kent_island_sailor

Used boat with rod rigging

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Take it as a given that almost NO ONE has had their rigging replaced since the boat was new 20-30-40 years ago and likely never inspected either, does every used boat with rod have a past due bill waiting for you that might be a very significant fraction of the value of the boat?

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Just like the previous owners who have not given it any thought, it's up to your personal risk assessment (and your insurance carrier, altho rig surveys are almost never done)

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I was in the same situation as you.  I dropped the mast and had an expert inspect it very carefully.  I also pulled the aluminum chain plates which turned out to have severe corrosion (about 1/2 half way through) hidden by the deck which could not have been discovered, unless we pulled one of them, that was scary.  I replaced them with  beefed up stainless ones. This was in a boat which had been in fresh water since 1996. Coming up on four years of ownership and I am going to replace the rod this winter, mostly for piece of mind.

 

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Take it as a given that almost NO ONE has had their rigging replaced since the boat was new 20-30-40 years ago and likely never inspected either, does every used boat with rod have a past due bill waiting for you that might be a very significant fraction of the value of the boat?

Are you shopping??? Your boat is like family!

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Take it as a given that almost NO ONE has had their rigging replaced since the boat was new 20-30-40 years ago and likely never inspected either, does every used boat with rod have a past due bill waiting for you that might be a very significant fraction of the value of the boat?

Baloney. On my old boat I had the wire and swages dye tested at 25, then everything replaced at 30, just cos.

On this boat the rod heads are inspected every Marion-Bermuda year, which means this winter. The previous owner had it done every year, since he did Bermuda every year, and S. Coast of Nflnd most years. Probably overkill, but not really expensive. 

It depends on the duty cycle you expect of your boat. I'm 65 cruising with my wife. It's easier to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of trouble. 

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Take it as a given that almost NO ONE has had their rigging replaced since the boat was new 20-30-40 years ago and likely never inspected either, does every used boat with rod have a past due bill waiting for you that might be a very significant fraction of the value of the boat?

Not true on the first part. Not true on the second. Possible on the third. 
you used a broad brush on those statements. 

 

2 hours ago, longy said:

Just like the previous owners who have not given it any thought, it's up to your personal risk assessment (and your insurance carrier, altho rig surveys are almost never done)

I know a rig shop that routinely does rig surveys for boat sales, although it’s usually at the perspective buyers request. That would jibe with Kent’s concerns. 

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Are you shopping??? Your boat is like family!

Maybe...maybe not..

Comparing the costs of some upgrades right now vs. buying a boat that has them already.

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We've replaced all the standing/running rigging, toggles, blocks and chain plates.  Why go to sea with suspect gear?  Snatch loads in a seaway are big and sometimes you just fuck up.  It's good to have stuff that mostly won't break.  Rigging isn't that expensive.

IMG_20200522_084606_compress23.jpg

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Not that expensive compared to what? Replacing all the rod on a 40 foot boat would probably very easily exceed $10K. For a new 40 foot boat, that is probably about the same as the tax to register it. For an old one, that could easily be 25% of the price of the entire boat or more.

Wire I can just do myself.

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Hi KIS.  I just did rods on a 40’er by a top notch shop in NE.  Rig was out of the boat already.  All in cost was about $7.5k.  The headstay/furler can be an issue that adds to the cost. I have an old Harken unit that probably added $800 in labor.  This was for a relatively light displacement boat so a heavy crab crusher will be more.  On an older boat, you are correct that it can be a big percentage of the boat value.  If you can dress and undress the mast yourself, you can save a couple boat bucks.  Having the rods replicated wasnt as pricey as I was expecting.  The labor will get you.  
 

if you are going offshore I think you need to plan on new rods unless they have been well documented.  

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34 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not that expensive compared to what? Replacing all the rod on a 40 foot boat would probably very easily exceed $10K

It wasn’t nearly that expensive on my 37’ boat. It was about 15% of purchase price and inline with the post above.  Double spreader rig.

It isn’t hard to spend that much on a mainsail, so I don’t consider it to be that crazy. 

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If you are not going to race, just plan on replacing with wire, or skip inspecting & just replace the rod.  Most rod terminals of that era had a 'dimple' punched in the side mechanically locking the insert. These cannot be un-done. Some fancy spar fittings can only take rod rigging. Re- heading will take 1" to 1.56" per end, do your t/b's have enuff spare length? You really need to itemize the job to get cost estimate's even close

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Take it as a given that almost NO ONE has had their rigging replaced since the boat was new 20-30-40 years ago and likely never inspected either, does every used boat with rod have a past due bill waiting for you that might be a very significant fraction of the value of the boat?

Yes...need new stuff 

Remember to Add headstay foil, backstay cylinder , sheaves and boxes , All mast electric wires  , mast step inspection   , gooseneck service 

A typical 40 footer  rig could chew up 25 grand fast 

While your at it remember the rudder bearing ,  engine running gear , anti foul removal 

And keep a sharp lookout for high moisture in the underwater laminate , osmosis 

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And have a thermal NDT testing of the hull laminate.

