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Hi all - wracking my brain trying decide if the J109 is worth 50% more than the Bene 36.7.

I do PHRF racing, short- or single- handed in generally light lake wind. I'm an engineer - 'technical' sailor - racing the polars and trimming sail all the time.  We are limited to shoal draft for either (6' max on the lake) and there are few of each available now for sale.

Anyone know how they do head-to-head?  The PHRF is almost the same.

Thanks for adding your thoughts and experiences!

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Our 1981 J/36 outsails a Beneteau 36.7 SD almost every week in light air. Short-handed, the Beneteau's symmetrical spinnaker will be a handful, vs the sprit & asym on the J.  The asym will also provide great opportunities for determining the best sailing angles. The interior on the Beneteau might be nicer if you like cruising.  

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Used to own a 367, sailed against 2 109s. They where quicker for sure in most conditions. The asym a much better shorthanded option.

beni nicer downstairs (109 owners thought so too), but unless you need three cabins, you will hate every sleeping option unless you are under 5’10”

 

solid glass hull and smart use of solid glass in deck penetrations should make the 367 More durable long term. 
 

if you get a 367, get a newer one with the lowered pyramid based wheel. Otherwise you will feel incredibly jealous and remorseful every time you see one.
 

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Having crewed on both they are completely different boats. Compromises with each. I wouldn’t own either unless you can race one design with them. Personally I think the 109 is a better boat and the cost is justified. But you can find a better PHRF racer  for less money. 
 

Compromises - 36.7 - tiny cockpit for racing, the four people you need to put in there are always throwing elbows at each other. It’s a pole only boat, so more crew that have to know what they are doing. It’s roomer down below but you haul that with you on the race course. Also tall dog house always made the cockpit feel like you were sailing in a trench. 

 

Compromises - 109 - tighter and more spartan below, sprint boat so less for the crew to do however in 10knts plus need the same amount of people on the rail as the 36.7 to keep her flat/get up wind. Would argue the 109 need more sails be be competitive for long distance racing (code 0 required on 109, where as 36.7 could get away with a reacher spin).

Id personally get a 109, but only because I could One Design race it in Chicago.

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I’ve sailed a bunch on both. Mostly as a pit person/headsail trimmer. Most of the sailing I’ve done on them is point to point racing. 
 

The 367 has more interior volume for sure, though they are both comfortable. Symmetrical kites are fun and for distance races there’s plenty of room for crew in a 367. 
 

I like the 109 cockpit ergonomics better. The 367’s is kind of square due to all that beam being carried aft. 
 

The 109 has less room below but I feel like the layout is better. The head right at the bottom of the companionway is convenient. Also the door in the head leading to the aft lazarette is handy. 
 

I dunno - I guess I’d rather race on a 109 and party on a 367? 

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Around here there is one J109 and 2 x 36.7. Both 36.7 have a prod and fly assys.

We race under IRC.  The J109 has a TCC of 1.019, while the 36.7 have ratings of 0.987 and 0.980 making the J109 theoretically 3% faster.  The winner tends to be the one that is better sailed.

I have no opinion on the J109 never having sailed on it, but the 36.7 feels a lot bigger than it's size.

Whatever you choose - enjoy it.

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It all comes down to your skill when racing.  A 36.7 with asym against j109 makes for a fun equal race, and in strong winds you will take the j109.  The benefits down below, being able to cruise it comfortably and the construction is why I choose a 36.7 over a j109.  It's a far more versatile boat with a broader range of use cases.

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Speaking of asyms, the prod Beneteau made for the First 40 fits the 367 as well. Pair it with an oversize pole, and fly your asyms ASOP style for max flexibility.

 

 

7535747_0_270720201514_1.jpg

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I'd choose the 109. having raced against both and on 109s, I think the 109 is more versatile both as a racer and a cruiser.

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23 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

Compromises - 36.7 - tiny cockpit for racing, the four people you need to put in there are always throwing elbows at each other. It’s a pole only boat, so more crew that have to know what they are doing. It’s roomer down below but you haul that with you on the race course. Also tall dog house always made the cockpit feel like you were sailing in a trench. 

This.  Have crewed on a 36.7 a bit.  Tiny friggin cockpit.  Main trimmer is always in the way and subject to many elbows during tacks.  36.7 seems to be a very "tweaky" boat as well and she's tender so she needs bodies on the rail for any chance to sail to rating.  Nice cabin on the 36.7 though.  

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

I would choose a J105, which you can probably pick up for the price of the 36.7

 

Rod Johnston took his wife for a weekend cruise on a 105, then came home and immediately designed the 109. Pretty much a true story.

