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70' Cruising Proa....Big Red Yacht


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Ryan,

Rather than distract you from your trip preparation, I will respond to your post when you return from SF, having shattered the record.   

Regardless of our little differences, I wish you a safe and successful voyage.      

When are you leaving (you said November, I think, but I can't find the post) and have you found a way to post updates?    

Do you have an AIS or tracker we can follow?  

On 11/16/2020 at 8:28 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I don't see a reason to argue with you, I'm not in the market for proa plans.  Buyer beware.. 

Re write history all you want. I'm not trolling you Rob, I'm not the one trying to sell something here. 

Of course you aren't trolling me.  That would be petty, vindictive and childish.    So just keep following me around the forums, bringing up not racing Bucket List when I post, making snide remarks about me personally  and definitely, no matter what happens, don't read or respond to anything I write and don't discuss the boats.    And when you do post, make sure you write that you aren't trolling me, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.  

I don't see a reason for you to argue with me either, but it is pretty evident that you have one.     Why else would you keep arguing?  

It isn't rewriting history when you write rubbish about an event (NZ Proa Congress) and I correct it.    

 

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This thread has gone the way I thought it would. Rob is going to bash it over the head with his vindictive form of logic, but for what purpose? He's quoting things that I didn't write, some that were

It's happened one time in 10K miles of sailing Jzerro and this was due to an abrupt wind shift under a rain shower in the Gulf while sailing to Cuba.  I dropped the jib, lowered both rudders and put t

I'd rather you went away. I don't see the benefit to you of an ongoing public, lie-strewn war and it's embarrassing to me. Without you, Rob I wouldn't get the hairy eyeball on these forums. I'm not se

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20 hours ago, harryproa said:

Ryan,

Rather than distract you from your trip preparation, I will respond to your post when you return from SF, having shattered the record.   

Regardless of our little differences, I wish you a safe and successful voyage.      

When are you leaving (you said November, I think, but I can't find the post) and have you found a way to post updates?    

Do you have an AIS or tracker we can follow?  

Of course you aren't trolling me.  That would be petty, vindictive and childish.    So just keep following me around the forums, bringing up not racing Bucket List when I post, making snide remarks about me personally  and definitely, no matter what happens, don't read or respond to anything I write and don't discuss the boats.    And when you do post, make sure you write that you aren't trolling me, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.  

I don't see a reason for you to argue with me either, but it is pretty evident that you have one.     Why else would you keep arguing?  

It isn't rewriting history when you write rubbish about an event (NZ Proa Congress) and I correct it.    

 

I must have struck a nerve. 

Maybe you would be nicer to people if they always agreed with you. 

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On 11/21/2020 at 5:30 PM, harryproa said:

 

Of course you aren't trolling me.  That would be petty, vindictive and childish.    So just keep following me around the forums, bringing up not racing Bucket List when I post, making snide remarks about me personally  and definitely, no matter what happens, don't read or respond to anything I write and don't discuss the boats.    And when you do post, make sure you write that you aren't trolling me, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.  

I don't see a reason for you to argue with me either, but it is pretty evident that you have one.     Why else would you keep arguing?  

It isn't rewriting history when you write rubbish about an event (NZ Proa Congress) and I correct it.    

 

ain't Karma a Bitch eh rob....

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1 hour ago, TwoBirds said:

ain't Karma a Bitch eh rob....

I'm not even the one who "made up" the proa Congress account. I think it was Gary Derkling who wrote the proa Congress blog post to which I'm referring. He was impressed with Free Radical and was unimpressed with the Elementary.  I might have gotten the year wrong, but I remember what he said because it was rather humorous.  Maybe someone could find the article and post it?

And even if the account is incorrect, what's the harm in quoting it for the next 20 years? 

 

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AnotherClarkey,
Thanks  
On 11/24/2020 at 7:32 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Hopefully it wasn't the performance of his boats that tilted you toward his point of view. 

Telescoping Wingmast? 

6 knots in 6. 8, ( 10?) knots of breeze in the video, with a deep reefed mainsail and a loose halyard is better than many boats under full sail. 

The other interesting feature in that video is how the bow was lifting.  This is unusual among proas, where due to their hull shapes, most sail bow down.   
 
The telescoping mast is a tube, not a wing.  3 x 6m/20' lengths.  It worked well enough to be the rig of choice for the cargo proa http://harryproa.com/?p=3788 due to it's lower windage and weight aloft when reefed and ease of build and use.   The engineers helping with the design work on the cargo proa want to patent it, along with the composite truss beams.  One of them has started 3D printing models for wind tunnel testing to validate the rest of the rig concept, which eliminates mast bearings, batten cars, gooseneck and sail track and perhaps allows low cost sail cloth.  
 
On 11/24/2020 at 3:31 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I'm not even the one who "made up" the proa Congress account. I think it was Gary Derkling who wrote the proa Congress blog post to which I'm referring. He was impressed with Free Radical and was unimpressed with the Elementary.  I might have gotten the year wrong, but I remember what he said because it was rather humorous.  Maybe someone could find the article and post it?

And even if the account is incorrect, what's the harm in quoting it for the next 20 years? 

When you quote someone, it is good manners to attribute the quote and where it was made at the time, not when you are trying to justify your errors afterwards.  
 
Not so subtle difference between the 20 year old quotes:  
You aren't sure who said yours, when he was talking about or the name of the boats. And you can't find it anywhere. 
The one I quoted was by one of the USA's best journos.  You are calling  him a liar on a public forum and accusing Cruising World (and Wooden Boat for saying something similar 10 years earlier) magazine of publishing lies. 
On 11/23/2020 at 7:45 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I must have struck a nerve. 

Maybe you would be nicer to people if they always agreed with you. 

I'm nice to pretty much everyone.  Especially those who disagree with me, if they give reasons and we can discuss and improve the boats.  
The nerve you hit was my boredom nerve. It twitches when someone repeats themselves every time they post without reading or responding to my reply on the topic.  
 
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3 hours ago, harryproa said:
 
The one I quoted was by one of the USA's best journos.  You are calling  him a liar on a public forum and accusing Cruising World (and Wooden Boat for saying something similar 10 years earlier) magazine of publishing lies. 
 

Above is the reason some of us accuse you of misquoting or misrepresenting people's language.  First, where did you find out Steve Callahan is one of America's best journalists?  Despite our current political environment, there are actually a lot of good journalists in the United States still.  Second, you can disagree with an article without calling someone a liar.  They can be wrong or have misconceptions, but "liar" implies intent, and your statement above shows more intent than anything the other guy said about Cruising World.  As the owner of Jzerro, with more miles on her than Steve Callahan, who I admire deeply, I am telling you his description of how vulnerable Jzerro's mast is simply is not true.  So now that I'm verifying this for you, I think it's time for you to stop using his decades old theory about Jzerro's mast and start listening to the person who actually operates it.  There is far too much proa discussion that is theoretical and not enough based in experience.  It needs to stop.

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4 hours ago, harryproa said:
AnotherClarkey,
Thanks  

6 knots in 6. 8, ( 10?) knots of breeze in the video, with a deep reefed mainsail and a loose halyard is better than many boats under full sail. 

The other interesting feature in that video is how the bow was lifting.  This is unusual among proas, where due to their hull shapes, most sail bow down.   
 
The telescoping mast is a tube, not a wing.  3 x 6m/20' lengths.  It worked well enough to be the rig of choice for the cargo proa http://harryproa.com/?p=3788 due to it's lower windage and weight aloft when reefed and ease of build and use.   The engineers helping with the design work on the cargo proa want to patent it, along with the composite truss beams.  One of them has started 3D printing models for wind tunnel testing to validate the rest of the rig concept, which eliminates mast bearings, batten cars, gooseneck and sail track and perhaps allows low cost sail cloth.  
 
When you quote someone, it is good manners to attribute the quote and where it was made at the time, not when you are trying to justify your errors afterwards.  
 
Not so subtle difference between the 20 year old quotes:  
You aren't sure who said yours, when he was talking about or the name of the boats. And you can't find it anywhere. 
The one I quoted was by one of the USA's best journos.  You are calling  him a liar on a public forum and accusing Cruising World (and Wooden Boat for saying something similar 10 years earlier) magazine of publishing lies. 
I'm nice to pretty much everyone.  Especially those who disagree with me, if they give reasons and we can discuss and improve the boats.  
The nerve you hit was my boredom nerve. It twitches when someone repeats themselves every time they post without reading or responding to my reply on the topic.  
 

