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Considering carbon standing rigging for my Pogo 12.50, but wondering if investment is worth it on a variety of levels. Anyone have any experience on the rating hit or thoughts on durability?

Wondering also why carbon fiber rigging has taken off in high-performance big boats, but not so much in our size range (40 ft)... is it just price prohibitive or am I missing something?

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  • 5 months later...

Thought I would provide an update. Did some digging into this over the summer, I looked into EC6 and I agree, at the quoted price it was a bit insane for a 40ft, it was over double the price of rod.

 

So I kept looking for other carbon rigging options, and I found a new company in Annapolis called Light Speed Rigging. Full transparency: I was able to work out a deal with them and got a discount in exchange for product visibility on our boat/media. 

 

That being said, given our boat does 10,000nm+ a year that includes a Transat or two plus hard inshore and offshore racing, I’m not going to put something onboard that I don’t believe in and can take a beating. 

 

Light Speed is building solid carbon rigging, similar to Carbo Link, but they have figured out a way to cure in-house, and can still be coiled for shipping. It’s all plug and play, so it was easy to retrofit and plug into my existing set up. 

 

Retail for my Pogo 12.50 would have been 20% above the cost of rod. So very reasonable considering the life span is 12+ years. Right now, Light Speed is focused on boats under 80ft, and designing carbon rigging more for us smaller guys, racers or performance cruisers.

 

We were able to cut 26kg out of the rigging switch from wire to LS Carbon, which is huge. That actually put me over the 115 stability index needed for Newport Bermuda Race, so very happy about that. Original plan was to race the C600, so I would have performance data from previous races to compare. Since that’s been canceled, we’re still trying to gather what data we can to quantify the performance change. 

 

Currently we just finished a 700nm offshore tests in 30+ knots and I’ve been very happy, rigging is rock solid. We took a small hit in ORC rating but it was minimal, still waiting on what IRC comes back with.

 

I have attached some photos for a look at integrations. Will return with rating info and performance data when I have it.  - https://lightspeedrigging.com

F047A5A9-029B-43C7-8E76-008503963E66.jpeg

3AE469F1-1F33-48D1-A282-81A3111C0D42.jpeg

A4561BA9-2B38-4466-B51A-00CE14BD772D.jpeg

17988EAF-CC81-482D-ACCE-C5BBB79B3BFA.jpeg

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what is the weight  load and  costs vs dyneema rope rigging if it was 26kg  lighter then SSwire where does dyneema fit in the picture

is the diameter = to SSwire or thinner ? is = load dyneema rope  thicker then carbon or SSwire  so more or less airo drag then other options ?

but costs were vs rod not your existing wire

guessing the mast is also carbon so no electrolysis problems unlike a alloy mast are there good ways around that or is carbon/carbon the only use

on electrolysis what is the bronze colored part on the bottom before the threads made of ? other parts of the turnbuckle SS ?

does the carbon stay bottom bit wedge like a Norseman fitting or glue in or something else

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4 hours ago, nota said:

what is the weight  load and  costs vs dyneema rope rigging if it was 26kg  lighter then SSwire where does dyneema fit in the picture

is the diameter = to SSwire or thinner ? is = load dyneema rope  thicker then carbon or SSwire  so more or less airo drag then other options ?

but costs were vs rod not your existing wire

guessing the mast is also carbon so no electrolysis problems unlike a alloy mast are there good ways around that or is carbon/carbon the only use

on electrolysis what is the bronze colored part on the bottom before the threads made of ? other parts of the turnbuckle SS ?

does the carbon stay bottom bit wedge like a Norseman fitting or glue in or something else

Hey Nota answer to most of your questions below. 

 

  1. I have 12mm caps, 10mm V2/D3 & D1, 8mm D2s all those SWL/ break strength are 15% above the equivalent sizes in rod. In terms of cable diameter, they are approximately the same as rod and wire sizes. So my caps measure 11.5mm diameter on average. My cables are bare carbon, but Light Speed can add technora or dyneema covers. This increases the diameter by 2mm-ish but adds an extra layer for abrasions resistance.  
  2. For dyneema, the big issue there is the stretch is huge and it’s not dynamically stable, so you’ll constantly have to be adjusting your shroud tension. The LS Carbon has less than 3% stretch, compared to ~11% wire. For my boat, I didn’t see dyneema standing rigging as an option. Not sure what the size of dyneema would be, but I assume substantially larger diameter. 
  3. Cost of LS Carbon was 20% more than rod, but estimated 3 times lifetime, so LS Carbon was a better investment overall.
  4. The ends of the cables are all terminated in Titanium fittings so no galvanic corrosion issues. Light Speed makes a variety of termination options that can fit with any mast. Idea is simple plug and play. Once I had my old rigging off, it took me all of 30min to install the new carbon, and this was a switch from discontinuous wire to continuous carbon.
  5. The bronze thread under the turnbuckle is an aluminum bronze alloy adjustment that won't seize and can be adjusted under load. 
  6. The cables are made using a sling winding technique, so custom built to length; the termination inside the cone end fitting is Light Speed custom engineering. 

 

Have a look at the Light Speed website, they have some really good educational information for owners looking to make the switch - https://lightspeedrigging.com/case-for-carbon-rigging/

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So they are saying rod is only good for 5 years. That doesn’t sound right. The site a very glossy brochure but a little light on information. 

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On 1/31/2021 at 6:24 PM, Wagonmonster said:

Thought I would provide an update. Did some digging into this over the summer, I looked into EC6 and I agree, at the quoted price it was a bit insane for a 40ft, it was over double the price of rod.

 

So I kept looking for other carbon rigging options, and I found a new company in Annapolis called Light Speed Rigging. Full transparency: I was able to work out a deal with them and got a discount in exchange for product visibility on our boat/media. 

 

That being said, given our boat does 10,000nm+ a year that includes a Transat or two plus hard inshore and offshore racing, I’m not going to put something onboard that I don’t believe in and can take a beating. 