I love the 105 for day racing, but have spent my shittest nights at sea on 105s.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Skull and Bones said:

Neither. Try to find a SC 37

They don't do well upwind, based on what we see in races here. There's one SC37, two 36.7's and seven J/109's at the club. 

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42 minutes ago, Jackdaw said:

 

Rod Johnston took his wife for a weekend cruise on a 105, then came home and immediately designed the 109. Pretty much a true story.

I love the 105 for day racing, but have spent my shittest nights at sea on 105s.

 

"The genesis of the J/32 occurred when Alan Johnstone and his wife sailed a J/105, a 34-footer, on a weekend getaway and discovered the same shortcomings mentioned by would-be weekenders.

“We had a fast, comfortable trip from Newport to Block Island,” he said. “When we couldn’t find a slip or mooring, we anchored in the harbor. The wind was blowing about 18 knots, but we were comfortable stretched out in the cockpit. Then it began to rain, so we went below, which was okay for the first couple of hours. However, we discovered that the quarters below were rather confining after a long period of time. And there’s little headroom so we couldn’t stretch our legs.”

Consequently, he and his wife began playing “what if?” They imagined the changes that would make the boat more suitable for cruising."

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/used_sailboats/j-32

 

Alan loves to tell the story - he's told it to me several times at the Annapolis boat show.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, slap said:

 

"The genesis of the J/32 occurred when Alan Johnstone and his wife sailed a J/105, a 34-footer, on a weekend getaway and discovered the same shortcomings mentioned by would-be weekenders.

“We had a fast, comfortable trip from Newport to Block Island,” he said. “When we couldn’t find a slip or mooring, we anchored in the harbor. The wind was blowing about 18 knots, but we were comfortable stretched out in the cockpit. Then it began to rain, so we went below, which was okay for the first couple of hours. However, we discovered that the quarters below were rather confining after a long period of time. And there’s little headroom so we couldn’t stretch our legs.”

Consequently, he and his wife began playing “what if?” They imagined the changes that would make the boat more suitable for cruising."

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/used_sailboats/j-32

 

Alan loves to tell the story - he's told it to me several times at the Annapolis boat show.

 

 

Good to know the straight story. One of the local 109 owners told me 'his' version.. obviously fit his circumstance better. Probably what he hold his wife as well.

 

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Lot's of truth in all of the responses... 

My bias is toward the 109. 

The 36.7 is very difficult to sail upwind in any kind of pressure. This will be a problem in PHRF as you'll always sink to leeward of boats that can point and be sailing in their dirty air. A shoal draft won't help that either... The kite is tiny so no relief downwind. The cabin is awesome... 

The 109 in my mind is the perfect Racer/Cruiser. Fast, roomy inside and out. build quality is excellent. Resale is off the hook.

So you'll pay more for the 109 but they hold their value better than the 36.7. 

 

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Had the same debate 14 years ago when I got my J109.  Still love the boat.  Have never had a second thought about spending the extra money – I’m glad I did.  It sails beautifully, easy to handle, looks good from all angles, nice cockpit, easy to move around on the deck, nice interior with good layout (particularly given how comfortable it is topside).  If I understand correctly, the hull is balsa cored, but it’s a grid layout with resin between each cube so water intrusion is supposed to be contained.  I’d like to have a 3 cabin layout, but my wife never thought the 36.7 was really 3 cabin given how stubby the v-berth is (which I agree with – my 11 year son might not even be able stretch out in it today).

Recently been thinking about a J122 (kids are growing) but I just really like my J109 (easy for me to handle by myself – kids aren’t that big yet).  As an aside, I think the mistake they made with the J112e was not making it a foot or so longer with 3 cabins (I would have bought that – twin wheels to walk through would have been great too).

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Having raced on mostly J/Boats, when I raced on a 40.7 for KWRW I was surprised at how small the cockpit was and how crowded everything felt. The 36.7 looks to be more (or less?) of the same, although I haven’t sailed one myself. 

I’ve always thought the 36.7 was ugly. The larger models fit the design language much better IMO. Whereas J/Boats all look the same. They’re like Audis in that way. If you like the looks of one you’ll probably like them all. 

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1 hour ago, Jackdaw said:

 

Rod Johnston took his wife for a weekend cruise on a 105, then came home and immediately designed the 109. Pretty much a true story.

I love the 105 for day racing, but have spent my shittest nights at sea on 105s.

 

 

The 109 is a rewrite of the 35. 

*Edit: as noted above, the story is mostly accurate (except Alan did the design, not Rod), the subject boat is not. 

