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70' Cruising Proa....Big Red Yacht


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Currently cruising in my area is a 70' Pacific Proa called Big Red Yacht, formerly named Gaia's Dream. Watched them crossing the bay for a while hoping to see a shunt but they kept going towards the islands. The boat is fast.

The original rig had a mast that shifted fore and aft for each shunt, but the designer changed it to a fixed mast. Current owner is happy with the boat.

Google Gaia's Dream Proa for the interesting history of the design and build. Intended to carry 5+ tons of cargo, plywood build. After completing the boat, designer Ini Wijnen had a major life change and is now Yvette.

Go to Big Red Yacht on FB to see what the new owners are up to.

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This thread has gone the way I thought it would. Rob is going to bash it over the head with his vindictive form of logic, but for what purpose? He's quoting things that I didn't write, some that were

It's happened one time in 10K miles of sailing Jzerro and this was due to an abrupt wind shift under a rain shower in the Gulf while sailing to Cuba.  I dropped the jib, lowered both rudders and put t

I'd rather you went away. I don't see the benefit to you of an ongoing public, lie-strewn war and it's embarrassing to me. Without you, Rob I wouldn't get the hairy eyeball on these forums. I'm not se

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Watched it sail on Pittwater, Sydney NSW in the past.  Yes it was fast, as you'd expect from a big boat, but shunting took forever and tacking angles were BIG numbers,  so my guess is that if they kept going towards the islands, that might just be a case of "cast my fate to the winds" rather than a considered choice?

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New owner has sailed up the East coast from Sydney, hasn't reported problems with shunting. The boat is intended for medical missions to the Louisiades, but the Covid has stalled that for the time being.

They pulled into the fuel dock in the marina and answered another proa question: Tied up with the small hull dockside, big hull outboard.

 

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1 hour ago, Happy said:

New owner has sailed up the East coast from Sydney, hasn't reported problems with shunting. The boat is intended for medical missions to the Louisiades, but the Covid has stalled that for the time being.

They pulled into the fuel dock in the marina and answered another proa question: Tied up with the small hull dockside, big hull outboard.

I have a friend who is an eye surgeon and does a lot of pro bon work around FIji and Tuvalu. He has been talking about a big multihull to get his kit across and move around the islands for years. I sent him details of Gaia’s Dream when it came up on the market.

Glad to see it is still sailing and being put to good use.

I tie up my boat the same way:

B5111C18-340B-49D6-9B56-4B6DC51D134B.jpeg

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I just don't get it, I never have and just can't be convinced ..... I'm into bikes and It's a bit like Harley's.. they aren't efficient as bikes but many get sold .....  I'm just happy others are into weird shit I guess
To each their own

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4 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

 .....  I'm just happy others are into weird shit I guess
To each their own

Not really weird or shit, just different from what you're used to.

Back in the very early 70's, my Wharram cat was considered weird shit. 

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19 minutes ago, Happy said:

Not really weird or shit, just different from what you're used to.

Back in the very early 70's, my Wharram cat was considered weird shit. 

It also depends on what metrics you measure efficiency by as well....... Best quote is from this proa designer/owner::

“For me proas represent an alternate reality to mainstream sailing. They trade transverse symmetry for fore & aft symmetry and in doing so enter a different world of possibilities and constraints." - Paul Bieker. (Naval architect and engineering, member of Team Oracle USA.)

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12 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I just don't get it, I never have and just can't be convinced ..... I'm into bikes and It's a bit like Harley's.. they aren't efficient as bikes but many get sold .....  I'm just happy others are into weird shit I guess
To each their own

No one is trying to convince you, but as far as efficiency, a good proa is the ultimate sailing machine. As a concept they are about as far from a Harley as you can get. Not all of them look like a football either.

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6 hours ago, Happy said:

Google and FB info in post#1.

I really don't understand why people say "Google it" instead of providing links?  It's really not that hard and keeps everyone on the same page, so to speak.

http://iniwijnen.com/gaiasdream/

https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/proa-pacific-proa-71-sustainable-eco-friendly-renewable-energy-sailing/243009

 

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On 8/27/2020 at 5:39 PM, Sidecar said:

I have a friend who is an eye surgeon and does a lot of pro bon work around FIji and Tuvalu. He has been talking about a big multihull to get his kit across and move around the islands for years. I sent him details of Gaia’s Dream when it came up on the market.

Glad to see it is still sailing and being put to good use.

I tie up my boat the same way:

B5111C18-340B-49D6-9B56-4B6DC51D134B.jpeg

 

Is there a reason other than hatch/companion faces that way and not stepping over the sail? 

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23 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

Is there a reason other than hatch/companion faces that way and not stepping over the sail? 

Less height difference so easier to get on and off, and If there is a leeward "pod" on the main hull, it would hang over the dock.

For example, this is a 32 foot Pacific proa by Paul Bieker with a leeward pod:

79089524_32proaP6pic8b.thumb.jpeg.5e91b9ec9aa4c5bd6e8a424826895b33.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Dex Sawash said:

Is there a reason other than hatch/companion faces that way and not stepping over the sail? 

What Proa said...... My ama deck is more or less level with the pontoon, so I usually step straight up onto the wing deck.  Leeward pod is less pronounced and full hull length compared to Jester above, and Russell’s proas, and it has a splay down to waterline in the middle, so hard to fend off alongside a pontoon.

When I come alongside other boats, I tie up other way round as the main hull foredecks are more or less level with most other local boat’s  gunwhales.  

2D629BC9-568C-433F-8DE2-BE1D8EB58C97.jpeg

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On 8/27/2020 at 7:03 PM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I just don't get it, I never have and just can't be convinced ..... I'm into bikes and It's a bit like Harley's.. they aren't efficient as bikes but many get sold .....  I'm just happy others are into weird shit I guess
To each their own

Try a turn-of-the-century Buell... and suddenly Harleys make sense. :p Big, long-throw EVO with better breathing, effective vibration dampening (well, at least above 2500 rpms), all wrapped up in a sport/touring bike and kept under 600 lbs. It makes kinetic sense in practice, in spite of appearances... I suspect proas are the same: ignore what tradition says "makes sense" and they it yourself.