At the end of the day Rob, you've never demonstrated your claims with enough physical proof for me to believe them. So, allow me to agree to disagree. For the record, I'd like nothing more than for you to prove me wrong. 

I didn't think I needed to quote Gary because I didn't expect you to refute his account,  which only reaffirmed the evidence of your design's performance for me personally. The primary evidence of your design's performace (for me, personally) can be found in the 2 bucket list videos, and all I have to say is the reality of that boat is different than the 4 minute commercial you put together explaining the concept. Does that make you a plucky dreamer who lacks follow through or a con man trying to sell crappy proa plans?  I'm not qualified to answer that question. Suffice to say I was really stoked about the idea, and really disappointed with the result. 

Believe me, no one would be happier than to see the cargo proa successfully sailing. I'd love to read the patent application for the rig, and I'm looking forward to see it working on the cargo proa. 

R.finn made an excellent point as well. And I suspect he delivered his point with a tact and reasonableness which will make the suggestion difficult to ignore.  Freestanding rigs have plenty of advantages besides your favorite claim the boom will break the standing rigging when caught a back - a claim which appears to have an overwhelming amount of physical evidence to the contrary.  

Proas are weird enough and interesting enough to attract plenty of attention without making drama for it's own sake. 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/29/2020 at 11:18 PM, r.finn said:

Above is the reason some of us accuse you of misquoting or misrepresenting people's language.  First, where did you find out Steve Callahan is one of America's best journalists?  Despite our current political environment, there are actually a lot of good journalists in the United States still.  Second, you can disagree with an article without calling someone a liar.  They can be wrong or have misconceptions, but "liar" implies intent, and your statement above shows more intent than anything the other guy said about Cruising World.  As the owner of Jzerro, with more miles on her than Steve Callahan, who I admire deeply, I am telling you his description of how vulnerable Jzerro's mast is simply is not true.  So now that I'm verifying this for you, I think it's time for you to stop using his decades old theory about Jzerro's mast and start listening to the person who actually operates it.  There is far too much proa discussion that is theoretical and not enough based in experience.  It needs to stop.

If you don't know who thinks Steve is a top US (sailing) journo, then you haven't read his post on Joe's site.  You might also like to look up the word 'irony".

"The reason some of you accuse me of misquoting or misrepresenting people's language" is because you read what you want to see, not what I write.  If you referenced most of what you accuse me of, you would not have much to write about.  If you only quoted from the last 10 years, it would be almost zero.

There are 2 discussions.  First is whether properly designed (ie, including caught aback loads) beams and mast on a stayed Pacific proa are lighter because of the staying angle.  They aren't, for the reasons and maths I supplied.  No one has commented on these, so I presume the point was made.

Second is whether an unstayed rig is safer and easier than a stayed rig when gybing in a breeze.  

Instead of discussing this, (or, heaven forbid, admitting that something on a Haryproa made sense) the argument has become about the Cruising World article.    It is simple.  

Steve Callaghan said (see post #38)    "A gybing mainsail in a breeze will blow the stick away, ...which is why we sail at night with the mainsail down", which is a pretty definite statement based on sailing the boat, with Russ, for 3,000 miles.  

Steve was either 1) correct, 2) lied ("with intent"), 3) was "wrong", 4) had a "misconception" or 5) some other wriggle word.  I believe he was correct.    You guys are saying he wasn't.    Then there is a direct quote of Russ' in Wooden Boat: "the big danger is being caught aback".  Same 5 choices for the journo and for Russ.    Again, I believe Russ and the journo.  You guys don't.      

The easy way to clear it up is for the stayed mast guys to go out in 20 knots, fully powered up, full sail, full water ballast, with the usual rigging and pull the helm over and gybe all standing in 20 knots, with the video running.  If nothing goes awry, I will concede that Russ, Steve, Wooden Boat and Cruising World were wrong/ had a misconception.    Saying it won't happen because your autopilot won't let it is humbug and does not allow for weed, net, or other stuff getting caught around a rudder causing a bearaway, a wave from the wrong direction slewing the boat, or for lesser mortals than you to fall asleep while steering.

But unless you can get back on course as easily as you can with an unstayed rig sheeted directly to the windward hull, (ie, drift quietly with the rigs weathercocked while you steer back onto the original course, do a harmless gybe and carry on), it will not change my view that it is far more hassle and danger than an unstayed rig in the same situation.  Which is what we should be discussing, not the "current political environment" in the US.

None of this detracts from my heartfelt good wishes for your journey to NY and SF.  Give it plenty!

Janet,

Your words are nice,  when I catch you bullshitting.  Unfortunately, they do not match the tenor of your trolling.  Oops sorry, following me around telling everyone that  a radical, light, low cost boat I designed and built using my own time and money to allow everyone to enjoy multihull racing "was not proven to your satisfaction".    We all know this.    You don't need to repeat it every time you post, or to follow me around repeating it to try to upset other threads.  

If you are going to quote me (or anyone else), don't make it up, state when and where it was said.      Steve wrote that the rig would be blown away in a gybe.  I attached his article in my first post and repeated what he said.  Neither of us mentioned the boom.   You might also consider what happens to the gooseneck (and the battens, cars and tracks) if the sheet is released and the reefed sail does not hit the stay but continues until they are weathercocking.  You might also look at the location relative to the boom of the new, very nice jib Ryan has built.

Proas are indeed "interesting".  It's curious that you haters waste so much time beating up on me and anyone who agrees with me rather than discussing them beyond describing shunting and the different types, over and over.    It is as if you don't want anyone to discuss the different boats or their pros, cons and differences in case you have to concede that there are better ways to do things.     

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1 hour ago, harryproa said:

If you don't know who thinks Steve is a top US (sailing) journo, then you haven't read his post on Joe's site.  You might also like to look up the word 'irony".

"The reason some of you accuse me of misquoting or misrepresenting people's language" is because you read what you want to see, not what I write.  If you referenced most of what you accuse me of, you would not have much to write about.  If you only quoted from the last 10 years, it would be almost zero.

There are 2 discussions.  First is whether properly designed (ie, including caught aback loads) beams and mast on a stayed Pacific proa are lighter because of the staying angle.  They aren't, for the reasons and maths I supplied.  No one has commented on these, so I presume the point was made.

Second is whether an unstayed rig is safer and easier than a stayed rig when gybing in a breeze.  

Instead of discussing this, (or, heaven forbid, admitting that something on a Haryproa made sense) the argument has become about the Cruising World article.    It is simple.  

Steve Callaghan said (see post #38)    "A gybing mainsail in a breeze will blow the stick away, ...which is why we sail at night with the mainsail down", which is a pretty definite statement based on sailing the boat, with Russ, for 3,000 miles.  

Steve was either 1) correct, 2) lied ("with intent"), 3) was "wrong", 4) had a "misconception" or 5) some other wriggle word.  I believe he was correct.    You guys are saying he wasn't.    Then there is a direct quote of Russ' in Wooden Boat: "the big danger is being caught aback".  Same 5 choices for the journo and for Russ.    Again, I believe Russ and the journo.  You guys don't.      

The easy way to clear it up is for the stayed mast guys to go out in 20 knots, fully powered up, full sail, full water ballast, with the usual rigging and pull the helm over and gybe all standing in 20 knots, with the video running.  If nothing goes awry, I will concede that Russ, Steve, Wooden Boat and Cruising World were wrong/ had a misconception.    Saying it won't happen because your autopilot won't let it is humbug and does not allow for weed, net, or other stuff getting caught around a rudder causing a bearaway, a wave from the wrong direction slewing the boat, or for lesser mortals than you to fall asleep while steering.

But unless you can get back on course as easily as you can with an unstayed rig sheeted directly to the windward hull, (ie, drift quietly with the rigs weathercocked while you steer back onto the original course, do a harmless gybe and carry on), it will not change my view that it is far more hassle and danger than an unstayed rig in the same situation.  Which is what we should be discussing, not the "current political environment" in the US.

None of this detracts from my heartfelt good wishes for your journey to NY and SF.  Give it plenty!