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3 hours ago, Snowden said:

I would choose a J105, which you can probably pick up for the price of the 36.7

the 105 is a great shorthanded racer when the breeze is up. but in light to mid breezes it is a dump truck that I could beat boat for boat with my Elliott 770. I don't even know why it has an asym as it sails as if it's under a symmetrical chute. the 109 is much less sticky in light air and has a real cruising interior. Both benefit from large jibs, although the 105 moreso than the 109.

Of course if your area has a 105 OD fleet, then sure get one. 

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They both have the traveler in the worst place, especially for cruising and hosting a couple of people to drink and hangout.

When I was in the market for these types of boats I settled for an unknown name this side of the pond - Salona 38 (or 42)

Much newer, better interior than either of these (especially the J), twin wheels which opens up the transom for cruising (and better ergonomics for racing), no wooden core... same price (including delivery from overseas which should be ~$15k if you don't want to do it yourself).

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6 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

 

The 36.7 is very difficult to sail upwind in any kind of pressure. This will be a problem in PHRF as you'll always sink to leeward of boats that can point and be sailing in their dirty air. A shoal draft won't help that either... The kite is tiny so no relief downwind. The cabin is awesome... 

 

 

 

Hmm. In breeze the 367 is a witch upwind and will tear a 109 apart with equal weight on the rail.

The frac kite is a bitch however in the light.

 

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20 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

Speaking of asyms, the prod Beneteau made for the First 40 fits the 367 as well. Pair it with an oversize pole, and fly your asyms ASOP style for max flexibility.

 

 

7535747_0_270720201514_1.jpg

Thanks, Jackdaw.  I think if I do go the Beneteau route, I'd sail it with a 105%, fit it for a code 0 and an asym - AND - have lots of bank left over compared to the 109.

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15 hours ago, Cman said:

Had the same debate 14 years ago when I got my J109.  Still love the boat.  Have never had a second thought about spending the extra money – I’m glad I did.  It sails beautifully, easy to handle, looks good from all angles, nice cockpit, easy to move around on the deck, nice interior with good layout (particularly given how comfortable it is topside).  If I understand correctly, the hull is balsa cored, but it’s a grid layout with resin between each cube so water intrusion is supposed to be contained.  I’d like to have a 3 cabin layout, but my wife never thought the 36.7 was really 3 cabin given how stubby the v-berth is (which I agree with – my 11 year son might not even be able stretch out in it today).

Recently been thinking about a J122 (kids are growing) but I just really like my J109 (easy for me to handle by myself – kids aren’t that big yet).  As an aside, I think the mistake they made with the J112e was not making it a foot or so longer with 3 cabins (I would have bought that – twin wheels to walk through would have been great too).

Thanks, Cman.  Do you singlehand the boat much?  My kids are grown now and truth is for the most part the boat will be daysailed singlehanded (and a weekend couples camper).

17 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

How is that going to work with a 6' max depth on the lake?

@Renegade-27  Really 6' max?

Yes - only one marina in the lake can handle sailboats of this size and its in a cove that I regularly read 6.6 / 6.8 ft.  Marina warns at anything over 6'.

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30 minutes ago, Renegade-27 said:

Thanks, Cman.  Do you singlehand the boat much?  My kids are grown now and truth is for the most part the boat will be daysailed singlehanded (and a weekend couples camper).

Yes - only one marina in the lake can handle sailboats of this size and its in a cove that I regularly read 6.6 / 6.8 ft.  Marina warns at anything over 6'.

@Renegade-27 - I went through a similar selection process on the same boats with different constraints, although the shoal draft was not one of the constraints.  My requirements included:

  • #1 - Wife had to like it for occasional cruising - a true racer/cruiser
  • accomodations for crew when doing distance racing and occasional "away" events
  • Had to have OD class critical mass for occasional OD racing in local area
  • Ability to configure for short handed sailing
  • fair PHRF rating for beer can racing

My needs were best met with a J/109.  Having previously owned a J/30 I was familiar with J/Boats and balsa cored construction. I recored a major portion of the J/30 and am aware of what can happen when hull & deck penetrations are not properly isolated.  Don't let that scare you from a J/109.  After purchasing a J/109 2005 model year in 2013, I removed the overhead liner in anticipation of removing all the deck hardware to epoxy isolate each hole.  To my surprise, all the holes except for the after-market additions (e.g. the dodger mounts) had been properly isolated when built. I single hand the boat frequently.  The traveler is in the exact location needed for short handed sailing and crewed racing.  The most difficult part is getting on/off the dock because I'm in a slip that may have cross currents and / or cross breeze.  When I had a 30 foot boat, it was doable.  The extra 5 feet provides enough surface area to need an extra hand helping with dock lines or risking tapping the boat on the side.  This shouldn't be a problem on a mooring, or if a 2nd set of hands at the dock to help with lines.  Once underway, single handed sailing is very manageable. I will single hand and fly an asym spinnaker. I used to single hand my J/30 and fly the symmetrical spinnaker, but I believe the additional sail area on a 35ft boat would make this much more challenging.