You just might be surprised. Weird shit can be that way.

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44 minutes ago, randii said:

Try a turn-of-the-century Buell... and suddenly Harleys make sense.

Wait, are you comparing proas to Harleys?   That would be an insult!  Other than Erik Buell (born in 1950) being an ex-Harley-Davidson engineer and Harley-Davidson eventually buying his company (before discontinuing the Buell product line in 2009 as part of its strategy to focus on the Harley-Davidson brand), Buel and Harley motorcycles are very different beasts, eh?

1 hour ago, randii said:

You just might be surprised. Weird shit can be that way.

Yeah, the road less traveled...

the_road_not_taken.thumb.png.5ea006d5f5c7feb056788a6232930b0f.png

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On 8/29/2020 at 5:23 PM, Sidecar said:

What Proa said...... My ama deck is more or less level with the pontoon, so I usually step straight up onto the wing deck.  Leeward pod is less pronounced and full hull length compared to Jester above, and Russell’s proas, and it has a splay down to waterline in the middle, so hard to fend off alongside a pontoon.

When I come alongside other boats, I tie up other way round as the main hull foredecks are more or less level with most other local boat’s  gunwhales.  

2D629BC9-568C-433F-8DE2-BE1D8EB58C97.jpeg

And here I was thinking it was to save on dock fees, since the windward hull is shorter.

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On 8/29/2020 at 5:23 PM, Sidecar said:

 

2D629BC9-568C-433F-8DE2-BE1D8EB58C97.jpeg

OK, that is incredibly neat, but looking at that photo, I can't tell what the heck is going on with the rig, foils, etc.  I am guessing from the little bit of wake there is (doesn't disturb the water much, that it is going in the direction you are facing, which would put the ama(?) to windward?  Is there a good video out there showing these boats actually sailing and doing their thing to go upwind?  Consider me very uneducated on the subject.

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Thanks....almost more confused.  I could not find anywhere that you "tacked"?  It looked like in one that you had a jib hanked on the stay at what was currently the aft end of the boat.  Do you keep the outrigger to windward at all times, lower one jib, let the boom and mast swing around, raise the other jib and set the other rudder?  Short "tacking", do you just not use the jibs?  Is the mast only stayed to the outrigger?  If so, I imagine it would be a no-no to back wind it.

Found the video for "Cheers" and it looked like they kept the outrigger to leeward all the time with semi free standing spars.  If I had to guess I would have thought that would be the way to go.  Then the video for "Madness" which appeared to be arranged as "Jzerro", but again, they did not show the boat tacking.   

Am I guessing correctly on the maneuver to go through the wind?  What is the advantage/disadvantage of having the outrigger to leeward or windward?  Sorry for the stupid questions.  I am sure these are the normal idiotic questions you have answered thousands of times.

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Cheers is an atlantic style weight to windward proa, jezzero is a pacific style weight to leeward design.

hmm, wonder if Atlantic style proas Like cheers tie up with the big hull towards the dock...

Rob denny's  proas are sort of between the two

2b

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JZERRO is not my boat, I've never owned a proa.  Your description of the tacking/shunting procedure is basically correct.  The mast is to windward of the main hull so is stayed to leeward by the two headstays carrying the jibs.  JZERRO is a Pacific proa, CHEERS is an "Atlantic proa" (non-traditional).  I explained the difference as best I could here:

Why not keep the heavy hull to windward?
http://pacificproa.com/faq.html#WTW

Keeping the smaller, lighter hull to windward is a difficult concept for many people to understand, even though it was pretty obvious to ancient Micronesians who invented the concept.  It doesn't require two full length hulls, each capable of carrying 100% of the boat's displacement.  So you get a longer main hull for the same total weight as a shorter catamaran (or Atlantic proa).  The windward hull is like floating ballast.  As it lifts to skim or clear the water, the longer, bigger and heavier main hull carries all the weight, as it alone is designed to do.  It's a balancing act that is amazing when it's done right.

marshall_isles_proas_1000.thumb.jpg.ccc5270186c8fe625d6e0d5ca41429f2.jpg

Large version of that image (2864 X 2200 pixels, 1.5 Mbytes): http://pacificproa.com/micronesia/marshall_isles_proas_lg.jpg

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11 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Thanks!  Interesting boats.  They do look like they move really well with little effort.

They do...... That is largely the point about them. For any given displacement they are very efficient and economic.

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Funny thought, I don't recall how many times I've seen someone comment on Jzerro being a problem when back winded, lots and lots, but I've never seen the same comment made about Cheers where it was a serious problem as it could, and occasionally did,  lead to a capsize.

I suspect the reason that you don't see a lot of shunting videos is because the process of shunting is, well, boring... Unlike tacking where sails are flogging and you HAVE to get through the wind, most of the time you could take a tea break at any given point in the process of shunting without doing anything but making it take a bit longer, yawn, this video illustrates the point rather well, for those that are having trouble staying awake skip ahead to 2:40

 

There's been a lot of hype and a fair amount of drama over proas on the net, they really seem to strike a spark with some people. but the the thing I find most interesting is how the islanders took building materials that'd make a European shipbuilder throw up his hands in disgust and developed the technology to build boats that could literally sail circles around the European ships

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43 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

I suspect the reason that you don't see a lot of shunting videos is because the process of shunting is, well, boring... Unlike tacking where sails are flogging and you HAVE to get through the wind, most of the time you could take a tea break at any given point in the process of shunting without doing anything but making it take a bit longer,

Well said.  More examples of proa tacking/shunting:

 

 

 

A leisurely shunt on Kauri begins around 0:50 in this one, using only one jib that had to be moved to the other end.  I was running the camera and regret turning away at one point and missing some of it.  1987?  Overloaded with eight people aboard and carrying Ocean Surfer's broken wing mast (yard accident) back to Dick Newick's shop on Martha's Vineyard.

