Jump to content

Recommended Posts

i know this guy Barry. he worked with Ketterman and Long on LONGSHOT and broke world records with rigs made with Wing masts.

I know he gives exactly one fuck what anybody thinks 'cause he had a thirty year career making people eat their words.

He likes fast. Antrim lives for fast. 20K lbs should scoot fine. Just like Raison brought his idea to the minis for mocking and derision, and then kicked their ass, time will tell here. and don't judge that monomaran long straight waterline.

the only thing truly fugly is a bow shape that seems designed to pick up the ocean and drop on deck... that's mos fugly... and stupid.

total rig weight above the deck will be under 400 lbs. plenty of sail area for easy cruising, one halyard, one sheet. elder love.

and I'll bet you there's a lot to learn about how the junk rig functions and Antrim might get that right too.

party barge? shit yeah. since when is cruising serious?

wait for it

SJ

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Scowjunkie said:

I know he gives exactly one fuck what anybody thinks 'cause he had a thirty year career making people eat their words.

He likes fast.

I not saying it's gonna be slow but if you wanna be fast its all about looking good. Why do you think owners keeping buying collared shirts. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Are we sure it isn't the cabin trunk for the new Wally, being built upside down so they can flip it into position on the hull more easily?  That guy Ed gets around a good bit - it could be from anywhere. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

i heard Cree wants to win the transpac sitting in lawn chairs. it should rate pretty interesting... shallow, wide, crazy prismatic, small sail area...

from what i know, 14kts reaching is in the sights. should track like a train.

SJ

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The RSX olympic windsurfboard was significant faster than the traditional arrow shapped boards.
The board. nicknamed "the pancake" builds a aircushion between the board and the watersurface that provide lift and therefore is is drag reducant..
Despite the wider nose it's faster.
rsx.jpg.8903d89a66a7c14e10ac3bd4e56a2e77.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is nice to see all of the rebuttals to the doubters and haters in the last few posts.  According to ScowJunkie the owner has a history of sailing fast.  Antrim has designed many fast boats.  Scows have long been proven to be fast.  This boat ticks all of the boxes for me: relatively fast, comfortable and easy to sail.  Function creates beauty.  Being a fashion victim....not so much.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

let's have a history investigation. surely someone can 'point' out exactly when humans began putting the point on the front. this has now been developed into the realm of stupid, especially when you think about designs that seem to sail half underwater with the lower portion of sails full of the sea as well, and everyone revels at the thought of spending time hiding from the danger of a wall of water flushing the deck.

the best part is when the crews are restricted from bringing anything 'heavy' on board to 'save weight'. how much does that water on deck weigh?, or when it's filled the cockpit? does that added displacement make the boat more stable or faster?

the point on the front. almost any shape, is dumb as a hundred years of dumb can make it.

change my mind.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Scowjunkie said:

let's have a history investigation. surely someone can 'point' out exactly when humans began putting the point on the front. this has now been developed into the realm of stupid, especially when you think about designs that seem to sail half underwater with the lower portion of sails full of the sea as well, and everyone revels at the thought of spending time hiding from the danger of a wall of water flushing the deck.

the best part is when the crews are restricted from bringing anything 'heavy' on board to 'save weight'. how much does that water on deck weigh?, or when it's filled the cockpit? does that added displacement make the boat more stable or faster?

the point on the front. almost any shape, is dumb as a hundred years of dumb can make it.

change my mind.

 

Not saying this works for every case, but it sure seems to work here...

race4(1)-2.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

I am Groote Beer!

- Stumbling

I spent a month back in 74 or so sanding on Groot Beer, only sanding, until the guy who was going to apply the finish said "ok that's good"

Museum Quality boat.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

cats... points are more logical perhaps. but who has tried the greenough spoon bow on something you want to go fast?

the spoon doesn't have to be big, just soft and lifty. george knew and did shit so right so long before anyone else. definitely lived a life not quite touching earth.

boats are simply a product of evolution. the chinese were doing cool shit 1500 years ago, all lost in the destruction of history by the ego of a mandarin.

To break a paradigm you have to prove the idea, often again and again, especially if there are significant financial interests being harmed by the shift. why didn't people want more wylie cat rigs? more freedom yachts? nonesuch? what stifled those expressions? did the boats not work well? if the scow junk doesn't work the laughter will be loud and loaded with appropriate insults.   

if a lone effective scow design got into a tp-52 fleet and was demonstrably quicker, there would be some owners not happy to have value in the boats, at least for top level racing, be largely lost. the resistance can be expected.

and to have the concept demonstrated at the AC level? pressure against for sure.

meanwhile, some fool keeps wasting perfectly good vinyl ester resin on this turd/potato. and the boat builder is chuckling because he knows he will be building more. shit... i heard there was a mini-me dinghy that has been turned into a sensible 9'6" ocean voyager called CHUBBY GIRL. even the dinghy world might like them.