Janet,

Your words are nice,  when I catch you bullshitting.  Unfortunately, they do not match the tenor of your trolling.  Oops sorry, following me around telling everyone that  a radical, light, low cost boat I designed and built using my own time and money to allow everyone to enjoy multihull racing "was not proven to your satisfaction".    We all know this.    You don't need to repeat it every time you post, or to follow me around repeating it to try to upset other threads.  

If you are going to quote me (or anyone else), don't make it up, state when and where it was said.      Steve wrote that the rig would be blown away in a gybe.  I attached his article in my first post and repeated what he said.  Neither of us mentioned the boom.   You might also consider what happens to the gooseneck (and the battens, cars and tracks) if the sheet is released and the reefed sail does not hit the stay but continues until they are weathercocking.  You might also look at the location relative to the boom of the new, very nice jib Ryan has built.

Proas are indeed "interesting".  It's curious that you haters waste so much time beating up on me and anyone who agrees with me rather than discussing them beyond describing shunting and the different types, over and over.    It is as if you don't want anyone to discuss the different boats or their pros, cons and differences in case you have to concede that there are better ways to do things.     

You continue to try and prove your design's merits with forum posts. I'm (still) waiting for something more substantial. 

But I'm not going to hold my breath as your strategy to sell proa plans is more about public forum arguments than it is about providing a vetted design. 

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18 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

You continue to try and prove your design's merits with forum posts. I'm (still) waiting for something more substantial. 

But I'm not going to hold my breath as your strategy to sell proa plans is more about public forum arguments than it is about providing a vetted design. 

Just curious Janet, and anyone else...

Do you not think that freestanding masts are better/safer/easier on your sail and rigging while accidentally gybing than on a stayed rig?

How about sailing DDW, or anywhere even close? Better? Safer? 

i think so. On cats, tris, and monos. IMHO. Care to discuss?


As I’ve said before, I too also wish there were more harryproas out there showing themselves off in nicely made videos (with hot babes too please), and I wish the “Bucketlist” idea would have worked out, with a small fleet of them racing here and there, but regardless, Rob’s HarryProa conceit has a lot of interesting ideas that are worthy of discussing. If you dont want to discuss, maybe you should just read the thread while you sit on your hands? 
And maybe I missed the post, but I don’t see where Rob is trying to sell his designs here via arguments  I see him laying out very clear reasons why certain things on some boats, such as freestanding masts compared to stayed masts, have obvious benefits  

Personally I like cats  

and tris

and proas 

I like boats! And discussing the pros and cons of things that work.

Speaking of things working... SODEBO IS RIPPING around the globe right now!

Fuck Yeah!!!


 

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using an unstayed mast on a PACIFIC proa only makes sense if you ignore a couple of HUGE perks of the hull form.

Because the main doesn't need to pass under the standing rigging virtually any rig could be fully stayed on a pacific proa.

Pacific proas have the longest staying base and lowest mast compression of any hull form, so standing rigging actually works better on a pac proa than on a tacker. The trade off is that, as Rob states in this thread, there is a cost in weight to make the mast proof against an accidental gybe, but, as Rob states in this thread, making a stayed mast proof against an accidental gybe is totally doable.

On a Pacific Proa the rig never passes over the crews heads, ever, even in an accidental gybe the standing rigging should catch the rig before it can sweep the deck, which lets you set your sail lower on the mast maximising yet another Pacific Proa perk, righting moment.

This is important because unlike tackers where the boat is designed around the boom constantly sweeping  across the area where the crew spends 90% of their time, Pacific proas are designed around keeping the deck high and dry, so in order to make a freestanding rig safe on a Pacific proa, indeed any proa, you have to start by moving the rig at least 3 feet up the mast otherwise the only way to dodge a weathercocking rig would be to throw oneself flat on the tramp, so if your talking a 30' freestanding mast it just got 10% longer, and ~25% heavier, you've also pissed away a significant amount of righting moment for no good reason.

On any other hullform save a cat I wouldn't have anything but a freestanding mast, even if just because I think standing rigging is fugly or to minimize possible fail points, but they just don't make any sense on a pacific proa.

 

Rob has stated often that he only posts here on anarchy to get potential buyers onto his website so he can sell them plans, it's one of the few things he's posted that I believe.

 

I would love to see rob succeed beyond his wildest dreams, the leap that would bring in Proa design would be fricken awesome!!!! thing is, if he put half the time into designing boats as he puts into spinning forum posts he'd be retired by now.


But so far all I see from Rob are a bazillion sales forum posts and two or three heavily edited videos, to the best of my knowledge none of his boats have ever won a race, and I have never seen a comment by someone who has built or is building one of his boats, I have never even seen a post by anybody other than rob even talking about one of his boats, assuming there's more than one...

if anything he's set Proa design back by putting bucket list down like a scrub horse with a busted leg instead of sorting her out and racing, and who knows how many have been put off proas by him blowing up threads to boost hits on his webpage or because they've misheard his "Pacific Proas are dangerous" Rant as "Proas are dangerous"

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On 12/8/2020 at 5:02 AM, TwoBirds said:

On any other hullform save a cat I wouldn't have anything but a freestanding mast, even if just because I think standing rigging is fugly or to minimize possible fail points, but they just don't make any sense on a pacific proa.

That is a failing of Pacific proas, not unstayed rigs.  On Haryproas, the crew are well clear of the boom.    

It is almost as easy to stop the rig sweeping the crew off on a Pac proa as it is to make the (oversize) rig safe in a gybe.  Both are more work, cost and hassle in a breeze than the unstayed rig.  Plus the "fail points", difficulty of raising the main unless head to wind and the extra beefing up and high foredecks required.  

Free standing rigs on cats are just as sensible as they are on tris and monos, based on the several we have designed/built plus the others that are out there. 

 

On 12/8/2020 at 5:02 AM, TwoBirds said:

Rob has stated often that he only posts here on anarchy to get potential buyers onto his website so he can sell them plans, it's one of the few things he's posted that I believe.

As I said in post #137:

"You have confused cause and effect.   The more  I post information about Harryproas and design/build innovations, the more web hits I get.  You guys and your irrational dislike keep giving me opportunities to post this information.  Feedback is that potential clients like the way I keep the conversation on boats and sailing, regardless of how much mud is flung at me. They think it shows that I am a reasonable person (which I am), with whom it is easy to discuss their dream boats even if they don't eventually choose a Harryproa."

You did not respond to it when I posted, but waited a couple of months to repeat it.  I appreciate the opportunity to repost my stance, but your behaviour is a pretty solid definition of trolling.  

On 12/8/2020 at 5:02 AM, TwoBirds said:

if he put half the time into designing boats as he puts into spinning forum posts he'd be retired by now.

Exactly what is happening, for precisely that reason!  Due to Harryproa's success, a small part of which is due to the free advertising you haters provide, I am building a 24m/80'ter (the attached is a little out of date, but gives the general idea) which my wife and I are cruising through the Pacific for the next 3 years, demonstrating situation suitable green shipping to remote villagers.    We will then donate it to a village.     Build progress is on http://harryproa.com/?p=3788 or you could be one of the 3,200 people watching it on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal         

Or trot along to the Boat Design or SA forum and spew some more bile and give me another chance to talk about it.  Don't forget to blame me for ruining the thread.

On 12/8/2020 at 5:02 AM, TwoBirds said:

But so far all I see from Rob are a bazillion sales forum posts and two or three heavily edited videos, to the best of my knowledge none of his boats have ever won a race, and I have never seen a comment by someone who has built or is building one of his boats, I have never even seen a post by anybody other than rob even talking about one of his boats, assuming there's more than one...

That is because you are too busy down marking them instead of reading them.  Start with post 59 in this thread and tell us what you think of Rick Willoughby's description (maybe look him up before you say anything silly).  Maybe also read www.harryproa.com and find out about the boats, the build method and the history.  

Janet,

You might benefit from reading them as well.  Also, you did not tell us who you think is lying in the magazine discussion.  

 

 

 

Cargo proa sketch.png

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On 11/15/2020 at 11:53 AM, harryproa said:
I am interested in your rigging fatigue analysis.   Please supply references or calculations to support your claims, and how much fatigue you would allow for to compensate for 6 times the compression load.  

I started with the rule of thumb that steel should not be loaded to more then 1/5 of its yield strength if you want it to last indefinitely.  I looked up some fatigue curves (I don't remember how to upload pictures, and don't see that option in the menu), and found that depends more on the type of steel than I had realised.  I cross-checked a book on anchoring, which gives the safe working load of BBB chain as 1/4 of breaking load, and for high tensile chain 1/3 of breaking load. 

Aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit.  No matter how low the load, aluminium will fatigue, and eventually break.  So how much allowance you make depends on how many cycles you want the structure to be able to endure.  I found only one fatigue curve that goes all the way back to one cycle (most of those I found start at over 1000): https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and-answers/s-n-curve-aluminum-alloy-given-linked-document-s-n-curve-obtained-fatigue-testing-mean-str-q16361989  Using that curve, if you want the structure to last for a million cycles, working load should be a bit less than 1/3 of breaking strength.  The curve is supplied for a homework assignment which makes clear that the curve is for 0 mean load, and fatigue life will be different (I think it's safe to say less) if the mean load > 0.  I don't know the Goodman equation, so I don't know by how much.  I also don't know how long the average load cycle of a stayed rig is, so I can't translate that into sailing hours.

Still, the ultimate strength needs to be several times the safe working load.  In the examples I found, at least three times working load.  Depending on how long you want an aluminium mast to live, and what the mean load is and what the Goodman equation tells you about its effect on fatigue life, you may well get to a factor six. 

If you want a more definite answer, so you can take fatigue into account when you again make that point about compression load when caught aback, you need to ask a structural engineer. 

The same should apply to beams.

 

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Sailing the south Pacific on a cargo harry proa with your wife sounds like a heart warming goal. I've never met your wife or sailed on a harry proa, so I don't know if I should be jealous or if I should feel sorry for your wife. Har-de-har-har. 

I get it. HarryProa vs. The Soulless Minions of Orthodoxy.  I can relate to that. However - for me - racing sailboats is more fun than arguing about them on the internet.  Yet I'm on my phone instead of working on my boat, my bad. 

How fun would a long distance proa race be?  Kinda like The Race to Alaska or the Jester challenge, but with proas. 

Now that looks interesting to me. Low-Tech and probably fast. My Favorite. 

 

SmartSelect_20201213-112308_Chrome.jpg

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I remember watching four outrigger dugouts race in Anse Miton, Martinique back in 1982. Very exciting and impressive in a decent breeze. One crashed and burned with three finishers all the crews wearing huge grins. Don't know if those boats are still active.

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4 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Sailing the south Pacific on a cargo harry proa with your wife sounds like a heart warming goal. I've never met your wife or sailed on a harry proa, so I don't know if I should be jealous or if I should feel sorry for your wife. Har-de-har-har. 

I get it. HarryProa vs. The Soulless Minions of Orthodoxy.  I can relate to that. However - for me - racing sailboats is more fun than arguing about them on the internet.  Yet I'm on my phone instead of working on my boat, my bad. 

How fun would a long distance proa race be?  Kinda like The Race to Alaska or the Jester challenge, but with proas. 

Now that looks interesting to me. Low-Tech and probably fast. My Favorite. 

 

SmartSelect_20201213-112308_Chrome.jpg

Can you share the source of the picture?

I believe this is from a build in the French West Indies, by the owner and my buddy Philippe Guillard, owner of (late) "Des Jours Meilleurs" proa "fame"...

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I think it was built by Jeremie Fischer (known for 'Equilibre') in Martinique with the intention of competing in the Route du Rhum. There is an image gallery here:  https://imgur.com/a/bQse540 .  There is apparently another imgur gallery showing construction but it doesn't seem to be loading for me at the moment.

There is a short sailing video on YouTube but the poster (Jeremie's brother, I think) has asked that it not be shared.  Suffice to say that if you search for 'Unnamed Proa' you might be pleasantly rewarded.

Latest status seems to be:

i79mAva.jpeg

 

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3 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

There is a short sailing video on YouTube but the poster (Jeremie's brother, I think) has asked that it not be shared.

How silly!

wip.png.4edf12adb9b35b1b8bf7af58566f50ac.png

Cool boat.  From the angle of hull tracks in the water, it appears to need more leeway resistance (daggerboard?).

From the imgur page, cropped:

UnnamedProa.thumb.jpg.0085a5291c571586fa7eb53cb7f36063.jpg

link to full size cropped image

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5 hours ago, Anotherclarkey said:

I think it was built by Jeremie Fischer (known for 'Equilibre') in Martinique with the intention of competing in the Route du Rhum. There is an image gallery here:  https://imgur.com/a/bQse540 .  There is apparently another imgur gallery showing construction but it doesn't seem to be loading for me at the moment.

There is a short sailing video on YouTube but the poster (Jeremie's brother, I think) has asked that it not be shared.  Suffice to say that if you search for 'Unnamed Proa' you might be pleasantly rewarded.

Latest status seems to be:

i79mAva.jpeg

 

That looks fun! 

 

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4 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Cool boat.  From the angle of hull tracks in the water, it appears to need more leeway resistance (daggerboard?).

Probably. There is not much hull in the water. There looks to be a daggerboard/rudder aft on the starboard bow, but no apparent sign of one forward on the port bow? Hence the mods from red sails to a blue sail?

But could also have been photo’d whilst changing course?

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46 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Probably. There is not much hull in the water. There looks to be a daggerboard/rudder aft on the starboard bow, but no apparent sign of one forward on the port bow? Hence the mods from red sails to a blue sail?

But could also have been photo’d whilst changing course?

That is a still from the video clip. During that film the boat seems to be  constantly, gently, rounding up with the aft sail sheeted in - just before the end the foresail shakes and the aft sheet is let go.  In the picture with the blue sail there are boards at both ends but they seem very small and must be aimed more at trimming CLR than providing substantial leeway resistance?

 

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2 hours ago, Sidecar said:

But could also have been photo’d whilst changing course?

I was referring to the one minute video where it looks like their heading was steady but they were slipping to leeward.  Why would they be turning to windward to set up for a shunt?  Too bad the video stops just as they were about to shunt.  Very cool looking boat.

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I'll bet it sails great. Anything that long, narrow, and light would have to. The ama has too little volume for bigger conditions and for carrying weight in my opinion. With no pod, water ballasting would be necessary.

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Rael Dobkins built a crabclaw schooner a few years back, Crystal Clear I think, said it was great fun until the wind got up over 15 knots or so, then not so much, mind you he was singlehanding, so a bit ambitious maybe.  

 

Be interesting to know whether they went from 2 crabclaws to one or vice versa

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I sailed on a crab claw rigged proa in New Zealand and was very surprised to learn that they can flog. When they flog the lower spar flails around and it's kind of alarming. Not that I don't like them as a result. The boat was a ripper. The "Toroa" Had the most amazing motion in a short chop and around 20 knots of wind.

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On 12/16/2020 at 10:05 AM, Russell Brown said:

I sailed on a crab claw rigged proa in New Zealand and was very surprised to learn that they can flog. When they flog the lower spar flails around and it's kind of alarming. Not that I don't like them as a result. The boat was a ripper. The "Toroa" Had the most amazing motion in a short chop and around 20 knots of wind.

Shunting that huge crabclaw in heavy air might be a challenge. The simplicity and efficiency of crab claws has always interested me - maybe a Gibbons rig would be easier to manage - however I have a feeling the crabclaw is better to windward.  

Maybe a smaller proa, like free radical, would be a fun platform to experiment with.. 

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I suspect shunting even a small crabclaw in heavy winds could get "Interesting" pretty quickly, even without a canting mast to deal with, I'm planning on experimenting with them next summer when the water is warmer :) but on a canting A-frame mast so I have a bit more control.

I actually built my proa to experiment with, info on the web being sparse and often contradictory.

The problem with the Gibbons rig and non canting rigs in general is that the CE is too far aft and tends to push the aft end over before the boat can gain enough headway for the foils to generate sufficient lift to keep the boat out of irons, I've been trying to compensate with a large sliding leeboard on the ama, low rocker,  and balanced rigs with very limited success thus far.
I think that an easy fix for the Gibbons would be to hang the sail from a parrel attached aboud 25% from either end of the spar so the sail could be pulled forward on the mast when shunting instead of the mast canting .

harryproa may actually have an advantage in theory here, having the weight to windward creates drag that tends to rotate the boat into the wind so it might be slower to go into irons coming out of a shunt giving the foils more time to generate lift, seems like a small upside all considered though, drag being, well, a drag.