 

Light Speed is building solid carbon rigging, similar to Carbo Link, but they have figured out a way to cure in-house, and can still be coiled for shipping. It’s all plug and play, so it was easy to retrofit and plug into my existing set up. 

 

Retail for my Pogo 12.50 would have been 20% above the cost of rod. So very reasonable considering the life span is 12+ years. Right now, Light Speed is focused on boats under 80ft, and designing carbon rigging more for us smaller guys, racers or performance cruisers.

 

We were able to cut 26kg out of the rigging switch from wire to LS Carbon, which is huge. That actually put me over the 115 stability index needed for Newport Bermuda Race, so very happy about that. Original plan was to race the C600, so I would have performance data from previous races to compare. Since that’s been canceled, we’re still trying to gather what data we can to quantify the performance change. 

 

Currently we just finished a 700nm offshore tests in 30+ knots and I’ve been very happy, rigging is rock solid. We took a small hit in ORC rating but it was minimal, still waiting on what IRC comes back with.

 

I have attached some photos for a look at integrations. Will return with rating info and performance data when I have it.  - https://lightspeedrigging.com

F047A5A9-029B-43C7-8E76-008503963E66.jpeg

3AE469F1-1F33-48D1-A282-81A3111C0D42.jpeg

A4561BA9-2B38-4466-B51A-00CE14BD772D.jpeg

17988EAF-CC81-482D-ACCE-C5BBB79B3BFA.jpeg

Sheet Chafe kills carbon rigging 

 

 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Sheet Chafe kills carbon rigging 

 

 

This is something I have heard as well, but so far no issues. I know Carbo Link has been manufacturing solid bare carbon cables for years and Future Fibres adds a chafe sleeve over there bundled rod EC6, so two schools of thought here. Light Speed offered me a chafe technora cover over my lowers, and that would have stopped any chafe issues, but we decided to go bare. Our schedule 2021/ 2022 ( COVID permitting) is transat east, Fastnet, Middle Sea, RORC transat back and C600,  so rigging is going to get a workout.  I’ll be sure to report any chafe issues I see, but so far nothing. 

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Asymmetric sheets are aggressive in a jibe 

 

Sacrificial Chafe sleeves are the way to go 

make them 

purchase some Eglass or carbon sock 

purpose some clear heat shrink tube 

purchase a metal rod to use as a mandrel ... with outside diameter the same as your rigging 

wax the mandrel

 

then follow the directions 

 

when the epoxy laminate reaches partial cure ...rubbery stage ... slice it lengthwise with a razor knife , cut ends to length , open up and remove from mandrel 

 

Gently install over your rigging while still rubbery ,,, compress with some masking tape and let cure 

carbon is not the easiest to slice and it’s very stiff,  eglass is easier 

don’t glue it to your rigging 

use a whipping top and bottom 

 

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This is just a side comment but I am interested in the motivations people have to do this. Presumably it is to make the boat faster. If you believe in the fairness of rating rules, this increase in speed is exactly matched by an increase in rating hit, so your finish position would be identical. If you do not believe in the fairness of rating rules, it is an admission that the game is rigged and there is no reason to play. It actually makes more sense on a cruising boat, where absolute speed (as contrasted with rated speed) means something. 

Now the OP said the reduction in weight allowed him to enter a race he could not otherwise, and that I get. If it is cheaper in life cycle cost I get it. But to go 1/10 knot faster, which will then be removed by handicap, I don't get - what's the point?

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21 minutes ago, DDW said:

This is just a side comment but I am interested in the motivations people have to do this. Presumably it is to make the boat faster. If you believe in the fairness of rating rules, this increase in speed is exactly matched by an increase in rating hit, so your finish position would be identical. If you do not believe in the fairness of rating rules, it is an admission that the game is rigged and there is no reason to play. It actually makes more sense on a cruising boat, where absolute speed (as contrasted with rated speed) means something. 

Now the OP said the reduction in weight allowed him to enter a race he could not otherwise, and that I get. If it is cheaper in life cycle cost I get it. But to go 1/10 knot faster, which will then be removed by handicap, I don't get - what's the point?

It will also make the boat "feel" different. Better or worse is your perspective. I like stiff, but some folks think it's jerky. Certainly, as you optimize you want to take out the weight, esp up high.

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Carbon is chosen because of its long life ,, precision ,  low weight and low stretch 

many modern boats  no longer use shroud turnbuckles 

If you have the money , carbon is a good choice 

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Of course, I don't use shrouds at all, which is simpler, cheaper, and more reliable still.

But I could understand wanting to make the boat fell "better", even if the measured performance difference is meaningless. I'd be curious to do a blind test to see if an owner - even an experienced one - could really tell the difference. 

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57 minutes ago, DDW said:

Of course, I don't use shrouds at all, which is simpler, cheaper, and more reliable still.

But I could understand wanting to make the boat fell "better", even if the measured performance difference is meaningless. I'd be curious to do a blind test to see if an owner - even an experienced one - could really tell the difference. 

Yes we have noticed a difference with the carbon rigging setup. The boat is far more responsive to gusts, handles them with more ease and seems to transfer that into forward power a lot faster.

Also my reefing points have all moved up by a knot or two, still testing this. We are currently collecting and building new polar data, so that we can see a quantifiable change, and it’s not just by “feeling”. The boat also doesn’t pitch as much and just seems a lot more stable. So far very happy with the performance change from switching to LS Carbon rigging so far. 

According to the engineers, removing the 26kg aloft is the equivalent of adding 140kg of right moment to our keel (9ft draft); if you think about it that way that’s a huge change. We have seen this as my ORC stability number increased from 110.6 to 115. 

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13 minutes ago, Wagonmonster said:

Yes we have noticed a difference with the carbon rigging setup. The boat is far more responsive to gusts, handles them with more ease and seems to transfer that into forward power a lot faster.

Also my reefing points have all moved up by a knot or two, still testing this. We are currently collecting and building new polar data, so that we can see a quantifiable change, and it’s not just by “feeling”. The boat also doesn’t pitch as much and just seems a lot more stable. So far very happy with the performance change from switching to LS Carbon rigging so far. 

