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Yeah it’s another one of these stupid posts. But why not juuuust one more? I have a 1985 O’Day 28 which I bought to learn on. I could have afforded a lot more boat but the reason I could have afforded it is because I don’t throw money away. And I didn’t know what I didn’t know about owning my own boat. I like the boat and have learned a lot but I will upgrade in the next year or two. I am looking for suggestions on possible boats. 

Goals:

Day sailing, local cruising over nights, longer cruising 5-7 days. I will not go cruising for months as my wife doesn’t enjoy sailing and I like her. Not crossing any oceans. 

Conditions:
- I’m only 56 buy the body has taken a beating and two knee replacements have been the capper. I have a heart condition that is non life threatening now but I get tired and will need surgery in a few years. So ease of use is key.
- I need to be able to single hand all the time. Even when family are with me I need to be prepared to handle it all. 

- I don’t give a crap about racing other than watching others do it but I’d like to get another knot or two of boat speed beyond the 6.5 I get out of the ODay.

What I LOVE about the O’day: Masthead sloop. My Yanmar. Huge inside for a 28’ boat. Standing headroom. Goes upwind pretty damn well. Autopilot. Furling Genoa. Very sturdy & dry hull construction. Very good visibility. Not fussy in terms of how well the rig is tuned. I really like the way the boat it looks (I know purists think it’s a generic Chevrolet production boat but I think it is a nice looking boat).

What I HATE about the O’day:

- Cockpit is small And it’s a pain in the ass to get around the wheel especially to deal with the mainsail. I would like a more comfortable cockpit. 

- Rounds up. Nimble, but I don’t like on gusty days over 20 it can be a handful especially when I have nervous passengers. I don’t like fighting the rudder this much and it’s not my favorite thing to be messing with the mainsheet and/or traveler so often by myself.

- Only the main and boom vang are led aft so I have to go to the mast to reef and get the main up and down. I didn’t mind this on rented boats before (liked doing it actually) but with the knees now I get afraid.

- Doyle stack pack. I thought I would like this more than I do. It makes the sail cover easy but dicking around with the lines and having the battens catch in any kind of wind has gotten tedious. It does not just drop neatly into the sack like those nifty Doyle YouTube videos. So, I am thinking of pussying out and getting a furling main, but maybe not.

- Everything is old. I have learned a lot fixing things and it has been a joy really but on the next boat I do not want this much joy. I have rebuilt the head and all the hoses, replaced most of the wiring, rewired the AC power, replaced the batteries, shore charger, VHF, chart plotter, pumps, lines, bimini, on and on it goes. I am not close to being done. 

- Fit and finish inside. O’day made a sturdy boat but cut corners on the fit and finish. In this regard it actually is a Chevrolet. I would like something a bit “nicer” with a better galley and head that my wife would enjoy weekending on. 
 

Budget: I’m thinking $50-80k more or less ready to go, plus another $10-15k for new electronics and doo dads.
 

Things I’m looking at: 2000-2010 vintage. Maybe newer, certainly no older. Beneteau 323 or 343, Catalina 350 MKII, things like that. I am fine with production boats as I err on the side of solid reliable and I don’t want pretty wood topside. 
 

OK, have at it. (I appreciate all I have learned from you guys.)

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They are older boats now but a Nonsuch would make a lot of sense since it is very easy to sail and gives you lots of room. A Nonsuch 30 is more like most 33s. There are also 33 and 36 footers which start to get very huge indeed. Get one with, or add, an electric halyard winch or a powered winch handle. The sail is very large and a load to lift with a regular winch. The wishbone boom does a terrific job of catching the sail when you drop it. You sail the boat from the helm so there is very little moving around needed. The 30s have two very different interior plans, pick the one that meets your needs. There is exterior teak but with the money you save on the purchase you can get someone to keep it up.

Look around for a boat that has been babied. There are a lot in LIS and on the Great Lakes.

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Suggest you look at a 2005 and later Hanse  The 34 was redesigned 2005; the 37 and 40 in 2006. All Hanse are designed to sail with a self tacking jib which makes solo sailing a breeze.  If you can stretch your budget a little I have a pristine 37 that I’m considering selling. No need to add anything. 