Asteroids! Don't forget to watch for them too.  You can't be too careful.

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not that expensive compared to what? Replacing all the rod on a 40 foot boat would probably very easily exceed $10K. For a new 40 foot boat, that is probably about the same as the tax to register it. For an old one, that could easily be 25% of the price of the entire boat or more.

Wire I can just do myself.

I don't consider any boat job a percentage of the used purchase price, that's just silly considering the market for used boats.  When considering annual maintenance for a used boat look at the price of a comparable new one and factor 1.5~2% of that price.  A new high quality forty footer can easily cost $500k, so spending $7,500 to replace the rod every ten years is not out of line.  Now, if the boat is not maintained and there's a whole heap of deferred maintenance get ready to exceed the 2% till the deficiencies are brought up to par.

Our standing rigging replacement was about $20k last year.  The air draft is 93' and the boat weighs 32 tons.  

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Lifespan for wire rigging is a constant round here, the insurers now ask for new rigging if it’s older than 10 years for a new contract, not so fussy if an existing contract.

Is there a similar rule of thumb for rod rigging?

We recently replaced the wire rigging on a Valiant 40, keel stepped mast so the riggers did it in situ, cost $Aus5g, so less than $US4g.

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3 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

I don't consider any boat job a percentage of the used purchase price, that's just silly considering the market for used boats.  When considering annual maintenance for a used boat look at the price of a comparable new one and factor 1.5~2% of that price.  A new high quality forty footer can easily cost $500k, so spending $7,500 to replace the rod every ten years is not out of line.  Now, if the boat is not maintained and there's a whole heap of deferred maintenance get ready to exceed the 2% till the deficiencies are brought up to par.

Our standing rigging replacement was about $20k last year.  The air draft is 93' and the boat weighs 32 tons.  

I get that in one sense, my boat is 47 years old so even the bottom paint is a big investment percentage wise :rolleyes: On the other hand, I would be very unhappy buying a boat with a very significant amount of deferred maintenance without the price of the boat reflecting that and especially when it isn't something like a new engine or new sails that at least I can point at and say how much better they are than the old ones. 

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Gresham’s law has already pushed used boat prices down pretty hard, ironically  disincentivizing people from maintaining boats properly as the cost of labor and quality parts has certainly not gotten cheaper. 
 

Most used boats, including those well maintained will have some defect that is a significant percentage of the purchase price. 

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12 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not that expensive compared to what? Replacing all the rod on a 40 foot boat would probably very easily exceed $10K. For a new 40 foot boat, that is probably about the same as the tax to register it. For an old one, that could easily be 25% of the price of the entire boat or more.

Wire I can just do myself.

Yes but as is often pointed out here, re-heading rod is a fraction of the cost of replacing it.

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45 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I get that in one sense, my boat is 47 years old so even the bottom paint is a big investment percentage wise :rolleyes: On the other hand, I would be very unhappy buying a boat with a very significant amount of deferred maintenance without the price of the boat reflecting that and especially when it isn't something like a new engine or new sails that at least I can point at and say how much better they are than the old ones. 

Sure, it pays to look at a used boat with an honest and open appraisal.  A good surveyor will find most of the deficiencies and if you are allowed to do an in depth inspection of the boat you'll find others.  But there will be surprises especially if the boats been sitting for a while.  

Add up all the decencies you believe you'll have to resolve if you purchase the boat and make an offer that you believe is fair.

There are lots of used boats or there, don't be afraid to walk.

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Yes but as is often pointed out here, re-heading rod is a fraction of the cost of replacing it.

*If you can get it out of the fittings*

A rigging survey seems well worth the $$$ to find stuff like that out.

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just remember if it's continuous rod, re-heading the rod isn't really an option, due to changing the spreader angle.

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When pondering the cost of replacing old standing rigging, it's probably comforting to deduct the cost of a new mast.

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This is purely a matter of risk/reward and a combination of the depths of an individuals pocket and their risk appetite. The guy who mentioned he's 65 and cruises with his wife and doesn't want to have to deal with that is just as right as the young guy who spent everything he has on a 26footer and has nothing left for a new thing...... rig check / EPIRB / watermaker.. insert anything. 

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

*If you can get it out of the fittings*

A rigging survey seems well worth the $$$ to find stuff like that out.

Wouldn't a proper rig survey involve disassembling all the fittings? Seems almost as expensive as replacement?

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5 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Wouldn't a proper rig survey involve disassembling all the fittings? Seems almost as expensive as replacement?

Well step 1 would be "those fittings are ancient and don't come apart, what do you want us to do next" ;)

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Curiously two years ago my insurance company asked for a survey (10 years old) and also insisted on a rig survey to include all standing rigging. It took some back and forth to convince them it was unnecessary as I have none. I was thinking all insurance companies are insisting on this. 

