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Mega-broach-1024x571.jpg

There’s much fun to be had searching this photo in detail for clues as to how the crew of the Swan 45 arrived at their predicament. But the poor bloke in the bow has had enough - he can’t bear to even look… Find any clues?

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There are obviously too many crew on the leeward side of the boat - hidden by the wave. Only two to windward - the bowman and the one by the cabin trunk.  Six or eight guys on the starboard rail - that must be why they're heeled so far over. 

They also seem quite close to shore in a deep-draft boat.  Is she aground, with the skipper trying to heel the boat over to get her off the sandbar? Seems to be working.

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Looks like the helmsman is down and back stay guy is on the wheel.

That's a messy foredeck that is about to lose the jib!

Is the inboard end of the pole not up high enough? Which would mean they crashed just preparing for the jibe...

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My guess is it all went bad right as they were about to gybe--which is why a foredecker in the pulpit and the foreguy tripped. They broached and that pole got hydroswooshed aft. At some point someone eased the sheet but not enough to stop the madness. IT may have made it worse. They need the halyard eased now.

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12 minutes ago, tpmsail said:

Looks like the spin sheet is on top of the mast WTF

No one told the cockpit crew that it wasn't an asymmetrical chute, so they let it out, thinking it was supposed to gybe 'round the luff of the sail.

 

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Yes, probably getting ready to gybe. Shouldn't be anyone forward unless that was the case. Or just the bowman going forward made her hard to steer and the boat did a death roll to starboard because she was too far by the lee, put the pole in the water and that broke the foreguy. The line from the masthead is probably the pole lift. Lucky the pole didn't break. Even luckier the shroud didn't break.

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Pictures from James Robinson Taylor . Raced in Scarlino Tuscany Italy . Race only for Swan 45 2006 or 2007 15/20 knots and gusts 35/ 40knots , I was the security boat.  This Swan 45 was Vixen .

An other pic in the same time .

crash01b.jpg

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1 hour ago, Puntone said:

Pictures from James Robinson Taylor . Raced in Scarlino Tuscany Italy . Race only for Swan 45 2006 or 2007 15/20 knots and gusts 35/ 40knots , I was the security boat.  This Swan 45 was Vixen .

An other pic in the same time .

crash01b.jpg

Clearly looks like a shift and/or gust. Everyone is going down

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3 hours ago, Puntone said:

Pictures from James Robinson Taylor . Raced in Scarlino Tuscany Italy . Race only for Swan 45 2006 or 2007 15/20 knots and gusts 35/ 40knots , I was the security boat.  This Swan 45 was Vixen .

An other pic in the same time .

crash01b.jpg

It's obviously a ballet.

Swan Lake, to be precise.

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7 hours ago, Editor said:

Mega-broach-1024x571.jpg

There’s much fun to be had searching this photo in detail for clues as to how the crew of the Swan 45 arrived at their predicament. But the poor bloke in the bow has had enough - he can’t bear to even look… Find any clues?

It’s time to release “The Samurai” from down below to initiate the takedown before “The Deity” arrives to finish the job the crew started!

- Stumbling 

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Try again.

 

Pole has not skied, so fore guy is on. Spi sheets visible across forestay, all correct. Something loose dangling from mast, probably headsail halyard lost by bow guy. The pic with two boats in it seems slightly earlier in the broach, it looks like boats have just rounded & set. Lead boat seems to have pole sticking to leeward (stbd) so both have (are) jibe broaching in a big puff. Given how close to shore they are, big direction change with puff likely. Also from first pic - spi short of full hoist, top of  jib maybe still in headfoil.

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9 hours ago, tpmsail said:

Looks like the spin sheet is on top of the mast WTF

That's the lazy runner.  

That boom is coming acros sin 3...2....1...keep your head down and be glad you aren't the owner.

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14 hours ago, PaulK said:

There are obviously too many crew on the leeward side of the boat - hidden by the wave. Only two to windward - the bowman and the one by the cabin trunk.  Six or eight guys on the starboard rail - that must be why they're heeled so far over. 

They also seem quite close to shore in a deep-draft boat.  Is she aground, with the skipper trying to heel the boat over to get her off the sandbar? Seems to be working.

No sandbar . free water

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21 minutes ago, gkny said:

Maybe the sheet was way too eased and the chute way too far out to windward for the puff

Sheet eased too much, vang a little too loose, driver out of synch as he's watching the drama on the foredeck.... next thing you know....