 

Oh, one more, the primary subject of this thread: Gaiasdream shunting.  Not too bad considering the base of the mast is shifted.

 

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3 hours ago, TwoBirds said:

Funny thought, I don't recall how many times I've seen someone comment on Jzerro being a problem when back winded, lots and lots,

Jzerro never really did have problem with being backwinded. Just lots of commenting.

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Is backwinding a serious problem for any of the modern pacific proas? In the traditionally built proas with their crabclaws and canting masts the whole rig could blow over if backwinded, but all the modern proas seem to have designed around the problem. 

I've been backwinded a few times in my Wa'apa and it hasn't been any kind of problem or taken more than about 7 seconds to put right.
I could see needing to avoid being backwinded adding extra complication to the process of  beating off a lee shore, but other than that...

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I have had only one memorable backwinding which happened while I was asleep. I woke to a lot of wind and the main against the back stay. The main came down, the jib went up and away we went.

Please don't encourage you-know-who to rail against all who don't believe in the true path in proas.  

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On 8/30/2020 at 10:06 AM, ProaSailor said:

Wait, are you comparing proas to Harleys? 

Definitely not. I was commenting on another post that wondered about Harleys. Honestly, HDs don't generally make much sense to me, but to each their own, and I'm glad there are choices.

Now cut an EVO motor out, give it some top-end work, and run it in a Buell tube frame and that Harley motor starts making sense to me. I've not straddled a later-model Buell, so I can't comment on how those work, just my Thunderbolt. The engineering looks tops, though!

Nothing to do with proas, really... but I like that there are choices there in boats as well as bikes.

BTW, I'm a fan of roads less travelled, too.

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On 9/2/2020 at 10:04 PM, Russell Brown said:

I have had only one memorable backwinding which happened while I was asleep. I woke to a lot of wind and the main against the back stay. The main came down, the jib went up and away we went.

It's happened one time in 10K miles of sailing Jzerro and this was due to an abrupt wind shift under a rain shower in the Gulf while sailing to Cuba.  I dropped the jib, lowered both rudders and put them hard over to tighten the turning radius.  Then I wound the mainsail to the other bow and Jzerro started moving "backwards" until she essentially gybed back onto the correct orientation and we were off again.  It was a low stress event that was quick to sort out.  

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Much depends on the rig and rudder set up. I get backwinded occasionally due to the sudden geographically induced wind changes in the Sound and Norfolk Bay, especially when it is really light.

When caught aback and pinned, I start to shunt and steer the boat ASAP “backwards” into a normal wind abeam situation, ie a half shunt, whilst deciding whether to complete a shunt on the other (lifted) tack or sheet in again and head up to somewhere near the original heading again..... I have a club footed windward jib so no foresail dropping or furling/unfurling involved, which makes it pretty easy. The new reversible rudders being built should make It easier still.

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Rob Denney tried to convince me to build a proa years ago, but the very idea hurt my symmetrical brain.

I think they're interesting, but they are not for me.

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Gary anchored outside our place for a few days on his way north, then he and his crew dropped into the shed for a very interesting discussion about proas, servicing the remote Pacific and survey requirements.  Nice people, a cool boat and excellent intentions, but lacking cash to implement them.  See their FaceBook page to donate to a worthy cause.  

Sidecar,

Great that the boat is sailing.  Well done.  If the new rudders have carbon in them, we have found the cheapest material is pultruded strips (70% carbon, 1.2mm x 50mm).  I have a couple of rolls, let me know if you want some.  

Recidivist,

If you are in Qld or can get here after the borders open, come for a sail and we'll see if we can sort your brain out.   ;-)  You too, Pil.

Two Birds,

Not sure 'modern proas have designed around getting caught aback' if all you have to do is "drop the main (which is held hard against the backstay), raise the jib and sail away"  Piece of cake at 2 am in a rain squall.   They definitely have not designed around accidentally gybing in a breeze.  This is an accepted risk for a racer, but not much fun for a cruiser.     

Staying angles and backstay arrangements that are unacceptable on other boats are not likely to be acceptable on caught aback or gybing proas.   A better solution is an unstayed mast(s), no headsails (which don't make much sense on a proa anyway as demonstrated in the shunting videos above) and the main sheet(s) lead directly to the windward hull.   

Russ,

Which of the attached "You Know Whos" were you referring to?  Old articles, but the rigs (and problems) are still the same.

Russ Crusing World 1.jpg

Russ Wooden Boat.jpeg

Russ Crusing World 2.jpg

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How did you like the Gibbons KONeill? I'd like to try one, but only if the water's warm :)

Is there a build thread somewhere for Sidecar? I tried googling but all that came up was motorcycles. It looks like Gais Dream has a windward staysail too, I haven't been able to find any footage of it in use, maybe a downwind sail?

Proas are symmetrical, well except  "Tacking Proas".

I dunno Rob, my wa'apa is rigged the way you describe although I use an aero-junk instead of a blaestrom rig, no head sail or standing rigging, and I'm seriously considering adding backstays just to catch the sail when it gybes because it sweeps right across the entire tramp and I'm too fat and old to be ducking :)

I'm no expert, heck, most folks on this forum have forgotten more about boats than I'll ever know so I'm having trouble getting my head around your assertion that standing rigging isn't appropriate for proas.
When I first read about proas the thing that really jumped out at me is that the main doesn't have to pass beneath the back stay so you could in theory fully stay virtually any rig, not just that but with their wide staying angles proas have far less mast compression to boot.
then you add in the fact that the back stays lift any ballast in the ama so there's no need to beef up the crossbeams to carry the extra load while protecting the passengers and crew from being swept off the tramp by an unexpected gybe and it just seems like proas and standing rigging are a match made in heaven.