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I got a rigging inspection a couple of years ago with the intention of replacing the rod with wire if necessary. The "inspection" was essentially useless. The rigger spent less than 20 minutes up the mast, according to the time stamp on the photos, and less than 40 minutes overall on the boat. He untaped one spreader end and assumed the rest were in the same shape. I really didn't need an inspection of my lifelines at the same time, but got one anyhow. I was billed for 2 1/2 hours, and when I queried the cost, I was told they account for all the time between when the rigger put tools down on the previous job to when he picked up tools on the next job. Obviously, there's some twice-billed time involved in that little game.

When I first agreed to the inspection, I was told they could switch the rig to wire for around $4500. That sounded reasonable, and I was interested in going that way. By the time I had a written quote, the total was over $9000 and rising. The compression tube and fittings were priced at over $1000 each. They would machine new sheaves in-house for the masthead exit boxes @ some ridiculous price instead of finding a stock replacement or having new sheaves made by Zephyrworks. The yard has a reputation for quality, but also a reputation of going wildly over budget. So I told them to get lost. I'm still looking for a rigger that will do the job for a reasonable price.

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31 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I got a rigging inspection a couple of years ago with the intention of replacing the rod with wire if necessary. The "inspection" was essentially useless. The rigger spent less than 20 minutes up the mast, according to the time stamp on the photos, and less than 40 minutes overall on the boat. He untaped one spreader end and assumed the rest were in the same shape. I really didn't need an inspection of my lifelines at the same time, but got one anyhow. I was billed for 2 1/2 hours, and when I queried the cost, I was told they account for all the time between when the rigger put tools down on the previous job to when he picked up tools on the next job. Obviously, there's some twice-billed time involved in that little game.

When I first agreed to the inspection, I was told they could switch the rig to wire for around $4500. That sounded reasonable, and I was interested in going that way. By the time I had a written quote, the total was over $9000 and rising. The compression tube and fittings were priced at over $1000 each. They would machine new sheaves in-house for the masthead exit boxes @ some ridiculous price instead of finding a stock replacement or having new sheaves made by Zephyrworks. The yard has a reputation for quality, but also a reputation of going wildly over budget. So I told them to get lost. I'm still looking for a rigger that will do the job for a reasonable price.

Is "reasonable" like porn, you'll know it when you see it?

For a full service yard, it's about $1k for them to do anything, once you include all the staging and "protect the boat" kind of stuff.

Back in the day they might give you wholesale on the parts, but nowadays they seem to charge retail plus a healthy markup. Seems silly to me to overcharge on something so easily uncovered and despite they fact they would make money at retail.  

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     I asked the new owner of a 18 year old sloop if he had gotten the rod rigging electro fluxed or even dye penetrant tested after the boat had been shipped to the US from Europe when he bought it. He said that his brothers had given the rig a 'visual' inspection when they re-stepped the rig upon arrival and everything 'looked' OK to them. He said that the boat had only been raced once when it was new and had been in storage ever since so he wasn't concerned. 

    We were on our way out to the race course for the boats first race under new ownership and it was howling and I fully expected the committee to scrub the race since they couldn't get the committee boat anchor and marks were blowing around all over the place. We bounced around through two postponements when the start sequence finally began. That was about the time I had inquired about the history of the rod rigging and the skip/owner sort of told me not to distract him with such 'Sky is Falling' questions as he was trying to get into competition mode for the race. I did persist in asking just why the boat had been a 'one and done' racer and what race it had done. He told me 'the Whitbread Race if you must know...'

    I left him alone and went to fill my role as asked but winced as the boat fell off the growing seas with a crash and the whole rig shook with the impact. Five minutes after our start the rig came crashing down and after we had cut it away I found the peened head of the D1 laying in the scupper so picked it up and just dropped it in the skippers hand with no further comment...

    I'm not the king of guy to say I told you so, but... 

The Crowley Advisor: Rod Rigging

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37 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

     I asked the new owner of a 18 year old sloop if he had gotten the rod rigging electro fluxed or even dye penetrant tested after the boat had been shipped to the US from Europe when he bought it. He said that his brothers had given the rig a 'visual' inspection when they re-stepped the rig upon arrival and everything 'looked' OK to them. He said that the boat had only been raced once when it was new and had been in storage ever since so he wasn't concerned. 

    We were on our way out to the race course for the boats first race under new ownership and it was howling and I fully expected the committee to scrub the race since they couldn't get the committee boat anchor and marks were blowing around all over the place. We bounced around through two postponements when the start sequence finally began. That was about the time I had inquired about the history of the rod rigging and the skip/owner sort of told me not to distract him with such 'Sky is Falling' questions as he was trying to get into competition mode for the race. I did persist in asking just why the boat had been a 'one and done' racer and what race it had done. He told me 'the Whitbread Race if you must know...'

    I left him alone and went to fill my role as asked but winced as the boat fell off the growing seas with a crash and the whole rig shook with the impact. Five minutes after our start the rig came crashing down and after we had cut it away I found the peened head of the D1 laying in the scupper so picked it up and just dropped it in the skippers hand with no further comment...