Since you will be on a lake and not able to easily travel to other locations where there may be additional OD boats, consider the boat type that may have OD potential in your location.  There are some shoal draft J/109s but these are not very common.  Occasionally you'll find one on the market. 

I don't think you can go wrong with either boat.  The J/109 has an active OD class and website with forum that many owners support. The 36.7 site is there but does not appear to be as actively updated. Get on both boats and go sailing before making your purchase decision. There are enough of both type boats around the Northeast where you should be able to check them out locally.   PM me if you want to check out my J/109 in Newport - it is NOT for sale!

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On 8/30/2020 at 7:24 AM, Renegade-27 said:

Hi all - wracking my brain trying decide if the J109 is worth 50% more than the Bene 36.7.

I do PHRF racing, short- or single- handed in generally light lake wind. I'm an engineer - 'technical' sailor - racing the polars and trimming sail all the time.  We are limited to shoal draft for either (6' max on the lake) and there are few of each available now for sale.

Anyone know how they do head-to-head?  The PHRF is almost the same.

Thanks for adding your thoughts and experiences!

was in the same decision making place in 2004.... I bought a 36,7 at the time solely for 1D class superiority at the time.. which was short lived. 

the price diff for them, new, at that time, was huge. I haven't kept up with that market since. I enjoyed the boat, and anyone telling you the two are comparable cruising boats hasn't spent much time below on either. The cruising amenities on the Bene were a lot nicer than the J. Having said that however, I would prefer to race the J offshore.. 

A lot of people call the 36.7 tender.. I never felt that.  The steering mechanics made the helm numb... you cou;dn't tell it was loading up until it was too late. A good main trimmer could help in that department. Learning how to feather the boat helped in heavy air too...Upwind.. Downwind in heavy air I thought the boat was plain fun to drive. and very forgiving .I did a fair amount of shorthanded racing on my 36.7. towards that end I had two headstays made for the boat when I bought it.. 1 wire with 2slot tuffluff and another with a roller furler on it.. it took 3 of us about 10 minutes to swap out those headstays ....

my only other complaint about the Bene was the flesh eating legos they glued to the deck for non-skid. but I reckon by now those boats have probably worn down some. 

I owned the Bene fo 4 years and campaigned it hard here on the Bay. I've never owned a 109 but have a few thousand offshore miles racing on them. 

feel free to pm with any specific questions you might have about either boat. 

Someone upthread called the 109 a rewrite of the 35. Having owned and raced a 35 for 11 years, and put in a fuckton of miles on a 109, I don't see it that way... perhaps in the circumstances of their evolution but not in their execution. 

 

now, having said all that, and If I'd have the foresight to see how much shorthanded sailing I'd be doing at this point, I wish I had bought the J109  the 36.7 and the J35 are both crew hungry. and as I get older and slower, i'm less inclined to fuck with a sym kite doing shorthanded races.. 

 

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I race a ton on a 36.7 and have sailed the 109 quite a bit too.  A few thoughts.

If sailing PHRF in light air, the 109 will almost definitely outperform the 36.7, except in light air downwind.  Pole vs. sprit - pole will always be preferable.  That said, the 36.7 generally demands more crew, it has a fractional rig in the 1D configuration and kites with tiny shoulders, and the 109 has a way of accelerating very quickly in light-air puffs.  If racing PHRF, you will probably have no need to limit yourself to the non-overlapping class jib on the 109, nor the fractional rig setup on the 36.7.  Both boats should point very well upwind.

Both are very nice down below but the 36.7 can accommodate more people.  The 109's head is where a quarter berth would normally be.

As others have said, the 36.7 is all assholes and elbows in the cockpit.  The main and jib trimmers like the same spot.  The pit is the busiest pit I've ever seen.  J/ boats have the best cockpit layouts and the 109 is every bit as good as the 120 in this regard.

The 109 class is very strong on the East Coast, so resale will likely be easier (though 10 or 15 years down the road, who knows.)

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oh geeze, I didn't notice the draft constraint with a lake n all.. I don't think I'd get either one of these boats in shoal draft. get a J30 and a nice little power boat. 

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14 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

 

Hmm. In breeze the 367 is a witch upwind and will tear a 109 apart with equal weight on the rail.