SJ

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

I am Groote Beer!

- Stumbling

I was on Groote Beer when it was here decades ago. Had the most incredible woodwork on deck and below. Basketweave countertops completely immersed in varnish.

Surprisingly small interior for such a huge boat - not much bigger than a 38' contemporary boat - except the beam.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2020 at 10:32 AM, See Level said:

I like it, 

...

And that

gbeer.1988.sf_.jpg

Quite an amusing story about the Groote Beer, with quite a moral story for US voters at the end:

https://sea-to-summit.net/the-amazing-life-of-the-groote-beer-and-jack-van-ommen/

And this is a truly breathtaking video of the same Groote Beer on its way to the yard right in the harbour of an old fishing village. This after an earlier refit when the sling broke at launch, and she fell 5 meter, smashing half the wooden botter.

Sorry for the thread drift, but it's all about scows, which comes from the dutch Schouw or Skou. And botter translates as "blunter", how appropriate!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2020 at 6:35 AM, surfsailor said:

Barry S's new boat. IMO it's going to be awesome.

I was wondering if that was Barry's new boat. I saw those drawings two years ago. As someone else in this thread mentioned, the owner gives exactly zero fucks what anyone else thinks of his boat. He is an eccentric individual, a bit quirky, but he's a genius and a great dude. He has helped me out many times over the years. He basically innovated and revolutionized the wind surfing game and won a ton of titles and records as a rig and sail designer. He has a WestSail 42 now and likes being comfortable with his wife, but then he wanted to go fast while downwind cruising in the trades. So he thought up a concept to do just that and then hired a naval architect to design it, and then shopped around for a builder. When Barry is cruising fast with his lovely wife and sipping a glass of wine at 14 knots, he'll be the one getting the last laugh. Certainly not built for everyone's tastes, but then again Barry isn't trying to fit in. He built a boat a long time ago in SF and then partied with Moitessier in French Polynesia back in the day. Lost the boat in New Zealand though, when his crew fucked up while on night watch and they hit the bricks. ACtually wrote a pretty cool book about it called 'letters to Mom' or something, where he took all his letters that he sent to  his mom and then filled in the blanks and wrote a book about his early days from a vagabond to biulding a boat to a vagahbond again and then to moving to Maui and dominating the wind surfing industry. The dude is legit. Haters gonna hate, players gonna play, Barry gonna cruise like e'eryday

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2020 at 3:03 AM, Stocky said:

Looks like it tracks upwind like shit but hauls ass of the breeze. I don't know how I feel about Scow bows on anything other than scows... Looks a little like a turd 

"Even a turd is tapered at both ends" Ted Turner.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m old enough to remember some of the rule-beater boats (Cascade, e.g.) made up to beat the IOR rules.  Man, those boats were ugly—both the rule beaters and the pinch-ended, under-ruddered, broach-happy IOR boats they beat.  This boat is being built without regard to rating rules, but instead to sail especially well under specific circumstances, rules (rating and “traditional” aesthetic) be damned.  I like that.  If it sails fast, it’s a success.  I’d much rather look at this boat than one more goddamn euro-style deck salon clone from one of the major builders. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jerome Milgram - now there is a blast from the past.   What was that freakish looking boat of his that made all the stir down at SORC during the Carter era (Dick, Jimmy, Billy)?   If I recall, it was a massive rule beater that freaked out the IOR math of the time.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Delta Dog said:

Jerome Milgram - now there is a blast from the past.   What was that freakish looking boat of his that made all the stir down at SORC during the Carter era (Dick, Jimmy, Billy)?   If I recall, it was a massive rule beater that freaked out the IOR math of the time.   

That would be Cascade.  Loophole was it was a Cat Ketch and IOR wasn't intending to measure those.  Probably should never have been allowed to measure IMO 

Much like Gord Trowers Mach 1 - which never got built because it was basically deemed unmeasurable - although his slightly less radical Warbird did get built and measured.

Photo below is after they closed the loophole so they put a Star jib on Cascade to meet the minimum jib requirement.

Cascade 1983.jpg

Also Trower's  Mach 1 and Warbird

Mach 1.jpg

Warbird 2.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Was at BMC today. The scow is in the paint shed, but she’s been there awhile. Yard says mostly fitted out, bottom was getting longboarded. That’s a big bow!

oh, and a Classe40 getting ready for a SF to SF keep-the-Capes-to-port run.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

 I’d much rather look at this boat than one more goddamn euro-style deck salon clone from one of the major builders. 

Hey dude by agreeing with all the other people wanting to show how hip and free thinking they are by hating on production boats, you show you are a true anarchist.

Wait. Oh never mind...