    I'm not the king of guy to say I told you so, but... 

The Crowley Advisor: Rod Rigging

Our rod was only 12 years old, BUT had a transpac and return, and 12 years in the salt and sun of SoCal. 
 

it’s all new now...

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

Is "reasonable" like porn, you'll know it when you see it?

For a full service yard, it's about $1k for them to do anything, once you include all the staging and "protect the boat" kind of stuff.

Back in the day they might give you wholesale on the parts, but nowadays they seem to charge retail plus a healthy markup. Seems silly to me to overcharge on something so easily uncovered and despite they fact they would make money at retail.  

See, this is why I do shit myself.

Even paying for Gucci Hayn Hi-Mod compression fittings for the lower AND upper ends of all the shrouds, it was still many hundreds of dollars cheaper for me to re-rig my boat myself.  I sailed the shit out of that Pearson afterwards in all kinds of chop.

I'm not saying riggers are ripping people off, I'm just saying that *I* cannot afford the labor and $1k in staging and prep work.

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2 hours ago, Elegua said:

Is "reasonable" like porn, you'll know it when you see it?

For a full service yard, it's about $1k for them to do anything, once you include all the staging and "protect the boat" kind of stuff.

Back in the day they might give you wholesale on the parts, but nowadays they seem to charge retail plus a healthy markup. Seems silly to me to overcharge on something so easily uncovered and despite they fact they would make money at retail.  

With a visual inspection you are basically looking for rust bleeds and general condition ... it means little 

a proper inspection takes the rig out,   disassembles everything , shop inspects the rigging then reassembles

since this is labor intensive .. costly .. most folks simply replace the rod 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Ajax said:

See, this is why I do shit myself.

Even paying for Gucci Hayn Hi-Mod compression fittings for the lower AND upper ends of all the shrouds, it was still many hundreds of dollars cheaper for me to re-rig my boat myself.  I sailed the shit out of that Pearson afterwards in all kinds of chop.

I'm not saying riggers are ripping people off, I'm just saying that *I* cannot afford the labor and $1k in staging and prep work.

I try to do as much myself as I can. But I live too far away from my boat for big jobs; I'm their bitch for now. 

 

16 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

With a visual inspection you are basically looking for rust bleeds and general condition

I agree. I can screw that up myself for $100hr. 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

With a visual inspection you are basically looking for rust bleeds and general condition ... it means little 

a proper inspection takes the rig out,   disassembles everything , shop inspects the rigging then reassembles

since this is labor intensive .. costly .. most folks simply replace the rod 

 

 

Inspecting our rig, with the mast horizontal and all rod taken to the spar maker is about $8k.  New rod is about double that.

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Don’t know what boat you have 

15 grand sounds about twice too much for rod on a 40 footer 

The last two 40 footers 

new rod  package for a  IMX40 , triple spreader 

new rod package for an X-41 , double spreader 

FF79C6B9-3CDD-4E2E-8632-B657EBCA8176.jpeg

D590A922-F778-43D3-9123-5C3E151F0541.jpeg

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Don’t know what boat you have 

15 grand sounds about twice too much for rod on a 40 footer 

The last two 40 footers 

new rod  package for a  IMX40 , triple spreader 

new rod package for an X-41 , double spreader 

FF79C6B9-3CDD-4E2E-8632-B657EBCA8176.jpeg

D590A922-F778-43D3-9123-5C3E151F0541.jpeg

Our boat isn't 40' but your numbers look about right for a forty footer. Our caps are -40.

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had NDT done before a Regatta , dropped the rig 1st race ......

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9 hours ago, Mid said:

had NDT done before a Regatta , dropped the rig 1st race ......

Yep. I posted a photo recently of when we dropped the 170ft rig on a Farr designed Superyacht ... V-1 broke at the terminal, x-rayed 3 months prior and given the all clear.

As for rig inspections, no rigger I know will give a tick and sign off on anything over 10 years. They won't even look... if they're giving a tick for 10 year old rigging, I'd find another rigger.

It's about "cycles". Consider even sitting in your berth, rocking back & forth, each roll or pitch one is a cycle, like it or not. Rig humming or vibrating in wind = cycles. Whoever can nail the amount of cycles before rigging can be  fatigued and due to fail will be a wealthy person. We did cyclic testing at NAVTEC between 20% to 70% of break strain when replacing the rig, most test pieces (rod) failed at what would be the +-10 year mark.

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25 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

Yep. I posted a photo recently of when we dropped the 170ft rig on a Farr designed Superyacht ... V-1 broke at the terminal, x-rayed 3 months prior and given the all clear.

As for rig inspections, no rigger I know will give a tick and sign off on anything over 10 years. They won't even look... if they're giving a tick for 10 year old rigging, I'd find another rigger.