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2 hours ago, Latadjust said:

You might try out a Catalina 36 Mk II, decent sailing qualities and a lot of room below, which is more pleasing to the wife, also will fit your budget. Should be able to bareboat one for an afternoon sail

I own a Catalina 36 Mark II which is a fine boat but still think the Nonsuch makes more sense for the OP.

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I wouldn't take for granted that a 2004 Beneteau Oceanis would be in any better shape than, say, a 1995 Tartan 3500.  There are plenty of the latter for sale around the upper edge of your price range, and they're very well-made boats that will have much better fit-and-finish overall than the plastic fantastic boats (and likely better sailing performance).  Plus, big cockpits with lines led aft, and huge down below.

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1 hour ago, ChrisJD said:

I wouldn't take for granted that a 2004 Beneteau Oceanis would be in any better shape than, say, a 1995 Tartan 3500.  There are plenty of the latter for sale around the upper edge of your price range, and they're very well-made boats that will have much better fit-and-finish overall than the plastic fantastic boats (and likely better sailing performance).  Plus, big cockpits with lines led aft, and huge down below.

I'll second a recommendation for the Tartan double-ought series. They are super boats, easy to sail, good performance, with the added bonus of motoring easily, quite well proportioned and comfy below. I've had a number of friends with them and been very impressed.

FB- Doug

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On 8/22/2020 at 1:59 PM, loneshark64 said:

Yeah it’s another one of these stupid posts. But why not juuuust one more? I have a 1985 O’Day 28 which I bought to learn on. I could have afforded a lot more boat but the reason I could have afforded it is because I don’t throw money away. And I didn’t know what I didn’t know about owning my own boat. I like the boat and have learned a lot but I will upgrade in the next year or two. I am looking for suggestions on possible boats. 

Goals:

Day sailing, local cruising over nights, longer cruising 5-7 days. I will not go cruising for months as my wife doesn’t enjoy sailing and I like her. Not crossing any oceans. 

Conditions:
- I’m only 56 buy the body has taken a beating and two knee replacements have been the capper. I have a heart condition that is non life threatening now but I get tired and will need surgery in a few years. So ease of use is key.
- I need to be able to single hand all the time. Even when family are with me I need to be prepared to handle it all. 

- I don’t give a crap about racing other than watching others do it but I’d like to get another knot or two of boat speed beyond the 6.5 I get out of the ODay.

What I LOVE about the O’day: Masthead sloop. My Yanmar. Huge inside for a 28’ boat. Standing headroom. Goes upwind pretty damn well. Autopilot. Furling Genoa. Very sturdy & dry hull construction. Very good visibility. Not fussy in terms of how well the rig is tuned. I really like the way the boat it looks (I know purists think it’s a generic Chevrolet production boat but I think it is a nice looking boat).

What I HATE about the O’day:

- Cockpit is small And it’s a pain in the ass to get around the wheel especially to deal with the mainsail. I would like a more comfortable cockpit. 

- Rounds up. Nimble, but I don’t like on gusty days over 20 it can be a handful especially when I have nervous passengers. I don’t like fighting the rudder this much and it’s not my favorite thing to be messing with the mainsheet and/or traveler so often by myself.

- Only the main and boom vang are led aft so I have to go to the mast to reef and get the main up and down. I didn’t mind this on rented boats before (liked doing it actually) but with the knees now I get afraid.

- Doyle stack pack. I thought I would like this more than I do. It makes the sail cover easy but dicking around with the lines and having the battens catch in any kind of wind has gotten tedious. It does not just drop neatly into the sack like those nifty Doyle YouTube videos. So, I am thinking of pussying out and getting a furling main, but maybe not.

- Everything is old. I have learned a lot fixing things and it has been a joy really but on the next boat I do not want this much joy. I have rebuilt the head and all the hoses, replaced most of the wiring, rewired the AC power, replaced the batteries, shore charger, VHF, chart plotter, pumps, lines, bimini, on and on it goes. I am not close to being done. 

- Fit and finish inside. O’day made a sturdy boat but cut corners on the fit and finish. In this regard it actually is a Chevrolet. I would like something a bit “nicer” with a better galley and head that my wife would enjoy weekending on. 
 