2b

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This thread has gone the way I thought it would. Rob is going to bash it over the head with his vindictive form of logic, but for what purpose? He's quoting things that I didn't write, some that were written more than 35 years ago, while things that he wrote, like how his boats were half the cost and weight and faster than anything ever created have never been questioned. There is still no evidence (after at least two decades of him bashing Pacific proas and especially my boats) that his Harry proas live up to the hype. There have been none raced successfully as far as I know, there are no videos of them sailing upwind fast, steering downwind in breeze, or performing well at all, nor is there any positive testimony from his clients about the sailing qualities of his boats. He had bashed my boats and made wild claims about his boats for over a decade before I ever questioned his logic publicly. Make your own decision about what he's selling. I have never sold proa designs, so why I am a threat is a mystery. Proas are one of the few things I can speak with authority about and I say that misinformation and misrepresentation is bullshit!

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On 9/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, TwoBirds said:

How did you like the Gibbons KONeill? I'd like to try one, but only if the water's warm :)

It was interesting :)

I was on the yahoo proa list with Gary Dierking years ago, when he was first developing it. I built a smaller one:

http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/oldproa7.jpg

It worked fine, but I never sailed it in over twelve knots or so. The shape was not great due to it being cut from an old jib, but aside from that I really liked it. So when winter set in I decided to go full-on idiot and make a big one:

http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/messabout2003-5.jpg

The spar is two carbon windsurfer masts joined butt to butt. The sail is some kind of laminate I got on sale, very stiff but a pain in the ass to try to sew. I put a big pocket on the luff and had a 6:1 line inside the pocket to prebend the spar.

It was unbeatable in light air. The boat had very little wetted surface, the sail was super powerful, in 5 mph it was awesome. I once sailed right past a fleet of Lasers on a windward leg, I was laying on my tramp and just blew by them pointing higher and going faster. Very amusing.

In 5-10 it was a handful. You could do it, but it was a handful.

Over 10 knots of wind and it was homicidal. It was a menace. A powered up 180 sq ft sail swinging around over your head in 15 knots of wind is really quite something. It had a lot of power, there was no "off" switch, and shunting it was a freakin' menace. Once on a big lake the wind picked up and I sailed ten miles across the lake, beached, shunted the sail on the beach, and sailed ten miles back rather than shunt it in the water in a lot of wind.

None of which, by the way, is a criticism of Gary's designs. His boats work fine, I've been told by both him and other people who have sailed them. I just took it a bit far :)

In particular the large prebend in the spar seemed like a good idea, but it meant that the shunting lines on each end of the spar acted kind of like sheets. The pulled the end of the yard down, but they also pulled the boom down some since the prebend put them 18" behind the axis of rotation. All of which meant that the sail was never depowered. It was pulling like mad the whole time you were shunting. On my original sail I had far less prebend and far less problem shunting the boat.

In the end I switched to a schooner:

http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/1213849692/proa on beach after T200.jpg

Which suits the boat so well I'd never consider going back to anything else. Easy to control, easy to shunt, easy to reef, totally under control even in a lot of wind. We took the boat on two Texas 200 cruises ten years ago and saw 30 knots of wind more than once, and it was fine. It was fun! It's now a great boat in a lot of wind, it's easier to shunt that boat than it is to tack a Hobie 16 in a lot of wind.

Anyway, there you go, that's more than you ever wanted to know about a weirdo little boat in Texas.

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Have you ever tried using a (adjustable) strop between the boom ends? It would save at least one set of mainsheets?

You control both sails with the aft sheet, shunt both sails at the same time with only one sheet and geometry means the front sail should draw first, to help keep the bow off the wind until you have speed up?

You can still adjust the slot or dump the front sail independently by adjusting or releasing the strop? Use one of the spare mainsheets to set up the strop and run it back to each mast....?

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On 9/7/2020 at 3:53 AM, TwoBirds said:

It looks like Gais Dream has a windward staysail too, I haven't been able to find any footage of it in use, maybe a downwind sail?

 Gaia could have. I hadn’t noticed...

Any proa can put up a windward staysail. It is extra sail area downwind, especially effective (near) DDW. It can also be used upwind, because it creates/increases positive stagger on the leeward sails as well as extra area. It does provide a little more lee helm, but not as much as flying an extra jib off the bow.  A small very low CE windward staysail can create a righting moment or very little heeling moment, so potential useful as a heavy weather sail.

Fritz Roth, and Col Gifford/John Pizzey have also played around with them.

http://proadesign.com/

https://proafile.com/multihull-boats/article/the-proas-of-john-pizzey-part-1

I also used it to keep mast size, weight and cost down, minimise shunt manoeuvres and times, to put the sail weight, with all its bits and pieces in the most useful place and to avoid ever having to go onto the bows for a sail change.

074F90BF-F964-4F15-BAA7-8CA053DFF652.jpeg

928DD756-2121-42ED-B16A-02F4478C1C87.jpeg

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21 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Have you ever tried using a (adjustable) strop between the boom ends? It would save at least one set of mainsheets?

You control both sails with the aft sheet, shunt both sails at the same time with only one sheet and geometry means the front sail should draw first, to help keep the bow off the wind until you have speed up?

You can still adjust the slot or dump the front sail independently by adjusting or releasing the strop? Use one of the spare mainsheets to set up the strop and run it back to each mast....?

I should add, by way of explanation, that if the strop length is the same as the distance between masts, then it is a parallelogram, and both boom angles will be the same. Make it less, then you get the shunting scenario described above. Make it more after shunting, and you revert to the usual situation where the aft sail is sheeted in more than the forward one...

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22 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Have you ever tried using a (adjustable) strop between the boom ends? It would save at least one set of mainsheets?