It's about "cycles". Consider even sitting in your berth, rocking back & forth, each roll or pitch one is a cycle, like it or not. Rig humming or vibrating in wind = cycles. Whoever can nail the amount of cycles before rigging can be  fatigued and due to fail will be a wealthy person. We did cyclic testing at NAVTEC between 20% to 70% of break strain when replacing the rig, most test pieces (rod) failed at what would be the +-10 year mark.

yeah, I go 10.

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IIRC many super yachts have strain gauge clevis pins to track load numbers & counts.

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My informal research of classified ads for rod-rigging boats from the 70s and 80s leads me to think well over half have never been touched and some have had partial or total replacement, inspection, or re-heading - once. Of that bunch, odds are fair it was more than 10 years ago and I am 99.9999% sure exactly none of them have replaced anything on a 10 year schedule.

Something to ponder for sure.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My informal research of classified ads for rod-rigging boats from the 70s and 80s leads me to think well over half have never been touched and some have had partial or total replacement, inspection, or re-heading - once. Of that bunch, odds are fair it was more than 10 years ago and I am 99.9999% sure exactly none of them have replaced anything on a 10 year schedule.

Something to ponder for sure.

I remember Bob Perry saying that none of the Valiant 40's have lost their rig, and many are still using the original gear.

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On 9/4/2020 at 12:21 PM, Ishmael said:

I got a rigging inspection a couple of years ago with the intention of replacing the rod with wire if necessary. The "inspection" was essentially useless. The rigger spent less than 20 minutes up the mast, according to the time stamp on the photos, and less than 40 minutes overall on the boat. He untaped one spreader end and assumed the rest were in the same shape. I really didn't need an inspection of my lifelines at the same time, but got one anyhow. I was billed for 2 1/2 hours, and when I queried the cost, I was told they account for all the time between when the rigger put tools down on the previous job to when he picked up tools on the next job. Obviously, there's some twice-billed time involved in that little game.

When I first agreed to the inspection, I was told they could switch the rig to wire for around $4500. That sounded reasonable, and I was interested in going that way. By the time I had a written quote, the total was over $9000 and rising. The compression tube and fittings were priced at over $1000 each. They would machine new sheaves in-house for the masthead exit boxes @ some ridiculous price instead of finding a stock replacement or having new sheaves made by Zephyrworks. The yard has a reputation for quality, but also a reputation of going wildly over budget. So I told them to get lost. I'm still looking for a rigger that will do the job for a reasonable price.

Ishmael...you have a C & C right?  Can you PM me?  Thanks.

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On 9/6/2020 at 9:26 PM, longy said:

IIRC many super yachts have strain gauge clevis pins to track load numbers & counts.

They're reading loads in real time but I doubt they are recording and analysing the loads.

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4 hours ago, sail69 said:

Ishmael...you have a C & C right?  Can you PM me?  Thanks.

PM sent.

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I need to have my nobeltec rod rigging inspected or replaced.  Who would you in the CT/NY/RI/MA area?

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2 minutes ago, Student_Driver said:

I need to have my nobeltec rod rigging inspected or replaced.  Who would you in the CT/NY/RI/MA area?

Do you want your navigation software inspected and replaced or just your NAVTEC rod rigging?

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On 9/8/2020 at 4:55 AM, Ishmael said:

I remember Bob Perry saying that none of the Valiant 40's have lost their rig, and many are still using the original gear.

 Ours broke a spreader in a 360 under a PO thirty years ago, rig stayed up, it’s a single spreader rig but it is wire not rod.
Over its life it has done a couple of 360’s near New Caledonia and a knockdown off South Africa, never a rig problem...

The mast is keel stepped and really over specs for a 40 footer, and the rig has two layers of support, the normal upper sloop rig and a lower rig of staysail, lower stays and soldier stays, which are really permanent runners.

When we replaced the rig, the riggers were fine with doing it standing,  just replaced the lower layer first then the upper layer.

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17 hours ago, olaf hart said:

 Ours broke a spreader in a 360 under a PO thirty years ago, rig stayed up, it’s a single spreader rig but it is wire not rod.
Over its life it has done a couple of 360’s near New Caledonia and a knockdown off South Africa, never a rig problem...

The mast is keel stepped and really over specs for a 40 footer, and the rig has two layers of support, the normal upper sloop rig and a lower rig of staysail, lower stays and soldier stays, which are really permanent runners.

When we replaced the rig, the riggers were fine with doing it standing,  just replaced the lower layer first then the upper layer.

That is impressive, most boats don't seem to keep their rigs.

I can rerig my boat one wire at a time if I have to, a temporary line or halyard will do the trick. I had my backstay off for insulators that way.

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On 9/10/2020 at 4:32 PM, Rasputin22 said:

Do you want your navigation software inspected and replaced or just your NAVTEC rod rigging?

Mostly BSI now.