Budget: I’m thinking $50-80k more or less ready to go, plus another $10-15k for new electronics and doo dads.
 

Things I’m looking at: 2000-2010 vintage. Maybe newer, certainly no older. Beneteau 323 or 343, Catalina 350 MKII, things like that. I am fine with production boats as I err on the side of solid reliable and I don’t want pretty wood topside. 
 

OK, have at it. (I appreciate all I have learned from you guys.)

Sir I appreciate your demeanor and tone

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On 8/25/2020 at 4:17 AM, loneshark64 said:

Thanks guys I will look at the nonesuch, tartan and Catalina 36. I could pay more for the right boat and perhaps I will but I’d like to keep it under 100 including the initial work after the purchase. 

Also, why not the Tartan 30? 

If you could find one that had really been babied you might be able to save a bundle -which you could put into hiring out anything extra it needed - and at 30' it's still plenty for a couple, while being that much easier to handle than a 35.

 

Just a thought.

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9 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

Thank you! Good of you to say. You might not have appreciated it yesterday when I was trying to dock ;-)

Sounds like it might not have been in evidence when you were trying to dock ;-)

 

 

(And if it was, good on you indeed)

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Adding to above:

I have a 27, and sympathize with wanting to upaize. The spirit of my earlier, though, was that I think a lot of folks who've learned on the zillions of cheap ~27ish boats out there underestimate the increase in complication and difficulty of systems on bigger boats.

For instance, I have self-tailers, but frankly if I needed to I could almost handle the lines by hand.

But even just going from 27 to 30, sail area increases by almost a third, and nearly doubles when you go to 35. And of course rig forces increase exponentially with area... So everything gets harder to handle, margins get smaller, and the odd whoopsy becomes that much harder to recover from, too. 

And of course, my 28 handles like a dhingy in the marina. Docking, anchoring, the odd accidental jibe - as you get into the 35 and up range, all of it seems to just go off the charts in terms of complication, risk, and the forces involved.

I'm sure you've thought about all of this, and everyone obviously finds their own sweet spot between comfort and simplicity.

Just my (additional two cents).

 

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11 hours ago, Breamerly said:

Adding to above:

I have a 27, and sympathize with wanting to upaize. The spirit of my earlier, though, was that I think a lot of folks who've learned on the zillions of cheap ~27ish boats out there underestimate the increase in complication and difficulty of systems on bigger boats.

For instance, I have self-tailers, but frankly if I needed to I could almost handle the lines by hand.

But even just going from 27 to 30, sail area increases by almost a third, and nearly doubles when you go to 35. And of course rig forces increase exponentially with area... So everything gets harder to handle, margins get smaller, and the odd whoopsy becomes that much harder to recover from, too. 

And of course, my 28 handles like a dhingy in the marina. Docking, anchoring, the odd accidental jibe - as you get into the 35 and up range, all of it seems to just go off the charts in terms of complication, risk, and the forces involved.

I'm sure you've thought about all of this, and everyone obviously finds their own sweet spot between comfort and simplicity.

Just my (additional two cents).

 

Yes I agree. Boats are tradeoffs. I do like with my O’day how it handles in tight spaces. I live up the Sheepscot river about 10 miles and when I am going out I often motor but i will sometimes sail it and tack 20 times for the workout and fun of it. I have sailed larger island packets and others and would not do the same in this river. But I think The overall utility and stability of a larger boat may be required. I will look at the tartan 30. I am looking at the 3500 as recommended above. It looks like a great boat, though the interior layout is not what I am used to at all and so I would have to see one in person.

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This thread reminds me a couple a knew a couple decades ago. They had a very nice, new or nearly new, Pearson 28-2 which they traded in for a well-worn 35-footer. When I commented on how much I liked the smaller boat, the woman said "you never had find places to stow everything."

 

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I moved up from a 30 to a 35 foot a few years ago and learned a bit. The bigger boat is easier to sail and use under power, this is secondary to it being a more modern design. The fortraingle on most newer boats is much smaller in-proportion to your old boat. This makes for simpler tacking, my working jib is a 110. One result is a bigger main, my boat has a tides marine sail track which allows me to raise the main over 1/2 way without a winch. I have never wanted a powered winch. Most newer boats have more waterline for their length, improving the ride and reducing the tendancy to round up.