I like the separate sheets. I sheet in the front sail first and the boat is really well balanced, then sheet in the aft sail as you start to move and the rudder bites. It has a 5' leeboard that dominates the CLR if it's down, and in that case the CLR is right in the middle of the boat and you can sheet in both at the same time, but if you're just reaching around with the board up the CLR is way forward when you start to move and you really need to sheet in the front sail first. In a lot of wind with the board up if you just pull in both sheets the boat has a lot of weather helm and will head up really aggressively. It's kind of like a Hobie 16, where you have to sheet in the jib first to get the boat moving, then bring on the main as the rudder bites.

In the latest iteration I had all four sheets running to cam cleats in the middle of the boat so you could grab both sheets at once and pull if you wanted to, or just pull on one.

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 it looks like if you set that big gibbons just right you could get airborne KONeill, glad you took the time to tell about it, if I had a motto it'd be "Anything worth doing is worth over doing" so you've saved me from making the same mistake.

I built My Wa'apa  from Garys Dierkings book "Building Outrigger Canoes", really good book, he's a talented author as well as a designer, he makes it all seem so interesting and do-able that I have to talk myself out of building a T2 about once a week :)  I'd like to try his "Tacking Crabclaw" rig too.

I think I'll probably end up with a schooner rig if I build the middle section of my wa'apa as I don't really want to step a bigger mast solo and it seems like it'd be an easy way to balance the boat between shunts, at the moment I'm using a sliding ogive leeboard on the ama to shift the balance and it works quite well, also works well for minor course corrections and makes a half decent auto pilot.

Thanks for the links Sidecar, one of the reasons I went with the aerojunk was to have a jib without ever needing to go to the very fine bows of my wa'apa to deal with it so I'll be taking a close look at windward stay sails, lots of other great stuff there too.

 

2b

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it would be great if you and KONeill posted photos of what you are up to. It seems like there is a lot going on with proas that no one knows about.  A Bieker proa is underway in Europe and the 24 footer that Paul and I did has been lengthened and will be sailing again in the spring. Photo from Bermuda.

20160529_131448_001.jpeg

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I'd love to post pictures Russel but the board always says they're too big, I even cropped one down to 56k and the board wouldn't take it.

is that the proa built for the  R2AK  and couldn't keep the ama in the water a couple years back? Can't recall the team name, just that at the time I thought it would be a better name for a girls gone wild video, wet n' wild maybe?

 

2b

 

Just realized I got the title of Gary Dierkings book wrong, it's "Building Outrigger Sailing Canoes"

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21 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

is that the proa built for the  R2AK  and couldn't keep the ama in the water a couple years back? Can't recall the team name, just that at the time I thought it would be a better name for a girls gone wild video, wet n' wild maybe?

"Team Pure and Wild".  What a disaster.  Too small (only 24 feet) and then overloaded with three guys for crew (plus provisions for a week?).

the-team-prepping.jpg.0c4110be79b5e7d1924847c4a26d90d2.jpg

from https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/looking-for-info-on-this-boat.59334/

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1 hour ago, TwoBirds said:

I'd love to post pictures Russel but the board always says they're too big, I even cropped one down to 56k and the board wouldn't take it.

 

 

Take that url you cut up there^ and paste it into a forum post. The forum will display the image no matter the upload resolution because the image is hosted elsewhere. You can choose the resolution when you upload if for some reason you want to go low res ( maybe a bollock dangling from your/her shorts?).

Other image hosting services work similarly. Imgur is a big one but their TOS prohibit inline image linking (they don't block it but may someday)

EDIT- PASTE URL INTO BODY OF FORUM POST, DON'T USE IMAGE UPLOAD TOOL OR BBCODE TAGS

Edited by Dex Sawash
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1 hour ago, TwoBirds said:

I'd love to post pictures Russel but the board always says they're too big, I even cropped one down to 56k and the board wouldn't take it.

You're doing something wrong.  You can upload images to SA that are far bigger than 56K.  Images hosted  at SA instead of elsewhere are less likely to disappear if/when a photo hosting site changes it's policies, as DropBox once did with their '/public' folders.  Try again.

P.S.  When I am in the SA post editor, it says "Max total size 9.77MB" (per post):

img_upload.thumb.png.efcfbc6ebf18e1743c5049e45a62ce28.png

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1 hour ago, TwoBirds said:

I'd love to post pictures Russel but the board always says they're too big, I even cropped one down to 56k and the board wouldn't take it.

is that the proa built for the  R2AK  and couldn't keep the ama in the water a couple years back? Can't recall the team name, just that at the time I thought it would be a better name for a girls gone wild video, wet n' wild maybe?

 

2b

 

Just realized I got the title of Gary Dierkings book wrong, it's "Building Outrigger Sailing Canoes"

Pure and Wild is a seafood company that sponsored them. That boat was far too small for two big guys and all the shit they brought and it had lots of teething issues. I export photos to desktop at a reduced size (medium) and it works.

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Thanks everybody, I think I've got it figured out now.

That makes more sense than wet n wild, I'm not sure I'd want to take a proa to alaska , I'd be worried about hungry polar bears climbing aboard :o

 

Here's "Tom n' Jerry" with her new 50 sq ft aerojunk rig, no idea how well it works, haven't got out since I built it a couple days ago, the old one worked fairly well but had a pretty low aspect ratio, about 1.15, this one is 2.9.

mast is new, 2 1/2" by 15 1/2 foot birdsmouth, weights just over 8 pounds, the rig and mast are actually for my 10' dinghy, now that I've had some practice I'll make a 3 1/4" by 19' mast for the proa.

 

She's sort of my Prototype, I built her to try stuff out on and figure out how it works so I'll know when I build something much bigger.

IMG_20200911_093341662.thumb.jpg.ea158d62db93ac324b9e69f4b5751310.jpg IMG_20200911_093521213.thumb.jpg.5428e4b824ea5f87900927fed9a1c4b8.jpg

the leeboard is pretty simple, it slides on the spar on a line that runs to blocks where the crossbeams  attach to the ama and loops around the spar the seats sit on in the middle.

it can kick up either way as well as to leeward if the rig gets backwinded, juries still out as it works well most of the time but floats up turning to windward in light air, I'm thinking of going to a nacra foil in a set of rudder cheeks so it can flop over automatically when the boat shunts and still kick up if it hits something or get backwinded.