The frac kite is a bitch however in the light.

 

Eh, everyone's experience may be different. My experience in SoCal is that they tend to not point as good as one would think they should. One theory is the main loads the rudder too much. 

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22 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Eh, everyone's experience may be different. My experience in SoCal is that they tend to not point as good as one would think they should. One theory is the main loads the rudder too much. 

Had a similar experience on the 36.7 I raced on. 

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23 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Eh, everyone's experience may be different. My experience in SoCal is that they tend to not point as good as one would think they should. One theory is the main loads the rudder too much. 

Could be. On the Great Lakes when the breeze comes up we get nasty chop. The 367 seemed to power through it better then the 109. When the blades came out we loved our chances upwind. Another datapoint; in the 2018 Chi-Mac race it was breezy and all up wind.Both boats had big fleets. Three 367s beat the first 109 to the line, and by a couple of hours.

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1 hour ago, Jackdaw said:

Could be. On the Great Lakes when the breeze comes up we get nasty chop. The 367 seemed to power through it better then the 109. When the blades came out we loved our chances upwind. Another datapoint; in the 2018 Chi-Mac race it was breezy and all up wind.Both boats had big fleets. Three 367s beat the first 109 to the line, and by a couple of hours.

That's one hell of a data point! 

Both are great boats and would make the OP a proud owner. 

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I, like many others who've commented up thread, also faced this choice once.  Looked very hard at both boats (when new in 2003), and ultimately went with a J/109.  I was very happy with my choice, and tradeoffs vs. the 36.7 have already been very accurately discussed.  After I sold it (to pay for kids college expenses), I raced for several years on a B 36.7.  I thought it was also a great boat, and would say either can be sailed to their ratings, and in the end, it would likely come down to crew/who sailed the better race...

J's are initially more expensive, no doubt.  But have held that value difference as well, so unless you abuse the boat, you'll get that difference back typically.

J/109's have a cored hull, which some think an issue.  Bene 36.7's have a pan liner grid system, which some think are an issue when damaged...

No boat is perfect. All boats are a compromise.  Either would fit you use case pretty well.  I've owned 2 J/boats, and 2 Bene Firsts...

Have you thought about a J/110?  Might fit your use case just as well or better.  Deep draft is only 5.9ft.  On a point to point race that doesn't have a ton of upwind work, a J/110 can easily pace a J/109.  In fact I think it's maybe a better boat on a reach...They didn't make many, but it might be worth looking at.

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2 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

Could be. On the Great Lakes when the breeze comes up we get nasty chop. The 367 seemed to power through it better then the 109. When the blades came out we loved our chances upwind. Another datapoint; in the 2018 Chi-Mac race it was breezy and all up wind.Both boats had big fleets. Three 367s beat the first 109 to the line, and by a couple of hours.

Spent a lot of time driving the Bene in nasty upwind chop during this year's PH-Mac and I agree, the 36.7 handled it very well indeed.  You do need a pretty big and strong main trimmer if it's puffy, cause the load on it gets pretty fierce.

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I raced the demonstrator 36.7 in NZ. We had it set up with a masthead symmetrical.

Upwind the thing was a train. Loved it. Downwind to 15kn true it was fine. Once other other boats could get on the step we were left behind.

I thought the cockpit was fine and interior awesome.

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I own a 36.7 and occasionally sail on and always sail against 109s. A lot of great points above. Love the 36.7 but the 109 is also a great boat and I'd be happy to have one, but no way are they worth 50% (and up) more. 

 

 

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Like a lot of others I cross-shopped both boats, and in the end chose the 109. I don't have much more to add, but in the end liked the cockpit of the 109 better. The interior of the 36.7 seems more appealing at first, but I found the 109 was a better fit for a couples boat with more storage and better seeting and bunks.

Harking back to the original post, the plan is for short handed sailing, for which both should be fine, or single handed, for which neither is great. The wheel set up lends itself well to reaching mainsail controls, but not the jib. This would be true of almost all performance wheel helmed boats. It is still doable and fun, but if you love tweeking the rig and sails a tiller boat still has an advantage. 

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On 9/1/2020 at 12:02 PM, coyotepup said:

You do need a pretty big and strong main trimmer [on the 36.7] if it's puffy, cause the load on it gets pretty fierce.

Can't that be fixed with minor upgrades to traveler and/or mainsheet?

I'm old and not very strong but I can trim main on 50-60 foot fractionals if the running rigging is powerful enough and ergonomic.

Do others find that the stock running rigging and associated hardware tend to be undersized on French boats? My take is the cruisers don't care and the racers don't mind upgrading their budget race boats.