According to the engineers, removing the 26kg aloft is the equivalent of adding 140kg of right moment to our keel (9ft draft); if you think about it that way that’s a huge change. We have seen this as my ORC stability number increased from 110.6 to 115. 

With a reduction in inertia aloft the boat will react to rudder inputs much faster 

you will notice it when steering thru waves 

how much did the carbon set cost ?

2.5 times rod ?

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I suggested the blind test to eliminate the placebo effect which is extremely strong in yacht improvements. Polar data is hard to collect accurately, but might show you the true difference. The reefing points increasing by a knot (say from 15 to 16 knots) would imply an increase in stability of 14%. Seems like a lot on a 12m 6000 kg boat. Back of envelope calcs, 29kg half way up the rig would be about the same as a heavy crewman moving from Cl to rail which is not nothing for sure (but not 14%, more like 2%). It would make a lot more difference in ultimate stability so that part seems plausible. 

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12 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

With a reduction in inertia aloft the boat will react to rudder inputs much faster 

you will notice it when steering thru waves 

how much did the carbon set cost ?

2.5 times rod ?

Retail for the carbon was around 18K USD that’s with all new fittings and turnbuckles, we just did the side rigging for now. I believe rod for my boat would have come in around 14k, and I got a quote for EC6 at 34k.

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1 hour ago, Wagonmonster said:

Retail for the carbon was around 18K USD that’s with all new fittings and turnbuckles, we just did the side rigging for now. I believe rod for my boat would have come in around 14k, and I got a quote for EC6 at 34k.

Can you use that LightSpeed rod as a headstay with soft hanks on the jib?

 

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1 hour ago, Wagonmonster said:

Retail for the carbon was around 18K USD that’s with all new fittings and turnbuckles, we just did the side rigging for now. I believe rod for my boat would have come in around 14k, and I got a quote for EC6 at 34k.

14k is wicked high for rod. A j42 would be around 7k

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36 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Can you use that LightSpeed rod as a headstay with soft hanks on the jib?

 

As long as it was covered I don’t see why not, shoot them as email and see. I’ll be doing my headstay this summer. 

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If the service life of carbon  is indeed twice that of rod then the carbons high price is acceptable 

I’ve seen 6 year old superyacht carbon hold up very well

only time will tell 

 

i would avoid a  naked ,no foil , carbon headstay if longevity is a goal 

did the carbon rigging supplier give any insight into lightning strike behavior 

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Gentlemen, with hat in hand I am hear to say I misspoke. 
 

estimate for new continuous rod rigging for a j42 was $4,800.

 

estimate for new discontinuous rod rigging with new tip cups and turnbuckles for a class 40 was in the 8 grand range. 
 

my apologies 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

If the service life of carbon  is indeed twice that of rod then the carbons high price is acceptable 

I’ve seen 6 year old superyacht carbon hold up very well

only time will tell 

 

i would avoid a  naked ,no foil , carbon headstay if longevity is a goal 

did the carbon rigging supplier give any insight into lightning strike behavior 

Current consensus on lightning strikes with carbon laterals is the energy is more likely to travel through mast cabling than any other conduit, particularly if you put in a purpose-fitted strike cable, or upgrade an existing cable/fittings to take that role.

 

HW

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21 hours ago, Wagonmonster said:

 

This is something I have heard as well, but so far no issues. I know Carbo Link has been manufacturing solid bare carbon cables for years and Future Fibres adds a chafe sleeve over there bundled rod EC6, so two schools of thought here. Light Speed offered me a chafe technora cover over my lowers, and that would have stopped any chafe issues, but we decided to go bare. Our schedule 2021/ 2022 ( COVID permitting) is transat east, Fastnet, Middle Sea, RORC transat back and C600,  so rigging is going to get a workout.  I’ll be sure to report any chafe issues I see, but so far nothing. 

Worth noting EC6 cover is as much about maintaining the rod bundle orientation as chafe protection. One gybe with grippy sheets will go through the technora, but not affect the carbon.

 

HW

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11 minutes ago, Haligonian Winterr said:

Current consensus on lightning strikes with carbon laterals is the energy is more likely to travel through mast cabling than any other conduit, particularly if you put in a purpose-fitted strike cable, or upgrade an existing cable/fittings to take that role.

 

HW

 On the carbon mast , carbon rigging Spar  I saw in the workshop  ....that was struck by lighting  ... the surge traveled down the aluminum mainsail car track... stopped  at the track end , then  arced to the  metal shroud  deck chainplate ...burning  a hole in the side of the mast at the end of the track 

if you have an alum track you might think about using this as a conductor to the keel with a short length of copper cable 

With your carbon rigging , when on a tack at full power , how much slack is in the leeward rigging ?

with rod , stretch makes the leeward rigging slack 

without leeward  rigging tension the spreaders loose  compression loading and flop around....  leading to  spreader root failure and rigging popping out of the top spreader tip

common  issues with your type of super wide shroud base rigging 

 

With carbon the low  stretch might address this spreader root , tip issue 

how slack is the leeward rigging ?

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1 hour ago, yoyo said:

I'm curious how they deal with UV on the lightspeed uncovered stuff.  Id think there is a UV coating.  Did they provide a UV exposure lifespan?

The manufactures state that  UV resistant resin is used 

addition protection is clear coat varnish , with wax used for routine maintenance   

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Is the carbon rod stiffer than steel? Most of the literature lists uni carbon/epoxy laminate as having about 1/2 the modulus of steel, unless very exotic carbon is used. What do the carbon rigging manufacturers claim for modulus? The specific modulus of carbon is much higher, but that isn't what we are talking about here. 

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

Is the carbon rod stiffer than steel? Most of the literature lists uni carbon/epoxy laminate as having about 1/2 the modulus of steel, unless very exotic carbon is used. What do the carbon rigging manufacturers claim for modulus? The specific modulus of carbon is much higher, but that isn't what we are talking about here. 