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2020 at 8:29 AM, Topmast said:

Fastest man-made object ever, set a record speed of 157,078 mph. Looks like a turd.. Just saying, just because it doesn't fit a standard model, doesn't mean it can't fast fast...

man-made-objects-5.jpg

And the wave making characteristics of a vacuum are exactly what?  LOA to the 26th power?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 Form follows function.

 

Imagine you are the WLYDO and this client, whom you sort of know of, shows up at your door. He's not Joshua Slocum, but he didn't just sell the farm in Iowa to buy a Mac-86.

In fact, in his young adulthood he built a 38' Atkin - Ingrid sailboat, in the sense he literally constructed it himself, everything ... right down to the custom cast bronze fittings. And he  cruised it in the Pacific Ocean from San Francisco to New Zealand.

 

I lifted the design brief from https://reddogyachts.com/sv-rosie-g

  • Monohull
  • Outside ballast, preferably cast lead for grounding
  • Modern junk rig with 200 lb carbon mast and engineered sail structure
  • Cockpit to galley/nav/dining same level feel. No ladders.
  • Forward flush deck
  • Scow bow 8’0” wide 2’0” back
  • Electric power
  • Large deck hatches
  • LOA 42’0”
  • Beam 14’0”
  • LWL 41’0”
  • Draft 4’0” (7’6” board down)
  • Displacement 20,000 lb
  • Ballast (cast lead) 7,500 lb
  • Sail Area 842 Sq Ft

Now there is lot to agree with, and some things to object to:

  • The monohull - mutihull debate will go on forever. Monohulls should recover from a rollover. +
  • Intentional grounding should always be considered for a cruising boat. +  Outside ballast with stainless steel bolts is debatable. -
  • The 'modern' junk rig has been around for 1500 years, one halyard, one sheet, no chainplates, no shrouds, no spreaders, no chafe. +
  • Cockpit to galley/nav/dining same level. No ladders. This is the real crux. For 99.9% of your time you're at anchor and this walkspace is a real godsend. +  For that 0.00001% of the time when a wave crashes into the stern cockpit, is it too much water below the sheerline ? Is the 'companionway hatch' into the doghouse strong enough?
  • Forward flush deck +
  • Scow bow 8'0" wide 2'0" back means space to store bicycles, sups, inflatables etc below deck during passages. The interior volume is equivalent to a modern 55-60 footer. +
  • Electric [propulsion] power  meh
  • Large deck hatches +
  • Ballast / Displacement = 7500 lb / 20000 lb = 0.375  
  • Sail Area / Displacement = 842 sq ft / ((20000 lb / 64 lb-cu ft)^2/3) = 18  suggests relatively high performance +

Row away factor:

Just holding up a piece of paper to the screen, it looks like a slight reverse sheer. I like short overhangs so the profile is rather handsome. A hard doghouse means shelter from the rain and sun. You don't like scow bows? HTFU

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

barry's from an era way gone. he didn't know what OG stood for, so i told him if mr clean hit that he should be happy. then i said it meant 'old guy' and he just chuckled.

i see the cockpit seats looking like there might be a door in the transom to offer big drain, and cree said there would be big drains at the back of the cockpit floor too.

i can see no reason why there can't be inside steering as well

SJ

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Scowjunkie said:

barry's from an era way gone. he didn't know what OG stood for, so i told him if mr clean hit that he should be happy. then i said it meant 'old guy' and he just chuckled.

Lack of reading comprehension or taking the piss, or both?

PS.

The acronym for old man is SOF, you can choose which of the 2 applies to you... :P

 

Edited by Fiji Bitter
PS
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/2/2020 at 1:03 PM, Stocky said:

Looks like it tracks upwind like shit but hauls ass of the breeze. I don't know how I feel about Scow bows on anything other than scows... Looks a little like a turd 

 

Ted Turner to Britt Chance:

"Hell Britt, even a turd is pointed on both ends!"

Link to post
Share on other sites

earlier i asked, " let's have a history investigation. surely someone can 'point' out exactly when humans began putting the point on the front. this has now been developed into the realm of stupid, especially when you think about designs that seem to sail half underwater with the lower portion of sails full of the sea as well, and everyone revels at the thought of spending time hiding from the danger of a wall of water flushing the deck."

still no answer.

does it matter how long we have been fooled?

SJ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone ever noticed that  the most populair youth boat "The Optimist" has a blunt nose as well?
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=576857419682095Optimist.thumb.jpg.30f5f8008383f4beba2d59db9107cd62.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

The scow bow makes so much sense that it scares the fuck out of people who buy boats to impress their enemies.

Hull form stability, acres of room for cruisers.  Anyway, no cruisers I know bash to windward if they can avoid it. 