Rudder design and the growing use of saildrives and feathering props has improved manuverablility, especially in reverse. Say what you want about maintenance issues with sail drives, having a boat that backs and turns like a mid size car is a great stress reducer. 

Cockpit ergonomics have come a long way, take a look at some of the French boats built in the last decade. Many are now set up to allow main and jib sheeting from the helm allowing our non sailing spouses to lounge forward unmolested. 

Some problems. Big mains make for big sail covers. This may push you to roller furling. I have sailed on a boat with a furling boom and liked it better than I thought I would, but they do have lots of moving parts. At least if something breaks you can still drop the sail and lash it down to the boom. The park avenue boom on Tartans may be a good compromise. The increase in freeboard on almost all newer boats is a real issue with docking. My dock now has  step ladders on many slips. This is ok at home, but not so good at a guest marina or picking up a mooring. Even many newer boats have crappy companionways, mine included. With bad knees look for stairs, not a ladder, with good hand holds.

A final note, I love Tartan 30s, having had one in the family for 20 years, it is not what you are looking for. 

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4 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

Yes I agree. Boats are tradeoffs. I do like with my O’day how it handles in tight spaces. I live up the Sheepscot river about 10 miles and when I am going out I often motor but i will sometimes sail it and tack 20 times for the workout and fun of it. I have sailed larger island packets and others and would not do the same in this river. But I think The overall utility and stability of a larger boat may be required. I will look at the tartan 30. I am looking at the 3500 as recommended above. It looks like a great boat, though the interior layout is not what I am used to at all and so I would have to see one in person.

There'a a lot of good boats around in the mid-30's. My parents, whom are also up near the top of the Sheepsquat just bought a pretty cherry Seasprite 34.  Slow, and actually a 27' boat hiding in a 34' boat, but perfectly sized for their use case.  Looks the part, too. 

My other comment would be that displacement, rather than boat length, is the real measure of size. Modern boats have a lot less displacement for a given length. 

Last week we had a: Cape Dory 27, A Tartan 30, a J46, a 40' something Nauticat-ish looking thing, a Steven 47 looking thing with full oxygen tent and a Tartan 41, all in the same harbor. The Tartan has a cool peapod that was at least 50% of the loa of the boat itself.  Clearly all very different types of cruising.  Only the small boats sailed on, and off anchor (and us). 

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47 minutes ago, steele said:

allowing our non sailing spouses to lounge forward unmolested. 

I will use this argument to justify the next boat purchase to my wife. “Honey, I’m buying this one so you won’t be molested.” I’ll let you know how that goes ;-)

 

kidding aside your post was full of helpful info.

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3 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

This thread reminds me a couple a knew a couple decades ago. They had a very nice, new or nearly new, Pearson 28-2 which they traded in for a well-worn 35-footer. When I commented on how much I liked the smaller boat, the woman said "you never had find places to stow everything."

 

Very true, like my 28, good for an overnight but has no storage. I think some of these interior layouts were designed for boat shows. Yes you could sleep 6 people in it, but (a) you never will, (b) if each of them brings a toothbrush you’re basically screwed, and (c) four in the cockpit is like the fifth circle of hell.

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In all seriousness though, I am learning a lot from this thread. Very interesting to hear about waterline, displacement, fore tri, etc - all stuff I wouldn't ever know standing outside the castle staring in

Peasant 1: 'nice castle, that'

Peasant 2: 'probably bloody cold though, and look - no windows!' The king's probably jealous of us, or at least he should be'

King, fondling supermodel wife on bearskin in front of fire made of $100 bills: 'yes, cold, and so jealous'

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On 8/24/2020 at 4:36 PM, ChrisJD said:

I wouldn't take for granted that a 2004 Beneteau Oceanis would be in any better shape than, say, a 1995 Tartan 3500.  There are plenty of the latter for sale around the upper edge of your price range, and they're very well-made boats that will have much better fit-and-finish overall than the plastic fantastic boats (and likely better sailing performance).  Plus, big cockpits with lines led aft, and huge down below.

+1 on the Oceanis boats. They sail well, are well laid out, and like you said - newer is much less hassle.