Many different modulus carbon fibers   and resins are used

 

My data is  from The Mets  is a few years old , this literature states 230 to 324 GPa modulus carbon is commonly used 

carbon rigging is highly engineered and is produced with  variety of layups 

carbon standing rigging  is designed to handle tension loading , compression loading on the leeward , slack , shrouds causes  laminate buckling and failure 

Round profile  carbon rigging is also prone to vibration delamination 

flexible resins  , fiber modulus and foil shaped profiles  can Be used  by engineers to address these issues 

best to ask the manufacture  or a structural engineer for clarification 

And don’t let your  carbon rigging sing when at rest, use foam insulators  

 

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300 GPa is a little higher than steel, but that is the raw carbon. Laminate is always less, usually the best you can do is about 1/2 the raw carbon. 

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48 minutes ago, DDW said:

300 GPa is a little higher than steel, but that is the raw carbon. Laminate is always less, usually the best you can do is about 1/2 the raw carbon. 

I think that nitronic rod is around 200 gpa     Remember carbon rigging is either continuous Filament  or a bundle of 1mm  pultruded carbon rods , of the same length,  epoxied into an end fitting 

very little movement in these laminates

another issue with rod in memory 

rod comes from the factory in coils 

the coiled rod must then be “ straightened “ , an imprecise manual task that leaves the  straightened rod with many wiggles that can only be pulled out , stretched , with rigging tension 

from what I see carbon rigging is so stable and so precisely made  that race boats no longer use turnbuckles , only shimmed Clevis  pins 

I suspect that as price falls even club level racer cruisers will shift to carbon rigging 

 

07A2B396-3B4F-43A2-B223-79EAD0B10503.png

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9 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 On the carbon mast , carbon rigging Spar  I saw in the workshop  ....that was struck by lighting  ... the surge traveled down the aluminum mainsail car track... stopped  at the track end , then  arced to the  metal shroud  deck chainplate ...burning  a hole in the side of the mast at the end of the track 

if you have an alum track you might think about using this as a conductor to the keel with a short length of copper cable 

With your carbon rigging , when on a tack at full power , how much slack is in the leeward rigging ?

with rod , stretch makes the leeward rigging slack 

without leeward  rigging tension the spreaders loose  compression loading and flop around....  leading to  spreader root failure and rigging popping out of the top spreader tip

common  issues with your type of super wide shroud base rigging 

 

With carbon the low  stretch might address this spreader root , tip issue 

how slack is the leeward rigging ?

Bonding wire between spare or dedicated aerial, mast track, and keel is common in VO65s, 70s and IMOCAs

 

HW

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1 minute ago, Haligonian Winterr said:

Bonding wire between spare or dedicated aerial, mast track, and keel is common in VO65s, 70s and IMOCAs

 

HW

Sounds logical

 I think many gran prix spars avoid aluminum backing plates and aluminum mast tracks 

I’m not sure how they deal with this earth issue 

 

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7 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I think that nitronic rod is around 200 gpa     Remember carbon rigging is either continuous Filament  or a bundle of 1mm  pultruded carbon rods , of the same length,  epoxied into an end fitting 

very little movement in these laminates

another issue with rod in memory 

rod comes from the factory in coils 

the coiled rod must then be “ straightened “ , an imprecise manual task that leaves the  straightened rod with many wiggles that can only be pulled out , stretched , with rigging tension 

from what I see carbon rigging is so stable and so precisely made  that race boats no longer use turnbuckles , only shimmed Clevis  pins 

I suspect that as price falls even club level racer cruisers will shift to carbon rigging 

 

07A2B396-3B4F-43A2-B223-79EAD0B10503.png

Damn that looks good.

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9 hours ago, yoyo said:

I'm curious how they deal with UV on the lightspeed uncovered stuff.  Id think there is a UV coating.  Did they provide a UV exposure lifespan?

Carbon is inert to U/V.  The resin may need a U/V inhibitor.  A physical barrier is better, IMHO.  This could be something as simple as paint, a braided sleeve, shrink tubing, or even a spiraled wrap of electrical tape.  

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12 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Carbon is inert to U/V.  The resin may need a U/V inhibitor.  A physical barrier is better, IMHO.  This could be something as simple as paint, a braided sleeve, shrink tubing, or even a spiraled wrap of electrical tape.  

One of the goals with carbon rigging is windage reduction   ... fewer terminals, fittings , foil profiles

Sacrificial Covers equal added windage 

i see the riggers wiping down the carbon with a  black ,water thin fluid 

I believe the concoction contains SI-14 nano particles that block UV 

 

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

I think that nitronic rod is around 200 gpa     Remember carbon rigging is either continuous Filament  or a bundle of 1mm  pultruded carbon rods , of the same length,  epoxied into an end fitting 

That's about right for steel. To do better they'd need to achieve a packing rate of about 70%, possible with small pultruded rods. Are you saying some of it has no resin at all, just terminated linear tows?

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As far as I know they all have resin 

from one manufactures brochure 2015

im sure things have moved forward 

 

Thermoset Carbon (TSC) rigging (the rigid system) is designed for use as standing rigging. It’s made by looping a single continuous epoxy prepreg tow around two titanium end-terminations mounted apart from one another at a fixed distance equal to the specified cable length — a system Future Fibres notes was pioneered in 1996 by company founder Tom Hutchinson. The carbon fiber is HexTow IM9, from Hexcel (Stamford, CT, US), with a 303 GPa tensile modulus, slightly higher than that of Toray’s T800. The looped cable is loaded under tension, shrink-taped to consolidate the layup, and then cured in an oven ramped up at intervals to 180°C for two to four hours. TSC cables terminate in a small end-diameter, which helps to reduce windage, that is, the frictional force created by air on an object. The end size depends on the application; for a high-performance racing design, such as a Grand Prix Transpac 52-class (TP52) yacht, the first cable  (running from the deck to the first spreader on the mast) would be about 9.3 mm in diameter. Its breaking strength would be approximately 13,400 kg. 