FB- Doug

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They were on starboard tack setting up to jibe and got nailed with a massive gust The spinnaker pole is pinned against the starboard rigging with the end most likely in the water since the guy released from the jaw. Missing is the next frame showing the rig going down when they jibe ( the chute pulling the stern around) and the boom slams over. 

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What Longy and gkny said, sheet is over-eased for the windy conditions, mainsail too. Driver also sailing too deep. Best to keep the pole under-squared and the sheet in a few feet to keep the spinnaker in front of the boat, so the windward luff curl of the spinnaker doesn't heel the boat to windward. Same with keeping the main in a bit in order to maintain heel to the leeward side. Bad ju-ju to lose it to windward like this. Key in this situation is to not ease the spin sheet when the boat heels to windward. Best save would be to ease the starboard spin sheet and collapse the sail, which is likely to get the boat back on its feet. I think the pole is under water. Hopefully, the foreguy is tight enough to keep the pole from being broken by the starboard shroud.

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You ought not ease the sheet that way . . . Mmmm.

I don't reckon the mast got no reason to stay pointed upright, once the spinnaker gone that way . . . Mmmm.

Tough to know if this was precipitated by the trimmer or the driver, but the trimmer DEFINITELY made it way worse.

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On 8/30/2020 at 2:02 AM, Editor said:

Mega-broach-1024x571.jpg

There’s much fun to be had searching this photo in detail for clues as to how the crew of the Swan 45 arrived at their predicament. But the poor bloke in the bow has had enough - he can’t bear to even look… Find any clues?

Most likely because the guy who should be standing up is crawling up the cockpit floor on his belly if you look close

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12 hours ago, gkny said:

Maybe the sheet was way too eased and the chute way too far out to windward for the puff

Correct.  Eased too far ahead of the gust when they should have been sheeting in.  Then let go once the gust hit.  Trimmer error, unless the helmsperson dived down.

 

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Having been in this situation more than once the most obvious thing is that the sheet is eased about 15 feet too far. Sheet should have tweakers on at max beam and should never have been eased. Pole should be forward and foreguyed down hard to take the foot off the accelerator. It still requires a deft touch on the helm to time the gybe right, and a puff or wave at the wrong moment can throw the timing off. When you round down you oversheet the sheet and blow the guy not the other way around. 

If you would like to see a good example of how not to do it (and to lose the Nationals at the same time) watch this. It is blowing about 35ish and we are leading. The timing was thrown off by a sticky jaw. I am in the visor.

 

 

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Having been in this situation more than once the most obvious thing is that the sheet is eased about 15 feet too far. Sheet should have tweakers on at max beam and should never have been eased. Pole should be forward and foreguyed down hard to take the foot off the accelerator. It still requires a deft touch on the helm to time the gybe right, and a puff or wave at the wrong moment can throw the timing off. When you round down you oversheet the sheet and blow the guy not the other way around. 

If you would like to see a good example of how not to do it (and to lose the Nationals at the same time) watch this. It is blowing about 35ish and we are leading. The timing was thrown off by a sticky jaw. I am in the visor.

 

 

None ofvus practice off nominal rnough.

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Bow man is forward, so they were most likely gybing. Looks like the jaws were tripped, gust hit, trimmer over-eased the sheet as the shit hit the fan, end of the pole got caught by the rushing water. Hey guys -- that vang thingy is kind of useful, might want to put someone on that after you change your pants. 

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1 hour ago, NoMaintenance said:

Bow man is forward, so they were most likely gybing. Looks like the jaws were tripped, gust hit, trimmer over-eased the sheet as the shit hit the fan, end of the pole got caught by the rushing water. Hey guys -- that vang thingy is kind of useful, might want to put someone on that after you change your pants. 

Note to trimmer.... don't do that, next time

FB- Doug

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16 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Having been in this situation more than once the most obvious thing is that the sheet is eased about 15 feet too far. Sheet should have tweakers on at max beam and should never have been eased. Pole should be forward and foreguyed down hard to take the foot off the accelerator. It still requires a deft touch on the helm to time the gybe right, and a puff or wave at the wrong moment can throw the timing off. When you round down you oversheet the sheet and blow the guy not the other way around. 

If you would like to see a good example of how not to do it (and to lose the Nationals at the same time) watch this. It is blowing about 35ish and we are leading. The timing was thrown off by a sticky jaw. I am in the visor.

 

 

Just a QQ cause you had 0 stearage..  With 9??  Guys on board, could you not have gotten a genny up??  It looked like everyone was kind of stunned for the first bit, and it took forever to get the chute out.  Looked like chaos, but I assume this happens all the time off St Fancy...  Hense the wifie's,  and the phones ready to go for the exulted ones to finish as winners....  Love to hear the convo w the skippers wife when they got into the car after...  Ummmm. so WTF happened???  ;)

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Going into the gybe, the twing on the old sheet wasn't tightened.