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  • 2 months later...
If you have not located a boat, I have a suggestion and it is my 1988 Freedom 36. Not listed yet but coming soon at about $90k with no major upgrades needed.
 
It meets your goals and conditions, in your own words:

 

  • Easy to sail with self tacking jib and spinnaker in ATN snuffer
  • Single handing is super easy. We had some "never ever" friends on board and the husband confided he could not help me sail the boat and I replied "its OK, I can sail her by myself" (which I have done)
  • The Freedom 36 is a cruiser, not a racer but sails surprisingly well. As a former J-boat owner I have a pretty high standard.
  • The boat is a cat sloop, with a reliable Yanmar, also huge inside for a 36’ boat. Standing headroom is great. She goes upwind pretty damn well. Autopilot. Furling Jib. Very sturdy & dry hull construction. Very good visibility. Not fussy in terms of how well the rig is tuned (since there is no standing rigging). It is a nice looking boat and it was in fresh water for many years so she doesn't smell bad! Electric head with freshwater flush helps in this regard.

As opposed to your O’day:

  • Cockpit is large and comfortable 
  • Does not round up. Very stiff with unstayed rig. Top of main twists off when overpowered. No fighting the rudder. Mainsheet and traveler are run from the cockpit (as are ALL lines: 10 clutches feeding lines to two winches).
  • No going to the mast to reef and get the main up and down. Everything runs to the pit on forward starboard side of cockpit. 
  • No stack pack. We have a 2020 Neil Pryde fully-battened main that drops into 5-leg lazy jacks and a classic mainsail cover.
  • Not everything is old. Previously mentioned head is great; batteries and charger and chart plotter and radar and instruments are <4 years old
  • 3-blade feathering Max Prop means great performance under sail and real reverse and good punch in choppy seas
  • Dodger is old and admittedly needs replacement
  • Fit and finish inside are very nice with a galley and head that your wife would enjoy weekending on. 

The boat would hit your budget since you would not need new electronics etc.

The boat is older than the vintage you were looking at, but much better than Beneteau or Catalina production boats. There is a limited amount of pretty wood topside, which we have maintained with Bristol Finish. The teak hand rails on the coach roof are too hard to keep bright so we have stripped them and keep them oiled. 

Let me know if you have any interest! We just hauled the boat for the winter and she is located in Atlantic Highlands, NJ.

Robert  

F36 select photos.pdf

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Freedom 30. You can even singlehand with the little self tending spin. Biggest interior of any 30ft bao3t ive ever seen.

It wont be a knot or two faster than your current boat. Have to go for the freedom 36. Still easy to singlehand, thkugh getting the huge main up by yourself can be a chore. 

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8 hours ago, Kolibri said:

Buy a well maintained Cape Dory in your price range. They were well built and if it was maintained your headaches should be minimal. 

Thanks I like Cape Dorys a lot. If I can find a Robinhood 36 when it’s time I *might*. But probably not. I don’t want an older boat again. 15 years old is the max. And I do like going up wind so I’m not sure the long keel is right for me.

Here is the list as it stands...

Beneteau Oceanis 343
Catalina 36 MKII
Catalina 350 MKII 
Tartan 3500
Tartan 37

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I would also consider a Sabre 36, CS36 (older but well built) and the Freedom recommendation is a good one.  
if you can stretch your budget a bit, a Tartan 3400 could be a great boat for you.  Large cockpit, self tacking jib and a park Avenue boom.  We had one and it was a good boat.  We had the centerboard version and it was a bit heavy, but other than that a nice boat.  

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Why not older? A 1980's Sabre can be had fairly cheap, and is much better built than most new boats. Same with the CS36.

I would look for a boat where the designer first designed a good sailing boat, well behaved, fun to sail. Then he put in the accommodations the hull shape and volume would allow. 

Things to look for:

A good spray dodger

Cockpit seats you or the wife can lounge on to read

A cabintop that is comfy to lean back against with a cushion for reading

Condition of interior cushions. On many newer boat these are thin crap. On many older boats they are past their use by date. Good ones are expensive.

Cleanliness of the motor area and bilges. A clean, tidy motor area and bilges are indicative of good ownership

I would always rather have a stick built boat than a liner type. 