 

 

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That is higher tech fab than I might have guessed, the prestretch while curing would help maintain the modulus, but it still doesn't answer what the modulus of the finished material is. The manufacturers all seem kind of cagey on this, not mentioning it in published literature that I can find (this includes the OPs company). If they are getting away with shim tuning, then it must be fairly stiff, wonder why they don't quote some figures? Surely they have tested it?

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Having used carbolink rigging a lot I would certainly say carbon rigging is extremely chafe resistant, and happily use bare carbon headstay with hanks.

 

running sheets and drop lines over the headstay has also caused no issues yet

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I'm looking into the Lightspeed stuff for a new build project and just want to say that a lot of the photos and examples being posted here are older products and techniques so somewhat like an apples to oranges comparison. Just spent a couple of hours on the phone with the sales rep and really like what I heard. Also like the pricing and lead times!

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11 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

I'm looking into the Lightspeed stuff for a new build project and just want to say that a lot of the photos and examples being posted here are older products and techniques so somewhat like an apples to oranges comparison. Just spent a couple of hours on the phone with the sales rep and really like what I heard. Also like the pricing and lead times!

The week links with  carbon rigging are the metal terminals 

investigate  these 

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4 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

The week links with  carbon rigging are the metal terminals 

investigate  these 

Will do Slug, I will inquire further but what I was just told in that LightSpeed uses a Ti thimble and a single carbon uni roving is wound around the two thimbles and then pre-tensioned before the epoxy matrix is infused or whatever magic they use. I was told that the end result is impact resistant yet still flexible enough to be rolled for shipping in a 5' diameter coil. Technora braided cover for headstays and soft hanks should play well together. The Ti turnbuckle sure look slick and well integrated. Lead times are way less that continuous wound cables from Sri Lanka which is a big factor to me.

    Here are a lashing eye with soft hole edges for use with loups and a clevis pin thimble with a molded protective housing that looks pretty substantial. 

    Where did you find that photo of the shim tension fitting above? Is that adjusted by a cam or actually using shims. Looks like a eccentric cam to me with the stop pins.

Image result for light speed carbon rigging

 

On 2/3/2021 at 5:49 PM, slug zitski said:

 

 

07A2B396-3B4F-43A2-B223-79EAD0B10503.png

 

     Not much adjustment with that setup and I would guess that this would be used with a hydraulic mast ram on a race boat.

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3 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Will do Slug, I will inquire further but what I was just told in that LightSpeed uses a Ti thimble and a single carbon uni roving is wound around the two thimbles and then pre-tensioned before the epoxy matrix is infused or whatever magic they use. I was told that the end result is impact resistant yet still flexible enough to be rolled for shipping in a 5' diameter coil. Technora braided cover for headstays and soft hanks should play well together. The Ti turnbuckle sure look slick and well integrated. Lead times are way less that continuous wound cables from Sri Lanka which is a big factor to me.

    Here are a lashing eye with soft hole edges for use with loups and a clevis pin thimble with a molded protective housing that looks pretty substantial. 

    Where did you find that photo of the shim tension fitting above? Is that adjusted by a cam or actually using shims. Looks like a eccentric cam to me with the stop pins.

Image result for light speed carbon rigging

 

 

     Not much adjustment with that setup and I would guess that this would be used with a hydraulic mast ram on a race boat.

Yah 

mast jack and precise shims 

 

you must investigate the terminals

Titanium resists corrosion 

stainless suffers crevice corrosion over time 

 

 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Yah 

mast jack and precise shims 

 

you must investigate the terminals

Titanium resists corrosion 

stainless suffers crevice corrosion over time 

 

 

End fittings are Ti. Wound bobbins are generally foolproof, the potted cones are another story.

 

HW

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  • 8 months later...

In case you were considering this for your rig, here's a Facebook post from Ocean Racers who used Light Speed Carbon rigging. I believe this is the Pogo 12.50 above, aka Wagonmonster.

https://www.facebook.com/430825243740518/posts/2052279701595056/

PSA: The facts of the matter. 

It’s said there are 3 sides to every story: yours, theirs, and the truth. Well, we are only ever interested in the truth, and to be fair, we’ve given the manufacturer the opportunity to be part of the solution, but they chose not to be.

When our carbon rigging was installed in December 2020, a lot of public statements and claims were made. The LS Carbon we installed on Hermes was marketed to us and the public as “offshore-capable,” “rugged,” “durable,” and with a lifespan of “15+ years.”

The manufacturer now claims our version of their rigging is not the current on the market, and an additional integrated layer of Technora fiber added in late March 2021 to the product line would combat any chafe issues. We, however, do not believe that the bare LS Carbon, even with the added Technora fibers, would have prevented this failure based on our experiences.

Regardless of which version of LS Carbon rigging this is, it was expected for the manufacturer to stand by their original claims and promises. Even if they consider this to be the first generation of their product… or however they want to classify our LS Carbon rigging to the public ONLY after it has failed. 

Based on our experiences, racing and sailing over 250,000 NM combined around the world, and our experiences with LS Carbon, we cannot endorse this product for offshore use. Despite our candid disclosures to the public causing me legal stress, I cannot in good conscience stay silent. What we experienced offshore, we would not wish on anyone. 

The only people who truly know what happened were the 8 people that were onboard, and the sole individual responsible for building this product and making the claims that put our boat and lives at risk. 

Here are the photos for you all to make your own deductions and conclusions. What failed? I’ll let you decide. But I can stand by it was not my Dacron mainsail or fiberglass batten that couldn’t keep their shit together…

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11 hours ago, GbayCup1888 said:

In case you were considering this for your rig, here's a Facebook post from Ocean Racers who used Light Speed Carbon rigging. I believe this is the Pogo 12.50 above, aka Wagonmonster.

https://www.facebook.com/430825243740518/posts/2052279701595056/

PSA: The facts of the matter. 

It’s said there are 3 sides to every story: yours, theirs, and the truth. Well, we are only ever interested in the truth, and to be fair, we’ve given the manufacturer the opportunity to be part of the solution, but they chose not to be.

When our carbon rigging was installed in December 2020, a lot of public statements and claims were made. The LS Carbon we installed on Hermes was marketed to us and the public as “offshore-capable,” “rugged,” “durable,” and with a lifespan of “15+ years.”

