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Laser Class Rules. Control lines


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I going to be acquiring a '73 laser and since of course it's going to have the old 3:1  vang I was wondering if I could make up a vang with some spare blocks and line that would have more purchase. Would that be allowed by the class rules?( I couldn't make any sense out of the Class Rules:unsure:)

I would like to to do something similar with the outhaul and cunningham as well...Though I am under the impression that the Rules are a little looser as to how those are rigged.

This is all supposing that the laser is worth new control lines, or even sailable! I have heard that the laser has been sitting uncovered on a beach for the last couple of years...:blink:

Also, is there the remotest chance that a '73 would be competitive in a club fleet?

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Apparently they want you to shell out for the "official one design version whatever version that is today version."  

Basically at that level do what you want until someone whines.  Take a look at the options and be close enough for now.  Then triple the value of your boat by getting a Not-Laser sail from Intensity.  

Remember to leak test the boat so you don't have the bad surprise, and go have some fun.  That one should have old crusty foam blocks wrapped in trashbags instead of pieces of old buoyancy jugs inside. 

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Also, is there the remotest chance that a '73 would be competitive in a club fleet?

Yes absolutely. Use the old Vang blocks and add the loops in the line to increase the purchase. Put a barrel swivel on the tang. Upgrade as you go if you feel the need. 

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I suppose it depends on the caliber of your fleet. Unless it has been completely updated, a 47 year old boat would have trouble competing at our club. 

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19 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I suppose it depends on the caliber of your fleet. Unless it has been completely updated, a 47 year old boat would have trouble competing at our club. 

By completely updated I assume you mean new hull, spars, foils, fittings and sail?

That sounds about right!

I had 18853 as a mess around boat as well as a 3 year old boat, when sailing the old boat with all the good kit I still couldn’t hold a lane upwind in full hiking conditions, due to the twisting in the hull, it was possible to win but that required nailing every shift, and hoping my competitors didn’t,  in steady breeze it was depressing. With the new boat I was always at the pointy end of the fleet.

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4 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I suppose it depends on the caliber of your fleet. Unless it has been completely updated, a 47 year old boat would have trouble competing at our club. 

As an aside to his , I was so pleased this week to see a picture of my first laser 64179 ( built 1979 ) competing at this years UK nationals . It was at the back of the fleet though :D lt was just so nice to know it was still being sailed and enjoyed by someone .

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5 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I suppose it depends on the caliber of your fleet. Unless it has been completely updated, a 47 year old boat would have trouble competing at our club. 

It also depends what you mean by competitive. IME boat speed isn't especially relevant in any class unless you are good enough to get in at least the top quarter of the fleet... Just have to do the maths... finishing time spread in just about any class is about 20%, but 5% would be an amazing boat speed advantage.

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I paid a bit more than I should have for 32xxx (a 74-ish build) then overcapitalised by updating the controls (with second hand parts). That took me from floundering a lap behind, up to mid fleet in our small and broadly capable club (occasionally 10 Lasers, ranging from kids who never raced the club Optis they learnt in, up to former national champs).

Then I upgraded to 196***, which placed me about the same in 2 races before COVID killed the season.

My new boat feels nicer, but that's probably as much new boat smell as anything. It doesn't leak, which is nice. Hopefully I'll continue to improve when we can race again.

If you're going to be finishing mid fleet or worse, your boat is less of a liability to your results than you are.

But spending money upgrading a wrecked boat is not good economics.

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A cool thing happens when you join the class.  You get a class rule book in the mail that tells you everything that is class legal.  If you're concerned about being class legal you really should join because some event require class membership to participate, (mostly all the bigger events do).

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18 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I going to be acquiring a '73 laser and since of course it's going to have the old 3:1  vang I was wondering if I could make up a vang with some spare blocks and line that would have more purchase. Would that be allowed by the class rules?( I couldn't make any sense out of the Class Rules:unsure:)

I would like to to do something similar with the outhaul and cunningham as well...Though I am under the impression that the Rules are a little looser as to how those are rigged.

This is all supposing that the laser is worth new control lines, or even sailable! I have heard that the laser has been sitting uncovered on a beach for the last couple of years...:blink:

Also, is there the remotest chance that a '73 would be competitive in a club fleet?

Don't listen to these nutters.  Any old boat can be made to be competitive in any club fleet.  Its just a matter of how m,uch time you want to spend to bring it back if its got soft spots or structural issues.

Don't waste your time with the class.  There are many resources on how to rig a Laser old school or modern.  Here is one of many: http://www.schrothfiberglass.com/RiggingforLaser.htm

 

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Don't listen to these nutters.  Any old boat can be made to be competitive in any club fleet.  Its just a matter of how m,uch time you want to spend to bring it back if its got soft spots or structural issues.