In Maine, I would look for a boat that has had indoor storage. It indicates whether or not the boat was loved. Loved boats have had money spent in ways you may not see now, but which you will appreciate later.

Look for good housekeeping. Does the emergency tiller have the deck plate key to access the head of the rudder stock attached? Are there soft wood plugs attached to each throughhull/

Dorades. You live in Maine. There is weather there. There is no real ventilation substitute for Dorade boxes. For Maine, if a boat does not have dorades, I would reject it out of hand. At anchor in hard rain, they make the interior liveable.

It is ideal to have one Dorade dedicated to the head compartment, and to have a latch on the head door to fix it slightly ajar so that there is always fresh air flowing through this compartment.

If the boat is nice, clean, smells fresh, and is comfy, who knows? Your wife may, like mine, decide that she is not really a sailor, but that she enjoys being on the boat with you, likes that it is a fine place to read, comes with nice views, and can even be fun given your impressive sailing skills.

You're in Maine. It's not far and costs nothing to go look at this. 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/sabre-sabre-38-3656301/

  

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12 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Why not older?

This is good. There's old boats that have been well cared for, treasured even, and then there are old boats that have been neglected. I wouldn't rule out boats over 10 or 15 years old. 

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14 minutes ago, Bull City said:

This is good. There's old boats that have been well cared for, treasured even, and then there are old boats that have been neglected. I wouldn't rule out boats over 10 or 15 years old. 

Bull, when I donated my 1985 Hinckley SW-42 to Maine Maritime, word among my friends went out pretty quickly. A prominent DC neurosurgeon dallied a weekend and missed. The boat was taken by a well known yacht broker who works for, wait for it ------- Hinckley. The broker made a fast deal, as MMA wasn't expecting 3-4 calls about a boat where the papers had just been signed. 

This guy knows boats, prior to joining Hinckley he had specialized in selling Little Harbor, Hinckley, Lyman-Morse and Cambria boats. The age of Sparky didn't matter to him. He knew of me by reputation, knew people who had sailed offshore with me on the boat, knew my obsession with maintenance. He also knows how to inspect a boat, what to look for. 

This is now HIS beloved family boat, with 2 young kids. I couldn't be happier. 

People who know boats would often prefer a well maintained, pedigreed, older boat to a newer lesser something. Less face it, @Kris Cringle ain't no fool. How old is his boat?

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Yeah I get it I understand all the arguments for older boats. I have a 35 yo boat now. I have had late 70s boats. I have not had a newer boat and that’s what I am going to do on the next one. That’s my criteria. I would like to get a boat I can sail happily for the next 20 years and I don’t want to be in a 60 year old boat at that point. I want a well appointed interior that the family will like more, without having to do a massive interior refit. I don’t want to spend a penny on the interior, refrigerator, modern head, any of that. I just spent a ton (again) over a couple of years getting an old boat up to snuff, and at the end of the day it’s still 35 years old. I appreciate the feedback. But it’s odd how on here you say you want a sloop from 2000 or later and people start talking about 1980 and catamarans, no offense.

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Because a lot of newer boats are built like shit with poorly installed systems.

Good luck with your search.

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36 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

But it’s odd how on here you say you want a sloop from 2000 or later and people start talking about 1980 and catamarans, no offense.

:lol:

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Because a lot of newer boats are built like shit with poorly installed systems.

Good luck with your search.

Yeah those are the ones I am not considering. Some newer boats do in fact float and sail beyond the horizon though. Strange as that may seem.

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27 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

Yeah those are the ones I am not considering. Some newer boats do in fact float and sail beyond the horizon though. Strange as that may seem.

Hallberg Rassy would be a good way to go. 

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On 11/2/2020 at 5:07 PM, RobertNJ said:
If you have not located a boat, I have a suggestion and it is my 1988 Freedom 36. Not listed yet but coming soon at about $90k with no major upgrades needed....
 

I couldn't recall the F-36 so went looking for it on the interwebs. Found one on sailboatlistings.com that sounds like an absolute party palace!

"-3 cabins spacious main, V berth, aft berth sleeps 7"

Can you imagine an after berth that sleeps 7!:P  (Oh to be 22 again!)

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