The manufacturer now claims our version of their rigging is not the current on the market, and an additional integrated layer of Technora fiber added in late March 2021 to the product line would combat any chafe issues. We, however, do not believe that the bare LS Carbon, even with the added Technora fibers, would have prevented this failure based on our experiences.

Regardless of which version of LS Carbon rigging this is, it was expected for the manufacturer to stand by their original claims and promises. Even if they consider this to be the first generation of their product… or however they want to classify our LS Carbon rigging to the public ONLY after it has failed. 

Based on our experiences, racing and sailing over 250,000 NM combined around the world, and our experiences with LS Carbon, we cannot endorse this product for offshore use. Despite our candid disclosures to the public causing me legal stress, I cannot in good conscience stay silent. What we experienced offshore, we would not wish on anyone. 

The only people who truly know what happened were the 8 people that were onboard, and the sole individual responsible for building this product and making the claims that put our boat and lives at risk. 

Here are the photos for you all to make your own deductions and conclusions. What failed? I’ll let you decide. But I can stand by it was not my Dacron mainsail or fiberglass batten that couldn’t keep their shit together…

Looks like the fully battened mainsail chafed thru the shroud 

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Hello. In full disclosure, my name is Brian and you can easily find my information if you are looking. 

This new  Fake account is clearly made or farmed out by Meg. It was just created, with the sole purpose of trolling. 

Meg, please don't do this. I'm begging you to look into your soul. I have nothing to hide, nothing to lose and have remained neutral in this childish spat. 

You will literally kill yourself with all this hate in your heart. 

Delete this fake account Gbaycup1888, made only and solely for the purpose of trolling this single story. 

Do the right thing. 

Brian

 

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To be clear, 

Gbaycup1888 is a Fake Trolling account. 

Gbaycup was created 11 hours ago to spew venom on SA. 

I wasn't referring to any other accounts on this thread, and a apologize for any misunderstanding. 

The fake account is Gbaycup1888, not any other. 

Please meg, do not respond to this post. Just delete the account.

Brian (aka Burley)

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Max, 

I know both parties involved in this saga. They are both friends and I have struggled to stay neutral. 

One party is making it impossible to do so.  

I'm begging them to stop, and still trying hard to stay out of it, before it turns into a massive lawsuit. 

Having been down that path, I can assure you, no one wins but the lawyers. It consumed 5 years of my life and nearly destroyed my well being, career and marriage. Thankfully, it all stayed intact and is the reason I am pleading with both parties. 

Go to the manufacturer's website.

B

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Your refusal to answer the simple question begs your veracity, sir

It appears that you were content to accept the team’s endorsement and now that they have suffered a failure you are reticent to accept their continued public statements. One must take the bad with the good.

As it happens, I am in the market for rigging. But not from Light Speed, I see.

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Max, 

It is difficult to remain neutral on this forum, which I desperately would like to do, as both parties are friends. 

Go to:

https://lightspeedrigging.com/contact/

And read the manufacturer's response to the social media.

I am not on social media, at all.  Haven't been for years.  I read SA, get my news from WTOP, and just talk to friends instead of having them on the internet. 

I am happy to discuss this with you offline. 

My goal is to have these parties stop the childish behavior before it become costly. 

Feel free to private message me. You've been on SA for a long time, so you should easily be able to spot a shill on this forum. 

Thanks, 

Brian

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Max said...

Your refusal to answer the simple question begs your veracity, sir

It appears that you were content to accept the team’s endorsement and now that they have suffered a failure you are reticent to accept their continued public statements. One must take the bad with the good.

As it happens, I am in the market for rigging. But not from Light Speed, I see.

My reply...

 

Max, 

I'm not sure if you are confusing me with someone else.  I didn't accept any team's endorsement. I don't even know of any team. 

If you are talking about Ocean Racers, they are not a team.  They are a couple of nice folks that started a company that takes folks on sailing races.  It is like people that want to go to a dude ranch.  It gives them an experience without having to invest in our passion of sailing. Just like you can ride the horse for the weekend but not have to buy it, (or the ranch!).

I laud Ocean Racers for coming up with the scheme and developing a following. But I do not have a dog in this fight. And am trying to not have the fight happen at all. 

So I have nothing to do with endorsements, but have a lot to say about their "continued public statements".

Your continued conversation with me makes it difficult to stay neutral. 

Please, PM me and we can discuss away from here.  I have nothing to hide and no agenda - other than having my friends on both sides stop this pathetic washing of their dirty laundry. 

I haven't read any of your previous posts, but did see the number of posts you have made, which means you've been active on the site.  If you are legit, PM me and I'll honestly and openly answer your questions. 

If you are really looking for new rigging, and not a couple halyards, PM me. That is, if you really want to know the truth. Otherwise your comment about the rigging looks a bit more like going to an Audi dealer and test driving an R8, with a budget for an A4.

Please, bring it offline and PM me. 

Leave this shitmess to the parties involved. Or better yet, let it die here.  Because, thankfully, the troll has stayed silent. 

B

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Max. I gotta ask, who are you and why are you haven't you personal messaged me?  

I'm pretty pissed off that you would insert yourself in this string and not follow up.  

Are you really looking for rigging?  Are you really a serious sailor? I looked at your posts and you weigh in on a lot of random stuff but don't have anything about real sailing. 

I'm interested in helping my friends - all of them. You posted this stuff and then went on siesta.  

The stuff on your profile reeks of a psuedoprofile - a person that posts a bunch of stuff but that's it. I looked at your generic photos and suspect this is a troll bot.

Stop willfully injecting yourself in this dispute that you know nothing about. 

If you are real, as in a real person, as in a real sailor, PM me. 

Otherwise, stay out of this on the forum, and give me the opportunity to repair the damage that the troll Gbaycup1888 has purposefully posted to injure my friends.

Gbaycup1888 is clearly a troll.  If you are not, HAVE THE VERACITY to PM me. 