Slocum would like it.

image.png.1c08bab090ccaa17c887fabd70a539c8.png

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2020 at 6:27 PM, Fiji Bitter said:

Quite an amusing story about the Groote Beer, with quite a moral story for US voters at the end:

https://sea-to-summit.net/the-amazing-life-of-the-groote-beer-and-jack-van-ommen/

And this is a truly breathtaking video of the same Groote Beer on its way to the yard right in the harbour of an old fishing village. This after an earlier refit when the sling broke at launch, and she fell 5 meter, smashing half the wooden botter.

Sorry for the thread drift, but it's all about scows, which comes from the dutch Schouw or Skou. And botter translates as "blunter", how appropriate!

 

INteresting! I had never seen a platbodem in the US, nor a schokker with a cabin or painted white. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally get the hull. I need some help with the rig. 

To the best of my knowledge junk rigs are reaching / downwind only. So that is fine for the Milk run, but then what do you do for the beat to NZ? Electric power and a Max Prop?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jono said:

I totally get the hull. I need some help with the rig. 

To the best of my knowledge junk rigs are reaching / downwind only. So that is fine for the Milk run, but then what do you do for the beat to NZ? Electric power and a Max Prop?

Why not circumnavigation?

Link to post
Share on other sites

who has ever had a junk rig made with 100% carbon and hydranet, designed by someone familiar with high speed sailing, and as yet unseen new ideas? the whole argument that a 'junk' rig can't make a boat go to weather is completely specious. 'junk' rigs go to weather all the time and who knows on such an odd hull?. maybe no as fast, or as close, but again, who knows? an argument based on total zero experience.

sail trim is all about angle of attack. seems that the 'junk' rig has some good control over that? maybe trimming above the centerline with proper twist aloft will make lots of effective power? no angle of attack and you don't have shit, just a pretty foil shape doing nothing, bernoulli be damned.

who put the point on the front first? check out this sweet ride. dry deck to weather doing 8-9, rocket of the wind to 15. dry. beating a 30+ footer to weather. yikes. who put the point on?

SJ

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2020 at 6:27 PM, Fiji Bitter said:

Quite an amusing story about the Groote Beer, with quite a moral story for US voters at the end:

https://sea-to-summit.net/the-amazing-life-of-the-groote-beer-and-jack-van-ommen/

And this is a truly breathtaking video of the same Groote Beer on its way to the yard right in the harbour of an old fishing village. This after an earlier refit when the sling broke at launch, and she fell 5 meter, smashing half the wooden botter.

Sorry for the thread drift, but it's all about scows, which comes from the dutch Schouw or Skou. And botter translates as "blunter", how appropriate!

 

Thanking this thread for the link above, and inspiration:  Having spent ~5 months cruising all over Netherland's canals and casually reading about Jack Van Ommen in Latitude 38 I got myself into a rabbit hole reading about the Groote Beer.  I've seen so many cool traditional, huge and small, old and new, boats over there.  I've been to that busy, ancient, traditional boat yard in Spankenburg where they repaired GB.  It was almost like being transported back to the 1600's, the golden age of that once powerful country.  I'm having deja vu wondering if I saw the her in my wanderings there, its spectacular carvings seem familiar.  Or, if I'd seen it locally during its decade or so in Seattle.  Interesting that local restauranteur Stuart Anderson owned her and then he gave her to the Sea Scouts.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2020 at 11:34 AM, Left Shift said:

And the wave making characteristics of a vacuum are exactly what?  LOA to the 26th power?

Just because it doesn't fit a standard model, doesn't mean it can't fast fast^27

Link to post
Share on other sites

"oh that’s what it is".

Noticed a greatly enhanced version of Ronnie's post #48, about Barrie Spanked and his Cow Junk (purple font).

Worth a trip to the dark side, methinks.

https://sailinganarchy.com/2020/09/09/oh-thats-what-it-is/

Looks like he is avoiding New Zealand this time, but we may see him in Fiji...

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

bazza'z cow junk might be like the IMOCA with pushing the rules cow bow who just whipped all the other boys by 2 knots at only low twenties in a 'speed contest'..

cow junks are red

and besides, only bulls got junk.

SJ

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya know, what a bunch of old fuddy duddies sailors are. From these forums, and this thread in particular, I have learned almost anything that differs from classic design aesthetics, will be judged as - "Ugly" "soulless" "horrible"  "terrible" "Slow " Wet"  "POS"  or any of a long list of negative descriptors. I wonder how many people secretly kind of like it but would rather jump on the slam bandwagon to be part of the gang.

To bad for you guys, and good for me, that the sport is not stagnant. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you guys had your way we would pretty much be stuck with Hereshoff and S&S design ideals and never would have had any innovation whatsoever.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Baldur said:

If you guys had your way we would pretty much be stuck with Hereshoff and S&S design ideals and never would have had any innovation whatsoever.

Not really.  Innovators are motivated by naysayers.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...