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19 minutes ago, mgs said:

@Student_Driver

Fun with the internet. The list isn’t totally accurate but it’ll give you a rough idea of Navtec dealers
 

https://web.archive.org/web/20170301081947/http://www.navtecriggingsolutions.com/agents---usa.html

At around 8 years a full rigging survey will reveal failures 

always the question is ...replace the failed pieces and go sailing with a half new , half old set of standing rigging .. or throw it all out and start new 

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13 hours ago, slug zitski said:

At around 8 years a full rigging survey will reveal failures 

always the question is ...replace the failed pieces and go sailing with a half new , half old set of standing rigging .. or throw it all out and start new 

throw it all out and start new. Every time. 

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So what you guys are all saying is I’m totally fine with my original 1994 rod rigging

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1 hour ago, Alaris said:

So what you guys are all saying is I’m totally fine with my original 1994 rod rigging

How about 84 or 70 something? I still maintain "replace all the rigging" is not a thing for a lot of boats unless it breaks. I know a couple people with 60s era boats and original rigging.

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I remember the car talk boys telling a story about a guy who never changed the oil in his car. 

point being: it’s not the norm. Nor is what you are describing. 

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7 hours ago, mgs said:

I remember the car talk boys telling a story about a guy who never changed the oil in his car. 

point being: it’s not the norm. Nor is what you are describing. 

You think people with old Alberg 30s and so on get new rigging every 10 years? Or even every 100 years? That shit is there 'till it breaks. Back when I was working on boats the only people that ever even asked about it were either serious racers or headed across an ocean.

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You think people with old Alberg 30s and so on get new rigging every 10 years? Or even every 100 years? That shit is there 'till it breaks. Back when I was working on boats the only people that ever even asked about it were either serious racers or headed across an ocean.

I’ll disagree with your main point; however, being in Maine with the short sailing season your argument is easy to prove. 
let’s say a boat gets used for 5 months, rig comes down every fall, yes more damage can be done stepping and unstepping but a lot of yards will not leave a mast up for insurance issues, 10 years is an awful short time on the water. Stretch it out to 15-20, that’s a lot of years, plenty of time to take a season or a few off, time for a pandemic to changes your plans. So yeah there are boats with old rigging still sailing up here. 
 

but there are also boats that are well maintained, due to the owners and due to boatyards being diligent, that have their rigging replaced. 
 

what I find absurd is the people who get a rigging inspection as part of a purchase agreement, use the poor report to drive the cost down and then don’t replace the rigging. 

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6 minutes ago, mgs said:

what I find absurd is the people who get a rigging inspection as part of a purchase agreement, use the poor report to drive the cost down and then don’t replace the rigging. 

I'd think that would set you up for insurance heartbreak if you didn't replace and then something did happen? 

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41 minutes ago, mgs said:

I’ll disagree with your main point; however, being in Maine with the short sailing season your argument is easy to prove. 
let’s say a boat gets used for 5 months, rig comes down every fall, yes more damage can be done stepping and unstepping but a lot of yards will not leave a mast up for insurance issues, 10 years is an awful short time on the water. Stretch it out to 15-20, that’s a lot of years, plenty of time to take a season or a few off, time for a pandemic to changes your plans. So yeah there are boats with old rigging still sailing up here. 
 

but there are also boats that are well maintained, due to the owners and due to boatyards being diligent, that have their rigging replaced. 
 

what I find absurd is the people who get a rigging inspection as part of a purchase agreement, use the poor report to drive the cost down and then don’t replace the rigging. 

Masts stay in around here, my mast was out exactly one time in 47 years because I had to fix the mast step, otherwise it would be 0. My business back in the day had a lot of the lower end customers, so I know first hand there is a vast fleet out there that is not getting anything fixed in advance! I would think anyone getting a rigging survey that showed defects better hope their insurance company NEVER finds out about it! 

** is this a who you know thing? Maybe you hang out with people that don't blink at new sails every few years and new rigging every 10 and I know a bunch of people that are lucky if their boats get new bottom paint every few years :rolleyes:

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I'm not a rigger nor a metallurgist or a materials engineer but I think 10 years of "normal" inshore/coastal sailing (vs hard racing or hard, continuous blue water sailing) with quality components and wire is excessive and paranoid.

15-20 years is "prudent."

30 years is "you should really do this"

40 years is "You're nuts. You're taking your life into your hands at this point."

Part of the issue is the climate. Is water wicking down into the lower fittings? Do you experience a hard winter where freezing could crack and split the lower swages?  When I bought my Pearson 30, the turnbuckles couldn't be adjusted because the threads were galled. I had VISIBLE hairline cracks in several lower swages. I found these defects on my own, without a professional. That was what prompted me to replace everything.

Again, I couldn't afford to unstep the mast or hire a professional so I did everything myself with Hayn Hi-Mod compression fittings and a spool of wire bought from a rigger. Evans Starzinger graciously climbed my mast and we replaced each stay "in situ."  It worked out perfectly and I'd do it the same way again. If anything, it'll be easier on my Tartan 33 because all you have to do is hook the T-fittings into the slots on the mast instead of faffing about with hounds, clevis pins and cotter pins.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

I'm not a rigger nor a metallurgist or a materials engineer but I think 10 years of "normal" inshore/coastal sailing (vs hard racing or hard, continuous blue water sailing) with quality components and wire is excessive and paranoid.

