mail (not hard at all since they send you an e-mail containing an mp3 every time someone leaves a message) when the code enforcement folks call then your mooring disappears.  And once again no one is forcing anyone to put one out.  And again we are only talking about unused moorings that are left unused for long periods of time.  

The only person I can see that would have a problem putting their name on one is someone who knows that they are going to take up space in a public mooring area while never using that space.  

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In the age of doxxing and cancel culture you do not understand the desire for privacy? 

Come back when you are serious.

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On 9/2/2020 at 4:00 PM, Alaris said:

Vinalhaven is a truly lovely place, both on land and to cruise. Had the same pleasant experience with moorings a few years ago. 

Maybe at the Perry's Creek end.  Earlier this season Vinalhaven islanders were cutting trees down across roads to keep people from "away", away.  When we put in to Carver's a while ago, only one lobsterman (of many) deigned to reply to our question about moorings. The only place on the coast where people seemed actually antagonistic towards sailors.  The guest moorings there are outside of the harbor, the other side of Potato Island.  It's a good half mile from the town dinghy dock, and open to the west. We left the next day and won't be back. 

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11 hours ago, PaulK said:

Maybe at the Perry's Creek end.  Earlier this season Vinalhaven islanders were cutting trees down across roads to keep people from "away", away.  When we put in to Carver's a while ago, only one lobsterman (of many) deigned to reply to our question about moorings. The only place on the coast where people seemed actually antagonistic towards sailors.  The guest moorings there are outside of the harbor, the other side of Potato Island.  It's a good half mile from the town dinghy dock, and open to the west. We left the next day and won't be back. 

I am fortunate to know some islanders but suspect your experience would not necessarily be uncommon for anyone else from away. 

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