Trimmer let the clew go way to far forward, should be able to complete a gybe with the kite centerlined.

No one tripped the pole.

Driver error (as is always the case:D)

 

BTW - If you have never done this, you're not pushing hard enough.  It's about not doing it twice in the same boat or with the same crew.

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16 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

If you can't fly a chute in 25 with gusts to 35 please avoid Northern California.

Or the Solent, or the North sea, or the Irish sea, or Perth, or Sydney, or Auckland, or Tauranga, or Table  Bay, or..........list goes on foreffingever.

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22 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Having been in this situation more than once the most obvious thing is that the sheet is eased about 15 feet too far. Sheet should have tweakers on at max beam and should never have been eased. Pole should be forward and foreguyed down hard to take the foot off the accelerator. It still requires a deft touch on the helm to time the gybe right, and a puff or wave at the wrong moment can throw the timing off. When you round down you oversheet the sheet and blow the guy not the other way around. 

If you would like to see a good example of how not to do it (and to lose the Nationals at the same time) watch this. It is blowing about 35ish and we are leading. The timing was thrown off by a sticky jaw. I am in the visor.

 

 

shitty but.. still one of the sexiest 30 something's ever built.

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2 hours ago, bigrpowr said:

,shitty but.. still one of the sexiest 30 something's ever built.

No doubt.  9 days and 22 hours, 2016 Pac Cup, in what was generally agreed to be a breeze on year.  Is there a bad Schumacher design?  

 

Rhetorical question.

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9 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

No doubt.  9 days and 22 hours, 2016 Pac Cup, in what was generally agreed to be a breeze on year.  Is there a bad Schumacher design?  

 

Rhetorical question.

We had an Express 34 before the 37, and in many many respects it was a better boat, but there aren't very many around. The 37 still has an active one design fleet around here.

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6 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

We had an Express 34 before the 37, and in many many respects it was a better boat, but there aren't very many around. The 37 still has an active one design fleet around here.

Interesting.  You are at least the third person to say this about the Express 34.  I've surveyed only one 34 and several 37's and sailed both.  But, not enough time on the 34 to really get a feel for performance.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Interesting.  You are at least the third person to say this about the Express 34.  I've surveyed only one 34 and several 37's and sailed both.  But, not enough time on the 34 to really get a feel for performance.  

 

We raced the E34 in IMS when that was a thing and boat for boat in PHRF when there were several classes like the O34 that rated level with us at 99. When that fell apart the 37 offered good one design racing, but the 34 had a more modern underbody and more modern ergonomics and was an all around better design. Love the 37 though. Much more fun to sail than the J35 although both rate 72. 

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18 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

No doubt.  9 days and 22 hours, 2016 Pac Cup, in what was generally agreed to be a breeze on year.  Is there a bad Schumacher design?  

 

Rhetorical question.

that's hauling ass, in style.

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On 8/31/2020 at 1:49 PM, SloopJonB said:

The fucking chute shouldn't have been up at all in those conditions - look at the water - foam being blown flat across the water.

Sorry, disagree. Prudent? Probably not, but the E37 guys on the bay are pedal to the metal. That was a few years after I left the fleet, but Expeditious was a damn good crew, always fighting Kame for top-spot. 

I was caretaker for Escapade for a few years. Worst boat mistake was selling her. We watched our brand new 3/4oz (new that day) disintegrate coming under the GG Bridge on a full crew farallones. Crew looked at me with that "oh shit" look, well, what're waiting for? We're the red one?

I'm sure Expeditious was right back out there (after getting the keel checked...)

 

BBS was always expensive...  I don't do that one anymore...

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7 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Sorry, disagree. Prudent? Probably not, but the E37 guys on the bay are pedal to the metal. That was a few years after I left the fleet, but Expeditious was a damn good crew, always fighting Kame for top-spot. 

I was caretaker for Escapade for a few years. Worst boat mistake was selling her. We watched our brand new 3/4oz (new that day) disintegrate coming under the GG Bridge on a full crew farallones. Crew looked at me with that "oh shit" look, well, what're waiting for? We're the red one?

I'm sure Expeditious was right back out there (after getting the keel checked...)

 

BBS was always expensive...  I don't do that one anymore...

I flew a .75 in 35 gusting 45 apparent in the transatlantic race. Not imprudent at all. Want to get there before you run out of parmalat!