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We've raced our 36.7 for a few years, and then grabbed a Melges for my racing fix.  I've owned my 36.7 since 2004, bought it new, and have loved the boat - cruising, racing, weekending, weeks on end, entertaining, etc.  I'll defer to all the other posts, since they provide a good picture.

The boat can be sailed in a breeze, and it's not tender... much like any other boat, set things up correctly.  Goes to weather just fine.  The wheel needed to be bigger.  If you get a version that is pre-hull 155 (ish) you can still lower the pedestal, dig a little groove out of the cockpit, and have a better steering angle with the wheel dropped down a bit.  Additionally, if you plan on singlehanding the boat at all, it's incredibly easy to do.  You can drive, trim the main, mess with the traveler, and tack the boat very easily... all from the confines of the helmsman's position.  I've appreciated the layout of the control lines and think it's an outstanding boat on many levels.  We sail ours with a 105% headsail on a furler, and it's enough power to get the boat up and rolling just fine.  

DG

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15 hours ago, steele said:

Like a lot of others I cross-shopped both boats, and in the end chose the 109. I don't have much more to add, but in the end liked the cockpit of the 109 better. The interior of the 36.7 seems more appealing at first, but I found the 109 was a better fit for a couples boat with more storage and better seeting and bunks.

Harking back to the original post, the plan is for short handed sailing, for which both should be fine, or single handed, for which neither is great. The wheel set up lends itself well to reaching mainsail controls, but not the jib. This would be true of almost all performance wheel helmed boats. It is still doable and fun, but if you love tweeking the rig and sails a tiller boat still has an advantage. 

Isn't the 36.7 a tiller boat?

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12 hours ago, Somebody Else said:
On 9/1/2020 at 3:09 AM, Jackdaw said:

Rod Johnston took his wife for a weekend cruise on a 105, then came home and immediately designed the 109. Pretty much a true story.

It's all about the head 

What a surprise, bigger boat with a head is better for females.

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18 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Tiller was only option in Europe? 

 

Possibly... In my head it was the 40.7 which was a wheel boat and the 30.7 and 36.7 were tiller boats. I imagine that the wheel is a PITA during tacks as it must be in the way of the mainsheet trimmer. But then the 36.7 came out when I stopped racing regularly so possibly I am wrong...

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31 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Were you thinking of Pogo or JPK ? :ph34r:

None in particular, there are dozens of them.  Interesting here that if one Bene does not cut it, then the choice is one of the other Bene's.

Seems a little circle jerky.

 

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37 minutes ago, astro said:

None in particular, there are dozens of them.  Interesting here that if one Bene does not cut it, then the choice is one of the other Bene's.

Seems a little circle jerky.

If one Bene doesn't cut it then the other option was J. Or at least that was my understanding. Are you saying that 109 is also Bene?

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3 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

If one Bene doesn't cut it then the other option was J. Or at least that was my understanding. Are you saying that 109 is also Bene?

No.

I'm saying that this is a Bene circle jerk.

 

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3 minutes ago, astro said:

No.

I'm saying that this is a Bene circle jerk.

At quick glance it seemed to me that everyone was of the opinion that 109 will outpace 36.7, but 36.7 has better interior (and worse cockpit). Imho this was quite decent thread that stayed exceptionally well on topic of X vs. Y with only few suggestions from left field and quite a lot personal experiences.

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1 minute ago, Upp3 said:

At quick glance it seemed to me that everyone was of the opinion that 109 will outpace 36.7, but 36.7 has better interior (and worse cockpit). Imho this was quite decent thread that stayed exceptionally well on topic of X vs. Y with only few suggestions from left field and quite a lot personal experiences.

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3 hours ago, astro said:

None in particular, there are dozens of them.  Interesting here that if one Bene does not cut it, then the choice is one of the other Bene's.

Seems a little circle jerky.

 

I wasn't suggesting another Beneteau, I was just surprised that the 36.7 had a wheel... If anything the comment was negative about the 36.7 as I wrote that the wheel must be a waste of space during tacks!

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I can’t speak to sailing ON the 36.7 as I only sailing on one once, but I owned a J/109 from 2004 to 2015, put about 25,000 miles under her keel and did just over 700 races with her in that time, often AGAINST 36.7s both with the standard symmetrical kites as well as modified versions with a sprit and an asym.

The 109 was a WONDERFUL boat. Easy to single-hand with jib and main, or double-hand adding the spinnaker into the mix. With the correct sail inventory (3 headsails, 3 spinnakers) she was happy in anything from 5 - 30 knots of true wind. And even though my PHRF rating kept going down while the local 36.7s were going up, we were first across the line and ahead on corrected far more often than not.