 

Still couldn't get the last picture to load, it just showed how the leeboard can be kicked up and set on top of a crossbeam to catch the seat so I can flip it up to paddle.

2b

 

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On 9/7/2020 at 3:53 AM, TwoBirds said:

 

I dunno Rob, my wa'apa is rigged the way you describe although I use an aero-junk instead of a blaestrom rig, no head sail or standing rigging, and I'm seriously considering adding backstays just to catch the sail when it gybes because it sweeps right across the entire tramp and I'm too fat and old to be ducking :)

I'm no expert, heck, most folks on this forum have forgotten more about boats than I'll ever know so I'm having trouble getting my head around your assertion that standing rigging isn't appropriate for proas.
When I first read about proas the thing that really jumped out at me is that the main doesn't have to pass beneath the back stay so you could in theory fully stay virtually any rig, not just that but with their wide staying angles proas have far less mast compression to boot.
then you add in the fact that the back stays lift any ballast in the ama so there's no need to beef up the crossbeams to carry the extra load while protecting the passengers and crew from being swept off the tramp by an unexpected gybe and it just seems like proas and standing rigging are a match made in heaven.

2b

I would attach the mainsheet to the deck and use that to control the sail rather than add backstays.  Or add another mast and a bit of netting so you have enough sail force that you can sail it from the windward hull and avoid the booms altogether.    

Sails which can pass under backstays are possible, but unless the mast rotates (further complication), they will rip the track off the mast, the slides off the sail and break full length battens.  Not a problem with junk rigs, of course.

Stayed rigs are fine while sailing normally and can allow for lighter masts and beams, although the lee hull will need to be stronger.  
But if you gybe or get caught aback in a strong breeze and the sails are pinned against the rigging, the beam and mast are unsupported, the beam will be seeing far higher loads than normal so this is what a conscientious designer designs the  rig and beams for, which means the stays are redundant. 
 
"Made in heaven" applies much more to unstayed masts, on racing proas and more particularly, oncruising proas.   No caught aback or gybing dramas, no slowing down at night, no overweight beams and rigs and best of all, no maintenance and worrying about all those little pieces, any one of which failing causes the mast to fall down.  Two of them and there is no need to venture onto the foredeck to change jibs every time you shunt.  
It is the difference between always thinking about worst case rig scenarios, and not having to think about the rig at all except to trim it correctly.

To test this,  fit the backstays and go out in 20 knots and gybe all standing.  We did this in a Brisbane Gladstone race (myself, the nonracing owner and 2 non sailors) on a 15m Harryproa when the helmsman fell asleep.  The ballestron rig weathercocked, the boat drifted while I woke up, got dressed and came on deck,  untied the mainsheet from the boom, lead it round the mast and retied it.  The (now wide awake) helmsman sheeted on and kept sailing.    This is a whole lot less effort and drama than  'simply lowered the main (which was pressed against the stays), raised the jib and sailed back on course".
 
Russ,
Re "racing":
As I tell you every time you raise these subjects, I raced Elementarry in Perth against a high class Tornado fleet in typical seabreeze of 20-25 knots.  Held them upwind and down, lost them when we had to gybe (a racing proa's Achilles heel).  Not an unexpected result as El was lighter, (120 kgs plus 1 crew vs 155 kgs plus 2 crew) longer (7.5m vs 6m) and had the same sail area, with less windage and water drag (2 foils instead of 4).  The unstayed rigs were efficient, automatically spilling the wind in the gusts.  These ratios and results between Harryproas and catamarans scale up pretty well as the boats get larger.    
Elementarry is now my test boat.  Schooner (linked mainsheets are not worth the effort, the aft sail rotates 90% of the way when the foresail is sheeted on)  and una rigs, pole and wing masts, hiking racks, telescoping and fixed beams and more rudders, capsizes and breakages than I care to remember.  Latest experiment was with a kite and a hydrofoil which worked well. 
None of the built Harrys are race boats, and more to the point, they don't have racing owners.
.453648355_ScreenShot2020-09-11at11_06_08pm.png.ec3a0d27981d32cce322171a320a7327.png
 
Re "Harryproa owners testimony":
The following is by Rick Willoughby.   Rick (70 next year) sails with the owner/builder of a 60'/18m Harryproa in Melbourne.  The builder (same age or older) was a power boater with no sailing or building experience who wanted a sailing boat that was quick and easy to build and sail,  low cost and fun to experiment with.  He built it mostly singlehanded with email and phone advice from me.   The boat weighs 4 tonnes.   I don't know the cost, but I would be surprised if it was more than $Aus50,000/$US36,000 in materials, ready to sail. This is pretty typical of other Harryproas, supporting my claims about weight and cost.    
 
"We had a good northerly until we got up into Western Port then the wind died. It came back up to about 8kts, allowing us to work up to Hastings. The wind started out around 15kts but built quickly to 20kts and gusted to 25 knots at times with us running almost dead square (Edit: sorry, no video, but it is far easier on a Harryproa than on a boat with a jib on the bow both in theory and in practice).   Downwind we averaged better than 10kts once we got going and nudged over 13kts in the gusts.
Reaching across from the rip to Cape Schank gave the best speed I have seen on the boat. The wind during this period was 18 to 20kts. We touched over 17kts a couple of times.  Wind was just aft of beam. We may have coaxed a little more speed if the course was 10 degrees higher. (edit: top speed since then is 19 knots). snip
The best speed, consistently above 15kts, was as we approached Cape Schank where the fetch was reduced and waves less than 1m. We then hardened up a bit and speed dropped to around 13kts. After that the wind dropped as we got further into Western Port.  
We managed a short shunt pinching up to make the channel past Cowes where the angle between tacks was 79 degrees. However that was very much tide assisted. The usual loop at the shunt looks like a smooth U-turn."  
There is a video,  gps track and wind data at http://harryproa.com/?p=129 along with a photo of the boat sailing easily dead downwind in about 18 knots of breeze.  Yes, that is Paul Larsen (Sailrocket) steering.   
"Winds were very light 3 to 4 knots according to Fawkner beacon data. Irrespective of the light winds we could maintain control right up to about 45 degrees true. In these conditions we made best VMG by dropping off the wind a little but were sailing higher than a nearby deep keeler."
 "On a reach with the board up we managed boat speed above windspeed. That was coming back in 5 to 6 knots of wind doing 6.5 to 7 knots through the water."
 