I've been serious considering shelving the idea and going to a sloop or schooner, but maybe I'll play around with that a bit next time I'm out, rig an oar so I can generate drag to windward and see if shunts go better, I'm not adverse to learning from the mistakes of others.

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2 hours ago, TwoBirds said:

I think that an easy fix for the Gibbons would be to hang the sail from a parrel attached aboud 25% from either end of the spar so the sail could be pulled forward on the mast when shunting instead of the mast canting .

Man, more degrees of freedom is the opposite of what you need.

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Are you thinking Gibbons rig? basically a latteen rig with the non-canting mast in the middle? Or the Dierkings rig you had before the schooner?

34 minutes ago, KONeill said:

Man, more degrees of freedom is the opposite of what you need.

 

IMG_20201219_114525620.jpg

Wow, talk about obscure, couldn't find a single picture online.

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4 hours ago, TwoBirds said:

The problem with the Gibbons rig and non canting rigs in general is that the CE is too far aft and tends to push the aft end over before the boat can gain enough headway for the foils to generate sufficient lift to keep the boat out of irons, I've been trying to compensate with a large sliding leeboard on the ama, low rocker,  and balanced rigs with very limited success thus far.

 harryproa may actually have an advantage in theory here, having the weight to windward creates drag that tends to rotate the boat into the wind so it might be slower to go into irons coming out of a shunt giving the foils more time to generate lift, seems like a small upside all considered though, drag being, well, a drag.

Rounding up into irons before you get enough speed is a slow speed balance problem. Having a large draggy ama  to windward can only make it worse.

My proa has a windward staysail, which set by itself gives leehelm. Luff it enough and it’s drag will pull the boat into irons. And I have a relatively small ama.

The location of lateral resistance relative to the CE of the rig is as, if not more, important than the longitudinal relationship. In both cases, the more aligned, the easier to balance.

To reduce the lateral balance problem you need to get your rudders as far apart and as far to leeward as possible and have enough inherent hull lateral resistance and directional stability.

Little wonder most traditional proas have small low resistance log amas and were leeward oar steered with the helmsman hanging off the back of the boat.

 

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I don't actually have rudders yet, the sliding leeboard handles steering well enough that shifting weight does most of the rest and a paddle gets the job done when all else fails :) I usually have to paddle when shunting to keep the boat straight till the leeboard bites.

I'd really prefer to use a proa specific rig but they tend to resemble kites loosely attached to the boat which makes them problematic at best in heavy winds

I've been trying to find more info on the canting A-frame mast John Pizzey used on one/some of his proas, as well as canting fore and aft it could be canted to leeward to spill wind in gusty weather and might be just the thing to tame the crabclaw and Dierking rigs while still letting them do all those amazing things they do.

I've always wondered, how do you keep the windward staysail from spoiling the airflow to the main? did you get the idea from John Pizzey's atlantics?

 

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4 hours ago, TwoBirds said:

I've always wondered, how do you keep the windward staysail from spoiling the airflow to the main? did you get the idea from John Pizzey's atlantics?

Upwind, it doesn’t.

They behave as two separate sails and theoretically at least, the jib improves mainsail efficiency due to biplane positive stagger (ie leebowing). Ditto deep downwind, once I can get the jib leech top to leeward of the mainsail luff to regain positive stagger and where in a conventional rig, an aft sail increasingly blankets a forward sail. 

The boat does best upwind (boat speed ~ = TWS up to ~ 10 knots and ~ 11.7 knots max so far) and near DDW, I am way above the polars (~13.7 knots max so far). All in less than 15 knots TWS gusting 20. And ~ 13.7 knots VMG DDW is pretty handy also, especially if it helps to avoid gybe shunting.

In between, the sails are in varying degrees of negative stagger (ie in dirty air) and performance is not so good, but I am working on it. I will fly a screecher off the bow on long legs eventually, which will maintain positive stagger to the mainsail itself and to the rig as a whole somewhat longer, even if I have to drop the windward jib.

I wasn’t aware that John Pizzey has tried a biplane rig until Paul Napper mentioned it after I had already built it. Sadly, I was unable to compare notes with John before he passed away. He seemed to be either unimpressed or bored with the idea, and move on to other things......

My main reasons for going biplane were avoiding duplication of headsails and/or trips to the bow, and faster, easier shunting. From that perspective it works perfectly. And I would rather be faster upwind and shunting at the expense of reaching, than the other way round.

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On 12/19/2020 at 1:23 PM, TwoBirds said:

Are you thinking Gibbons rig? basically a latteen rig with the non-canting mast in the middle? Or the Dierkings rig you had before the schooner?

The issues with the rig didn't really depend on the changes Gary made, IMO. I never sailed without a boom, but I fixed the mast vertically a few times with my original white sail. It didn't make much difference. The issues I had centered around a big sail swinging around one point of contact at the top of the mast. Making that point of contact slide around seems like it would not make the situation better.

But who knows. As you say, I used the Dierking rig which has a boom. Maybe if you try a boomless version it'll work for you. It's fun to play with, anyway.

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My Salamba, should push the limits of proa evolution.  It has a full carbon rig ,new Blast sail, Harkin blocks and a windward skyhook sidestay on brails, that can tilt the mast to windward like a windsurfer.  Might as well use the sail to lift the main hull out of the water at speed.  I will keep. you posted.    Health has slowed down my sail time, ,but this spring should be the bomb.

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59 minutes ago, KONeill said:

The issues with the rig didn't really depend on the changes Gary made, IMO. I never sailed without a boom, but I fixed the mast vertically a few times with my original white sail. It didn't make much difference. The issues I had centered around a big sail swinging around one point of contact at the top of the mast. Making that point of contact slide around seems like it would not make the situation better.

But who knows. As you say, I used the Dierking rig which has a boom. Maybe if you try a boomless version it'll work for you. It's fun to play with, anyway.

Sorry, I tend to think of the Gibbons and Gary Dierkings version of the Gibbons as two different rigs, My bad.

I was thinking that when I pulled the tack forward and down to the bow of the boat it would pull the parrel tight on the (fixed) mast so the mast/sail connection would be fairly secure once tied down, but I see what you mean, during the actual shunt while the sail is only loosely secured at one corner it could get pretty wild in any more than a bit of wind, I guess if a fix was easy someone would have done it already.

I'll play around with the proa rigs and probably have fun, but I doubt I'll use them for anything but light air or spares, the Dierking/Gibbons looks like it would go together quickly and stow neatly.

After watching your boat I'm seriously considering putting in mast steps/partners in the bows so I can try a schooner as well, on top of fixing my balance problem  being able to walk from one end to the other instead of scrambling across the tramp would be a huge plus with my bad back.

4 minutes ago, guerdon said:

My Salamba, should push the limits of proa evolution.  It has a full carbon rig ,new Blast sail, Harkin blocks and a windward skyhook sidestay on brails, that can tilt the mast to windward like a windsurfer.  Might as well use the sail to lift the main hull out of the water at speed.  I will keep. you posted.    Health has slowed down my sail time, ,but this spring should be the bomb.

Is this you?  looks like fun

 

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That is. the designer and. his boat in France, with traditional rig.   Mine has a rig like a giant windsurfer.  Craigslist hooked me up with a bundle of North, Finnish uni carbon spars that were joined to make the monster rig.  Aloha, Guerdon.

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Jeremie contacted me about the crab claw (more correctly, oceanic lateen, the crab claw has the big hollow roach) rig on the mini cargo proa.   He is a sailmaker, has tried a lot of things, reckons he has it pretty well sorted,  but the most important part is the boom shape and bend, with which I agree.  The proa guys in Poland use bent spars and pocket luffs, reckon they perform well, but there are no performance numbers and they don't race.    

Jeremie entered the boat in the Route de Rhum, was accepted by the race organisers, was told the authorities would alter the rules, but they didn't, so he did not compete.  The boat in the pics looks like it could use bigger foils and some righting moment.  

Shunting a crab claw is difficult in any breeze until you learn how.  The locals make it look like ballet.  Grab the upper boom in one hand, take a step on a small boat, a couple on a large one, grab the mast, turn and another step and it is done.  Stronger breeze is no harder than light breeze as it is all about balance and using the wind.  Being beam on at the beginning is critical.     

There have been attempts by westerners to remove this dance from crab claw sailing with tracks along the lee side of the hull.  The one I sailed 20 years ago worked well, but the expense and weight are significant.  The mini cargo proa in the Marshalls used a rope traveller, but once I had seen how it should be done, I was embarrassed enough to remove it.