I didn’t do a lot of extended cruising with her, but when we did away regattas we usually had 2-4 people staying on the boat, and the boat never felt cramped, well, at least not for the FIRST week.

The build quality on the boat was wonderful, the most expensive repair I ever had to make to her was replacing the exhaust elbow on the Yanmar when she got a bit fouled up with carbon build-up.

By the time I sold her we had her sailing through the water at a few-tenths OVER her polars and pointing ridiculously high upwind, which typically got us to the top mark ahead of the fleet. Once we put up the chute and turned downwind the 36.7s could sail a bit lower and slower than us, but our higher speeds with the hotter angles gave us better VMC to the bottom mark in most conditions.

The 36.7s tended to do better if we had races with skewed courses with a lot of reaching NOT under spinnaker. 

I hope this helps, and I hope you find just the right boat for the type of sailing you want to do…and if that is a J/109, so much the better!!! :-)

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On 9/1/2020 at 3:44 AM, Renegade-27 said:

Thanks, Cman.  Do you singlehand the boat much?  My kids are grown now and truth is for the most part the boat will be daysailed singlehanded (and a weekend couples camper).

Yes - only one marina in the lake can handle sailboats of this size and its in a cove that I regularly read 6.6 / 6.8 ft.  Marina warns at anything over 6'.

How about this?  Rates around what the 109/36.7 rate, but keel & rudder lift...

 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/andrews-westerly-3704076/

 

From this thread:

 

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

How about this?  Rates around what the 109/36.7 rate, but keel & rudder lift...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/andrews-westerly-3704076/

Damn, that looks like the ticket!

It has the most amazing countertop/couch color combination that I've ever seen.

But in all seriousness, with the furling boom AND lifting appendages, this is quite a rare boat - especially at this price.

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On 9/10/2020 at 4:05 PM, Floating Duck said:

Damn, that looks like the ticket!

It has the most amazing countertop/couch color combination that I've ever seen.

But in all seriousness, with the furling boom AND lifting appendages, this is quite a rare boat - especially at this price.

Sweet looking boat, too bad the sailplan is from the 1980s

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  • 6 months later...

They're similar boats for sure. The 36.7 is definitely a more versatile boat though. It has a great cabin, yes the cockpit is small but it's a dream to single hand. Mainsheet, traveler, jib sheets, everything is right in reach. The 36.7 goes well upwind, likely outrunning the J. The boat is not Tender when set up correctly, she goes like a witch to weather. But downwind leaves something to be desired. If you're not racing OD, I would take the extra $$ the J would cost and throw a bowsprit and masthead kite on. For cruising the J and the Bene are not comparable. The Bene is much much nicer down below. but you are dragging all of that around on the race course, so there's your tradeoff.  The Bene's bigger anchor locker is nice, and the cockpit has removable benches for racing. We've cruised for weeks on end (5 people and a dog onboard) with our 36.7, and days later done quite well in the Mac race. The simpler non cored construction of the Bene has saved our asses a few times... The boat responds well too small changes like a dinghy. Pull the jib car back, yank on the cunningham and backstay and the boat responds to that. For the price, I think you'd have a hard time finding a better boat than the Bene. Good Luck with your search, they're both fantastic options. Please DM me if you have any questions about either boat! 

 

- Will 

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We had our 36.7 for five years on the Great Lakes.  Decided to buy another Beneteau after having lustful thoughts toward other brands based on the following:  We owned our 2005 36.7 from 2015 through 2020.  In that time we logged over 10,000 miles, including 9 Mackinac races, many windward-leeward events, and great cruising.   Never trucked, always delivered on her own bottom.  And in that entire five years, never once did that boat fail to make a start line, finish line, or planned cruise.   We sailed her hard,  and with great appreciation got more than our share of podium finishes.   Yeah, I spent five years cursing at certain design decisions on the boat, but when it came time to sell there wasn't a squeak, rattle, or leak that hadn't been there when we got her.   

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On 9/10/2020 at 2:05 PM, Floating Duck said:
On 9/10/2020 at 11:06 AM, Crash said:

How about this?  Rates around what the 109/36.7 rate, but keel & rudder lift...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/andrews-westerly-3704076/

Damn, that looks like the ticket!

It has the most amazing countertop/couch color combination that I've ever seen.

 

Not to mention the matching head and spinnaker.

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Before anyone decides to buy a 367, I would strongly suggest you walk into the head, close the door and then try to turn around. If that doesn't put you off, then sail one for 100_ miles downwind, in a moderate breeze..........woof.