Don't waste your time with the class.  There are many resources on how to rig a Laser old school or modern.  Here is one of many: http://www.schrothfiberglass.com/RiggingforLaser.htm

 

Time and money.

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Here is a helpful blog for you. I got the link on the North American ILCA website, which I linked to from the ILCA website. The Class website has always provided excellent information to all Laser sailors for FREE. I think you will find the info contained in this link, on the ILCA website and on the various ILCA regional websites to be of value, and not a waste of time. 

https://sailingforums.com/threads/old-laser-help-requested.42380/

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I looked at the Laser today, seems fairly good considering age and whats its been through! Here's an unbelievable story about this Laser. Apparently when he sailed the boat in Florida, a while back, a hurricane swept  this boat off the beach where it was stored. He alerted the Coast Guard, ( this is absolutely freakin unbelievable) and THREE years later, they called that this boat had drifted onto a beach, apparently none the worse for wear!

Anyway, the boat seem fairly solid, quite stiff, (we had to carry the boat over our heads up 77 stairs to reach a location accessible to a trailer, so I should know)

I noticed  a few spots that felt a little bouncy but nothing serious. Bear in mind I am getting this  for $50!

 I'm picking up the boat tomorrow. will post pics.

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41 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I looked at the Laser today, seems fairly good considering age and whats its been through! Here's an unbelievable story about this Laser. Apparently when he sailed the boat in Florida, a while back, a hurricane swept  this boat off the beach where it was stored. He alerted the Coast Guard, ( this is absolutely freakin unbelievable) and THREE years later, they called that this boat had drifted onto a beach, apparently none the worse for wear!

Anyway, the boat seem fairly solid, quite stiff, (we had to carry the boat over our heads up 77 stairs to reach a location accessible to a trailer, so I should know)

I noticed  a few spots that felt a little bouncy but nothing serious. Bear in mind I am getting this  for $50!

 I'm picking up the boat tomorrow. will post pics.

Sounds like a very lucky laser. I’d buy it.

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On 8/31/2020 at 3:13 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

I going to be acquiring a '73 laser and since of course it's going to have the old 3:1  vang I was wondering if I could make up a vang with some spare blocks and line that would have more purchase. 

“Real” Laser sailers would use the 1973 3:1 Vang and would learn the, now, super duper secret method to tighten the Vang at the leeward mark!:D

Sounds like a great deal for $50! The fun per $ will be very high!

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2 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

 

Anyway, the boat seem fairly solid, quite stiff, (we had to carry the boat over our heads up 77 stairs in the snow to reach a  super duper super secret location to pay the super duper super secret fees so the leadership can go on super duper super secret vacay  in sum super duper super secret locations.

 

FIFY

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5 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

“Real” Laser sailers would use the 1973 3:1 Vang and would learn the, now, super duper secret method to tighten the Vang at the leeward mark!:D

Putting it on was not the problem, it was releasing it at the windward mark that caused me pain!

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5 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

“Real” Laser sailers would use the 1973 3:1 Vang and would learn the, now, super duper secret method to tighten the Vang at the leeward mark!:D

There were two methods in my day (1980s):

1. Stuff the boat almost into wind after rounding the mark, stand up, put all your weight on the boom with your right hand and take up slack with the left

2. Pull the main in hard and cleat it, put your foot on the bit of mainsheet coming down from the centre of the boom and push hard, taking up the kicker slack with your hand

The second method was enough to keep the boom in the "block to block" position without any mainsheet tension. As a teenager I don't think I was heavy enough for the first one to work as effectively.

At one point I had a 16:1 purchase that I was very proud of, with a big monkey's fist on the end, and the insides of the various loops melted with a lighter to make them smoother and reduce friction. With hindsight it was probably no more effective than method 2 above, and the monkey's fist probably weighed more than the entire kicker system on my last I14.

At the windward mark, I have a vague memory of using the same method to get the kicker out of the cleat on the lay line. After the bear-away, there was no question of adjusting anything other than the mainsheet...

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2 hours ago, Dave S said:

There were two methods in my day (1980s):

1. Stuff the boat almost into wind after rounding the mark, stand up, put all your weight on the boom with your right hand and take up slack with the left

2. Pull the main in hard and cleat it, put your foot on the bit of mainsheet coming down from the centre of the boom and push hard, taking up the kicker slack with your hand

The second method was enough to keep the boom in the "block to block" position without any mainsheet tension. As a teenager I don't think I was heavy enough for the first one to work as effectively.