There is a plywood Harryproa ready to launch in Germany which has a crab claw.  The builder is a foiling A cat sailor, worked with me in the Marshalls, has done a lot of research, including models, reckons they are the way to go for cruising.    

Harryproas shunt well because the windward hull is designed for the load it carries, it is nothing to do with the extra weight there.  The air drag of the windward hull makes little or no difference in a shunt as the wind is from the beam until you get going.    A stalled dagger board (almost inevitable, during a  reach to reach shunt) acts like a brake.  If it is in the ww hull, it is added wetted surface, plus the stalled drag is trying to luff the boat.     

A better solution is two large rudders mounted where you can see them and no daggerboard.  This allows you to get the water flow moving over the rudders as soon as the boat starts moving in the new direction.  Once flow is attached, steering is easy.

Another option is a rig with the coe forward, although this then becomes unbalanced when the boat is sailing.  The schooner overcomes this as the forward sail is sheeted on first while tack shunting, then the aft one to balance the rig.   Gybe shunting speeds up considerably if you sheet on the fore sail first.     On a una rig, a similar result is achieved by lifting the relevant rudder.  

Wetsnail

An alloy mast that was 6 times bigger/stronger/heavier to allow for fatigue seems unlikely.  Another 6 reasons why unstayed carbon masts are better/lighter and, if you build them yourself, cheaper.

Janet,

I can see how you relate to "the soulless minions of orthodoxy", but there is no evidence you "get" either Harryproas or the cargo proa.

I wish you would "argue" (discussing would be better) about the boats.  It would be so much more interesting than continually spouting your view on me not racing Bucket List.

Enjoy your racing.  If you ever design and build an innovative boat, you will realise how comparatively shallow the race thrill really is.

The Harry haters,

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing, your allegations that Steve C or Russ was lying or the other points in post #211 or #215?    This is great if you have accepted that what you said was incorrect, not so much if you are ignoring it so you can brown troll and bring them up as "new" points in a couple of weeks time.

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3 hours ago, harryproa said:

The Harry haters,

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing, your allegations that Steve C or Russ was lying or the other points in post #211 or #215?    This is great if you have accepted that what you said was incorrect, not so much if you are ignoring it so you can brown troll and bring them up as "new" points in a couple of weeks time.

You are a piece of work,  Rob. You spout absolute bullshit, twist other people's words, and tell outright lies. The scary thing is that the shit you say sounds logical and some people actually believe you.

How about you just turn off the bullshit? If you want to spread hatred and lies, keep them on your side of the pond. 

 

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4 hours ago, harryproa said:

Janet,

I can see how you relate to "the soulless minions of orthodoxy", but there is no evidence you "get" either Harryproas or the cargo proa.

I wish you would "argue" (discussing would be better) about the boats.  It would be so much more interesting than continually spouting your view on me not racing Bucket List.

Enjoy your racing.  If you ever design and build an innovative boat, you will realise how comparatively shallow the race thrill really is.

The Harry haters,

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing, your allegations that Steve C or Russ was lying or the other points in post #211 or #215?    This is great if you have accepted that what you said was incorrect, not so much if you are ignoring it so you can brown troll and bring them up as "new" points in a couple of weeks time.

It takes more than histrionics, melodrama and anecdotes to win races. I doubt I'll ever tire of racing because "for me" the best part is being a part of a shared experience with other sailors - not necessarily "discussing" the theoretical performance predictions of unfinished designs while staring at my phone.  

I can see how this "proa perseveration" can go on forever.  I sincerely hope to see a harry proa in the 2023 race to Alaska. 

It's Christmas Rob, enjoy the holiday with your family. 

 

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On 12/23/2020 at 10:23 PM, harryproa said:

 

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing,

So that we may fully appreciate the weight of Rick Willoughby's description of Harry proa SAILING, please Rob can you give us an outline/overview of Ricks

SAILING career. What one design classes, offshore events  etc did he compete in and how did he go. What is his Blue Water mile tally, etc etc..... You know the drill.

Thanks in advance.

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On 12/30/2020 at 2:29 AM, TwoBirds said:

ever notice that if you were to chop about a third off the forward end of a crabclaw the remainder would essentially be a lug sail?

I think what is interesting about the crab claw sail is that with only a flat piece of material and two light spars, you get a pretty good twisted airfoil, assuming the sail bellies out to an approximately conical shape. I'm not sure the same could be said of the lug sail, which would probably require some shape to be cut into it for best results.

Side view:

CrabClawSideView.thumb.PNG.e0b46cf3dda3e22bfba139826111788b.PNG

 

Plan view:

CrabClawPlan.thumb.PNG.15f2820f11ca6414a03caa324e9c063b.PNG

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apparently lugsails evolved from lateen sails which explains the resemblance.

Lugsails get much of their shape from rounding at the head and foot same as the crabclaw does, they need a lot more to keep the downhaul from pulling all the draught out of the sail though.

Crabclaws really are an amazing rig considering their simplicity, unfortunately they owe a lot of their versatility to the canting mast which for me is a non starter, the spars get pretty crazy once you get much over 100 sq ft, and they're a huge pain to reef and doing so spoils their shape, it's easier just to carry extra sails in various sizes which isn't very easy on a proa. 

here's a research paper done on 10 traditional crabclaw shapes

 

always thought this was a great endorsment for the crab claw rig :)

images.jpg

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from the research paper on traditional oceanic rigs I linked to above

"3. Lewis noted that mat sails make stiffer and better shaped aerofoils. He further
wrote that in Ninigo, cloth sails were used for day-to-day fishing and mat sails
for racing (Lewis 1999: 29, 30)."

must say that's a real surprise, be interesting to find out how they wove their sails.

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Wonder if one could reef a crabclaw neatly by making a second boom pocket and shifting the boom to the second pocket and brailing the slack up under the boom.

wouldn't be very handy, should give much better control over the shape of the reefed sail though.

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On 12/25/2020 at 6:58 PM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

So that we may fully appreciate the weight of Rick Willoughby's description of Harry proa SAILING, please Rob can you give us an outline/overview of Ricks SAILING career. What one design classes, offshore events  etc did he compete in and how did he go. What is his Blue Water mile tally, etc etc..... You know the drill.

Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure what Rick's one design or offshore experience is or what difference it makes to a simple explanation of a day's sailing on a cruiser, but Rick is as near a genius as anyone I know, has designed the world's fastest human powered boat, helped me, Russ, Sidecar and many others with free propulsion advice, knows more practical and theoretical sailing stuff than most, has heaps of original ideas and doesn't mind experimenting to prove/disprove them.  We get on well.   When Russ asked for Harryproa sailing experience, I quoted Rick.  Russ reckoned it was bullshit (Post #355 Best Boat for Race to Alaska thread).     

If you want a racer's opinion,  Paul Larsen (Sail Rocket, Team Phillips, etc) sailed on the same boat, thinks the cargo proa is cool, wants to race it to Hobart and keeps the rendering on his screensaver to remind him to KISS.  BTW, some interesting developments on the cargo proa, follow them on http://harryproa.com/?p=3788

The guy with more high level offshore race experience than most on this thread (post #137) reckons Harryproas are a pretty good combination of low cost, comfort, safety, easy to build and sail, decent performance and sensible use of space.  ;-)

Or, do what most people do.  Visit www.harryproa.com, read the specs and the information, study the photos and videos, analyse it, and ask questions (either here or direct to me at harryproa@gmail.com) about anything that doesn't make sense to you.  Then decide for yourself. 

There is some more from Rick on Harryproas on the Race to Alaska Best Boat thread, post #446.

On 12/24/2020 at 1:33 AM, Russell Brown said:

You spout absolute bullshit, twist other people's words, and tell outright lies.

Where and when?

On 12/24/2020 at 1:33 AM, Russell Brown said:

The scary thing is that the shit you say sounds logical and some people actually believe you.

Based on interest in Harryproas and the increasing number of people on the forums calling you out for trolling me (the latest is Post #40  https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/80-foot-cargo-harryproa.64736/page-6),  it is "most" people believe me, not "some".  

To them, the scary thing is that you and your acolytes can't/won't acknowledge the logic makes sense, appear to be afraid to discuss it and have to resort to personal abuse and brown trolling.  