15-20 years is "prudent."

30 years is "you should really do this"

40 years is "You're nuts. You're taking your life into your hands at this point."

Part of the issue is the climate. Is water wicking down into the lower fittings? Do you experience a hard winter where freezing could crack and split the lower swages?  When I bought my Pearson 30, the turnbuckles couldn't be adjusted because the threads were galled. I had VISIBLE hairline cracks in several lower swages. I found these defects on my own, without a professional. That was what prompted me to replace everything.

Again, I couldn't afford to unstep the mast or hire a professional so I did everything myself with Hayn Hi-Mod compression fittings and a spool of wire bought from a rigger. Evans Starzinger graciously climbed my mast and we replaced each stay "in situ."  It worked out perfectly and I'd do it the same way again. If anything, it'll be easier on my Tartan 33 because all you have to do is hook the T-fittings into the slots on the mast instead of faffing about with hounds, clevis pins and cotter pins.

Sorry , you are wrong 

Eight year broken old collet 

 

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92A943F7-7B8E-44D5-BA9B-BF3E3F2D24D8.png

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And I can break one that is brand new if you give me the right conditions. What’s your point?

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5 hours ago, Elegua said:

I'd think that would set you up for insurance heartbreak if you didn't replace and then something did happen? 

Yet it’s a risk I’ve seen people take more than you’d think. Insurance companies don’t know about the rig inspection. Honestly I don’t get it, but it happens. 

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Masts stay in around here, my mast was out exactly one time in 47 years because I had to fix the mast step, otherwise it would be 0. My business back in the day had a lot of the lower end customers, so I know first hand there is a vast fleet out there that is not getting anything fixed in advance! I would think anyone getting a rigging survey that showed defects better hope their insurance company NEVER finds out about it! 

** is this a who you know thing? Maybe you hang out with people that don't blink at new sails every few years and new rigging every 10 and I know a bunch of people that are lucky if their boats get new bottom paint every few years :rolleyes:

Sure regional differences apply. But the owner who is told they need to replace the running rigging year in year out because the cover is shedding something wicked yet never does anything is in all parts. 
 

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Canadian Southwest - we get so much rain (so rigging swages are always rinsed) + generally light wind sailing (so less stress on rigs) that never to 20 or 30 year replacement cycle seems common.

I suspect the racing fleet, running higher shroud and stay tensions, do replace more frequently.

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I'm not sure about The States, but in Australia no rigger will sign off on rigging, rod or wire, more than 10 years old, if only for their Professional Indemnity insurance reasons. Call the up & tell them it's 10 years old, they'll tell you to change it over the phone.

Sure, insurance companies are a bit quiet on rig surveys, but in the fine print "regular inspections by a qualified professional" are stipulated. So 10 years it is if you get regular inspections to keep rig insurance cover.

The way one of the major insurers works is if the rig drops the first year with new rigging they pay 90%. Second year 80%. 3rd year 70% and so on. If it drops on year 10 you get nothing!

One thing to also consider is if your rig is effectively uninsured after 10 years, you're also not covered for any "consequential damage" (sails, nav gear, topside damage, lifelines etc.) caused by dropping the rig.

YMMV.

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Seems like if you care about your boat, then you would look into replacements as needed or advised.  There are no guarantees especially as the years accumulate.  We've all seen it before, boat breaks rig, too expensive to fix, boat goes away.  It costs a lot more to replace it when it is either lost overboard or a pile of debris on the deck than it does to do the updates/maintenance in a controlled/planned environment.

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1 hour ago, charisma94 said:

I'm not sure about The States, but in Australia no rigger will sign off on rigging, rod or wire, more than 10 years old, if only for their Professional Indemnity insurance reasons. Call the up & tell them it's 10 years old, they'll tell you to change it over the phone.

Sure, insurance companies are a bit quiet on rig surveys, but in the fine print "regular inspections by a qualified professional" are stipulated. So 10 years it is if you get regular inspections to keep rig insurance cover.

The way one of the major insurers works is if the rig drops the first year with new rigging they pay 90%. Second year 80%. 3rd year 70% and so on. If it drops on year 10 you get nothing!

One thing to also consider is if your rig is effectively uninsured after 10 years, you're also not covered for any "consequential damage" (sails, nav gear, topside damage, lifelines etc.) caused by dropping the rig.

YMMV.

My insurance company and various surveyors have never said anything about the rigging ever and never asked about it either.

I can say that the number of 40 year-old boats going in for their fourth re-rig around here is probably 0.0% or maybe less.

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ExOmo has nailed it IMHO.

I would lose every second of any enjoyment going for a sail with friends or family with 40yo rigging. Tick tick tick...

@kent_island_sailor Have YOU ever asked a surveyor or insurance company whether your rig is insured at 40 years old? I dare you...