B

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It was just created, with the sole purpose of trolling. 

Many people share their experience with a product to other potential users and that is not trolling.   Taking a situation to the "court of public opinion" is a tactic that is often used as a last resort when the customer feels they were left high and dry.

Quote

I'm pretty pissed off that you would insert yourself in this string and not follow up.  

You certainly don't sound like you DON'T have a direct interest in this.    

Quote

Are you really looking for rigging?  Are you really a serious sailor? I looked at your posts and you weigh in on a lot of random stuff but don't have anything about real sailing. 

You are sounding like a real asshat buddy with your repeated demands and they answer to you, even though you state you are not a direct party to this.

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Again, geez, please take this offline. 

Solo sailor, it is a court of public opinion, agree.  But there is nothing remotely close to a "customer left high and dry".

I DO have a direct interest in this. They are all my friends!

But, they are a couple of whining children, and I'm hoping to keep them from years of lawsuits.  I've been there, no one wins. 

Please PM me. You've been around long enough. If these folks are real they shouldn't be afraid to engage in a mature conversation, without the splenetic vitriol, via private message. 

Same with you.  We share the same interests, especially solo sailing.  I've read your stuff for years.  So let's talk offline. Nothing to lose, right?

B

 

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Will, I haven't attacked anyone's credentials.  I have no intention of it, and won't attack yours, of course.

Surely you'll take me up on the offer to discuss this offline.  

Please, PM me and be open to dialogue.  I have no agenda - nothing to hide.  I keep making the offer but no one so far has shown the courtesy.

Pretty easy to go to the website and see LightSpeed response to the Facebook and Insta posts from the other party.  (And yeah, to save time...I don't have accounts on any of those sights, nor do I look at other people's phones, etc).  But it becomes easy to see the whole thing when folks are sharing a cut and paste of the entire story or whatever you call it.  Look at both sides please. 

It should be easy for any open minded person to reach out to me.  How can someone disagree with a discussion?  I have no agenda, other than keeping my mutual friends out of the courtroom.  Trust me, I know them all very well and they don't want this.

Offline please.

B

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Popcorn anyone?

Why are you here Brian? Why don't you contact them off line? Looks like the genie is out of the bottle and you're not going to shove it back in.

 

I wonder if the manufacturer has any email or other documents to Ocean Racer saying "this is a set of prototype rigging and must/should be changed after X months or XX miles of sailing" i.e. long term use as they describe in their posting. If so, that would be a convincing argument that Ocean Racers ignored their advice.

The rigging company's statement:

You may have seen recent postings and photos from owners of a boat who had agreed in late 2020 to participate (at no charge) in a test of an early iteration of our rigging, then still under development.  While those posts report that the rigging on that boat broke this past October, that rigging was a prototype installed as part of the testing phase of the product, while it was still under development; It is not our final rigging product. But was only a bare-carbon test product.  The prototype lacked the protective UV coating and also lacked the Technora anti-abrasion covering that our current product features.   In  fact, the owners specially asked that “bare carbon,” without any coatings, be used.  Of course, the point of developing and testing prototypes is to see where improvements are needed, and we in fact made significant improvements to our product in that regard.  The prototype described in the posts was never intended for long-term use.  Why the owners did not replace the prototype with either our current product or standard rigging has not been disclosed, and we recently sustained a parting of the ways that has made communications into that subject problematic.  Indeed, they previously stated, in writing, that the test rigging had to be replaced.  But, they did not replace it and instead took it into the open ocean.  They now complain that it failed and are making it out that the product is defective.  It is not.  From what we have been able to discern from the postings, the battens of the mainsail were allowed to chafe against the leeward prototype rigging in heavy reaching conditions and ultimately severed the unprotected, bare carbon test rigging.  This is not a structural failure but rather a chafe issue, which should not a problem with our current, protected carbon rigging.  This material information was omitted from the recent postings pertaining to this incident.

We are very pleased with our current protected carbon rigging offering, and we will continue to innovate to bring unique and robust products to the market.  We invite you to contact us if you have any questions or would like more information.

 
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Never answered my question directly and then went ad hominem on me… ONYA, bruh

@BurleyIf you want to say something to me in regards the veracity of the FB posting, it is public as should be your response. I continue to await the answer. Nothing I have said warranted your above response.

One wonders if @Burley actually works for Lightspeed or if Lightspeed is cognizant of his efforts.

AFAIC, sail chafing on shrouds is not uncommon. If these cats, even in the first iteration, didn’t give thought to that possibility (or the possibility of sheet chafe etc) then their engineering is IMO suspect. But wait…

@Wagonmonsterabove did say: “Light Speed offered me a chafe technora cover over my lowers, and that would have stopped any chafe issues, but we decided to go bare.”

@Sailabout I’m contemplating carbon with my Hydranet sails… shit man, weight aloft is always worth getting rid of, no?

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This is the second time a representative of the manufacturer has come after me on a public forum, spreading lies in attempt to cover up the truth.

 
First, why would I create a “fake” SA account in order to repost something I already wrote publicly on Facebook? I’m not the one with stuff to hide.
 
Second, Ocean Racers and the rest of the public would like to see these official correspondences from the manufacturer when/where they allegedly informed us their product would no longer function as originally marketed to us? The claim that we knew it was “never intended for long-term use” or were ever told by manufacturer it was unsuitable for our needs, is completely untrue and disparagement.
 
Manufacturer’s representatives keep demanding the public take these open conversations offline, I assume to continue to muddy the truth and tell more lies that cannot be openly disproven. Like this claim that the team knew about the LS Carbon rigging no longer being “offshore capable” “rugged” and “durable” as we were originally told upon install in December 2020 — untrue.
 
We know and have disclosed that our version is not the current version of LS Carbon rigging on the market, but the manufacturer never disclosed the supposed “terms” of our product use beyond what was originally marketed to us and the public in December 2020. No manufacturer’s terms of use, limitations, or any recall was ever made. 
 
The manufacturer cannot produce this supposed LS Carbon rigging recall documentations they claim absolves the company of any liability, because no such documents exist or were ever presented to us. 
 