On 12/24/2020 at 1:33 AM, Russell Brown said:

How about you just turn off the bullshit? 

You accused Rick Willoughby of bullshitting (Post #355 R2A thread), not me.  

The others accused you of lying in Cruising World (post #38, this thread) , I thought you were telling the truth (Post #211).  You don't seem to know whether you were or not.

On 12/24/2020 at 1:33 AM, Russell Brown said:

If you want to spread hatred and lies, keep them on your side of the pond. 

Where and when have I spread either?     I don't lie and I don't hate anyone.   Ryan (Jzerro) and I get along well (away from the forums), as will Rob Z (Sidecar) and I when we can meet in person.   I pity you and I have no idea who 2 Birds and Janet are and care less.    

Maybe compare the tone of my posts with yours and the other Harry haters and brown trolls and decide who is spreading what.

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Facts are facts and the facts remain: You are selling an unproven concept. Instead of building & thoroughly testing before selling your designs, you have marketed wild claims and flashy images. Half the cost & weight? Faster? There is no proof of that, just your words. In fact, there is no proof that your boats sail well at all, let alone quickly. Do they go upwind? do they steer downwind in big waves? Has one ever been thrashed in real ocean conditions and come out okay? Why isn't anyone but you willing to speak for your boats? If they are good, then why can't the boats speak for themselves? I know there are plenty of Harry proas sailing, so how can there be no testimony from owners who are cruising or racing them?

I think it's a flawed concept. I've never said that about your boats before, in fact I have never said anything critical about them on the forums, only asked for some form of proof to verify your claims. I have offered to post my views on the Harryproa concept, which you didn't seem excited about and I've respected that. I do have them ready if you change your mind

Your marketing methods leave a lot to be desired. Denigrating other proa designers (even Newick, but mostly me). Fabricating interviews with my crew from a race. Making claims that cannot be true about your own boats and a myriad of things you have said about mine that aren't true. Why do you feel the need to be this way? No one would have bothered you in your endeavors if you hadn't been spouting such bullshit about our boats. Why should you care if someone said my mast would fall down if caught aback? I'm not selling proa designs and never have. I'm not in competition with you. I do detest false advertising. I think you probably believe a lot of what you say, but that doesn't make it true.

 

 

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15 hours ago, harryproa said:

I'm not sure what Rick's one design or offshore experience is 

Ha, that’s funny.

Man with no sailing experience critiques sail boat for free lunch.

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7 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Has one ever been thrashed in real ocean conditions and come out okay?

I do recall this statement from Rob. Any other ocean crossings Rob?  

"The 12m sailed from Aus to NZ, spent 3 days in 45 knots, had some easily fixed damage, nothing to do with the design philosophy."

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?3817-A-little-bit-different

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18 minutes ago, Zonker said:

I do recall this statement from Rob. Any other ocean crossings Rob?  

"The 12m sailed from Aus to NZ, spent 3 days in 45 knots, had some easily fixed damage, nothing to do with the design philosophy."

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?3817-A-little-bit-different

Ha, thats funny too.

Aroha started to break up on that trip.

If it wasn't for the skill, seamanship and resourcefullnes of the skipper it may have turned out very differently.

From memory it wasnt Robs fault, apparently.

It may have been the builder/business partners fault, apparently.

I'm sure Rob will fill us in on the blanks shortly.

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ahhhh, the elusive Harry Hater, often found peacefully coexisting with like minded individuals such as unicorn haters, vampire haters, and pushmepullyou haters...

It's never robs fault.

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Wow. Had no idea, just recalled a vague posting from long ago. So I googled the boat name and found this on Rob's site. http://harryproa.com/?p=1759

I'm not a Rob hater. I think he's an interesting fellow with too many good or strange ideas that he seems to try out on other people. And tries them all in a new boat such as his current cargo boat. He is very good at self promotion but follow through and final execution are not his strengths.
 

"The trip from Coffs harbour (Aus east coast) to Houhora (NZ north east coast) via Lord Howe Island was interesting. The boat performed well apart from a couple of minor breakages and the leeward hull flexing issue.....

It settled down after 36 hrs. About 200 miles out from Lord Howe the leeward hull started flexing badly in a beam chop. I was very concerned, turning back wasn’t a good option – strong westerly forecast to the west and the island didn’t seem like a place to do repairs. The wind dropped so we decided to use the jib halyard as a shroud. Worked a treat so decided to continue and take it easy. So did the rest of the trip under main only, with 1 and 2 reefs in the whole way. I was amazed how well she went, approaching North Cape had 18 – 20 knots a bit behind the beam, couldn’t slow her, had 2 reefs in still doing 12 knots on the gps. This is with heaps of food and water and gear onboard. It took 7 days L H to Houhora (730 n miles). Only problem we had was she would occasionally round up into the wind when going to windward. Still haven’t quite figured that one out."
 

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1 hour ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Aroha started to break up on that trip.

If it wasn't for the skill, seamanship and resourcefullnes of the skipper it may have turned out very differently.

This is a very old discussion.  Interesting what a boat name search on Google turns up:

Quote

Can’t be Aroha, its too far away, and; history;- Aroha- went offshore, from Coff AUS,to North Cape NZ , after 313nm had to hide behind Lord Howe island with rudder defects. The next 760nm the bow area broke up mid tasman sea, unable to withstand the the wave pounding , according to the skipper. this in mild offshore [max.43knots tws] conditions , and had to be nursed in carefully by a skillful fisherman/owner to prevent it from foundering, a case of under engineering. , according to the owner has; the bad habit of rounding up violently every few waves.

 

Denney Inquisition Part 2(b): Jzerro, that miserable dog
by Steven Callahan, May 10, 2008
http://www.pacificproa.com/articles/denney_inquisition_part_2b_jzerro_that_miserable_dog.html

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Lord Howe is where Francis Chichester rebuilt his Gypsy Moth airplane on the first ever trans-Tasman flight. Anyone who hasn't read "The Lonely Sea and Sky" is missing an amazing read on early flying and navigation. Rick Willoughby is the worlds expert in pedal drive systems for boats and was a huge help to me in designing my system for the G-32. No idea what his sailing experience is, but I think he designed his proa. My crossing of the Tasman (on a proa) was wild too and mostly upwind, but took 6 days and was a great trip, especially seeing the long white cloud.

Is it okay for people to sell their ideas and designs on this forum? Where is the line drawn? 

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3 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

This is a very old discussion.  Interesting what a boat name search on Google turns up:

 

Denney Inquisition Part 2(b): Jzerro, that miserable dog
by Steven Callahan, May 10, 2008
http://www.pacificproa.com/articles/denney_inquisition_part_2b_jzerro_that_miserable_dog.html

Jesus, I never read "Jzerro, that miserable dog". It's quite a read. I know that whole thing drove Steve batshit crazy, but it's important for historical context.

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it is a good read, pity all the links on the right are dead, I'd like to read the rest of those articles.

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13 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Ha, that’s funny.

Man (edit: Rick Willoughby) with no sailing experience critiques sail boat for free lunch.

This is despicable and absolutely untrue.  

Russ, you should be ashamed of yourself for not pointing out in strong terms that Rick would not take a bribe or tell lies.   

Joe ("Truth is important" ) O as well for liking it.

So should Rob Z and anyone else who knows Rick.

I will respond to the brown trolls that followed Octopus' post when I have nothing better to do.  
 

Rob Denney

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, TwoBirds said:

it is a good read, pity all the links on the right are dead, I'd like to read the rest of those articles.

I hadn't realized that Yahoo! shut down the old forum, creating those dead links.  I checked the "Wayback Machine" but apparently none of those pages are archived.  Then I looked at my own archives and found I had saved some of them.  So I modified the links on this page alone to show the Yahoo! pages I saved:

Reply to Denney's critiques of Brown et al
by Steven Callahan, Apr 2, 2008
http://pacificproa.com/articles/steven_callahan_reply_rob_denney.html

I'll modify them ASAP to remove the Yahoo! logo and other extraneous bits.

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11 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Jesus, I never read "Jzerro, that miserable dog". It's quite a read. I know that whole thing drove Steve batshit crazy, but it's important for historical context.

That was the second part ('Part 2(b)') of what started here a month earlier:

Denney Inquisition Part 2: Jzerro, that miserable dog
by Steven Callahan, Apr 14, 2008
http://pacificproa.com/articles/20275.htm

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Well,

This took an interesting turn.  I wish I could find that Dirkling post about the Elementary in the proa Congress race.  I'm 99% certain I didn't imagine it. 