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Funny to see this string light up recently after going dormant.  Timing is interesting - just about to close on a X-34.  Uncommon boat here in the US.

J109's at this time are just outrageously expensive.  On the East Coast they are each going up by 10k over prior based on immediate sales - now WELL above $150k.  I'm out of that money race.

A good 36.7 is $80k ish - so not in the same price level at all.  If I didn't find the X-, I would have gone 36.7 (masthead spinnaker, sprit, asyms).  GREAT all-around boat.  One of the great designs and commercial platforms of our day for sure.  Farr hit it out of the park.

The X-34 was priced between the two, exceptional build quality, a good but simple, unspectacular cabin, and strong racing pedigree.  In my original post I noted single- or short- handed sailing.  The non-overlapping jib, fractional rig and high ballast/displacement (41.5% - higher than 109, almost J105) were attractive to be able to 'race to the rating' without 8 guys on the rail. 

I also liked the idea of smaller vs larger - measuring overall effort involved in sailing to sail area, kinder to my aging body.   Hopefully the added stiffness will also be a little kinder to my skittish wife.

BTW, anyone looking to 'trade'up/down your boat - - got to say overall transactional costs are bigger than expected!  (Wife not pleased)...

 

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Having done thousands of racing & delivery miles on one of her bigger sisters,  I have no doubt that she will look after you well & you will appreciate the quality of the build every time you sit downstairs on your own and just look around.

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On 3/23/2021 at 4:36 PM, quod umbra said:

Before anyone decides to buy a 367, I would strongly suggest you walk into the head, close the door and then try to turn around. If that doesn't put you off, then sail one for 100_ miles downwind, in a moderate breeze..........woof.

I think the head is very comparable to boats of a similar size. Plus you get three cabins out of the deal! As for the downwind sailing, in standard setup it does struggle in light downwind. But we sail ours with a fractional A-sym flown off the bow roller and it does very well. Even in a light downwind (6 knots boat speed in 7-10 knots of wind with an angle of 135 ish) It would take off if you put a sprit on, and went masthead like many of them have. 

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On 3/23/2021 at 4:36 PM, quod umbra said:

Before anyone decides to buy a 367, I would strongly suggest you walk into the head, close the door and then try to turn around. If that doesn't put you off, then sail one for 100_ miles downwind, in a moderate breeze..........woof.

At least the 36.7 head isn't right next to the companionway.  On the 109 you can sit on the throne and talk to all your buddies in the cockpit.  Open the window and make yourself useful by tailing the spin halyard!  Although one skipper I sailed with considered this a feature rather than a bug....he could go into his "office" and holler instructions no matter how indisposed he might be.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/24/2021 at 6:48 AM, Renegade-27 said:

Funny to see this string light up recently after going dormant.  Timing is interesting - just about to close on a X-34.  Uncommon boat here in the US.

J109's at this time are just outrageously expensive.  On the East Coast they are each going up by 10k over prior based on immediate sales - now WELL above $150k.  I'm out of that money race.

A good 36.7 is $80k ish - so not in the same price level at all.  If I didn't find the X-, I would have gone 36.7 (masthead spinnaker, sprit, asyms).  GREAT all-around boat.  One of the great designs and commercial platforms of our day for sure.  Farr hit it out of the park.

The X-34 was priced between the two, exceptional build quality, a good but simple, unspectacular cabin, and strong racing pedigree.  In my original post I noted single- or short- handed sailing.  The non-overlapping jib, fractional rig and high ballast/displacement (41.5% - higher than 109, almost J105) were attractive to be able to 'race to the rating' without 8 guys on the rail. 

I also liked the idea of smaller vs larger - measuring overall effort involved in sailing to sail area, kinder to my aging body.   Hopefully the added stiffness will also be a little kinder to my skittish wife.

BTW, anyone looking to 'trade'up/down your boat - - got to say overall transactional costs are bigger than expected!  (Wife not pleased)...

 

Capture.JPG

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You bought an awesome boat at a very good price!  Congratulations, Mark!  You're going to love your new X-34!

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On 3/24/2021 at 8:36 PM, coyotepup said:

At least the 36.7 head isn't right next to the companionway.  On the 109 you can sit on the throne and talk to all your buddies in the cockpit.  Open the window and make yourself useful by tailing the spin halyard!  Although one skipper I sailed with considered this a feature rather than a bug....he could go into his "office" and holler instructions no matter how indisposed he might be.

Not pushing 109's but the head being next to the companionway is a great feature IMHO. When in foulies, on a stinking day, you come below to hit the head and you aren't wandering around the boat getting everything wet.

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