This was a delivery sail down to the Bahamas (hence Dacrons) so the boat was not racing or doing anything beyond normal use that would void a Manufacturer’s warranty. Also, our boat has 30 degree swept-back spreaders, so it is not possible to keep the mainsail off the rigging; the manufacturer knew this and installed it himself. 
 
Two major failures happened on behalf of the manufacturer, which led me with no other option than public forum. We also had previously publicly endorsed this product, and we had a duty to share our experience with our network. You get “the good with the bad.”
 
  1. Product failed under normal use, and was not capable of performing as originally advertised to us.
  2. When the manufacturer was contacted at sea for comment and plan of action for support (such as promised insurance coverage, warranty, etc), the response I received was their lawyer with threats. 
 
So there were manufacturing/engineering failures (1), followed by a customer service failure (2). 
 
Personally, I am really sadden and shocked by the behavior of the company who wants to try and now paint me as the villain because taking these issues to a public forum is “taboo.” We are not composites experts nor engineers, so we only went by and trusted the guidance of the manufacturer and his claims. It’s sickening that the company’s money at risk seemingly supersedes lives at risk here… 

 

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11 minutes ago, megriles said:

 

This is the second time a representative of the manufacturer has come after me on a public forum, spreading lies in attempt to cover up the truth.

 
First, why would I create a “fake” SA account in order to repost something I already wrote publicly on Facebook? I’m not the one with stuff to hide.
 
Second, Ocean Racers and the rest of the public would like to see these official correspondences from the manufacturer when/where they allegedly informed us their product would no longer function as originally marketed to us? The claim that we knew it was “never intended for long-term use” or were ever told by manufacturer it was unsuitable for our needs, is completely untrue and disparagement.
 
Manufacturer’s representatives keep demanding the public take these open conversations offline, I assume to continue to muddy the truth and tell more lies that cannot be openly disproven. Like this claim that the team knew about the LS Carbon rigging no longer being “offshore capable” “rugged” and “durable” as we were originally told upon install in December 2020 — untrue.
 
We know and have disclosed that our version is not the current version of LS Carbon rigging on the market, but the manufacturer never disclosed the supposed “terms” of our product use beyond what was originally marketed to us and the public in December 2020. No manufacturer’s terms of use, limitations, or any recall was ever made. 
 
The manufacturer cannot produce this supposed LS Carbon rigging recall documentations they claim absolves the company of any liability, because no such documents exist or were ever presented to us. 
 
This was a delivery sail down to the Bahamas (hence Dacrons) so the boat was not racing or doing anything beyond normal use that would void a Manufacturer’s warranty. Also, our boat has 30 degree swept-back spreaders, so it is not possible to keep the mainsail off the rigging; the manufacturer knew this and installed it himself. 
 
Two major failures happened on behalf of the manufacturer, which led me with no other option than public forum. We also had previously publicly endorsed this product, and we had a duty to share our experience with our network. You get “the good with the bad.”
 
  1. Product failed under normal use, and was not capable of performing as originally advertised to us.
  2. When the manufacturer was contacted at sea for comment and plan of action for support (such as promised insurance coverage, warranty, etc), the response I received was their lawyer with threats. 
 
So there were manufacturing/engineering failures (1), followed by a customer service failure (2). 
 
Personally, I am really sadden and shocked by the behavior of the company who wants to try and now paint me as the villain because taking these issues to a public forum is “taboo.” We are not composites experts nor engineers, so we only went by and trusted the guidance of the manufacturer and his claims. It’s sickening that the company’s money at risk seemingly supersedes lives at risk here… 

 

Did the mainsail chafe thru the shroud 

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2 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Never answered my question directly and then went ad hominem on me… ONYA, bruh

@BurleyIf you want to say something to me in regards the veracity of the FB posting, it is public as should be your response. I continue to await the answer. Nothing I have said warranted your above response.

One wonders if @Burley actually works for Lightspeed or if Lightspeed is cognizant of his efforts.

AFAIC, sail chafing on shrouds is not uncommon. If these cats, even in the first iteration, didn’t give thought to that possibility (or the possibility of sheet chafe etc) then their engineering is IMO suspect. But wait…

@Wagonmonsterabove did say: “Light Speed offered me a chafe technora cover over my lowers, and that would have stopped any chafe issues, but we decided to go bare.”

@Sailabout I’m contemplating carbon with my Hydranet sails… shit man, weight aloft is always worth getting rid of, no?

If I was a going cruising offshore I would go the future fibres PBO route, its got the record of lasting, if it was a Cat/tri then dyneema
I race on a 52' (mono) with the thinnest foil shaped carbon I have ever seen, hard to believe it has lasted years but nothing touches it.

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17 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

If I was a going cruising offshore I would go the future fibres PBO route, its got the record of lasting, if it was a Cat/tri then dyneema
I race on a 52' (mono) with the thinnest foil shaped carbon I have ever seen, hard to believe it has lasted years but nothing touches it.

I sailed with rod shrouds and PBO diagonals 

after 18 months , perhaps 20 thousand miles , the PBO diagonals were condemned … chafe , UV 

 

cruisers racers would be wise to stay clear of high tech rigging unless they have the skill, maintenance schedule and money to use it 

the boat in question is a charter boat … poor choice 

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... a boat who had agreed in late 2020 to participate (at no charge) in a test of an early iteration of our rigging ...

Hard to know if the above, from the supplier's web site, is honest or accurate, but let's assume it is accurate, especially the 'at no charge' part. Regardless of what the manufacturer said, what paper trails exist, or what the customer heard or thought they heard, about the warranty or use of the product, if the rigging was given to Ocean Racers, does the supplier have any liability at all? 

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I was a designer  of carbon rigging for 10 years.  The best option on high chafe is rod, if you are going to go the carbon route and not Grand Prix Future FIbres EC6 is the safest hands down.  All carbon rigging suffers from chafe, carbon chafe tubes I found to be the best option.  Technora doesn't work so well on V1s or headstays with high speed lines passing by.

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