I don't think anyone called Rick a liar,  but presenting another guy's opinion in your own posts is basically hearsay and borderline anecdotal.  

I think Steve's own response to Rob's criticism clearly illustrates who's trolling who. 

 

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4 hours ago, harryproa said:

This is despicable and absolutely untrue.  

Russ, you should be ashamed of yourself for not pointing out in strong terms that Rick would not take a bribe or tell lies.   

Joe ("Truth is important" ) O as well for liking it.

So should Rob Z and anyone else who knows Rick.

I will respond to the brown trolls that followed Octopus' post when I have nothing better to do.  
 

Rob Denney

 

 

So no other sea passages then, no surprise there

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37 minutes ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Well,

This took an interesting turn.  I wish I could find that Dirkling post about the Elementary in the proa Congress race.  I'm 99% certain I didn't imagine it. 

I don't think anyone called Rick a liar,  but presenting another guy's opinion in your own posts is basically hearsay and borderline anecdotal.  

I think Steve's own response to Rob's criticism clearly illustrates who's trolling who. 

 

And who the "Brown Troll" really is.

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6 hours ago, harryproa said:

This is despicable and absolutely untrue.  

Russ, you should be ashamed of yourself for not pointing out in strong terms that Rick would not take a bribe or tell lies.   

Joe ("Truth is important" ) O as well for liking it.

So should Rob Z and anyone else who knows Rick.

I will respond to the brown trolls that followed Octopus' post when I have nothing better to do.  
 

Rob Denney

 

 

 

Jeesus Rob,  settle down.

Adding your words to my snipped quotes is absolutely despicable.

Get it in perspective, I asked for an outline of Ricks sailing experience after you  dragged his name into the discussion. You provided NOTHING, stating you had no idea what difference that makes.

I posted a tounge in cheek quip to point out the idiocy of your reply in the context of your earlier posts.

You added the  rest.

SHAME ON YOU.

I have never met Rick but have followed his exploits with  human powered boats.

A very clever and talented man and no disrespect to him  was implied or intended.

I'm tapping out.

 

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3 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Well,

This took an interesting turn.  I wish I could find that Dirkling post about the Elementary in the proa Congress race.  I'm 99% certain I didn't imagine it. 

I don't think anyone called Rick a liar,  but presenting another guy's opinion in your own posts is basically hearsay and borderline anecdotal.  

I think Steve's own response to Rob's criticism clearly illustrates who's trolling who. 

 

I can't find it either, in fact I can't find much of anything about any of robs boats that doesn't tie directly back to rob other than a few pieces on Blind Date that have nothing to dowith how she sails, must say I'm a bit puzzled, If people like these boats as much as rob claims why is he the only one talking about them?

Do these people that rob claims have endorsed his boats know that they have done so?

 

1 hour ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Jeesus Rob,  settle down.

Adding your words to my snipped quotes is absolutely despicable.

Get it in perspective, I asked for an outline of Ricks sailing experience after you  dragged his name into the discussion. You provided NOTHING, stating you had no idea what difference that makes.

I posted a tounge in cheek quip to point out the idiocy of your reply in the context of your earlier posts.

You added the  rest.

SHAME ON YOU.

I have never met Rick but have followed his exploits with  human powered boats.

A very clever and talented man and no disrespect to him  was implied or intended.

I'm tapping out.

 

Rob does seem to have a knack for chasing off people who ask hard questions without actually answering, can't say as I blame them, why put up with the aggravation over a silly argument when rob is so obviously willing to fight as dirty as he has too to win.

Except it's not a silly argument, rob is selling untested designs based on an experimental hullform on the premise that they are blue water capable and his whole sales technique could best be described as trolling for suckers.

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Never has any one design of boat or variations thereof, generate more anger from its own proponents than a proa LOL. 

Proa threads; happily keeping the angry nutters contained and easily identified since... forever! 

Fun read and lots of laughs but I am scared and out of here. Y’all take crazy and angry to a whole new level! 

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

Never has any one design of boat or variations thereof, generate more anger from its own proponents than a proa LOL. 

Proa threads; happily keeping the angry nutters contained and easily identified since... forever! 

Fun read and lots of laughs but I am scared and out of here. Y’all take crazy and angry to a whole new level! 

Actually, proa threads generally go quite smoothly until rob shows up, there were very few arguments  proafiles simply because rob was banned from the beginning

 

I've seen some pretty good knock down drag outs over tris vrs cats or mono vrs muti more than a few times.

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4 hours ago, TwoBirds said:

Actually, proa threads generally go quite smoothly until rob shows up, there were very few arguments  proafiles simply because rob was banned from the beginning

 

I've seen some pretty good knock down drag outs over tris vrs cats or mono vrs muti more than a few times.

Actually, i respectfully disagree ..... Proa threads are generally colorful due to the strange and varied personalities that like this style of boat.

Multi people by mono standards were weirdos in the past because we were alternative but that's changed as we are now mainstream. Proa people have taken that crown and this thread is a good example.

Now i'm not a proa fan as I believe cats and tris tick all the boxes and i can find no examples of Proas that have any advantages over cats and tris for cruising and racing anywhere but that's me.....BTW I feel the same about unstayed rigs.

BUT... Good luck to you all for enjoying the ocean and sailing. 

I believe the hate here in both camps is making some look stupid and is certainly not doing your craft any favors. if i was contemplating a build, i'd run the other way reading this train wreck. 

It would be great to just follow and celebrate @r.finn's epic voyage in one of your craft. I certainly will follow his trip. It's also, IMHO, the closest example of a proa that is actually efficient and semi practical ....  Best of luck to him. He has and will do more for your cause than anyone before.
Sorry for the interruption. Carry on the hate...... 
 

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Wess is absolutely right, proa fans are angry, why the hell wouldn't we be? Rob has been relentlessly trolling us for over twenty years, he needs people to talk about harryproa in order to sell it, anybody with enough braincells to keep each other company and a basic understanding of hull speed realizes the concept is inherently flawed so no one is talking about it.

So Rob intentionally provokes personal attacks on the theory that any publicity is good publicity, if you go through this thread you'll see that rob blows up the thread and disappears until the thread peeters out or settles down, then shows up and blows it up again, maximum reward for minimum effort.

You don't have to take my word for it, rob has said it himself, he loves the personal attacks because they generate hits on his website

Before you judge all proa enthusiast take 20 minutes and read  Steven Callahan articles linked to in ProaSailers post below, get an idea of the shit and abuse we've been putting up with from rob for over 2 decades, and please stop blaming all proa enthusiasts for robs bad behavior.

  On 1/6/2021 at 6:43 AM, ProaSailor said:

I hadn't realized that Yahoo! shut down the old forum, creating those dead links.  I checked the "Wayback Machine" but apparently none of those pages are archived.  Then I looked at my own archives and found I had saved some of them.  So I modified the links on this page alone to show the Yahoo! pages I saved:

Reply to Denney's critiques of Brown et al
by Steven Callahan, Apr 2, 2008
http://pacificproa.com/articles/steven_callahan_reply_rob_denney.html

I'll modify them ASAP to remove the Yahoo! logo and other extraneous bits.

In fact a case could be made for robs actions over the years violating the anti stalking section of the forum rules.

20 years of robs bullshit and no end in sight...

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29 minutes ago, cynophobe said:

You proa guys make the average anarchy posters look like saints. Here's an actual comment about the Big Red Boat,Gary has sold the boat. 

IMG_1651.PNG

An actual post about an actual boat LOL.  That and following Ryan is what is interesting to me re proas.  And so its clear I am not picking on one side or the other.  As far as I am concerned both "champions" are nuts.  I am all for joking and trolling but these folks seem to be serious and angry.  I would not buy a boat from or do business with Harry or Russell which is sad on a personal level as I used to respect and look up to one of them.  Both of them have posted enough seriously inane stuff to scare me away.  Life is too short to deal with folks that angry and trapped in a box.  Oh and wow... that IS red! 

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In what way do you have to deal with me, Wess and why would I care if you respect me? From my perspective you are a shit-stirrer and just want this fight to continue.

 

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Never said you should care and doubt either of us do.  Nor do I care if you continue your fight w Rob or not.  Makes no difference to me.  Carry on.

 

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