At one point I had a 16:1 purchase that I was very proud of, with a big monkey's fist on the end, and the insides of the various loops melted with a lighter to make them smoother and reduce friction. With hindsight it was probably no more effective than method 2 above, and the monkey's fist probably weighed more than the entire kicker system on my last I14.

At the windward mark, I have a vague memory of using the same method to get the kicker out of the cleat on the lay line. After the bear-away, there was no question of adjusting anything other than the mainsheet...

These were the days.

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Is your Fireball project on hold?

Someone from our club had very thoughtfully offered to fix it for us( he has rebuilt an entire Fireball before so is very knowledgeable on wooden boats) of course I accepted(!) so he has been working on it when he's at the club. I am very glad an expert is working on it instead of myself!:) He is also replacing the thwart and centerboard capping.

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Apart from the above mentioned method of putting the Vang on, which I recall involved using your tiller hand to push the boom down and your mainsheet hand to tension the vang, I think the cleat block was originally mounted on the boom and not the mast, I also remember the outhaul adjustment, putting your front foot on the boom while pulling the tail of the rope that was tied to the mast towards you. If you didn’t put your foot on the boom you simply pulled the boom into the centre of the boat. Both of the above  had to be done while putting in a controlled luff to unload everything, not so easy after rounding the leeward mark in 25 knots!

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11 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

Apart from the above mentioned method of putting the Vang on, which I recall involved using your tiller hand to push the boom down and your mainsheet hand to tension the vang, I think the cleat block was originally mounted on the boom and not the mast, I also remember the outhaul adjustment, putting your front foot on the boom while pulling the tail of the rope that was tied to the mast towards you. If you didn’t put your foot on the boom you simply pulled the boom into the centre of the boat. Both of the above  had to be done while putting in a controlled luff to unload everything, not so easy after rounding the leeward mark in 25 knots!

Brilliant.  I never understood why anyone would want to invent aids for weaklings who couldn't be bothered to master those ancient skills of how to adjust the vang and outhaul properly on a classic Laser.
 

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46 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

I also remember the outhaul adjustment, putting your front foot on the boom while pulling the tail of the rope that was tied to the mast towards you. If you didn’t put your foot on the boom you simply pulled the boom into the centre of the boat.

That must have used some whizzy purchase system that we didn't have. I remember putting my *back* foot on the boom and pulling sideways with my tiller hand on the bit of rope between the back of the boom and the cleat. I then pulled the slack through the cleat with my mainsheet hand, but I can't remember exactly how that bit worked; something to do with a loop of the same rope that went round the mast.

Despite having a 4:1 cunningham, I only ever remember pulling it on by sitting in the cockpit before the start, facing forward with both feet braced against the front of the cockpit, and pulling like fark...

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Did any of you guys do the mast rake trick with the loop of rope stuffed down between the back of the mast & the tube? 

My first Laser (no.5945) had varnished wooden foils. The only thing was the rudder blade was badly warped so the boat seemed to go better on one tack than the other...lol.

Still got me out on the water & racing with the others, only doing any good in flat water as the hull was so soft it felt like a Topper & would flex so much in choppy water. 

Bloody hell that was nearly 30 years ago!!!

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7 hours ago, Martin T said:

Putting it on was not the problem, it was releasing it at the windward mark that caused me pain!

Lots of truth right there LOL.  Been there!

 

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15 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I looked at the Laser today, seems fairly good considering age and whats its been through! Here's an unbelievable story about this Laser. Apparently when he sailed the boat in Florida, a while back, a hurricane swept  this boat off the beach where it was stored. He alerted the Coast Guard, ( this is absolutely freakin unbelievable) and THREE years later, they called that this boat had drifted onto a beach, apparently none the worse for wear!

As they say, looks can be deceiving! There was a sailmaker in upstate New York in the 1990's who raced a Laser that cosmetically was one of the ugliest around. The boat washed up on a beach, upside down, after a storm. You can imagine how the deck looked. This guy was tough to beat - goes to show that a new sail and smart person on the boat are an unbeatable combination.

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2 hours ago, Dave S said:

 

Despite having a 4:1 cunningham, I only ever remember pulling it on by sitting in the cockpit before the start, facing forward with both feet braced against the front of the cockpit, and pulling like fark...

I remember trying to do it towards the end of an offwind leg, bear off, mainsheet in tiller hand, forward  foot on the front end of the cockpit, you have one attempt to pull as hard as you can before you either weather roll or nosedive, good memories!

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Lots of truth right there LOL.  Been there!