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My rig isn't 40 years old*, so that would be bit pointless, but my insurance has always covered the entire boat, including the rig, and every surveyor has not said a word about it. They'll go around looking for obvious stuff like corroded chainplates, but none of them ever climbed the mast. I don't know if they even figured out the rigging isn't the same age as the boat.

* thanks to major incompetence at a boatyard, no part of my rigging is original.

This thread is about OTHER old boats that mainly seem to be 100% as rigged at the factory ;)

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5 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My rig isn't 40 years old*, so that would be bit pointless, but my insurance has always covered the entire boat, including the rig, and every surveyor has not said a word about it. They'll go around looking for obvious stuff like corroded chainplates, but none of them ever climbed the mast. I don't know if they even figured out the rigging isn't the same age as the boat.

* thanks to major incompetence at a boatyard, no part of my rigging is original.

This thread is about OTHER old boats that mainly seem to be 100% as rigged at the factory ;)

It's the same here, insurers and surveyors don't ask... Agree. Until it drops, then if you don't have receipts for regular inspections from a qualified rigger (not a surveyor) the claim is denied. I've seen it happen plenty.

Go on, ask your insurer if they cover rigs over 10yo. Just for the exercise, don't ask your insurer if you're worried, call their competition as for a quote and ask about their rig policy. Lotta work I know, but it would be interesting, no?

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In the USA it would be a huge lawsuit if an insurance company invented a new rule on the spot about paying claims that was not in the written policy.

* actually what I have seen with old boats is the reverse problem, the insurance company throws up their hands and pays off the claim for a total loss, they don't want do deal with paying for a new rig.

** or if you still have BOATUS insurance on an old boat they won't pay for anything, but you can figure that out by reading the policy ;)

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

In the USA it would be a huge lawsuit if an insurance company invented a new rule on the spot about paying claims that was not in the written policy.

* actually what I have seen with old boats is the reverse problem, the insurance company throws up their hands and pays off the claim for a total loss, they don't want do deal with paying for a new rig.

** or if you still have BOATUS insurance on an old boat they won't pay for anything, but you can figure that out by reading the policy ;)

Because I’ve repowered, repainted and re-rigged, + all new electric + etc I’m getting a re-survey so as to increase the write off value of the boat. In case my rig falls down!

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You see it everyday walking the docks or out in a harbor, people don't maintain their boats.  Why?  Who knows but you also see houses with rotten roofs and blue tarps.  Replacing standing and running rigging is maintenance 

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29 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

OK - do an experiment. Find a used boat 31+ years old on her third set of standing rigging or a 41+ year old boat on her fourth. Just one will do.

My boat is an even 30. This is at least her 3rd set of rod.

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21 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

My boat is an even 30. This is at least her 3rd set of rod.

Mine is coming up to 40... She will get her 4th set of new rigging over the winter.

So there's 2.

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10 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

In the USA it would be a huge lawsuit if an insurance company invented a new rule on the spot about paying claims that was not in the written policy.

* actually what I have seen with old boats is the reverse problem, the insurance company throws up their hands and pays off the claim for a total loss, they don't want do deal with paying for a new rig.

** or if you still have BOATUS insurance on an old boat they won't pay for anything, but you can figure that out by reading the policy ;)

Again, I'm not in the US so I accept there could be differences.

But, this isn't an "invented new rule", it's in the policy disclosure with terms like "regular inspections by a qualified professional", or "maintained in a seaworthy condition", "fit for purpose", "well maintained"... On and on it goes. It'd be up to the insurer to determine whether those conditions have been met, not some old salt's interpretation that suits his budget. I can't see how someone dropping a 40yo rig can go with a straight face to the insurer & say their boat was in a "seaworthy condition", "fit for purpose", "well maintained". Down here, they'd laugh at you and close the claim file, stamped DECLINED in big red letters.

* Never, ever, ever "seen" this attitude from a marine insurer. Quite the opposite in fact. Never heard of an insurer paying for anything they aren't liable for... Great business model if they do.  But you have your experiences and I have mine.

** (Not familiar with BOATUS but) You're agreeing with my second para above essentially, "by reading the policy."

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I want to thank everyone that weighed in here, I have some good info for examining used boats now. I never really dealt with anything but wire and I can do that myself more or less.

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We are always given 2 different prices for insurance for the Bermuda whoopees, boat or boat + rig. We always take the boat + rig.

You guys have scared me enough. All rod will be reheaded or replaced, as appropriate, this winter. 

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The first time we did Bermuda the extra insurance was $50. The company was a bit annoyed when asked when to start the rider and we said "Now, we already passed Norfolk". It had kind of got lost in the shuffle :lol:

It went up a LOT after that when they started getting claims for torn up sails to the point it was significantly cheaper to get a rider for the USVI, stop at Bermuda, and forget to keep going than just ask for Bermuda. That trick only worked if the dates didn't overlap any races though ;) It actually never occurred to me you could claim a sail unless someone stole it.

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