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12 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Sorry, disagree. Prudent? Probably not, but the E37 guys on the bay are pedal to the metal. That was a few years after I left the fleet, but Expeditious was a damn good crew, always fighting Kame for top-spot. 

I was caretaker for Escapade for a few years. Worst boat mistake was selling her. We watched our brand new 3/4oz (new that day) disintegrate coming under the GG Bridge on a full crew farallones. Crew looked at me with that "oh shit" look, well, what're waiting for? We're the red one?

I'm sure Expeditious was right back out there (after getting the keel checked...)

 

BBS was always expensive...  I don't do that one anymore...

Thanks.

Maybe a little more context to that video. It was a very breezy day with a big ebb which kicks up a nasty, short chop. It was race 6 of 7; we were leading the race and with it our National Championship. Given the breeze we knew it was almost certain that we would crash going downwind so we were flying the 1.5. As it turned out, every boat that flew a kite broached in her gybe; we weren't the only ones. If it had been a normal broach it would have been no particular problem. The problem was that, instead of emerging crashed on port gybe as intended, we did that funky double gybe and emerged back on starboard without enough runway to recover before we hit the bricks. As tactician that was probably my fault. I got greedy looking for relief from the ebb close to shore, and an extra .5 knots of current relief was obviously not worth what happened.

As to the sail handling, I have been through that video many times frame by frame and I know what happened and why. There are very some useful lessons for heavy air gybes, but today is my kids' first day of school so that write-up will have to wait.

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50 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Thanks.

Maybe a little more context to that video. It was a very breezy day with a big ebb which kicks up a nasty, short chop. It was race 6 of 7; we were leading the race and with it our National Championship. Given the breeze we knew it was almost certain that we would crash going downwind so we were flying the 1.5. As it turned out, every boat that flew a kite broached in her gybe; we weren't the only ones. If it had been a normal broach it would have been no particular problem. The problem was that, instead of emerging crashed on port gybe as intended, we did that funky double gybe and emerged back on starboard without enough runway to recover before we hit the bricks. As tactician that was probably my fault. I got greedy looking for relief from the ebb close to shore, and an extra .5 knots of current relief was obviously not worth what happened.

As to the sail handling, I have been through that video many times frame by frame and I know what happened and why. There are very some useful lessons for heavy air gybes, but today is my kids' first day of school so that write-up will have to wait.

No Sa offense intended BTW..  We had one of those at nats a couple years ago.  Boat next to us sank...  Seriously curious...  

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On 8/31/2020 at 1:19 PM, shaggy said:

Just a QQ cause you had 0 stearage..  With 9??  Guys on board, could you not have gotten a genny up??  It looked like everyone was kind of stunned for the first bit, and it took forever to get the chute out.  Looked like chaos, but I assume this happens all the time off St Fancy...  Hense the wifie's,  and the phones ready to go for the exulted ones to finish as winners....  Love to hear the convo w the skippers wife when they got into the car after...  Ummmm. so WTF happened???  ;)

No offense taken; it was not a great day at the office.. 10 guys on board. Most of the team was focused on getting back in the race so you can see the bow team brings up another kite which is definitely the right spirit :-) But as you point out we had lost steerage while going sideways. We were a little nervous about sheeting on and going forward since we would have stepped ashore at that point so couldn't head up or bear off. With the benefit of hindsight we should have hoisted the #3 as soon as it was clear we were in trouble. Poor communication on my part I suppose. The owner/helmsman was hollering for some reason or another so my calm, quiet observations may not have carried very well. I don't know if it happens all the time, but it certainly happens frequently enough that the front row in the grill room is prepared to step back in case a Ranger 37 makes an entrance through the plate glass as happened during a one ton worlds.

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21 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

No offense taken; it was not a great day at the office.. 10 guys on board. Most of the team was focused on getting back in the race so you can see the bow team brings up another kite which is definitely the right spirit :-) But as you point out we had lost steerage while going sideways. We were a little nervous about sheeting on and going forward since we would have stepped ashore at that point so couldn't head up or bear off. With the benefit of hindsight we should have hoisted the #3 as soon as it was clear we were in trouble. Poor communication on my part I suppose. The owner/helmsman was hollering for some reason or another so my calm, quiet observations may not have carried very well. I don't know if it happens all the time, but it certainly happens frequently enough that the front row in the grill room is prepared to step back in case a Ranger 37 makes an entrance through the plate glass as happened during a one ton worlds.

:D Thanks, Best part is you got it all on film so you can go over it time and time and time and time and time and time again...  ;)

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