An interview with the owner of Kleen Breeze, who also wanted a low cost, easily built and sailed boat for cruising and charter work, so built himself a 20m Harryproa and loaded it full of electric appliances, batteries, gen set and other equipment.

"I’m well happy with her sailing and she has performed beyond my hopes and expectations. 

Bidirectional rudders work well and are definitely keepers.

Absolutely no noticeable rounding up at low speeds, and she sails at around six knots in 8 knots of wind. I put it down to the square top, large roach and especially the wing masts. In hindsight I would probably forget about the square top as they make for difficulty stowing the sails in the covers, and were only originally included to help spill wind in gusts. I have actually found that the upper mast bend in gusts serves the same purpose, as it was designed to.

Took a long time to persuade Rob to use a schooner set up, (edit: Rob is now a big fan) and I have found it makes for a doddle when shunting. It also gives the ability to balance the sails, and I have found myself able to run for over 20 minutes without having to adjust the tiller.

I would not go lighter and simpler on the hulls as I like the shapes attained, and have found from experience that the cedar absorbs far less epoxy than Airex foam, so the end result is not much heavier. Just over 1000 kg for the 20 m/66' bare lee hull. 

We just made the trip motoring at the start with no wind and ending the day in 25 knots. Most pics and videos taken when doing around 9 knots in 15 knots of wind on a broad reach.
At this point she was behaving beautifully, and once we had adjusted the sail trim we were able to leave the tiller for about 20 minutes while she maintained course.

A couple of photos show us under a light close reach off Salema under foresail in 7 – 8 knots wind doing 5 -6 knots. Tiller steering was light and  could probably be handled by a simple Simrad TP323 tiller pilot."

These quotes, boats and  information about Harryproas and why the design choices were made is on www.harryproa.com

I appreciate that it looks as if Russ and I are working together to promote Harryproas (ie he keeps making outlandish claims so I can refute them with evidence and examples), but it ain't so.  ;-)  The story is explained in Chapter 45 of http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Yacht/LightBrigade.pdf  ,  Gary Baigent's excellent book about New Zealand yacht designs and designers.  

Rob

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

Has it ever occurred to you that not turning every thread on proas into a steaming shitfest with your used car salesman approach might be a good business strategy?

What I hate the most about Rob's approach is that he insists on quoting people out of context.  He is a thread burner like DL, and just like DL, the best approach is to ignore and especially not quote them. Neither know what they're talking about but are the first to plant their flag on a topic. For example, below is a video of the boat Rob marketed as an ocean capable race boat?  And he spends much of his time criticizing other Proa designers, who are actually sailing their boats, as in seaworthy!  Get your popcorn ready though, Rob has a pre-packaged victim response ready to be pasted here with some tweaks criticizing me and whoever else calls him on his bullshit.  Enjoy the show! 

 

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On 8/29/2020 at 1:32 PM, ProaSailor said:

Less height difference so easier to get on and off, and If there is a leeward "pod" on the main hull, it would hang over the dock.

For example, this is a 32 foot Pacific proa by Paul Bieker with a leeward pod:

79089524_32proaP6pic8b.thumb.jpeg.5e91b9ec9aa4c5bd6e8a424826895b33.jpeg

Pretty cool looking boat; were any ever completed?

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18 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

I really like how Rael has moved forward with his ideas - very much looking forward to his 30'er. 

I know eh? I'd love to get half as much done as he does, need more people like him working on proas, he doesn't post here anymore though.

I just built an AD scull and I'll be borrowing his adjustment system for sure.

Lol, he's got the boat building bug bad, it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with.

 

I haven't been able to find any sign one of Biekers proas been finished, but I don't think the design is more than a couple years old and it would take at least that long to home build one.

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16 hours ago, impetuous_donkey said:

Pretty cool looking boat; were any ever completed?

 

44 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

I haven't been able to find any sign one of Biekers proas been finished, but I don't think the design is more than a couple years old and it would take at least that long to home build one.

The Bieker page I linked to is dated December 2012 - eight years ago.  I have no idea if one was ever completed.

An Update to our 32 foot Proa Design, December 30, 2012
http://biekerboats.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-update-to-our-32-foot-proa-design-in.html

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Beat me to it......

There was one build blog, US I think, I can recall laminating up cross beams, but that blog seems to have disappeared.

Apparently, there is another build somewhere in Europe.

Similar thing with Madness design proas, at least 6 builds, and no news to be found? Not even the original after John Harris sold it?

 

 

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2 hours ago, impetuous_donkey said:

Curiosity got the best of me so I emailed the link on his page. While I still think a folding trimaran would work best for my needs I can't help but think how nice something like this would be for shorthanded distance racing....

It was originally designed to compete in the Jester Challenge wasn't it?

Getting back to the Big Red Yacht of the thread title, how much difference to we think getting rid of the sliding mast foot arrangement should make?  It seems to have got rid of a lot of complication (although they seem to need the jibs more for helm balance now).  I see why Rael Dobkins needs to move his rig since he has no boards or rudder in the main hull. 

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John Harris was nice enough to loan me one of his kayak/tri boats for the first Watertribe race, years ago. I helped them put Mbuli together on the beach and watched it smoke off under bare "poles" (about 80 sq ft of wingmast, as I recall) at about ten knots across Tampa Bay.