 

Worse thing was when you overstood the weather mark and had someone above you, it was completely impossible to get into the boat to ease the vang, so you had to go down the reach with full upwind Vang as well as the board fully down, and if you were luckyenough to get the Vang eased on the offwind leg then often it eased too far and you couldn’t get it back on, and when you rounded the leeward mark and sheeted block to block the Vang would go completely loose and pop out of the boom fitting, you would immediately get a gust and not be able to ease the main......

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1 hour ago, Major Tom said:

Worse thing was when you overstood the weather mark and had someone above you, it was completely impossible to get into the boat to ease the vang, so you had to go down the reach with full upwind Vang as well as the board fully down, and if you were luckyenough to get the Vang eased on the offwind leg then often it eased too far and you couldn’t get it back on, and when you rounded the leeward mark and sheeted block to block the Vang would go completely loose and pop out of the boom fitting, you would immediately get a gust and not be able to ease the main......

All part of the fun of real Laser sailing in the good old days.

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Well, first:  we always duct-taped the vang fitting to the boom.  No pop-outs.
 

Second:  you had breeze and big fleet?  Before you got to the weather mark you reached down to the extra long vang line ( mine sat in cockpit near my feet) and released vang.  When you rounded you were good to go.  

Third: had marks on vang line indicating where the off breeze position was.   

Practicing mark rounding, in all conditions, could be worth 3-5 boats when clean handling was key.  

 

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16 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Is your Fireball project on hold?

No. Someone from our club very thoughtfully offered to fix it for us( former Fireball sailor, he also has redecked and rebuilt several Fireballs) of course I accepted, more than willing to hand over the project to an expert! He is also replacing the thwarts and centerboard capping.

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2 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Well, first:  we always duct-taped the vang fitting to the boom.  No pop-outs.
 

Second:  you had breeze and big fleet?  Before you got to the weather mark you reached down to the extra long vang line ( mine sat in cockpit near my feet) and released vang.  When you rounded you were good to go.  

Third: had marks on vang line indicating where the off breeze position was.   

Practicing mark rounding, in all conditions, could be worth 3-5 boats when clean handling was key.  

 

More accurately described:
 

“....duct-taped the vang ‘key’ to the boom.”

Driving around trying to remember what that fitting is called:   the KEY.

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/jmV9CZJBeqEFgsb99p

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Comet and a stiff brush and maybe some bleach mixed in.  Make sure you wash it in a suitable place.  

 

Also, with the boat flat, put water in the mast step up to deck level and leave it alone for a while.  Make sure the water doesn't drop.  Then the usual buoyancy bubble test.  

That boat has been modernized a bit, hesitate to call it upgraded.  

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I have been working on updating the control systems.

All the different colors are rather garish! I will be buying some new line soon.

Also, please point out anything looks like it violating the Class Rules.

DSCN3971.thumb.JPG.966896e51c9f9d13fc0f7a6e716aa067.JPGDSCN3976.thumb.JPG.91ec18e2674f9d6cb10308c41c7ff108.JPGDSCN3979.thumb.JPG.983c24603ea5b71debde7a3641987488.JPGDSCN3972.thumb.JPG.44037c9cd4a6556e37af875ac361406a.JPG

DSCN3974.thumb.JPG.d2500b75413fffde75b1f465499b983a.JPG

Is the outhaul just supposed to hang like that? It looks so untidy.

here's my last question. In the first pic below, the mainsheet is block-to -block with as much vang tension I could apply using the super vanging method.

Second pic, the mainsheet is eased about a foot, and the mast has straightened considerably. Does that mean there is not enough vang tension? I was using all my strength to pull the boom down...

DSCN3966.thumb.JPG.b58932ca15e5f8ac12865ea83d367e3e.JPG

DSCN3969.thumb.JPG.769480f499a02469f7ad3074a965944c.JPG

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The Laser Class Rules are provided free of charge for anyone to read on the ILCA website - just one of the many valuable services provided by ILCA. You can easily check for yourself if all your rigging innovations are class legal.

http://laserinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-Laser-Class-Rules.pdf

Please consider joining the class if you want to support the class's work.

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On 9/3/2020 at 11:23 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

Is the outhaul just supposed to hang like that? It looks so untidy.

Yeah kinda.   That's a hack kind of "mid school" out haul setup.  The two rings pull together and it just kind of hangs.   You want it to be tight when out haul is at max out, one hand span depth of sail at the boom with the vang neutral.  Get a clew tie-down as well. 

It nominally doesn't catch on anything.  Except occasionally the centre board down wind in a gybe when you are least able to deal with it. 

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I would leave "super-vanging" alone for the time being. At this stage, block to block max vang will be just fine. That old sail is going to get blown out pretty quickly without additional stress. Plus - it is a difficult skill to master. 

As above, get a clew tie down. Then, make sure your traveler is tight - there should be a groove mark in that wooden tiller where the traveler is gradually sawing its way through. Now sheet in block to block and bring in the slack on the vang. That's all you need for now.

That outhaul does look nasty. I don't recall ever having anything quite like that and I would simplify things for now. Perhaps just lash a small block onto the clew; dead end the outhaul line on the fairlead; run it through the block, back through the pulley then forward through the cleat. Loops hanging from the boom should be avoided...

Have you done a leak test? That should be done before you launch.

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On 9/3/2020 at 3:38 AM, tillerman said:

The Laser Class Rules are provided free of charge for anyone to read on the ILCA website - just one of the many valuable services provided by ILCA. You can easily check for yourself if all your rigging innovations are class legal.

http://laserinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-Laser-Class-Rules.pdf

Please consider joining the class if you want to support the class's work.

Or you can just ignore their list of buy our class approved stuff and go sailing.  

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On 9/2/2020 at 9:07 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

Here are the pics of the Laser I picked up today.

DSCN3935.thumb.JPG.ca8bd6272682ddf8728ccab7e2094ae0.JPGDSCN3938.thumb.JPG.507a0f88969d3630e41f9e45537be3fe.JPGDSCN3945.thumb.JPG.18a9e3dae9c0f68e6fad18918172cf89.JPGDSCN3947.thumb.JPG.9cbdb25bbf4d168fdc774233e0a5b708.JPGDSCN3951.thumb.JPG.91141014b923a96edf7837d1ee0a2e86.JPGDSCN3953.thumb.JPG.e10cad93ada3745266cd52f3d6130726.JPGDSCN3955.thumb.JPG.c56c26053a5729da72feceead0e2a85d.JPGDSCN3957.thumb.JPG.2e96517db972cc26fa5cf7217262782a.JPGDSCN3939.thumb.JPG.f940a48fddd22f36fd3544b986f7b082.JPGDSCN3956.thumb.JPG.2fa6b9e1a5d0d95d697ec1fb57e71d5a.JPG

Any suggestions for removing the mildew on the deck? I have already tried scrubbing it with washing soda and soap, it didn't seem to help though

Barkeeper's Friend is some amazing shit for cleaning boats and it is cheap as chips.

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Hi guys! I was sailing the new laser yesterday on a beautiful evening.What a great boat to sail.

Everything worked well and Dad took some fabulous photos as well,

I opened the plug after the sail and there wasn't a drop of water in the hull. Quite surprising! 

https://www.amorisenyfineart.com/Sailing/Sailing-the-New-Laser/n-vtgrpk/ Enjoy!

FirstLaserSail-045.jpgFirstLaserSail-127.jpg

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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Hi guys! I was sailing the new laser yesterday on a beautiful evening.What a great boat to sail.

Everything worked well and Dad took some fabulous photos as well,

I opened the plug after the sail and there wasn't a drop of water in the hull. Quite surprising! 

https://www.amorisenyfineart.com/Sailing/Sailing-the-New-Laser/n-vtgrpk/ Enjoy!

FirstLaserSail-045.jpgFirstLaserSail-127.jpg

Good on ya!

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Don’t use duct tape for your boom key. Electrical tape works better and leaves no residue. It’s good for repairs and marking settings. 
 

As far as rigging goes. In most Laser fleets except for the very serious ones are always open to new sailors and old boats. Everyone knows that a new vang or sail is worth more than the boat. 
 

At the club level and some of the regional races they will let you use generic parts and training sails(iSails or Intensity). 

There is no advantage to using non Laser parts. No one cares. 
 

If I had an old boat. I would find a pile of used Harken bullet blocks. Most dinghy sailors have a bucket of those and a few corroded alloy clam cleats. You can use a couple of them to run 2 cascades on the original vang. That gives you 12:1. You will have more trouble uncleating it than pulling it in. Use a couple more on the down haul and the out haul. I would encourage you to buy the generic Nautos deck cleat for the outhaul & downhaul. 
 

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11 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Hi guys! I was sailing the new laser yesterday on a beautiful evening.What a great boat to sail.

Everything worked well and Dad took some fabulous photos as well,

I opened the plug after the sail and there wasn't a drop of water in the hull. Quite surprising! 

https://www.amorisenyfineart.com/Sailing/Sailing-the-New-Laser/n-vtgrpk/ Enjoy!

FirstLaserSail-045.jpgFirstLaserSail-127.jpg

Outstanding. A vintage boat and color for sure but it will do you fine. 

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