I thought at the time that the only weakness I could see in the boat was the need to assemble it on the beach, which for a trailer boat is a huge pain in the ass, and the rudders. For a shallow water cruising boat, fixed daggerboard rudders like that just don't strike me as a good idea.

So they sailed across Tampa Bay, hit a shallow and broke a rudder, switched rudders so the working one was aft, sailed off, hit another shallow and broke the other rudder, beached it and went and had dinner. I was still enormously impressed with the boat, I just thought it needed some kind of side-hull mounted kick up rudder if it was going to sail around in shallow water like that.

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4 minutes ago, KONeill said:

John Harris was nice enough to loan me one of his kayak/tri boats for the first Watertribe race, years ago. I helped them put Mbuli together on the beach and watched it smoke off under bare "poles" (about 80 sq ft of wingmast, as I recall) at about ten knots across Tampa Bay.

I thought at the time that the only weakness I could see in the boat was the need to assemble it on the beach, which for a trailer boat is a huge pain in the ass, and the rudders. For a shallow water cruising boat, fixed daggerboard rudders like that just don't strike me as a good idea.

So they sailed across Tampa Bay, hit a shallow and broke a rudder, switched rudders so the working one was aft, sailed off, hit another shallow and broke the other rudder, beached it and went and had dinner. I was still enormously impressed with the boat, I just thought it needed some kind of side-hull mounted kick up rudder if it was going to sail around in shallow water like that.

Was it just because of the wingmasts that they had to put it together on the beach?

 

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4 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

Getting back to the Big Red Yacht of the thread title, how much difference to we think getting rid of the sliding mast foot arrangement should make?  It seems to have got rid of a lot of complication (although they seem to need the jibs more for helm balance now).  I see why Rael Dobkins needs to move his rig since he has no boards or rudder in the main hull. 

The sliding foot is supposed to keep a una rig balanced on a proa. The down sides are complex engineering, bow down trim and insufficient longitudinal spread of sail area. which is why, apart from extra sail area, they put on jibs.

Pacific proas have inherent weather helm. Which is why most successful proas are either sloop, schooner or versions of crab claw....

 

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Also (from memory of a video years ago, too lazy to look for it again) although the mast step was mobile, the stays were about 3/4, so moving the foot forward moved the masthead back. It seemed a lot of effort for relatively little gain in moving CoE forward. 

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8 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Also (from memory of a video years ago, too lazy to look for it again) although the mast step was mobile, the stays were about 3/4, so moving the foot forward moved the masthead back. It seemed a lot of effort for relatively little gain in moving CoE forward. 

Yes, I remember thinking when it was first built that the idea was sound enough (even if it seemed to be asking a lot of the track) but the execution didn't provide enough shift in COE.

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On 9/16/2020 at 6:16 AM, Sidecar said:

Beat me to it......

There was one build blog, US I think, I can recall laminating up cross beams, but that blog seems to have disappeared.

Apparently, there is another build somewhere in Europe.

Similar thing with Madness design proas, at least 6 builds, and no news to be found? Not even the original after John Harris sold it?

 

 

I think this is the blog:

http://proa32.blogspot.com/

The build looked like it was really high quality. I would love to know what happened, if it is half built in an Oakland warehouse, any plans to finish?

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Here’s a Proa Sailing canoe - the idea was steering with the sail, switching the tack and clew when shunting ( which was ogival), swiveling seat (which was attached to a single ogival blade by line, and when I swiveled the seat, the foil rotated longitudinally the opposite way).  What I discovered was that proas need an ama.  But the sail was really powerful.  Scary actually....  the whole thing was kind of controllable, kind of......:lol:  But putting ama/aka on it was A nightmare structurally and weight wise.  I still have the rig, sail and foils, so who knows?  The whole thing was a big leap of complexity- adding an ama that moved and stayed parallel was a bridge too far.  But !  I could sail it it with two hands on the sheets, and steering  with my legs- no running around required, or grabbing other lines, other than the  main halyard. Set up took forever, and pissed off fisherman, so I wound up standing in black goo which bubbled..:blink:  not really an inland lake sailboat.  The sail conceptually came from Dipping lugs, except this one didn’t need to dip, and the c/e stayed centered.

image.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, Amati said:

Here’s a Proa Sailing canoe

If it doesn't go both directions it's not a proa.

25 minutes ago, Amati said:

What I discovered was that proas need an ama.

You had to build a full size prototype to figure that out?  What did you expect would happen when the sail wasn't holding up your weight anymore?  Did you add the ama?

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15 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

If it doesn't go both directions it's not a proa.

You had to build a full size prototype to figure that out?  What did you expect would happen when the sail wasn't holding up your weight anymore?  Did you add the ama?

 Yes it sailed both directions- the seat stayed on one side 

canoes (with sliding seats)  that are 30” wide areNotoriously tippy Anyway.  I can sail a narrow sailing canoe- I thought I’d give this a try
 

tried the ama, but it was not feasible given the internal structure and the seat needed to swivel to move the foil and weight longitudinally to be part of the steering system, so linkage would have been involved- the whole thing was supposed to be a sit down pros windsurfer- very minimalistic- ha!

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15 minutes ago, Amati said:

Yes it goes both directions- the seat stays on one side 

I though one end was square but looking closer, I see that both ends are square!?  I know we've discussed this craft before but wow, it's weird.

How about strapping a big beach ball (or exercise ball) under that seat?  I can't imagine your thinking process that led to having no ama?

Amati_proa.thumb.jpg.00b969a772f58a968ce2d1586a835511.jpg

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14 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

I though one end was square but looking closer, I see that both ends are square!?  I know we've discussed this craft before but wow, it's weird.

How about strapping a big beach ball (or exercise ball) under that seat?  I can't imagine your thinking process that led to having no ama?

Amati_proa.thumb.jpg.00b969a772f58a968ce2d1586a835511.jpg

Scow!  The seat was Foam- it floated

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